Originally posted by TwystedWiz

Originally posted by markoraos

Originally posted by TwystedWiz

Originally posted by teco221

As I said in another post, I am still playin Chinese verison of Aion, I believe it's still 1.1 or 1.0.  1.2 will be out on 7/19 for China.

 

So far I enjoy this game very much for PvE part, still have not had a chance to try PvP yet, I am a level 28 Cleric.  The problem I think would be a major turn off for Western players are "Death Penalty" and "Need money to cure for XP".  At lower level, it was not a big problem for me since I didn't die too often.  As I level up higher and I needed to group for group quests, I found that I die easily.  Sometimes I die 6 or 7 times in an hour which equal to about 100k to cure all lost xp and pretty much would wipe out 2 or 3 hours solo questing or grinding.  Personally, I have no problem, it's a way to weed out weaker players.  

 

If Aion wants to capture more players, they might need to remove that or reduce the penalty.  At current level, I think majority of people would quit around 30 because Ice Claw area is a major pain and Key of Abyss mission is very tough if people are trying to do it at level 27.If you die to a player, you do not loss XP, only apply to PvE or death taxi players. :P

I wonder if they would change that for NA version or maybe in 1.5 patch would change to lower the cost.  Again, I have no idea what's in 1.5.  I have only read some in4 from other websites about new dungeons and gears.

 

 

"Another problem I have found that might turn players away..."

 

Another "problem"?  Why is that a "problem"???  You die, there's a penalty, what's the problem?  This is how it SHOULD BE.

 

The biggest problem is with all the people out with their magnifying glasses and tweezers looking for "problems".

 

Hush child.

It is not all about you. The grown ups are talking about the impact of having a larger "stick" compared to the "carrot" at one point of the gameplay experience. If the game nominally wants to promote a certain type of behavior - PvP - and yet it seems that that very same behavior gets statistically punished at one point then we have a serious problem. It is not all about you being uber and wtfpwning everybody so you don't care. It is about you not having anybody to fight because the rest of the noobs actually play with their own stinky base interests in mind unlike you who is so wtfpwning uber and heroic. You won't be able to find anybody of high AP rank in PvP because they'll be all afraid of loosing their APs due to excessively high death penalties.

 

Haha, "child"?  Nice try...   I always find it conducive to continued dialog when you start your response out with an insult.  Your failed attempt at demeaning me personally does not make my response any less accurate or relevant.  Apparently your objective is to not be taken seriously?  (And, btw, I probably have hairs on my nutsack that are older than you.)

Now, in response to the drivel in your poorly thought out, and written post...

No, it's not all about me, and it's certainly not all about you.  I am playing the game the way it is.  You will not find, in any forum, a post by me whining that it's not the way I want it to be, or making non-issues into "problems".

Not sure why you feel so threatened either?  I never said I was uber or heroic,  and I didn't say anything about "wtfpwning" (and you call me child?) anyone?  Because I want a game that takes some skill to play, and has at least a little tiny penalty for failure I am uber or heroic, out to "wtfpwn" the world (your word, not mine)?  It's not easy enough for you that you can buy your way out of it?  Should there be no penalty?  How much is enough to discourage bad play?  If the penalty is irrelevant, why have it?  You only incur the penalty for failure.  Oh, wait, now I am beginning to see why you might have a problem...  ;)

I don't hear "grown ups" talking about the impact of carrots and sticks in this thread, I hear little kids whining that "it's too hard, if I die it might take too long to get my new toys".  Because really, that is all that's at risk here, new toys in a game.  Fk the carrot, greedy people are motivated by carrots.  Give me the stick!  Carrot and stick my ass, I can't kill anything with a carrot...

You are concerned about a NON-issue.  There will be plenty of people to fight.  Lots of skilled, talented people who won't be whimpering in the corner because they don't want to risk their precious AP or kinah (sp).  If they incur a penalty they will go farm or whatever it is they do, pay it off, and get back to playing the game, THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE.  Please don't cry when you incur an almost meaningless penalty that is a direct result of your incompetence.  And please don't beg the developers to make the game easier because you are unable to play at the requisite level.

 

Now, go sit in the corner with your carrot or I'll beat you with my stick. 

 

You are simply naive. People play games to "win" and in this case it means get as much AP as fast and as safe as possible. If you think that the majority of players are going to purposefully play to loose in order to be chivalric, honorable or whatever then you really live in a beautiful fantasy world that has no semblance to reality whatsoever. And reality is what counts, even in games.

Originally posted by Wootson

Death penalty ala Final Fantasy XI in PvE: no problem with that! Rewards for being great, penalties for being a dumbass. How it should be.

 

Death penalty ala Final Fantasy XI in PvP: WTF!

 

Seriously, everytime I die I get ripped EXP? Uhm, OK... Actually, it's not OK! It kinda sucks. Big time!

 

I go out to level till lets say level 47. After that I encounter some level 50 jerk who woops my ass, and get all my (hard earned) EXP thrown away in the garbage. Hooray! Maybe I even delevel like in FFXI... (don't know if this is included in Aion though). So being a dumbass at PvP rewards you with being thrown back to start in the end. Yeah, that'll be great.

 

These mechanics will only be positive to those who gank everybody in their sight who is weaker than they are. Play safe, own weak people! Yeaaaaah!! :(

There is no XP penalty for a straight up PK.  You can only lose AP by getting killed by a player (unless a mob gets the killing blow).  And, the amount of AP is determined by level differences so if a 50 kills you he won't get much and you won't lose as much as losing to someone of your own level.  And, if he kills you for three days straight you can't delevel.  But, since you rez somewhere completely different the odds of getting "camped" are nil.  You'd have to go looking for him.

This is why I hate these threads about hypothetical "problems".  People don't understand how the game works yet, they come here looking for answers, and find BS threads about perceived "problems". 

Originally posted by markoraos

Originally posted by TwystedWiz

Originally posted by markoraos

Originally posted by TwystedWiz

Originally posted by teco221

As I said in another post, I am still playin Chinese verison of Aion, I believe it's still 1.1 or 1.0.  1.2 will be out on 7/19 for China.

 

So far I enjoy this game very much for PvE part, still have not had a chance to try PvP yet, I am a level 28 Cleric.  The problem I think would be a major turn off for Western players are "Death Penalty" and "Need money to cure for XP".  At lower level, it was not a big problem for me since I didn't die too often.  As I level up higher and I needed to group for group quests, I found that I die easily.  Sometimes I die 6 or 7 times in an hour which equal to about 100k to cure all lost xp and pretty much would wipe out 2 or 3 hours solo questing or grinding.  Personally, I have no problem, it's a way to weed out weaker players.  

 

If Aion wants to capture more players, they might need to remove that or reduce the penalty.  At current level, I think majority of people would quit around 30 because Ice Claw area is a major pain and Key of Abyss mission is very tough if people are trying to do it at level 27.If you die to a player, you do not loss XP, only apply to PvE or death taxi players. :P

I wonder if they would change that for NA version or maybe in 1.5 patch would change to lower the cost.  Again, I have no idea what's in 1.5.  I have only read some in4 from other websites about new dungeons and gears.

 

 

"Another problem I have found that might turn players away..."

 

Another "problem"?  Why is that a "problem"???  You die, there's a penalty, what's the problem?  This is how it SHOULD BE.

 

The biggest problem is with all the people out with their magnifying glasses and tweezers looking for "problems".

 

Hush child.

It is not all about you. The grown ups are talking about the impact of having a larger "stick" compared to the "carrot" at one point of the gameplay experience. If the game nominally wants to promote a certain type of behavior - PvP - and yet it seems that that very same behavior gets statistically punished at one point then we have a serious problem. It is not all about you being uber and wtfpwning everybody so you don't care. It is about you not having anybody to fight because the rest of the noobs actually play with their own stinky base interests in mind unlike you who is so wtfpwning uber and heroic. You won't be able to find anybody of high AP rank in PvP because they'll be all afraid of loosing their APs due to excessively high death penalties.

 

Haha, "child"?  Nice try...   I always find it conducive to continued dialog when you start your response out with an insult.  Your failed attempt at demeaning me personally does not make my response any less accurate or relevant.  Apparently your objective is to not be taken seriously?  (And, btw, I probably have hairs on my nutsack that are older than you.)

Now, in response to the drivel in your poorly thought out, and written post...

No, it's not all about me, and it's certainly not all about you.  I am playing the game the way it is.  You will not find, in any forum, a post by me whining that it's not the way I want it to be, or making non-issues into "problems".

Not sure why you feel so threatened either?  I never said I was uber or heroic,  and I didn't say anything about "wtfpwning" (and you call me child?) anyone?  Because I want a game that takes some skill to play, and has at least a little tiny penalty for failure I am uber or heroic, out to "wtfpwn" the world (your word, not mine)?  It's not easy enough for you that you can buy your way out of it?  Should there be no penalty?  How much is enough to discourage bad play?  If the penalty is irrelevant, why have it?  You only incur the penalty for failure.  Oh, wait, now I am beginning to see why you might have a problem...  ;)

I don't hear "grown ups" talking about the impact of carrots and sticks in this thread, I hear little kids whining that "it's too hard, if I die it might take too long to get my new toys".  Because really, that is all that's at risk here, new toys in a game.  Fk the carrot, greedy people are motivated by carrots.  Give me the stick!  Carrot and stick my ass, I can't kill anything with a carrot...

You are concerned about a NON-issue.  There will be plenty of people to fight.  Lots of skilled, talented people who won't be whimpering in the corner because they don't want to risk their precious AP or kinah (sp).  If they incur a penalty they will go farm or whatever it is they do, pay it off, and get back to playing the game, THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE.  Please don't cry when you incur an almost meaningless penalty that is a direct result of your incompetence.  And please don't beg the developers to make the game easier because you are unable to play at the requisite level.

 

Now, go sit in the corner with your carrot or I'll beat you with my stick. 

 

 

You are simply naive. People play games to "win" and in this case it means get as much AP as fast and as safe as possible. If you think that the majority of players are going to purposefully play to loose in order to be chivalric, honorable or whatever then you really live in a beautiful fantasy world that has no semblance to reality whatsoever. And reality is what counts, even in games.

Some people only play games to win, that is true.  The people who only play to win are usually the ones you see whining in the forums and crying the loudest when things don't go their way.  And this is not directed at you.  I don't think those people are necessarily the majority, just the loudest.

Some people play because they enjoy the game.  It doesn't bother them that it might take a little longer because they made a mistake, they pay for their mistake and move on.  Because they enjoy playing the game.  It doesn't bother them if something makes them play more because they enjoy playing the game for what it is.  Just a game.  And, pretty much regardless of what happens in game, you won't see them complaining about it in the forums.  Because they enjoy playing the game.  If you like frogs a few warts aren't going to bother ya, right?

I certainly don't think players are going to play to lose, whether it's chivalrous, honorable, or whatever.  And I'm not sure what I said to lead you to believe I meant anything like that?  Am I an honorable player?  You bet.  Do I think losing on purpose makes me honorable?  Not on your life.

I understand that for some people it's all about the rewards, for me, playing the game is the reward, all the other stuff is phooph.  I enjoy the mechanics, the worlds, the combat, all the little parts and pieces that make up the game, and the people.  Getting to max level, or getting cool toys, is just something that happens as a result of playing the game.  It should never be the reason for playing the game.  That makes it too much like work.  Perhaps that is what I am missing, I don't see something that makes me do what I wanted to do in the first place, play the game, play the game even more as a bad thing.  That's a win in my book!

I am not naive, I am not sure why you have this fixation on painting me as somehow younger or less experienced than you.  I can assure you that nothing could be further from the truth, trust me on this ok?  ;)

I have played many MMO's from beta through max level, for over a decade now.  I have seen how some people are, repeatedly.  I played WAR for god's sake, it doesn't get much cheaper than the RvR Renown train.  But in most cases, especially in WAR's case, it is due to bad design.  From what I have seen so far, there is no mechanic in Aion that promotes that kind of play.

Ultimately, people are what make these games good or bad.  I would prefer to think, going in at least, that people are going to enjoy playing the game because it's just that much fun, not just for the cool toys.  Time will tell, but I would prefer to approach it that way and end up being wrong than just assume the community is going to suck and be right.

I've said pretty much all I have to say.  I hope you all can devise a solution to all of Aion's "problems" and find a way to enjoy the game.  So far, it's been a blast to me.  See ya in CB4.

Originally posted by TwystedWiz

Some people only play games to win, that is true.  The people who only play to win are usually the ones you see whining in the forums and crying the loudest when things don't go their way.  And this is not directed at you.  I don't think those people are necessarily the majority, just the loudest.

 

Some people play because they enjoy the game.  It doesn't bother them that it might take a little longer because they made a mistake, they pay for their mistake and move on.  Because they enjoy playing the game.  It doesn't bother them if something makes them play more because they enjoy playing the game for what it is.  Just a game.  And, pretty much regardless of what happens in game, you won't see them complaining about it in the forums.  Because they enjoy playing the game.  If you like frogs a few warts aren't going to bother ya, right?

 

I certainly don't think players are going to play to lose, whether it's chivalrous, honorable, or whatever.  And I'm not sure what I said to lead you to believe I meant anything like that?  Am I an honorable player?  You bet.  Do I think losing on purpose makes me honorable?  Not on your life.

 

I understand that for some people it's all about the rewards, for me, playing the game is the reward, all the other stuff is phooph.  I enjoy the mechanics, the worlds, the combat, all the little parts and pieces that make up the game, and the people.  Getting to max level, or getting cool toys, is just something that happens as a result of playing the game.  It should never be the reason for playing the game.  That makes it too much like work.  Perhaps that is what I am missing, I don't see something that makes me do what I wanted to do in the first place, play the game, play the game even more as a bad thing.  That's a win in my book!

 

I am not naive, I am not sure why you have this fixation on painting me as somehow younger or less experienced than you.  I can assure you that nothing could be further from the truth, trust me on this ok?  ;)

I have played many MMO's from beta through max level, for over a decade now.  I have seen how some people are, repeatedly.  I played WAR for god's sake, it doesn't get much cheaper than the RvR Renown train.  But in most cases, especially in WAR's case, it is due to bad design.  From what I have seen so far, there is no mechanic in Aion that promotes that kind of play.

 

Ultimately, people are what make these games good or bad.  I would prefer to think, going in at least, that people are going to enjoy playing the game because it's just that much fun, not just for the cool toys.  Time will tell, but I would prefer to approach it that way and end up being wrong than just assume the community is going to suck and be right.

 

I've said pretty much all I have to say.  I hope you all can devise a solution to all of Aion's "problems" and find a way to enjoy the game.  So far, it's been a blast to me.  See ya in CB4.

I'm sorry but this really isn't about how we like to play games or what kind of persons we are. It is very very very simple. If a game supports one mode of play over another, primarily in terms of rewards and punshment,  then a simple process of evolution is going to make this "superior" mode of play eventually dominant whether we like it or not. That's like the law of gravity and there is no escaping it.

I'll give you an example with the simple "Somebody else" game which clearly demonstrates how individual death penalties destroy rather than enhance group play.

Say you have a bunch of characters about to go into a dangerous situation. Someone has to go first and that someone has the highest chance of getting killed and thus penalized personally. We can start with an assumption that everybody starts with varying degrees of altruism. The most altruistic one will go first and thus has the highest chance of dying. The least altruistic guy has the best chance of getting out of the encounter with maximum rewards and least penalties. This means that the most altruistic guy gets less and less powerful and thus useful to the group and so after a number of iterations he is the weakest member of the group. At this moment he starts thinking "dang, why should I be the patsy? Let somebody else do it. And besides I'm to weak now and even if I had a chance of making it earlier now I'm certain ill die." He then makes room for the second most altruistic guy who gets progressively weaker and weaker.... So in the end there are no altruists in the group - just a bunch of selfish sociopaths all angling for personal gain and pushing each other to the front so they're not the one to die and suffer penalty.

Actually if you want to destroy a community you present it with a situation that is conductive to "go first - somebody else". That's one of the prime psyops techniques used for divide-and-conquer pacification and neutralization of hostile societies and it was cheerfully used by many historical conquerors although the Romans were the first to really perfect it and even put it down in writing.

I've seen it happen a thousand times in group-based games and in RL situations. I'm really sceptical that Aion is such a special game that it will escape this and other similar mechanisms. Our well wishing and happy thoughts can't change this.

I still think you're analyzing this entire risk vs reward thing way too in depth. First of all I can look at previous MMOs to see that a risk vs reward model works. Look at Lineage II, for example. That game has a lot of risk for dying and little reward for winning. Even despite of this, however, players still PvP daily in it, get into massive clan battles, fight over leveling spots and participate in sieges. And this is a lot worse than Aion's death penalty by a long shot.

One of the things you're also trying to forget about here is just how much are you going to lose (AP wise) when you die to a player? Clearly if you lost a lot than players would probably shelter themselves or fight more carefully. But what if the penalty isn't as harsh as you think, and only serves to discourage repeatedly zerging the same target without any hope of winning. (Which is something that needs to be thought of, especially considering how shitty WoW World PvP was when your enemy just kept respawning back to try and kill you again every 2 minutes, being a complete nuisance even though you beat them 10 times before). Still I don't think that we need to worry ourselves with what the risk to reward ratio is, but we can talk about various outcomes.

The way I see it is that there is more rewards than just AP for winning a PvP battle. For one, most of the PvP is taking place in the abyss which is PvPvE focused. Winning a good PvP battle might mean you get your shot at a certain world boss, or set of good mobs to farm. We need to remember that this game is at it's core very group based for PvP so even then viewing fights as just 1v1 encounters doesn't work well.

Of course I'm not entirely sure (and I don't think you are either) on the intricacies of how the abyss point system works. I think it's something we're going to have to see before trying to get analytical about it, because all you have to go off of right now are hypothetical situations and scenarios.

---

Originally posted by TwystedWiz

---

Originally posted by Wootson

Death penalty ala Final Fantasy XI in PvE: no problem with that! Rewards for being great, penalties for being a dumbass. How it should be.
 
Death penalty ala Final Fantasy XI in PvP: WTF!
 
Seriously, everytime I die I get ripped EXP? Uhm, OK... Actually, it's not OK! It kinda sucks. Big time!
 
I go out to level till lets say level 47. After that I encounter some level 50 jerk who woops my ass, and get all my (hard earned) EXP thrown away in the garbage. Hooray! Maybe I even delevel like in FFXI... (don't know if this is included in Aion though). So being a dumbass at PvP rewards you with being thrown back to start in the end. Yeah, that'll be great.
 
These mechanics will only be positive to those who gank everybody in their sight who is weaker than they are. Play safe, own weak people! Yeaaaaah!! :(

---

 
There is no XP penalty for a straight up PK.  You can only lose AP by getting killed by a player (unless a mob gets the killing blow).  And, the amount of AP is determined by level differences so if a 50 kills you he won't get much and you won't lose as much as losing to someone of your own level.  And, if he kills you for three days straight you can't delevel.  But, since you rez somewhere completely different the odds of getting "camped" are nil.  You'd have to go looking for him.
This is why I hate these threads about hypothetical "problems".  People don't understand how the game works yet, they come here looking for answers, and find BS threads about perceived "problems". 

---

Of course my reaction was only a suggestion as to how I would not like to see it in Aion (or any other video game). Truth be told, I don't know how this all works yet. People who played the Korean and Chinese versions of the game may know these things, but these things may as well be changed to something else for the NA and EU versions of the game.

We'll see how this works out in September, and the period after that.

Originally posted by Ryonox

rather than seeing this as bad thing, I see it as an incentive for the community not to suck. $0.02

I agree 100%.  If people are fed at lower levels when they reach end game they are usually so confused and so lost and people that group with them are very fustrated a lot of the time.  They need to get used to using there brains at lower levels so at higher levels there not clueless wonders :)

Ok, here's direct info on different "playing styles" at different AP levels from a Korean Aion player:

*Rank9 Soldier~ Rank1 Soldier – Rambo mode
You have nothing to fear. PIck the most croweded places to run around in. This is probably the best moments of your Aion pvp career. I didn’t run unless it went past 3v1.
I started off as Rank1 soldier and got to 2star Lieut in a day. I think I earned 169,296 there. I live streamed the whole thing.

*1star Lieut ~ 3star Lieut – A little more conservative. Guerilla time
Once you get that star, you start to change your style to guerilla warfare.
You know, hide by a frequently used roads and ambush or lure high rank players so you can fight them 1v1 some where else. If someone keeps chasing you, then keep running.

*4star Lieut – Now – Opportunist
Never. Ever. Strike unless you feel that you ahve 100% chance of winning. 95% isn’t good enough. The risk isn’t worth it.
Most AP you get at this level is from quests. I think I’m getting around 10k~30k per day now.

This looks pretty catastrophic to me. Basically the game FORCES you to gank at higher AP rank levels. "Never ever strike unless you feel that you have 100% chance of winning. 95% isn't good enough." This sounds horrible. No more heroics, no more happy PvPing for you bud. Go do quests and maybe, just MAYBE attack someone when you're 100% sure the poor sod has no chance whatsoever.

Imo Aion devs have to change this somehow because this is never EVER going to float in the western market. Westerners have a markedly less tolerance for any behavior they see as abusive and here we have a mechanic that FORCES high AP players to gank lowbies.

Originally posted by markoraos

Ok, here's direct info on different "playing styles" at different AP levels from a Korean Aion player:

*Rank9 Soldier~ Rank1 Soldier – Rambo mode
You have nothing to fear. PIck the most croweded places to run around in. This is probably the best moments of your Aion pvp career. I didn’t run unless it went past 3v1.
I started off as Rank1 soldier and got to 2star Lieut in a day. I think I earned 169,296 there. I live streamed the whole thing.

*1star Lieut ~ 3star Lieut – A little more conservative. Guerilla time
Once you get that star, you start to change your style to guerilla warfare.
You know, hide by a frequently used roads and ambush or lure high rank players so you can fight them 1v1 some where else. If someone keeps chasing you, then keep running.

*4star Lieut – Now – Opportunist
Never. Ever. Strike unless you feel that you ahve 100% chance of winning. 95% isn’t good enough. The risk isn’t worth it.
Most AP you get at this level is from quests. I think I’m getting around 10k~30k per day now.

 

This looks pretty catastrophic to me. Basically the game FORCES you to gank at higher AP rank levels. "Never ever strike unless you feel that you have 100% chance of winning. 95% isn't good enough." This sounds horrible. No more heroics, no more happy PvPing for you bud. Go do quests and maybe, just MAYBE attack someone when you're 100% sure the poor sod has no chance whatsoever.

Imo Aion devs have to change this somehow because this is never EVER going to float in the western market. Westerners have a markedly less tolerance for any behavior they see as abusive and here we have a mechanic that FORCES high AP players to gank lowbies.

It dusnt force you to gank low levels, it forces you to fight people of the same or higher rank.

Well you do lose points based on the AP level of who killed you and your AP level. So if you get killed by a low AP level person and you're high up there of course you're going to lose a lot of points. Then again why exactly are you going to die to someone with a crap AP level?

I don't know how it works for sure, but it seems like as more people get up to higher AP ranks it should keep going steady. I mean if you manage to power ahead of the rest of the players it might be more difficult, but most of the normal players will probably be around the same AP rank, or at least I think so.

Does anybody know if you lose AP/Ranks and such if you stop pvping for a while?

Originally posted by Leucrotta

Originally posted by markoraos

Ok, here's direct info on different "playing styles" at different AP levels from a Korean Aion player:

*Rank9 Soldier~ Rank1 Soldier – Rambo mode
You have nothing to fear. PIck the most croweded places to run around in. This is probably the best moments of your Aion pvp career. I didn’t run unless it went past 3v1.
I started off as Rank1 soldier and got to 2star Lieut in a day. I think I earned 169,296 there. I live streamed the whole thing.

*1star Lieut ~ 3star Lieut – A little more conservative. Guerilla time
Once you get that star, you start to change your style to guerilla warfare.
You know, hide by a frequently used roads and ambush or lure high rank players so you can fight them 1v1 some where else. If someone keeps chasing you, then keep running.

*4star Lieut – Now – Opportunist
Never. Ever. Strike unless you feel that you ahve 100% chance of winning. 95% isn’t good enough. The risk isn’t worth it.
Most AP you get at this level is from quests. I think I’m getting around 10k~30k per day now.

 

This looks pretty catastrophic to me. Basically the game FORCES you to gank at higher AP rank levels. "Never ever strike unless you feel that you have 100% chance of winning. 95% isn't good enough." This sounds horrible. No more heroics, no more happy PvPing for you bud. Go do quests and maybe, just MAYBE attack someone when you're 100% sure the poor sod has no chance whatsoever.

Imo Aion devs have to change this somehow because this is never EVER going to float in the western market. Westerners have a markedly less tolerance for any behavior they see as abusive and here we have a mechanic that FORCES high AP players to gank lowbies.

 

It dusnt force you to gank low levels, it forces you to fight people of the same or higher rank.

Gosh darn, haven't you just read what the korean guy just said? Let me repeati it for you "Never. Ever. Strike unless you feel that you ahve 100% chance of winning. 95% isn’t good enough. The risk isn’t worth it. Most AP you get at this level is from quests." That's the winning strategy that you need to adopt and 99% of the players will - the one percent of heroes will quickly loose their rank to AP loss.

Wishful thinking is not going to get you anywhere. At high AP ranks you'll be very hard pressed to find someone of your own rank. And why? Because a) there's very few of them on the server and b) they'll all be hiding grinding PvE quests for AP or ganking lowbies from the bushes.

Some things sound great when you first hear of them but the consequences might turn out to be the exact opposite from what your "gut" feeling told you. Harsh death penalties always promote cowardly, selfish play and it seems that Aion experience supports this opinion of mine.

Originally posted by markoraos

Originally posted by Leucrotta

Originally posted by markoraos

Ok, here's direct info on different "playing styles" at different AP levels from a Korean Aion player:

*Rank9 Soldier~ Rank1 Soldier – Rambo mode
You have nothing to fear. PIck the most croweded places to run around in. This is probably the best moments of your Aion pvp career. I didn’t run unless it went past 3v1.
I started off as Rank1 soldier and got to 2star Lieut in a day. I think I earned 169,296 there. I live streamed the whole thing.

*1star Lieut ~ 3star Lieut – A little more conservative. Guerilla time
Once you get that star, you start to change your style to guerilla warfare.
You know, hide by a frequently used roads and ambush or lure high rank players so you can fight them 1v1 some where else. If someone keeps chasing you, then keep running.

*4star Lieut – Now – Opportunist
Never. Ever. Strike unless you feel that you ahve 100% chance of winning. 95% isn’t good enough. The risk isn’t worth it.
Most AP you get at this level is from quests. I think I’m getting around 10k~30k per day now.

 

 

Did you even read your own quote? later levels wont change this.

You just have to be sure when to pick a fight.

And im not saying low level ganking wont happen because im sure it will.

Also not saying Aion has a perfect system.

Originally posted by markoraos

Originally posted by Leucrotta

Originally posted by markoraos

Ok, here's direct info on different "playing styles" at different AP levels from a Korean Aion player:

*Rank9 Soldier~ Rank1 Soldier – Rambo mode
You have nothing to fear. PIck the most croweded places to run around in. This is probably the best moments of your Aion pvp career. I didn’t run unless it went past 3v1.
I started off as Rank1 soldier and got to 2star Lieut in a day. I think I earned 169,296 there. I live streamed the whole thing.

*1star Lieut ~ 3star Lieut – A little more conservative. Guerilla time
Once you get that star, you start to change your style to guerilla warfare.
You know, hide by a frequently used roads and ambush or lure high rank players so you can fight them 1v1 some where else. If someone keeps chasing you, then keep running.

*4star Lieut – Now – Opportunist
Never. Ever. Strike unless you feel that you ahve 100% chance of winning. 95% isn’t good enough. The risk isn’t worth it.
Most AP you get at this level is from quests. I think I’m getting around 10k~30k per day now.

 

This looks pretty catastrophic to me. Basically the game FORCES you to gank at higher AP rank levels. "Never ever strike unless you feel that you have 100% chance of winning. 95% isn't good enough." This sounds horrible. No more heroics, no more happy PvPing for you bud. Go do quests and maybe, just MAYBE attack someone when you're 100% sure the poor sod has no chance whatsoever.

Imo Aion devs have to change this somehow because this is never EVER going to float in the western market. Westerners have a markedly less tolerance for any behavior they see as abusive and here we have a mechanic that FORCES high AP players to gank lowbies.

 

It dusnt force you to gank low levels, it forces you to fight people of the same or higher rank.

 

Gosh darn, haven't you just read what the korean guy just said? Let me repeati it for you "Never. Ever. Strike unless you feel that you ahve 100% chance of winning. 95% isn’t good enough. The risk isn’t worth it. Most AP you get at this level is from quests." That's the winning strategy that you need to adopt and 99% of the players will - the one percent of heroes will quickly loose their rank to AP loss.

Wishful thinking is not going to get you anywhere. At high AP ranks you'll be very hard pressed to find someone of your own rank. And why? Because a) there's very few of them on the server and b) they'll all be hiding grinding PvE quests for AP or ganking lowbies from the bushes.

Some things sound great when you first hear of them but the consequences might turn out to be the exact opposite from what your "gut" feeling told you. Harsh death penalties always promote cowardly, selfish play and it seems that Aion experience supports this opinion of mine.

I see where you come from, but you have to keep in mind that this Korean guy soloed his way to the top. This does not happen, ever. Of course he's going to resort to ganking and not attack until he's 100% sure, he played as a lone wolf to show that it's possible to play solo in Aion. As a group it's entirely different and isn't an issue, there's only one way to gain APs, and that's by killing enemies close to your own rank, and it goes without saying that this game is not solo friendly.

The second point is that this guy was aiming to the top. He wants to be the best. You cannot possibly lower the death penalty just to let every player and their grandmas gather infinite APs and buy the best gear, weapons, consumables etc. Even though it is kind to casual players, I for one would never want it to follow in the footsteps of WoW and WAR and become easy as pie.

You want to be the best? you got to play quite a bit, be extremely skilled, know your enemy well, and die very rarely. Risk vs Reward.

Originally posted by Electriceye 

I see where you come from, but you have to keep in mind that this Korean guy soloed his way to the top. This does not happen, ever. Of course he's going to resort to ganking and not attack until he's 100% sure, he played as a lone wolf to show that it's possible to play solo in Aion. As a group it's entirely different and isn't an issue, there's only one way to gain APs, and that's by killing enemies close to your own rank, and it goes without saying that this game is not solo friendly.

Nope, you can get APs by grinding PvE quests in Abyss as well. And as he said that is the only viable source of income at that rank. You are better off avoiding ANY risky situation... and grouping does not change that. If you play in a group for protection then you'll be using it to gank solo players and avoid fair fights with similarly sized groups because cost/reward makes it prohibitive.

The second point is that this guy was aiming to the top. He wants to be the best. You cannot possibly lower the death penalty just to let every player and their grandmas gather infinite APs and buy the best gear, weapons, consumables etc. Even though it is kind to casual players, I for one would never want it to follow in the footsteps of WoW and WAR and become easy as pie.

There are other ways of making high AP rank exclusive. For example you could put a AP debuff at each death which would prevent you from gaining APs for a certain time after death. This might lessen the sting. Then you could add a requirement where after a certain rank you need some kind of victory tokens which can be gained and lost in a fair fight in an arena - if you want to be the best of the best then prove it in a fair fight. Stuff like that. The problem with the system as it stands is that it purports to have a fair ranking system in an environment which is inherently unfair and chaotic (open RvR) which is completely illogical. You can't have what is basically an arena ranking system in an environment which is open and unreglulated.

It is as if we had a boxing match where the public is allowed to throw bottles at fighters.. and there is a lottery going on where winners can get into the ring to ally with one fighter or the other. While this might sound fun, this is not something you can base any kind of rankings on.

Don't you see how illogical and unfair this is? Open PvP is by its very nature chaotic and unpredictable and you are very very rarely in a fair fight. And that's precisely why I like it for its refreshing mayhem and unpredictablity. In such an environment punishing players for something that is not really their fault is completely unfair. However these are pretty delicate matters and I'm not really sure how I would go about solving them. However it is pretty obvious to me that there is a real dissonance in what we have now.

You want to be the best? you got to play quite a bit, be extremely skilled, know your enemy well, and die very rarely. Risk vs Reward.

Nope, you just have to PvE and gank carefully. Actual PvP skill has nothing to do with it in the long run because this is not an arena. You might be an uber skilled player with 20 victories in a row and you'll loose all that gains because your PC disconnected in a fight with some newb.. or you ran into a zerg, or the newb had a friend right around the corner. The system as it is now DOES NOT reward skillful PvP. What it rewards is sneaking and ganking.

Hmmm ... pugs are going to be nasty .... I wonder how that works out.

Imagine being a tank with a healer that does it's job bad .... the tank might be doing a good job, but still dies first !!

Do you also get a death penalty when ressurected by a player?

2 days till my first experience with Aion ... can't wait :)

Death penalty = win

Games without death penalty offer zero excitement because theres absolutely no risk in dieing EQ EQ2 Vanguard (first build) and early SWG I hated dieing and would go to every length possible to avoid it.

modern MMO's death penalties have sucked as there was just no risk to PVE so what you died you ran back but no xp hit or monetary hit for it.

Originally posted by thamighty213

Death penalty = win

 

Games without death penalty offer zero excitement because theres absolutely no risk in dieing EQ EQ2 Vanguard (first build) and early SWG I hated dieing and would go to every length possible to avoid it.

 

modern MMO's death penalties have sucked as there was just no risk to PVE so what you died you ran back but no xp hit or monetary hit for it.

Death penalty in PvE is ok and I have nothing against it, quite the opposite. Death penalties in PvP are a completely different matter.

There is a reason why the vast majority of online FPSs don't have death penalties. Just stop and think about it. You die much more often in PvP than in PvE and besides while you can argue it is always your fault in PvE in PvP, and especially open world PvP, it is something else entirely.

The bias mmorpg community generally has against PvP is due EXCLUSIVELY to death penalties "old-school" PvP mmos had. Think about it.

I think there should be a death penalty in PvP. In so many games i can just rush into 1 or 100 people of low or high rank and if i die i get the same penalty.... a "YOUR DEAD" screen.

I think if people are to take PvP serious in any MMO there needs to be a penalty as well as a reward. I have never played strategically  in pvp in any MMO due to the fact that me dying means nothing to me, i didnt lose anything.

Penalties in PvP make people think twice before they act and make people think up actual strategies so they can avoid the penalty, instead of there been no penalty and people just been able to become mindless and zerg everything.

Having said that though, i dont think the penalties should be too harsh. Players should be able to know that dying is not something to take lightly, but at the same time if they do die they shouldnt feel like they lost ALL their hard earned progress.

Oh well the discussion is getting old. You'll see in a few months when people start complaing about gankers in Aion. PvP death penalties = cautious play = ganking. There is no escaping it. It's always been like that and always will be. The higher the death penalties the more ganking there is and more painful it becomes. If that's your idea of thrill then you're more than welcome to it.