The question is not if its a MMORPG or not. The question is: "Is it a fun game". The anwser is: "Yes". At least for me.

Played it for almost 4 years, both PvE and PvP. I would say that the game WAS underrated. With almost no new content or improvement then it starts feeling old compared to (other) MMO's.

It still feels and look right: Not cartoonish like WoW, and the visual effects and weapon size are not exaggerated like they are in many Asian MMO.

I think many players would return if they knew what bonus they will get in GW2 for the titles they get in GW1.

Well, everyone defines thing as they like, tho the main contention here seems to be over the instancing and if that somehow invalidates GW as an MMO.  Personally, I don't think it does.

Its true even towns and outposts are districted, and I think the limit is 100 players per district.  However, I think its generally understood this is a limit imposed by the devs for graphics reasons, rather than server issues.  If I load into even a moderately full district, it can take some time to load all the character models (not the latest, but I have a 8800 GTS w/ 640mb).  Most MMOs seem to have graphics lag trying to get 100 player models into one area (character models being the most detailed polygons in most games).  40 v 40 in WAR was pushing it, even after using a number of optimizations.  Anet is rather performance obsessed, so they limited the number of players in the towns/outposts.

Towns are also more than just glorified lobbies.  There's no AH, but the traders for common and rare materials, runes & insignias, dyes, and the scroll trader act as a sort of middlemen dealers in these resources and commodities.  The values of the items varies with the buy/sell ratios of each.  Even the player to player economy tends to use the values on the traders as guidelines for pricing (Deldrimor steel often being sold at the average of the traders' buy/sell value).  When an update made perma-Shadow Form farming of the Underworld possible, the priciest material, Ectoplasm, went into a nose dive.  Players with a large investment in ecto starting selling as the supply increase drove down trader prices, trying to limit their losses - which in turn drove ecto prices further down.  (a later nerf slowly brought ecto prices back up).  Recently, when Nicholas the Traveler's weekly collection turned to parchment, parchment prices spiked for the week (wood briefly as well, but it was far more profitable to turn your wood into parchment).  So, towns do serve more than just as a meeting place, and incidently, there is a global, persistent economy which is effected by players in the GW world.

There are other persistent global effects, tho not necessarily of earth shattering import (but how many games could claim that anyway).  Favor of the Gods (dependent on players achieving certain title tracks) determines if you can enter Mists high level zones without having an appropriate scroll (again, a globally traded resource).  Guilds grind Kurzick/Luxon faction to determine the control of numerous outposts in the Jade Sea and Echovald forests - of course, this is more for prestige - yet they do reap the benefit of gaining access to the discount merchants, which creates another subsection of the player economy, which is lockpick selling.  Also, a minor inconvience, but if a player has more Luxon faction in a Kurz controlled outpost, you'll have to map travel to another outpost to use the merchant or any other NPC service.

Also, about the CS vs GW analogy...something I'm surprised no one has mentioned.  CS "zones" - game servers, are setup by individuals, like with most team FPS games.  All instances are run off Anet's servers.  Trust me, my oh so wonderful ISP has show me many times that things will keep happening in my instance (luckily my heroes are usually good enough at keeping up the fight on their own) even when I'm getting updates on the action only every 10 seconds :(

But, if the instancing really gets you, you probably don't care that GW fits every other generally accepted definition of an MMO, or that it shares pretty much all the traits common to games called MMOs.  How much you solo it or try to play socially is really up to you.  Some say heroes killed the social aspect.  But, with the daily Zaishen quests, I see plenty of players gathering in that day's mission outpost to PUG.  Me, I usually just put a "lf discord partner" up and have a quick, one mission stand with another player and our 6 necro heroes spamming Discord.  Sometimes the partner is chatty, sometimes just all buisness.  Its not even that hard of build to put together, yet I still see lots of players PUGing it up (tho now that the Z quests are repeating and I suspect many people have their guardian title tracks, its beginning to drop off).

Originally posted by Joiry

Also, about the CS vs GW analogy...something I'm surprised no one has mentioned.  CS "zones" - game servers, are setup by individuals, like with most team FPS games.

What hardware the game is running on is not relevant. You could easily make a real MMO that utilizes the client machines (though cheats would probably prevent you from doing this).

As for the rest of your post: Im not against GW as such, and I agree that it has some borderline elements to it, but IMO it is not enough to qualify it. The game is simply too fragmented and in-persistent to be called an MMO IMO.

Originally posted by Rasputin

Originally posted by Joiry

Also, about the CS vs GW analogy...something I'm surprised no one has mentioned.  CS "zones" - game servers, are setup by individuals, like with most team FPS games.

 

What hardware the game is running is not relevant. You could easily make a real MMO that utilizes the client machines (though cheats would probably prevent you from doing this).

As for the rest of your post: Im not against GW as such, and I agree that it has some borderline elements to it, but IMO it is not enough to qualify it. The game is simply too fragmented and in-persistent to be called an MMO IMO.

Certain hardware specifics don't matter (which specific cpu, memory, etc, etc), but the fact GW is run off a large server infrastructure which is all interconnected is a substantial difference from lots of personal servers which are merely connected by a phonebook-like listing service from the central server.  I'm willing to bet the server code for GW is far more complex than that for online FPS match games server.

I'm curious what constitutes too fragmented and in-persistent for you.  The persistence of most games is fairly static, nothing ever happens except mobs respawn.  Certain games you can say have a continuing, on going dynamic state of the world.  Port control and PvP zone creation in PotBS, or the shifting of the high level zone control in WAR to push to the enemy captial.  Or, in the dearly departed Shadowbane, the fact player cities could be built and destroyed.  A lot of games called MMOs may be "persistent", but its a very static persistence and might as well be an instance anyway (in that whatever mobs are killed will respawn shortly anyway).

But, like anything, YMMV.

Originally posted by Joiry

Originally posted by Rasputin

Originally posted by Joiry

Also, about the CS vs GW analogy...something I'm surprised no one has mentioned.  CS "zones" - game servers, are setup by individuals, like with most team FPS games.

 

What hardware the game is running is not relevant. You could easily make a real MMO that utilizes the client machines (though cheats would probably prevent you from doing this).

As for the rest of your post: Im not against GW as such, and I agree that it has some borderline elements to it, but IMO it is not enough to qualify it. The game is simply too fragmented and in-persistent to be called an MMO IMO.

 

Certain hardware specifics don't matter (which specific cpu, memory, etc, etc), but the fact GW is run off a large server infrastructure which is all interconnected is a substantial difference from lots of personal servers which are merely connected by a phonebook-like listing service from the central server.  I'm willing to bet the server code for GW is far more complex than that for online FPS match games server.

I'm curious what constitutes too fragmented and in-persistent for you.  The persistence of most games is fairly static, nothing ever happens except mobs respawn.  Certain games you can say have a continuing, on going dynamic state of the world.  Port control and PvP zone creation in PotBS, or the shifting of the high level zone control in WAR to push to the enemy captial.  Or, in the dearly departed Shadowbane, the fact player cities could be built and destroyed.  A lot of games called MMOs may be "persistent", but its a very static persistence and might as well be an instance anyway (in that whatever mobs are killed will respawn shortly anyway).

But, like anything, YMMV.

You are right, and that is also why I hate many themepark games. They seriously don't even try to be more than standard games.

But even a game like WoW - which is very static - has a coherent world, that persists - meaning it will always exist. The area will never die, and it exists uniquely. That is the very least you can expect from an MMO IMO.

UO with it's housing, Shadowbane with it's player cities, EVE with it's guild bases (as far as I understand?) etc. are much more MMO than for instance WoW, which is only a few degrees over GW. The more there is to persist, implicitly the more the players own of the world, the more of an MMO it becomes IMO. Second Life is probably the highest degree we have seen to date. If it just had some gameplay :)

Sadly I need to introduce the term "degree of MMO-ness". The development of the genre and lack of an agreed-upon definition forces me to do that.

PS: What does YMMV stand for?

Guild Wars is an awesome mmo well co op mmo... ive played trhough all 3 of the stand alones (i have yet to try EoN) every time i log in im constantly impressed with how well the game is maintaining it self.

  Guild Wars is underrated.  But, it is not boring.  If you have just started playing GW I envy you.  I've been playing it since it started and even though you can only reach level 20 there is many many things you can do.   Create a 55 monk and rule GW.  Venture into Underworld and Tomb of Primeval Kings with a band of barrage rangers and watch the arrows fly.  Run people with your deverish or Warrior across continents for cash.   Enter into  Fissure oF Woe in search of treasures. Really I can go on and on, it's just endless and this isn't even Factions which is Awesome.  Seriously if some of you haven't tried GW you are missing out.

Yeah it's a great experience.. not particularly a lasting experience (especially if you play it a lot like I did.) But it's so fun I totally feel as though I got my money's worth and in the end that's what really matters.

Originally posted by Joiry

Originally posted by Rasputin

Originally posted by Joiry

Also, about the CS vs GW analogy...something I'm surprised no one has mentioned.  CS "zones" - game servers, are setup by individuals, like with most team FPS games.

 

What hardware the game is running is not relevant. You could easily make a real MMO that utilizes the client machines (though cheats would probably prevent you from doing this).

As for the rest of your post: Im not against GW as such, and I agree that it has some borderline elements to it, but IMO it is not enough to qualify it. The game is simply too fragmented and in-persistent to be called an MMO IMO.

 

Certain hardware specifics don't matter (which specific cpu, memory, etc, etc), but the fact GW is run off a large server infrastructure which is all interconnected is a substantial difference from lots of personal servers which are merely connected by a phonebook-like listing service from the central server.  I'm willing to bet the server code for GW is far more complex than that for online FPS match games server.

I'm curious what constitutes too fragmented and in-persistent for you.  The persistence of most games is fairly static, nothing ever happens except mobs respawn.  Certain games you can say have a continuing, on going dynamic state of the world.  Port control and PvP zone creation in PotBS, or the shifting of the high level zone control in WAR to push to the enemy captial.  Or, in the dearly departed Shadowbane, the fact player cities could be built and destroyed.  A lot of games called MMOs may be "persistent", but its a very static persistence and might as well be an instance anyway (in that whatever mobs are killed will respawn shortly anyway).

But, like anything, YMMV.

The servers being physically interconnected is irrelevant, logically they are completely seperate entities which has no bearing on each other. That is one of the big reasons for me not seeing it as an MMORPG.

I dont know how long you have been around but pioneers of MMORPGs had one persistant world per server and that is that constituted an MMORPG. The fact that you played in one persistant world and could potentially bump into anyone on that server. Instances are totally the opposite of that as it creates its own private world inside the world and thus destroys the whole world immersion, which for me is fundamental for MMORPGS.

The fact that most MMORPGs has fairly static worlds is another thing, one that can be improved, but giving up and going into an instanced world does not help the immersion.

GW is not a true MMO, but it is awesome in its own way, especially if you like PvP.

Can't wait for GW2, which will be a true MOO indeed, having all the awsomeness of GW1 as well.
Oh, and it won't even have a monthly fee. As soon as beta starts, chances are that i won't touch another MMO for years...

Originally posted by Yamota

The servers being physically interconnected is irrelevant, logically they are completely seperate entities which has no bearing on each other. That is one of the big reasons for me not seeing it as an MMORPG.

I dont know how long you have been around but pioneers of MMORPGs had one persistant world per server and that is that constituted an MMORPG. The fact that you played in one persistant world and could potentially bump into anyone on that server. Instances are totally the opposite of that as it creates its own private world inside the world and thus destroys the whole world immersion, which for me is fundamental for MMORPGS.

The fact that most MMORPGs has fairly static worlds is another thing, one that can be improved, but giving up and going into an instanced world does not help the immersion.

You can potentially bump into anyone in GW.  Every mission or explorable area (well, except for a few EAs) are connected to a town/outpost.  Everyone has to pass through these to get to the adventure area.  Only the major hub towns (there's 4) regularly have multiple districts.  A few of the none hub ones do, usually major farm adjacent ones.  And, except for holiday events, districts are not usually full, so you can freely travel between them.  I run into people all the time.  Sure I don't run into everyoen, but who does in every mmo?

Its true, its a lot easier to be a recluse in GW than other games.  Form a guild, stock the guildhall with all the services you need (merchants, various traders, etc), and you can map travel between outposts quickly and jump into missions/EAs as fast as you can...but then there's plently of people in other MMOs who just speed thru towns/common gathering areas and never interact either.

I suppose for many people, the quintessential MMO(RPG) experience is going out to location X, to do some activity (farm, quest, resource gather) and running into someone else out there (or they run into you), and either chat, group up, otherwise cooperate, maybe fight (depending on the game), etc.  That doesn't happen in GW, and if that turns you off, fine.  GW just has a different social dynamic.  However, that doesn't make it not an MMO, at least not in my opinion.  In every other aspect, it shares pretty much every trait common to other generally recognized MMOs.

Rasputin, YMMV = your mileage may vary, basically, different people come to different conclusions looking at the same stuff.  No doubt I'm dating myself with old lingo ;)

Originally posted by Joiry

Originally posted by Yamota

The servers being physically interconnected is irrelevant, logically they are completely seperate entities which has no bearing on each other. That is one of the big reasons for me not seeing it as an MMORPG.

I dont know how long you have been around but pioneers of MMORPGs had one persistant world per server and that is that constituted an MMORPG. The fact that you played in one persistant world and could potentially bump into anyone on that server. Instances are totally the opposite of that as it creates its own private world inside the world and thus destroys the whole world immersion, which for me is fundamental for MMORPGS.

The fact that most MMORPGs has fairly static worlds is another thing, one that can be improved, but giving up and going into an instanced world does not help the immersion.

 

You can potentially bump into anyone in GW.  Every mission or explorable area (well, except for a few EAs) are connected to a town/outpost.  Everyone has to pass through these to get to the adventure area.  Only the major hub towns (there's 4) regularly have multiple districts.  A few of the none hub ones do, usually major farm adjacent ones.  And, except for holiday events, districts are not usually full, so you can freely travel between them.  I run into people all the time.  Sure I don't run into everyoen, but who does in every mmo?

Its true, its a lot easier to be a recluse in GW than other games.  Form a guild, stock the guildhall with all the services you need (merchants, various traders, etc), and you can map travel between outposts quickly and jump into missions/EAs as fast as you can...but then there's plently of people in other MMOs who just speed thru towns/common gathering areas and never interact either.

I suppose for many people, the quintessential MMO(RPG) experience is going out to location X, to do some activity (farm, quest, resource gather) and running into someone else out there (or they run into you), and either chat, group up, otherwise cooperate, maybe fight (depending on the game), etc.  That doesn't happen in GW, and if that turns you off, fine.  GW just has a different social dynamic.  However, that doesn't make it not an MMO, at least not in my opinion.  In every other aspect, it shares pretty much every trait common to other generally recognized MMOs.

Rasputin, YMMV = your mileage may vary, basically, different people come to different conclusions looking at the same stuff.  No doubt I'm dating myself with old lingo ;)

I think thats the major issue some people have. They have a their mind-set as to the way a MMORPG should play and feel like. Its sad really because GWs is probly the best online experience I've had to date, and that includes all the major MMOs on the market. GWs has seriously had alot of work and effort put into it...and for those who are turned off simply because they dont get the "MMORPG emmersion" you would in other "real" MMORPGs is sad. From what I've seen so far GWs and is more thought out and deep then any other online I've ever played.....Too bad it took me this long to finally give it a shot otherwise I wouldnt have wasted all my money, time and energy on the past MMOs I've played.

Originally posted by susanto1228

 

 

  Guild Wars is underrated.  But, it is not boring.  If you have just started playing GW I envy you.  I've been playing it since it started and even though you can only reach level 20 there is many many things you can do.   Create a 55 monk and rule GW.  Venture into Underworld and Tomb of Primeval Kings with a band of barrage rangers and watch the arrows fly.  Run people with your deverish or Warrior across continents for cash.   Enter into  Fissure oF Woe in search of treasures. Really I can go on and on, it's just endless and this isn't even Factions which is Awesome.  Seriously if some of you haven't tried GW you are missing out.

My thoughts as well. I've just started playing it (trilogy + expansion) and its honestly one of, if not the best MMOs I've played since starting with EQ1. And its below WAR and LOTRO on this gamelist? NCSOFT deserves more praise then that? GWs makes WAR look like childsplay.....LOL

no, its over-rated. it limits you to using the abilities on your combat bar, is entirely instanced, you are glued to the ground, and you can play through it in 1-2 months.

Originally posted by Ethian

Originally posted by susanto1228

 

 

  Guild Wars is underrated.  But, it is not boring.  If you have just started playing GW I envy you.  I've been playing it since it started and even though you can only reach level 20 there is many many things you can do.   Create a 55 monk and rule GW.  Venture into Underworld and Tomb of Primeval Kings with a band of barrage rangers and watch the arrows fly.  Run people with your deverish or Warrior across continents for cash.   Enter into  Fissure oF Woe in search of treasures. Really I can go on and on, it's just endless and this isn't even Factions which is Awesome.  Seriously if some of you haven't tried GW you are missing out.

 

My thoughts as well. I've just started playing it (trilogy + expansion) and its honestly one of, if not the best MMOs I've played since starting with EQ1. And its below WAR and LOTRO on this gamelist? NCSOFT deserves more praise then that? GWs makes WAR look like childsplay.....LOL

give it a little while. you will figure out why it isn't on top when you run out of things to do in a couple months and realize that you have wasted your time with GW

I downloaded the trial and soon realized that the combat system is extremely bad, but the biggest turnoff for me was the inability to jump.  Jumping the best part in any game, If I can't jump, I won't play.

So I actually think this game is over-rated.

So you only played about 5 minutes? I guess that's enough time to judge any game right? Oh well, there are other games out there for you.

Originally posted by ZSlaya

Originally posted by Ethian

Originally posted by susanto1228

 

 

  Guild Wars is underrated.  But, it is not boring.  If you have just started playing GW I envy you.  I've been playing it since it started and even though you can only reach level 20 there is many many things you can do.   Create a 55 monk and rule GW.  Venture into Underworld and Tomb of Primeval Kings with a band of barrage rangers and watch the arrows fly.  Run people with your deverish or Warrior across continents for cash.   Enter into  Fissure oF Woe in search of treasures. Really I can go on and on, it's just endless and this isn't even Factions which is Awesome.  Seriously if some of you haven't tried GW you are missing out.

 

My thoughts as well. I've just started playing it (trilogy + expansion) and its honestly one of, if not the best MMOs I've played since starting with EQ1. And its below WAR and LOTRO on this gamelist? NCSOFT deserves more praise then that? GWs makes WAR look like childsplay.....LOL

give it a little while. you will figure out why it isn't on top when you run out of things to do in a couple months and realize that you have wasted your time with GW

 

GWs has more depth in both Pve and PvP then any other MMO I've played....and its free! Its not possible to waste your time playing GWs. The more I play the more the thought put into this game amazes me. You can mix and match classes from a total of how many classes is there? 10-12? That makes for a hell of alot of replayability for anyone if ask me.

GWs is under-rated simply because most dont consider it a "real" MMORPG and overlook it. IMO the thought and depth put into this game makes most other MMOs look bad....unless of course you cant overlook the instancing and lack of a persistant world. I say bring on the instancing!! I've not experienced lag since playing GWs and I'm loving it. :-)

Originally posted by Brif

I downloaded the trial and soon realized that the combat system is extremely bad, but the biggest turnoff for me was the inability to jump.  Jumping the best part in any game, If I can't jump, I won't play.

So I actually think this game is over-rated.

No jumping? Thank god...no more kids hoping around like their tweaking off pepsi to ruin the immersion of an MMO. No jumping does nothing but increase the ingame emmersion for myself. When is it ever usefull in an MMO anyway? Unless your pvping, hoping around like a goof ball...AoC *cough*
 

First two episodes were super cool, but third one was boring as hell, i never managed to finish it.