Originally posted by raytan

I complete red the main post of this thread. And I only have one thing to say. WOW has damaged very much to gamers world. Has created a new race of newbyes gamers that want to reach top lvl , and top stuff in 2 months. And want that pvp and figths be always predictable.

This is not wow, wow is an funny easy game, but this is aion, stop thinking that the games have to be like wow. Real mmorpg gamers hate WOW. WoW always have been a mmorpg to capricious gamers. Thats all!

Raytan!

Agree that using wow as an example is ratehr poor. DAOC would have been better imo.

I think all the OP has done is proven how threatend Warcraft fanbois are by Aion . This is such an obvious troll thread . I mean he did nt even have the guts to come on here under his main mmorpg.com account .

Well dont be worried Warcraft will always retain  the children that play it . Blizzard appear to have made a consious decision to aim the game at a very young audiance by making the game increasingly easier . Its a policy thats been very successful but because of it a lot of people like me left they game simply because we felt Blizzard had taken out a lot of the fun aspects of the game in favour of short term gain .  I enjoyed warcraft a lot in its first two years the battles we had around tauren mill and southshore were a lot of fun . I know a lot of players that currently play Warcraft that are really looking forward to Aion . It ll be great to have another mmorpg out there thats a huge success . OK  it may not be so good for Blizzard but they can afford to lose a few million players and maybe if Aion breaks its virtual manopoly they might actually start listening thier customers and start working harder for your buck . The way it may effect the hardcore WoW fans most is that they see a lot of thier friends spending time in Aion . I cant say i wont play WoW again but at present i m not missing it one iota I found the community to be increasingly like a virtual schoolyeard and community is nearly as important as gameplay for me in an mmo .

You forgot to say that WOTLK Arena and PvP is shit compared to TBC even with your "positive" changes. And yes, TBC was exactly the opposite of your "WoW's good parts": You could barely get a 1.5 sec cast spell if a rogue was on you, Macestun proc was amazingly annoying and RNG/RNG resistance talents were at home. And guess what? TBC was far better than the current PvP, where skillknights can insta-gib you in 3 gcds with no counter. So yeah...

*The Aion MMORPG.com forums successfully beats the stupid troll OP away, and as this is my Portal Day, I must celebrate*

This was a triumph,

I'm making a note here,

HUGE SUCCESS,

It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.......

*and so on and so forth*

WoW's pvp is shit, but this game's will prove to be far worse. You guys hated the High Warlord system, yet somehow this game's nearly identical ABYSS POINTS system is forgiveable?

Hey,

  I want to start off by saying, I read the entire post the OP put up. I agree with him 100%. Now that being said...allow me to elaborate. WOW's system works for WOW very well. For the type of people that enjoy mathmatic equations of perfecting combat through stat stacking. An example is 540 def or something to prevent being crit from raid bosses. Where is the fun in that? I mean honestly I would rather have the best gear and still have a challenge when I try to run an instance or pvp.

Now I enjoyed wow for what it was for the last 5 years or so. Honestly it was very boring for me, and lacked any real challenge, at least after TBC was nerfed the game went downhill fast for me. I enjoyed WOTLK because it was more an older style WOW environment however It was even easier then TBC. At that point for me WOW failed.

Now Im not going to say Aion is better then WOW or the other way around. Aion offers something that I have been looking for, for a very long time. That is a challenge, I want to earn my keep in an MMO, and one thing i think that modern MMO's needed was a valid death penalty. EQ got it 100% right when they forced you to loose exp and levels when you died. That prevented players from treating the game with no respect by not having consequences. Dont talk about wow's death penalty because they didnt have one, durability reduction was useless because the dailies and items dropped gave you more than enough cash to avoid taking a serious hit.

RNG in Aion is sorely welcomed, WoW has dumbed down combat way too much for my tastes (again nothing against wow), where everything depended on which class is OP for that patch period. No wow players can argue, that every patch gave specific classes a huge advantage in pvp and pve. TBC was Stunlock rogues with maces, WOTLK with retadins 3 shotting people and DK's eating casters alive. And even pre-bc wow had its shaman eating paladins issue with their WF procs using 2 handers (how many ppl remember that?).

In close, I have played both games, and they cater to different people completely. For me, Aion is the game I have been waiting for since EQ. In fact Aion is my modern EQ, and I am happy to have seen it make its return. Not all wow players are idiots, and not all Aion players are rude. I hope that some of the WoW players will give Aion a shot instead of reading forum nonsense.

RNG is a really bad way of "adding challenge" becuase its about luck not about skill or tactics. Basiclly, instead of rng aion should have made a better combat and movement coding/engine and made alot of posistional, reactionary, situational, and other styles and abilities.

Originally posted by Jetrpg

RNG is a really bad way of "adding challenge" becuase its about luck not about skill or tactics. Basiclly, instead of rng aion should have made a better combat and movement coding/engine and made alot of posistional, reactionary, situational, and other styles and abilities.

From my understanding, RNG adds flavor to any game. That ofcourse is just me, and RNG requires more skill and tactics then non RNG. Again I feel that going into battle 25 vs 8 for example, Its nice that RNG gives the game to whoever can react the best under random circumstances. In reality nothing is guranteed, everything even things that are thought to be 100% are never 100%. Again its a player preference, as I said in my other post.

Nothing wrong with Non - RNG games, however they arent as challenging imho. There is nothing challenging about stun-locking your opponent 100% of the time when your 3 min cd's are up. Now, when they pop a trink and get out of that stun, and a random chaotic element is thrown into your equation, how you react is ultimately what skill really is. And you will know who has more skill...because one of you will walk away while the other is waiting for a 30 sec rez timer at the grave yard.

I think most of you missed his points, of which, from a decade+ of MMO experience I believe he has several valid ones.

Forget about the abysmal pvp in wow.  I loved XR and the original AV too.  The rest of it can get stuffed.  What Blizzard DID do right however was learn from its own mistakes in several ways, and continue to make improvements over years.

You can only balance classes in pvp within the control measures of the class itself.  An overabundance of variables like stacks of consumables makes fighting on an even field a joke.  Fine, argue the merits of randomness in LANDING x spell or hit vs. diminishing returns, or calculated counter measures, or whatever.  If that's all it was, it would just take getting used to.  But the fact is - you should be able to casually pvp and, if your SKILL is up there, you should be able to compete with people who have more playing time, period.  Having skills that require little or no movement to their variables is not good.  Being able to overpower another, not with a better set of gear you have earned, but with consumables that stack and require gold that only those with endless time on their hands can keep up with just turns pvp into a gold farming prerequisite fest.  That sorta takes the fun out of the competition.  

Save grinding for mats, tradeskills, lvling.  PvP should be able your individual skills, and your ability to work together with players on your side to out fight the opposing team.

Originally posted by MalikyeMoon

I think most of you missed his points, of which, from a decade+ of MMO experience I believe he has several valid ones.

Forget about the abysmal pvp in wow.  I loved XR and the original AV too.  The rest of it can get stuffed.  What Blizzard DID do right however was learn from its own mistakes in several ways, and continue to make improvements over years.

You can only balance classes in pvp within the control measures of the class itself.  An overabundance of variables like stacks of consumables makes fighting on an even field a joke.  Fine, argue the merits of randomness in LANDING x spell or hit vs. diminishing returns, or calculated counter measures, or whatever.  If that's all it was, it would just take getting used to.  But the fact is - you should be able to casually pvp and, if your SKILL is up there, you should be able to compete with people who have more playing time, period.  Having skills that require little or no movement to their variables is not good.  Being able to overpower another, not with a better set of gear you have earned, but with consumables that stack and require gold that only those with endless time on their hands can keep up with just turns pvp into a gold farming prerequisite fest.  That sorta takes the fun out of the competition.  

Save grinding for mats, tradeskills, lvling.  PvP should be able your individual skills, and your ability to work together with players on your side to out fight the opposing team.

but that does nt happen in wow the pvp is all zerg and kill as many of the opposing side as possible in the battlegrounds .the reason why wows pvp in them is so bad in the battlegrounds is that its a grind win or lose you know you ll get decent enough honor to buy whatever epics you want . why bother with learning tactics and having some fun interesting pvp when you know you can grind loses and get there almost as fast . same with the instances . just do them again and again till your lucky enough to get the drop for you and when you do what do you do with it ? theres no real world pvp anymore where the armor and weapons you have makes one itoa of difference .
 

that aside its funny this was ment to be a trolling thread but what comes across if anything it strengthens Aion as a game . i did nt expect a wowkiller but i m really starting to wonder now .

Originally posted by googajoob7

Originally posted by MalikyeMoon

I think most of you missed his points, of which, from a decade+ of MMO experience I believe he has several valid ones.

Forget about the abysmal pvp in wow.  I loved XR and the original AV too.  The rest of it can get stuffed.  What Blizzard DID do right however was learn from its own mistakes in several ways, and continue to make improvements over years.

You can only balance classes in pvp within the control measures of the class itself.  An overabundance of variables like stacks of consumables makes fighting on an even field a joke.  Fine, argue the merits of randomness in LANDING x spell or hit vs. diminishing returns, or calculated counter measures, or whatever.  If that's all it was, it would just take getting used to.  But the fact is - you should be able to casually pvp and, if your SKILL is up there, you should be able to compete with people who have more playing time, period.  Having skills that require little or no movement to their variables is not good.  Being able to overpower another, not with a better set of gear you have earned, but with consumables that stack and require gold that only those with endless time on their hands can keep up with just turns pvp into a gold farming prerequisite fest.  That sorta takes the fun out of the competition.  

Save grinding for mats, tradeskills, lvling.  PvP should be able your individual skills, and your ability to work together with players on your side to out fight the opposing team.

but that does nt happen in wow the pvp is all zerg and kill as many of the opposing side as possible in the battlegrounds .the reason why wows pvp in them is so bad in the battlegrounds is that its a grind win or lose you know you ll get decent enough honor to buy whatever epics you want . why bother with learning tactics and having some fun interesting pvp when you know you can grind loses and get there almost as fast . same with the instances . just do them again and again till your lucky enough to get the drop for you and when you do what do you do with it ? theres no real world pvp anymore where the armor and weapons you have makes one itoa of difference .
 

that aside its funny this was ment to be a trolling thread but what comes across if anything it strengthens Aion as a game . i did nt expect a wowkiller but i m really starting to wonder now .

I dont look for it to be a wow killer but it has to have better pvp than wow. And your right ive never seen more disorganized groups doing pvp than in wow. Will A'ion have any scenarios or battleground type pvp?

I hope not. Scenarios/battlegrounds is a sure way to kill open world PvP, even on totally packed servers. One of the major Aion attractions is the open world PvP, so I hope that the focus remains there.

The only thing I can think of that might be like a battleground is they have a PvP instance that melds PvP/PvE. (not talking about the abyss or anything). Was added in the 1.5 patch I think.

The nice thing about scenario type pvp is the convenience of grouping. Joining as a group is a nice option as well.

So, at first, the game is too much like WoW. And now, it isn't enough like WoW?

Go write a thesis (at release) and submit it as an article. Spare us the wall of text. Also, take the skill arguments over to an FPS forum and let them have at it. The argument of skill in an MMORPG has been beaten to death. If only the topic of FUN was discussed at similar length, we might actually have some better games on the horizon.

Originally posted by grandpagamer

I dont look for it to be a wow killer but it has to have better pvp than wow. And your right ive never seen more disorganized groups doing pvp than in wow. Will A'ion have any scenarios or battleground type pvp?

Aion is currently focused on RvR pvp. Aion uses the NPC faction to try and keep things from becoming too one sided.

That being said I do like pvp mini-games (AoC) / BGs & Arenas (WoW) because they do give you a fairly level playing field.

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

And since when is RNG a bad thing? Randomness is the best thing to MMO's since online gaming started. Who wants to play a guaranteed combat scenario? Where's the excitement in that? Before you know it, you get so caught up in your ROUTINE button mashing that you forget that you even have other abilities because you don't need them.

I was going to say the same exact thing.  Although, I understand what the poster is trying to say. DOn't let a computer decide our fate, the player's skills should decide. Ok fine, I get that. BUT, even in skill based mmo's like Ultima Online, sometimes luck played a huge part in victory or defeat.  Lets say a Macer was fighting a mage. The macer has hmm, 75% Magic resist and the Mage only has, hmm, 50% evade. The macer swings his Mace 3 times and somehow misses 3 times. The mage casts flamestrike and fireball twice each and hits all 4 times. The macer = dead. Well I'd say the mage got "lucky" since the Macer's magic resist was higher than the mage's evade but those percentages aren't 100% now are they? In the end, those numbers are still randomly generated by a "computer" but maybe not as bad as how you explain Aion's RNG..

Personally, I'm still willing to give the game a shot since the animations, combat system, and graphics all look pretty darn impressive.

 For me, it's going to come down to Mortal Online or Aion. Both have their own pro's and cons, but  Aion seems like it wil be much more fun.

Just like 5 years ago when the choice was EQ2 or WoW. I chose EQ2 because of the graphics and for being a long time EQ player, but I jumped ship a few months later and WoW turned out to be the more exciting product,, at the time..

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by googajoob7

Originally posted by MalikyeMoon

I think most of you missed his points, of which, from a decade+ of MMO experience I believe he has several valid ones.

Forget about the abysmal pvp in wow.  I loved XR and the original AV too.  The rest of it can get stuffed.  What Blizzard DID do right however was learn from its own mistakes in several ways, and continue to make improvements over years.

You can only balance classes in pvp within the control measures of the class itself.  An overabundance of variables like stacks of consumables makes fighting on an even field a joke.  Fine, argue the merits of randomness in LANDING x spell or hit vs. diminishing returns, or calculated counter measures, or whatever.  If that's all it was, it would just take getting used to.  But the fact is - you should be able to casually pvp and, if your SKILL is up there, you should be able to compete with people who have more playing time, period.  Having skills that require little or no movement to their variables is not good.  Being able to overpower another, not with a better set of gear you have earned, but with consumables that stack and require gold that only those with endless time on their hands can keep up with just turns pvp into a gold farming prerequisite fest.  That sorta takes the fun out of the competition.  

Save grinding for mats, tradeskills, lvling.  PvP should be able your individual skills, and your ability to work together with players on your side to out fight the opposing team.

but that does nt happen in wow the pvp is all zerg and kill as many of the opposing side as possible in the battlegrounds .the reason why wows pvp in them is so bad in the battlegrounds is that its a grind win or lose you know you ll get decent enough honor to buy whatever epics you want . why bother with learning tactics and having some fun interesting pvp when you know you can grind loses and get there almost as fast . same with the instances . just do them again and again till your lucky enough to get the drop for you and when you do what do you do with it ? theres no real world pvp anymore where the armor and weapons you have makes one itoa of difference .
 

that aside its funny this was ment to be a trolling thread but what comes across if anything it strengthens Aion as a game . i did nt expect a wowkiller but i m really starting to wonder now .

I dont look for it to be a wow killer but it has to have better pvp than wow. And your right ive never seen more disorganized groups doing pvp than in wow. Will A'ion have any scenarios or battleground type pvp?

i m not sure . i quite like pvp so it ll be great for players like me who dont want to grind the same old instances again and again or do the same old daily quests to get an item that ll be out of date within 2 years with the arrival of the next expansion . i m also hopeing for some interesting world pvp . warcraft actually did this quite well in its first couple of years shame it does nt anymore . its a shadow of its former self . i know alot of people did nt like its former self but i enjoyed it . with the gameplay becoming increasingly easy its a nice game for kids . i kind ve hope aion offers a better community . as long as the games quite successful and the server i m on it decent i really dont care if its the next warcraft or not to validate my choice of game . having said that if its good i hope it gets a few million playing it . it would be good for the mmo market . wow having a near manopoly on it is nt doing it any good at all .

The origional post was well presented, and thats about as far as it goes. WoW is all about rock paper scissors. You have counters for pretty much everything and if you dont know how to counter, your going to die.

You have rotations that anyone who is anyone will use to maximize damage output and a cookie cutter build that if you want to squeeze every drop out of your class, you follow... that is wow for you. No more, no less. wow indeed.

Aion dares to be differant and due to this, you create a post that is pretty much idiotic in its assumptions/description and comparison. You have not played past level 20 if you are in the CB as I am. You may be able to get to level 25 tommorow if you are in the CB.

Once you have played Aion to the end game and experianced it first hand, please, shut up with your assumptions and half-arsed attempts to make people think its terrible.

I played Wow when it first came out, and i have to say, Aion shows far more promise than wow did, far more streamlined, less buggy and above all, far more immersive.

Aneu

I've PvP'd pretty extensively in WoW.  I do have plenty of complaints about WoW's PvP, but many of them are technical and wouldn't be understood by anybody who isn't a WoW player themselves, so I won't go into that.  Suffice it to say, I've been quite successful in the various avenues which WoW offers, and I actually do agree with some of the OP's points.

In many games, RNG-based CC is extremely undesirable.  However, I would say that Aion is _not necessarily_ one of them.  It was not the RNG alone which made things like blackout, mace stun, etc. so hated in WoW.  It was that a single RNG CC could pretty much permanently tilt a battle in the opposite direction.  Those two seconds of stun could be truly devastating.  It took other factors to make it so, though.

Fact 1: People in WoW lived with RNG stuns for most of the time it was out.  For most of the time such stuns existed, only a small minority bitched about them (how long did Blizzard ignore mace stun QQ?).  They were only removed completely a very short time ago.  Why do I say RNG stuns specifically?  Because there are _still_ RNG CC's in WoW which people don't complain about.  It's all about balance.

Fear/Hex, hello?  Before the fear nerf, I once had a lock eat up about 80% of my health in one chain of CC's (yes, I know it was more than just one CC).  PLEASE tell me it was because I didn't have the gear, PLEASE.  After all, I only had about 25k health and a little over 800 resi at the time, so I WAS SO UNDEARGEARED that I surely deserved that.  No, genius.  It was because fear breaks had too much of a RNG element and too high of a damage-taken cap.  Did I bitch about it?  NO.  I didn't even think it was necessary to nerf it, when they did.  After all, locks were shit at the time, and I won almost every engagement I had with one, arena or otherwise.  Point?  RNG CC is fine if balanced properly.

So why were stuns so bad?  Think.  You will notice that although the anti-RNG stun simmered for a very long time (mace stun bitching had been around basically forever), nearly reaching a boil in S4, it was only when WotLK launched that it really reached a fever pitch.  Why?  Because WotLK really turned up the damage and burst.

Fact 2:  With the next patch, version 3.2, Blizzard is finally doing something they said they would never do: adding a flat % damage decrease to resilience (the PvP defense stat in WoW), in addition to its previous effects.  Why are they doing this?  Because the writing is on the wall.  At present, people are simply taking way too much damage in PvP.

This is why RNG CC's went from being hated to completely unacceptable.  Because a two-second stun basically was the end of certain characters, full stop, regardless of team composition.  If _damage is low enough_, RNG merely provides a more fluid, back-and-forth feel to combat.  You may believe that a player should never experience any kind of comeback due to lucky RNG rolls.  In that case, critical hits should be removed too.  I've teamed up with a healer who could literally tank, by himself, any nubbish DPS comp below 1700 without even breaking a sweat.  You know what broke him?  Lucky RNG.  Stuff liked chained crits of scourge strike and other bullshit.  That is just as, if not more so, devastating than a stun proc.  Consider that?  No, you didn't.  That would mean admitting that even WoW has a huge RNG element.

Anyhow, the OP talks about the arena with a ridiculous amount of reverence, parroting the same lines thrown around pretty commonly by middle shelf PvP'ers on the WoW forums.  He's parroting things that are correct (for WoW), but it's still parroting, with little critical analysis.  It pretty clearly pegs him as Blizzard's favorite PvP demographic: the mediocre worshiper.  These are people who are better than your average nub, do good but not very good in arena, then consider themselves super knowledgeable PvP geniuses.  They worship arena because it validates them.  Look at my shiny number.  They believe they are rare experts, but their understanding is actually superficial, and they are actually a dime a dozen.  He hasn't mentioned a few things about WoW arena, and I'm completely certain he hasn't mentioned them because he has zero idea whatsoever that they're true.  You can expect denials and "where did you get that from?" even though this is all well documented and common knowledge among high-end PvP'ers in the game, who he probably mistakenly considers himself one of.  I'll clue you in.

Fact 3:  Participation in the arena has dropped successively with each passing season.  I'm talking about raw participation, despite WoW's phenomenal growth.  So the vast, vast majority of people _INSIDE WoW_ don't like it.  The dev response?  Basically, it was to the effect of this: "Well, all those early fucks just wanted free gear.  We know what's best."

Yes, that last bit is almost a direct paraphrase of a blue (by Blizzard staff) statement, minus the explicative.  Yep.  They're so knowledgeable.  Only one problem.

Fact 4: Mediocre worshipers like the OP think all the whining came from nubs.  For instance, the idea that WotLK simply introduced too much of a damage increase relative to the health increase.  _ALMOST EVERY WIDESPREAD COMPLAINT_ originated in or was mirrored by statements some of the highest-rated players on major arena sites.  That's why Blizzard eventually acted on them, not because they give into nubrage.

Blizzard knows best, though.  WoW's PvP direction is so good, in fact, that they've concentrated on arena until now despite:

Fact 5:  Participation in arena, already declining with each season, has _dropped through the floor_ since the release of WotLK.  I mean a massive, staggering loss, OVER half.  Multiple medium-sized servers have essentially been emptied of their high-end PvP population.  Not a few.  Probably the majority.  Mine was one of them.  On my server, we lost, without exaggeration, 90% of our best players in the space of a few months.  Most people didn't notice it, since said group made up only the tiniest percentage of total players on such servers.  I'm more or less included in that, though I remain subbed but barely active.  Most of these players either quit, went more or less permanently idle (like myself), or they transferred to a realm with a long-standing active PvP community.

Yep, good old arena.  Since you're a mediocre worshiper, I know you will get defensive over my statements and dismiss me as a nub next to your godly self.  If that's the case, please tell me about your arena experience, OP.  Anyhow, you can pretty much throw out anything which the OP has said.  All of the authority which he thinks he has is essentially derived from the shiny number which he once licked fervently like a lollipop.  He isn't even knowledgeable about WoW and the success or failure of its policies (though he thinks he is).  He also can't critically think (though he again thinks he can).  Example?  "Hrm, RNG = bad.  It's possible there are other factors involved which made it so frustrating in WoW, but why bother considering them?  Context is irrelevant."  Get some perspective, OP.  Disgusting post, on the whole.  C- for effort.

And yeah, I'm still subbed to WoW.  No, I probably won't play Aion.  Cue "ur Aion fanboy" flames.  I just want to clarify for people that haven't played WoW extensively at the high end: RNG is still a big issue and WoW, and WoW's PvP direction isn't working.