Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by zaylin

Guess my point being I personally think any combo can work well as long as your other party members are more open minded to odd/new/challenging ways to approche a situation. And im not saying any of you are not open minded,im just making a general statement :)

 

Its my personall beleif that your wrong here. FFXI was very strict on job roles, if you tried to deviate from your jobs role you were going to be worthelss in an endgame type setting. Like I said you could do w/e worked for you on solo play, but that success you may have there will not translate to success in end game with your off the wall combo.

The sub job system was meant to complement your main job not to make you a DD mage.

Thats why I want the Job system fixed First.

The only thing i hated about FFXI is the Jobs arent even close to Equel. In this area you need a Blm. A RDM, Sumener, Thief, Dark night, Ranger, Dragoon ect ect Cant be taken with the same effect as a Blm. Insert every major class or Job in here.

Cant leave W/O a Whm or 2 Rdm, later its cant leave W/O WAR, No other tank will work. gata be a war.

They need to fallow Vamguards Model and make it 4 areas. tank, heal, mele dps, and range dps.

Or better yet. No real classes Just skills.... But i dont think im that lucky.

That was the one thing about FFXI that drove me away. My friend was playing it and was explaining to me about the Job roles and I asked him: "So if I wanted to be a be a samurai/summoner I could?" and his reply was: "Yeah, but no one will party with you." I also hated the idea of camping, espicially camping crabs.

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by zaylin

Guess my point being I personally think any combo can work well as long as your other party members are more open minded to odd/new/challenging ways to approche a situation. And im not saying any of you are not open minded,im just making a general statement :)

 

Its my personall beleif that your wrong here. FFXI was very strict on job roles, if you tried to deviate from your jobs role you were going to be worthelss in an endgame type setting. Like I said you could do w/e worked for you on solo play, but that success you may have there will not translate to success in end game with your off the wall combo.

The sub job system was meant to complement your main job not to make you a DD mage.

I can see your point, and to be honest My highest level attaind was only 35, so I was not familar with end game content. So I guess when i made that statement it was more of a generalization of end game content and not specificly FF11.

Originally posted by mrcalhou

That was the one thing about FFXI that drove me away. My friend was playing it and was explaining to me about the Job roles and I asked him: "So if I wanted to be a be a samurai/summoner I could?" and his reply was: "Yeah, but no one will party with you." I also hated the idea of camping, espicially camping crabs.

Ya,but if you had a good party that chatted while doing so it was not actually that bad. FF11 had a greaat community. and I had some great times just chit chatting while waiting for the next pull/resting.

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by Gameslave

Anyone who is knowledgeable and proficient with their skills can make any combination work for them. And I know most players aren't this way, but when they actually say "you're the wrong job" or ask you to change, they ruin the entire "role play" aspect of the game. It's all fine & dandy if you don't invite someone, but don't tell them to change. I'm a [ blu / smn ] because I want to be, tyvm.

Some people worry about stats and equipment and subjobs. And sure, these things raise their fair share of questions. But I'll give credit to someone who is about the roleplay and not the grind who comes up with a story as opposed to someone who's about the grind and not the roleplay and makes excuses to be ignorant or lazy.

I've seem AMAZING things from a [ whm / nin ], but its an endgame thing. Definitely not something you start out as, but definitely something to aspire to.

 

You could make any combo work for you doing solo stuff or less formal things. (I use formal for lack of a better word). As for raids and xp groups you couldnt make any combo work. For example I was PLD main I could not make PLD/NIN or PLD/WAR a respectable DD and I had the best DD gear that gill could buy. The DPS was just too low. However PLD/NIN was great when I was off doing my own thing.

Most games have RP servers for a reason, sadly ffxi was not one of them. (Atleast I dont recall seeing one. never really looked) 

I have no idea who your trying to fool but WHM/nin in endgame is a joke. Like PLD/NIN its great for non formal things and solo stuff. But as for raids and xp pt's its a joke.

If someone asks you to change your sub you can say {No Thanks}, and if they invite you well great, if they dont oh well.

Like I said Its your choice to be w/e sub you want and its my choice to not invite a self centered player who does not understand game concepts and group mechanics.

There are so many reason to play a game and you argue the confined barriers of player-imposed endgame rules. For raids and xp groups, you're absolutely right. There's no place for a [whm/nin] in full sized parties against full scale bosses (nevermind that there are youtube videos of them soloing avatar primes). But I wasn't talking about those endgame activities, just endgame in general, after you've already done everything you wanted to. To me endgame is more than the activities people do because they're bored or they were called on by their linkshell to help someone get a drop. It's those final ventures of exploration, even to places where you've been told there is nothing, just because you're curious. And what do you find?

I'd like Square-Enix to NOT release certain information about added content, monsters, and areas for that very purpose. Throughout most of my gaming experience I've been told where to go and what to do, not just because there was a certain place to party for exp or a certain way to complete a quest or a mission, but because other players said "this is how you play" in so many words. It wasn't until I broke away from that player-imposed order that I ran into a [75whm/37nin] soloing things that no other job could solo. That's more than just understanding game mechanics, that's mastering them.

I'm not hardcore enough to dedicate myself to that kind of path. I'm sure it's hard, even impossible for some. And it's certainly not favorable for a group (although I've known a Tarus to rely on /nin in shitty parties). But to say it's a joke is a joke. My blu/smn is off the beaten path, it's not that I fail to recognize oddjob choices aren't practical, but I only use that combo for fun like that whm/nin must have played for the challenge. The people that matter know this, and the ones who don't understand don't matter. That doesn't make a person self-centered.

What's self centered is when someone invites me to a party, THEN expects me to change. I just disband. Whetever the case, they shouldn't be bitching to me about it /tells after the fact. Screw them.

IMO, what makes a game boring is if its designed so the end game raiding "must" have specific classes/subjobs in order to succeed.  A good game design would make it possible for most, if not all combinations work so that people could play what  they want, and not what the game designers demands. (Might as well toss out all the worthless classes/combos if thats the case.)

And to those who say, well, it s alright if you want to play one of those combos solo, I recall that FFXI really wasn't a game that you could solo in.  Sounds like SE plans to rectify that situation in their next game so perhaps they are right.

Guess it won't matter to me.   It sounds like one thing that will remain the same is FFXIV will be a raid centric, PVE based game (which I suspect will be full of quests) which isn't my style so I'll probably be passing on it.

Originally posted by Ekibiogami

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by zaylin

Guess my point being I personally think any combo can work well as long as your other party members are more open minded to odd/new/challenging ways to approche a situation. And im not saying any of you are not open minded,im just making a general statement :)

Its my personall beleif that your wrong here. FFXI was very strict on job roles, if you tried to deviate from your jobs role you were going to be worthelss in an endgame type setting. Like I said you could do w/e worked for you on solo play, but that success you may have there will not translate to success in end game with your off the wall combo.

The sub job system was meant to complement your main job not to make you a DD mage.

Thats why I want the Job system fixed First.

The only thing i hated about FFXI is the Jobs arent even close to Equel. In this area you need a Blm. A RDM, Sumener, Thief, Dark night, Ranger, Dragoon ect ect Cant be taken with the same effect as a Blm. Insert every major class or Job in here.

Cant leave W/O a Whm or 2 Rdm, later its cant leave W/O WAR, No other tank will work. gata be a war.

They need to fallow Vamguards Model and make it 4 areas. tank, heal, mele dps, and range dps.

Or better yet. No real classes Just skills.... But i dont think im that lucky.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

If every job was "equal" there would be almost no reason to party. The area you're in only matters as much as the mobs you fight. You're obviously not going to fight magical creatures with an all-melee crew or vice-versa unless of course you're doing a manaburn or stun-spamming party, but those aren't spur of the moment things.

What I'm hearing (by all means correct me if I'm wrong) is that be "equal" you want all mages and melee to have identical skills with nothing but graphics setting them apart, or a white mage to be able to melee on the same level as a warrior. Because how you would even begin compare the nature of a black mage to that of a ranger or dragoon is beyond me...

Each job fills a role, and the player of that job is depended on to fulfill that role. If a summoner used a sword their talents as a summoner is wasted. No matter what you choose you will have certain weaknesses. Accept that. In different areas you need a different combination certain jobs. Accept that. The sooner you come to terms with the fact that a party might get along just as fine without you, the better. If you want to argue that your "character" has his own style I'll retort that my "character" doesn't like it.

If a character doesn't have a role, then it's not a Role Playing Game.

Originally posted by Zorvan

I think they should keep the job system. I would like to see something added, like the Materia system from FFVII or even the Sphere Junction system from FFX, as a way to introduce more variety between players characters.

I was thinking that would be awesome, too... Something akin to the Sphere Grid from X or License Board from XII, etc. etc. Some way to *really* give players the ability to fine-tune and customize their characters. In terms of a license board or sphere grid, though, there should be some way to "buy back" points or whatever the equivalent is that's used to expand on a given skill.

That would allow for a much less linear and more "lateral" versatility. Something less like a "skill tree" and more like a "skill web"

I really hope they have something in the same spirit as those in XIV.

Originally posted by Gameslave

Originally posted by Ekibiogami

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by zaylin

Guess my point being I personally think any combo can work well as long as your other party members are more open minded to odd/new/challenging ways to approche a situation. And im not saying any of you are not open minded,im just making a general statement :)

Its my personall beleif that your wrong here. FFXI was very strict on job roles, if you tried to deviate from your jobs role you were going to be worthelss in an endgame type setting. Like I said you could do w/e worked for you on solo play, but that success you may have there will not translate to success in end game with your off the wall combo.

The sub job system was meant to complement your main job not to make you a DD mage.

Thats why I want the Job system fixed First.

The only thing i hated about FFXI is the Jobs arent even close to Equel. In this area you need a Blm. A RDM, Sumener, Thief, Dark night, Ranger, Dragoon ect ect Cant be taken with the same effect as a Blm. Insert every major class or Job in here.

Cant leave W/O a Whm or 2 Rdm, later its cant leave W/O WAR, No other tank will work. gata be a war.

They need to fallow Vamguards Model and make it 4 areas. tank, heal, mele dps, and range dps.

Or better yet. No real classes Just skills.... But i dont think im that lucky.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

If every job was "equal" there would be almost no reason to party. The area you're in only matters as much as the mobs you fight. You're obviously not going to fight magical creatures with an all-melee crew or vice-versa unless of course you're doing a manaburn or stun-spamming party, but those aren't spur of the moment things.

What I'm hearing (by all means correct me if I'm wrong) is that be "equal" you want all mages and melee to have identical skills with nothing but graphics setting them apart, or a white mage to be able to melee on the same level as a warrior. Because how you would even begin compare the nature of a black mage to that of a ranger or dragoon is beyond me...

Each job fills a role, and the player of that job is depended on to fulfill that role. If a summoner used a sword their talents as a summoner is wasted. No matter what you choose you will have certain weaknesses. Accept that. In different areas you need a different combination certain jobs. Accept that. The sooner you come to terms with the fact that a party might get along just as fine without you, the better. If you want to argue that your "character" has his own style I'll retort that my "character" doesn't like it.

If a character doesn't have a role, then it's not a Role Playing Game.

You have clearly never played Vanguard...

Each party member haveing a role is fine and dandy. But if you cant get a party because your useless (in a given area) then your screwed.

There were far to many areas in FFXI where some jobs were useless. If you really played the game you would know this.

Now maby they have fixed it. But lots of Jobs were Incapable of getting a job is certin areas unless they needed to fill that last spot in a Otherwise Perfect party.

I disagree with that.  I played FFXI for a long time and always saw well rounded groups with different jobs. There was more job discrimination in games like Guild Wars.

SE has a chance to fix some of the most common complaints to the game and thus will mostlikley be better than ffxi... so any critizism in the aspect is very unfounded.

So far everything sounds very good to me.

Originally posted by Ekibiogami

You have clearly never played Vanguard...

Each party member haveing a role is fine and dandy. But if you cant get a party because your useless (in a given area) then your screwed.

There were far to many areas in FFXI where some jobs were useless. If you really played the game you would know this.

Now maby they have fixed it. But lots of Jobs were Incapable of getting a job is certin areas unless they needed to fill that last spot in a Otherwise Perfect party.

No, I haven't played Vanguard. And I probably never will. See, I have this thing where I only play good games (I'm kidding so don't jump down my throat for that).

Whether you mean useless in geographical areas or useless in development areas, there's a perfectly resonable explanation as to why. I might not know them, but I'm sure a more seasoned veteran of XI could enlighten you.

I never saw the need for MOST jobs, to be honest. It's the players that impose those rules. If your job was useless to "otherwise perfect" parties, why not take initiative and start a party of your own? Almost every job can be replaced with another as long as they know how to play it. I heard a lot of bitching about how WHM and BLM no longer get invites because of SCH but it never so much as slowed me down for either role. Each job has its perks just like some are more dependable than others.

It's ultimately on the leader. What mattered was how the party leader felt about the weight and balance of that perk vs. reliability. I remember lots of parties where players suggested "fill-ins" and the leaders declined because of something or another. I myself will never invite a stranger Taru-PLD into my party. Baaad experience...

Originally posted by Gameslave

Originally posted by Ekibiogami

You have clearly never played Vanguard...

Each party member haveing a role is fine and dandy. But if you cant get a party because your useless (in a given area) then your screwed.

There were far to many areas in FFXI where some jobs were useless. If you really played the game you would know this.

Now maby they have fixed it. But lots of Jobs were Incapable of getting a job is certin areas unless they needed to fill that last spot in a Otherwise Perfect party.

 

No, I haven't played Vanguard. And I probably never will. See, I have this thing where I only play good games (I'm kidding so don't jump down my throat for that).

Whether you mean useless in geographical areas or useless in development areas, there's a perfectly resonable explanation as to why. I might not know them, but I'm sure a more seasoned veteran of XI could enlighten you.

I never saw the need for MOST jobs, to be honest. It's the players that impose those rules. If your job was useless to "otherwise perfect" parties, why not take initiative and start a party of your own? Almost every job can be replaced with another as long as they know how to play it. I heard a lot of bitching about how WHM and BLM no longer get invites because of SCH but it never so much as slowed me down for either role. Each job has its perks just like some are more dependable than others.

It's ultimately on the leader. What mattered was how the party leader felt about the weight and balance of that perk vs. reliability. I remember lots of parties where players suggested "fill-ins" and the leaders declined because of something or another. I myself will never invite a stranger Taru-PLD into my party. Baaad experience...

Lol to each his own. But The best PLD i ever grouped with was a Taru-Pld-Whm. In the 4 hours we were in a group together I healed him 4 times, He never lost agro, and we Wiped once due to a train.
 

Some of these jobs require skill to play. You cant just walk blindly into them.

Yeah I loved the Job system of FFXI but like some said when a party wants you to change jobs else your out it's limiting the effectiveness of the system. I used a few times sam/thf and I liked the build but people keep on telling you you will dps more if you use war as sub or stuff like that, ok you may be right but the damage you get with sam/thf is not bad and since your in a party I can use some of the best skills thieves have so till I can deal decent damage I don't see any problem if I use a build I like.

Also I'd like if they give a little boost for thiefs it's very hard to lvl them but mostly beast mastery when you share exp with your temporary tamed monster and without using a tamed monster you would lower a lot of your damage.