Originally posted by mutator

When i saw this discussion i thought that "hmm finally someone taking this to discussion." The first thing i see when i come here is alot of people saying but the lvls are the whole game and that without lvls it would just be a endless treadmill continuing forever and people would leave... First of all the biggest game of all time is without lvls and i see people are managing quite well inside of it... and there are few that quit it... Main reason would probably be that they cant just reconnect:O some of you might already know which game it is but for those that dont know i am talking about REAL LIFE. The population of the game exceeds everything not necessarily because people like it tough most does... Yet i still havent seen people starting at lvl one in that game... So its VERY possible to make a game without lvls. Normally they use something called a skill system, which works so that the more you do something the better you get. You can also do anything without the skills for it, it just gets a bit harder. I know of another game that uses skill system but the players normally quit because they cant handle to work all the time to live in it... That is totally different from games like wow where you can play to lvl 10 then leave for half a year and then lvl to lvl 11. Also i am not aiming just for wow... its just that its the first game to come to my mind since its "Controlling the minds of innocent people" Phew finally got it out:) now those of you who likes wow go back to wow... and developers make a new game for us others:D

A game without levels, of course. But the way I read it, he was saying no skills, no levels. Like starting WoW at 80. You have all the skills, you just need to get the gear now. Or even on a skills based game like EVE, starting you with VERY high skills, but you have to get a bigger ship. I thought/think he was saying start at the end-game, not without levels.

Originally posted by mutator

When i saw this discussion i thought that "hmm finally someone taking this to discussion." The first thing i see when i come here is alot of people saying but the lvls are the whole game and that without lvls it would just be a endless treadmill continuing forever and people would leave... First of all the biggest game of all time is without lvls and i see people are managing quite well inside of it... and there are few that quit it... Main reason would probably be that they cant just reconnect:O some of you might already know which game it is but for those that dont know i am talking about REAL LIFE. The population of the game exceeds everything not necessarily because people like it tough most does... Yet i still havent seen people starting at lvl one in that game... So its VERY possible to make a game without lvls. Normally they use something called a skill system, which works so that the more you do something the better you get. You can also do anything without the skills for it, it just gets a bit harder. I know of another game that uses skill system but the players normally quit because they cant handle to work all the time to live in it... That is totally different from games like wow where you can play to lvl 10 then leave for half a year and then lvl to lvl 11. Also i am not aiming just for wow... its just that its the first game to come to my mind since its "Controlling the minds of innocent people" Phew finally got it out:) now those of you who likes wow go back to wow... and developers make a new game for us others:D

Re-read the OP post, while he is talking about levels, he is also talking about advancement in general.  I play games for fun and enjoyment and it real does have nothing to do with RL and to compair games to RL really doesn't old with me.  Just my two cents...

Another of the "instant gratification" crowd.  You should not be playing MMO's, stick to the FPS games, they are designed for your type.

The point of a MMO is to derive value through the effort of developing your character, which is only worth the time you put into it.   Something you put little time into is not worth much at all. 

I feel rather sorry for the OP, they want everything handed to them on a silver platter.  They have a word for that: "spoiled".

Originally posted by mutator

When i saw this discussion i thought that "hmm finally someone taking this to discussion." The first thing i see when i come here is alot of people saying but the lvls are the whole game and that without lvls it would just be a endless treadmill continuing forever and people would leave... First of all the biggest game of all time is without lvls and i see people are managing quite well inside of it... and there are few that quit it... Main reason would probably be that they cant just reconnect:O some of you might already know which game it is but for those that dont know i am talking about REAL LIFE. The population of the game exceeds everything not necessarily because people like it tough most does... Yet i still havent seen people starting at lvl one in that game... So its VERY possible to make a game without lvls. Normally they use something called a skill system, which works so that the more you do something the better you get. You can also do anything without the skills for it, it just gets a bit harder. I know of another game that uses skill system but the players normally quit because they cant handle to work all the time to live in it... That is totally different from games like wow where you can play to lvl 10 then leave for half a year and then lvl to lvl 11. Also i am not aiming just for wow... its just that its the first game to come to my mind since its "Controlling the minds of innocent people" Phew finally got it out:) now those of you who likes wow go back to wow... and developers make a new game for us others:D

EVE's skill system advances your character even when you're off-line. Guild Wars gives players the option of creating a max level character, albeit PvP only. And Second Life doesn't rely on the traditional MMO advancement systems at all.

You're argument about real-life not having levels isn't really a good one though, because life is full of "levels" its just we don't get to always see the numbers behind it. Learning to walk, talk, first day of school, last day of school, getting a degree (or not), getting a job, getting a raise, getting fired (negative levels), getting married (can be argued as either gaining or losing a level), having kids. These are all things that don't fit into the traditional levels as we know them, but are clearly advancements in the lives of most people.

If they ever make a game like the OP wants at least I will know to AVOID it entirely, hehe.

For me it is all about the journey and the fun I have.  I am not motivated by gear, could care less about raiding or any of that.  The only times I even care to get to max-level sooner is in a PvP game that I enjoyed such as DaoC or Warhammer.  I liked DaoC most in it's original form when you reached max level and put together a quick player crafted set of armor and weapons and you were done.  You could spend the rest of your time just fighting, not needing to mess around with any stupid raids to get the zomg_even_more_uber_weapon or armor of stupid-waste-of-time.

Originally posted by Mylon

When I load up a single player game, often they present me the option, "Would you like to see the tutorial?" To which I promptly hit "NO". I've played my fair share of games, shooters, RPGs, RTSs, etc. I can figure the stuff out just fine. Give me the meat of the game.

MMOs on the other hand force a 2-10 hour tutorial on everyone. Are you starting your eighth character because you want a different class, or hate your old server? Here, enjoy the tutorial again.

Many players even consider the 1-(max-1) grind to be an extended tutorial, with the real game starting at max level. Which, to some extent, given how getting to max level is more of an effort in patience than any meaningful amount of skill, seems to be true. In which case the tutorial becomes a 300+ hour tutorial.

Seriously, let me experience the features on the box from the start. Advancement can stay, but keep it in small baby steps, not huge leaps and bounds. Take a fresh max level person and a fully geared max level person and stretch the entire game out between those bounds. You'll save a lot of development time cutting out the rest of the crap no one really cares about anyway.

Diclaimer: I understand there will always be a "level 1", but the main point is having to graduate from killing farm animals up to killing dragons is a boring process that has been done in every freaking MMO and the idea of even picking up another MMO sickens me because how long it'll take to get to the advertised features because I have to slay farm animals first.

understand your pain, but its not gonna happen ever.

one of the whole reasons this has never been done before is simply due to playtime. subscription mmos want you to play them as long as possible, so starting at max level really lowers that time.

im also completely against this idea because personally, i enjoy the game im playing. not because im high level, but because its a fun game no matter what im doing in it. just because there is cooler stuff at max doesnt mean there isn't cool stuff before it.

silly idea if you ask me, and you'll see what you want in non sub mmos (like guild wars)

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Originally posted by Mylon
Is anyone even reading the posts?

Levels 1-10 is the exact same in every game. It's tired and annoying.

Most games, a few months after release, are a ghost town. Giant fields of mid and high level areas sit totally empty, void of any life.

Many features or better content on the box aren't available until one goes through the 300+ hour 'tutorial', meaning the game is a boring look-like to all of the other games because the special features or better pieces of content are inaccessible.

I can't think of starting in any more MMOs because of these downsides. Low levels are a chore. Mid to high levels don't feel MMO-ish in the least. And the features that make a game better than the rest? I will likely get bored before I ever see them.

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I believe people are reading what the OP said, they just don't necessarily agree on some of the points. Perhaps an option not to participate in a tutorial might resolve part of the issue. EQ for example has a tutorial, but you can by pass it if you want. Granted, you still have levels, but there in lies a point I made earlier, this allows you to get acclimated to your character.

If the OP were to start on the Mayong Server in EQ, they would immediately be a level 51 player (With 50 Alternate Advancement Points to modify their skills). This means you'd have 51 levels worth of spells, 51 levels worth of play capability and 50 points worth of AA distribution that a new player may not be familiar with. Personally I don't mind starting at the beginning because this accomplishes several things for me. One, I can get a feel for the class, two, I can see how the tactics work and three, I can see what my strength and weaknesses are.

what i meant in my post is like this... make a game where lvls doesnt count for mutch... and the comparison to real life well, the thing about real life is that if we take at the time of the romans. There is something called barbarians, untrained people (normally) running off with a weapon and killing the highly trainer romans. I mean if they make a game where someone of no skill can still kill something else then farm animals and other weird things... Mayby a game where number of people is what counts and the weapons and armors just gives an edge over the opponent just like the skills. Also a game where you dont need 40 damn people to kill a single human (or humanoid) being. I understand you need many on dragons, but if we take a example from wow where you have to be many to kill the boss of the city. (or dont have to but its an achievement) What if an archer comes? a single arrow at the head should be enough to take down a enemy. Mayby a good swordsman, for in wow no matter how hard you work you can never be better then every humanoid. Ofcourse i understand their strengh but others should be able to reach that strengh too. And still normal players should be able to atleast damage the enemy more then it regenerates. (Damn how annoying that is) but anyway i am sick of starting at lvl one too:O so i went and bought overlord 2:) Now i dont need lvl 60 to kill i just need more minions:)

Here is a simple example why levels are obsolete and should be abandoned in games. I will make a simple real life comparison, since some of games are trying to mimic those behaviors.

Take 2 people. One have a bachelor degree in science and other has a high school diploma. They are both 30 years old. In this real life example the guy with b. degree kicks high school guys ass. He stands no chance in knowledge duel. Years represent levels and degrees represent skills. This should be implemented in games. So no matter how high level you are, if you learned and trained the right skills you will be victorious.

In MMO's today it's impossible. Two guys with lvl 30 characters are limited ONLY to skills of their level. No matter how talented and tactical character is, he has a same chance to lose or win. Skills should be at least separately trained and NEVER limited to levels. There are some pathetic tries of this, but in the end they all come back to the old school : "Level and you shall gain knowledge!".

How about you have access to all skills, but the less you trained them (used them), the less success they have to activate? Now that would be fun, or at least more fun then going in dungeon and spending a lot of your life in it. So at level one and final level you can go and train on people right away or mobs if you prefer it that way (doing quests which would reward only items, gold you know, economy stuff).

But nooooo. Let's go in dungeons and kill dragons.

Originally posted by slavkec

Here is a simple example why levels are obsolete and should be abandoned in games. I will make a simple real life comparison, since some of games are trying to mimic those behaviors.

 

Take 2 people. One have a bachelor degree in science and other has a high school diploma. They are both 30 years old. In this real life example the guy with b. degree kicks high school guys ass. He stands no chance in knowledge duel. Years represent levels and degrees represent skills.

I know this is beside the point, but this is kinda funny. My job has me working with engineers with a lot more letters after their names than I've got, and a for a good many of them, it just means they know a lot about very little. They may be awesome aerospace engineeers, but in more general terms, they're as dumb as bricks. We have a term for it. Book Smart and Shop Stupid.

Originally posted by jonrd463

I know this is beside the point, but this is kinda funny. My job has me working with engineers with a lot more letters after their names than I've got, and a for a good many of them, it just means they know a lot about very little. They may be awesome aerospace engineeers, but in more general terms, they're as dumb as bricks. We have a term for it. Book Smart and Shop Stupid.

Exactly my point. The guy (aerospace engineer) will always beat you in aerospace dynamics knowledge duel, no matter how old you are, because he trained that skill hard and he can use it always to defeat you in that field of battle. In games, if you are lvl 50 with only basic skills, and the engineer is lvl 30 with no matter what skills, you’ll beat him ‘cause of your level and not your skills. That’s my point here and that’s why levels are removal material.

Well - personally, I hate the concept of having an "endgame" at all.

The game should start with level 1 and there should be no maxlevel at all. Yes - at some point progress will slow down extremely, and progress from levelup should be extremely small. But it should be a very long road until then. And there should be no maxlevel where all the fun is. You should be able to work on your gear from level 1 on.

I just found the game of the year. Or (years). its closed beta and has been in developement since 2008.
Its not based on leveling. Its based on skills etc. Its 2D, and its awesome. Just got a cb key from a friend.
Never heard of this game before, the community is small and tight and they wont advertise etc at all before the game is 100% complete. Its awesome.. Really awesome.

Oh, I see. You want cheatcodes in mmo's. Sorry mate, ain't happening. You can always try your hand at exploits though, but dont come pissing and moaning when you're banned

Originally posted by slavkec

How about you have access to all skills, but the less you trained them (used them), the less success they have to activate? Now that would be fun, or at least more fun then going in dungeon and spending a lot of your life in it. So at level one and final level you can go and train on people right away or mobs if you prefer it that way (doing quests which would reward only items, gold you know, economy stuff).

 

But nooooo. Let's go in dungeons and kill dragons.

So replace a single overall level with a bunch of different skill levels.  Go hit a tree 10000000 times to get better at Sword or Axe.  Jump 100000 times to get better at Jumping.  Bandage people up 100000 times ti get better at healing.  If you don't want to fight, just make 100000 widgets to get better at widget making.  Overwhelm everyone with every skill at once.  Let them figure out what works and what doesn't through lots of trial and error, eventually concluding what the best combination of skills are.   Never seen that before=) 

I don't really see the FORCED tutorial you talk about, Most mmos give you the option to do the tutorial. Half of the fun is the journey though, granted I'm an achiever type person who likes to get everything the fastest way possible, I still enjoy the journey the 1st time. Even when making an alt you should be familiar enough with the game to speed through the beginning areas.

I think that if either it's levels or skill based or some hyrbid or whatever...

You should be able to get to maybe 90% of the "cap" whatever that cap is in a relatively short period of time.

Like if you have 50 levels, you can get to 40-45 in only like 20-30 hours play time.

But then the last 10-5 levels take a while. Like, months.

Now, here's the catch.

All "end-game" stuff is accessable at level 40.

Allows for progression through content like moving from dungeons to heroics to small raids to large raids then through raid tiers 1 to 2 to 3 etc. all while still "leveling" your character.

You shouldn't hit the level cap until you've completed the majority of the game.

When you hit the cap you should have already played through and bested most all of the "end game" content.

For PvP players it's the same, once you hit that "soft cap" of 40 you can really dive into all the PvP game has to offer. You are at 90% power, and even if another person has been playing a bit longer and is closer to the cap, it's only a relative power difference of 1-10% which is not that severe. Two players at 90% could easily beat one player who was maxed out.

For the solo guys you'd still have 10 levels worth of content / quests and grinding and crafting etc. etc. and since you are at 90% power you can make the solo content for the last 10% a lot more "epic" and fun.

So pretty much it's an extended tutorial where  you rapidly progress while learning the game and fleshing out your character, but to truely "master" it and the game will take you quite a bit longer.

Would be great for alts and trying out new classes or jobs or skill combinations, depending on whatever system you use, since you can re-level or whatever up to the soft cap of 90% fairly quickly.

i know a game where you dont use lvls, a game where you actually gotta do something besides killing every mob to be able to get some skills. Anyone heard of Wurm online? ofcourse it got a bit poor graphics and a p2p beyond skill lvl 20 of anything. That game is REALLY open, i mean like you can go togheter a group of friends making a village and defending it from wild monsters and make the creatures into food for survival and creating ships and everything. If you prefer living alone you can also do this... tough it might prove a challange its possible. The player pool is small because of the p2p if you want skills beyond 20, and because its simply too challanging for new players that dont find a village. These kinda games is what there should be more off!