After reading several players comment about how no  one would group in a game unless they were forced by goals or mechanics to do so, I realized the sad truth about modern MMOGs; they're largely programmed and populated by social misfits and outcasts whose only hope of being accepted or admired by a group is if grouping is forced on everyone.  In other words, the casuals - those with lives outside the game - are forced to group up with the internet game junkies and addicts if they want to achieve the higher rewards; in fact, the casuals have to become like those junkies and addicts if they ever want to see top game content.

This is why they have such an inapprorpiate, hostile reaction to such reasonable suggestions as equal rewards for equal solo effort, and offline advancement systems, ranting and raving if even one such game is considered; if such games are made, then casuals will flock to them and abandon the misfits, leaving them no one to feel superior to, and offering them no solace from their social ineptitude by being the targets of their ridicule and condescension (see: psychological transferrance).

This is why current MMOG communities suck; they are built on the dynamic of rewarding those who are the least socially skilled the the most socially problematic in real life, those who believe that "community" is based solely on how your specific "build" can be used by the guild for everyone to get what they want. That's what these people believe "community"is about; what you can offer them as a function of end-game rewards.

They're clueless as to what real community is about, and why people - good, socially adept people - will group up and even raid for no other reason than to have a good tme together, whether or not it brigns them exclusive, superior rewards. They'll group up for in-game beer drinking contests and dance-a-thons, and then all run naked to fight the biggest dragon around ... not because it's going to get them any gear ... but because it's fun.

You see, people who function well in a community aren't about trying to exclude others from rewards; they're about helping everyone get them, because real community isn't about who has what gear (and who doesn't); real community is about who has the best stories, the best sense of humor, or the best attitude.  People who have good social skills advocate for equal rewards; they don't advocate that people be deliberately excluded just so a few can feel superior.

This is why MMOG communities currently suck; they attract socially inept people that come to such games to force others to have to accept them in their groups and guilds, because they are designed so that only the most socially inept and disconnected people can achieve the highest rewards.  The less time you spend in real life relationships... the bigger and badder you will be online.

Build a game dedicated to the casual gamer through equal solo rewards and offline character development, and I guarantee you'll see a much better, well-adjusted and thriving community - a real community, not just guilds of users stepping over everyone to get their next piece of gear. 

Judging by your post, you're the problem.

I don't see it that way at all. I see it exactly like a football game. It's a team based game. I like team based games. I don't think playing football, basketball, soccer or any other team based game is a bunch of misfits "forced" to play with one another.

It's all people that like to play a team based game.

I like solo games. I loved playing Fallout 3. I hate playing MMORPGs solo, because the content sucks compared to something like Fallout 3.

I love playing in groups in MMORPGs because not only do I like single player games like Fallout 3, I also like team based games.

Why does liking team based games make me a misfit that wants to force anything on anyone? Is everyone that plays soccer, football, or basketball misfits that force people to group with them?

I don't think so. The game just isn't the game without a team. You got to pass the ball, and that's what makes it fun. In an MMORPG, you got to group so the party can become a team and be much greater than the sum of the parts. That's what makes it fun, IMO.

I dont' care if you never play the same game I do, and certainly don't want to force you to joing a basketball team, a soccer team, a football team, or play a group friendly MMORPG.

If it's equal rewards for solo play, it's not a team based game any more. I can score points on the basketball court all by myself, I can run a touch down all by myself, I can score a goal in soccer all by myself, I can do the MMORPG content all by myself. You might enjoy that, but it's not a team based game anymore.

the problem with your whole idea is that you assume all the people who want forced group content are socially inept.  that sweeping generalization is completely wrong.  its like saying everyone who likes vanilla icecream has an IQ below 90.  you can't attach personal preferance to what a person is like, because their choice on what to like about a single thing might have nothing to do with anything else.

this sounds kinda tin-foil hat-ish to me.  all the social outcasts are out to get the "normal" people and ruin their games.

While that was a bit ranty I mostly agree. However I don't think your answer to the problem is the solution. The exact opposite actually. Forcing people to group together and *stay* together for a longer period of time is what is missing in most MMOs.

I think there is a reason many people will tell you (myself included) that FFXI had the best community in any MMO they have ever played. It's because we had to count on eachother and spend time together. In order to even progress we needed eachother. And after awhile you'd get to know the people even those that weren't in your guilds ect.

Also we had to *stay* together. I think this is the key. Fighting, killing, and leveling was slower in FFXI and could take hours.  Since most players needed a group, you would get to know the players through out the day.

In more recent MMOs you would group together just to do an instance or killing a tough mob for a quest or whatever. You  are hardly together long enough to make a connection and get to know one another.

Originally posted by Majinash

the problem with your whole idea is that you assume all the people who want forced group content are socially inept.  that sweeping generalization is completely wrong.  its like saying everyone who likes vanilla icecream has an IQ below 90.  you can't attach personal preferance to what a person is like, because their choice on what to like about a single thing might have nothing to do with anything else.

 

this sounds kinda tin-foil hat-ish to me.  all the social outcasts are out to get the "normal" people and ruin their games.

I think it would be quite the opposite. The socially inept do not thrive in a group based game. That was the deal with the original EQ. If you were an asshole, word would get around, and no one would group with you, and you were screwed.

Help me get my corpse?

Uh, aren't you the guy that was just a jerk to me a moment ago? Get it yourself!

You don't make it very long in a grouping game if you are socially inept.

Generalize much?

Originally posted by natuxatu

While that was a bit ranty I mostly agree. However I don't think your answer to the problem is the solution. The exact opposite actually. Forcing people to group together and *stay* together for a longer period of time is what is missing in most MMOs.

I think there is a reason many people will tell you (myself included) that FFXI had the best community in any MMO they have ever played. It's because we had to count on eachother and spend time together. In order to even progress we needed eachother. And after awhile you'd get to know the people even those that weren't in your guilds ect.

Also we had to *stay* together. I think this is the key. Fighting, killing, and leveling was slower in FFXI and could take hours.  Since most players needed a group, you would get to know the players through out the day.

In more recent MMOs you would group together just to do an instance or killing a tough mob for a quest or whatever. You  are hardly together long enough to make a connection and get to know one another.

This is correct because in FFXI we learned to get along and work together as a team. It's what mmorpgs are about, grouping to  accomplish goals together and having a good time.

Nevermind, this thread is pointless.

so basically your saying that people who want to play and group up in a game that is online/multiplayer is a social outcast?

Or heck even people who just enjoy an actual challenge in a game, is a misfit somehow?

wtf?

 If you want a solo game why are you playing an MMO? And if I'm playing an MMO I better be able to be superior to someone. We all work hard for our rare items, our money, our rare mounts, and whatever else the MMO you're playing allows for. MMO communities are exactly like real life. Why do you think people strive to have the most expensive luxuries in RL? Humans are competitve and we crave power. We want to feel like we have some sort of worth, that's why these things are so popular.

Either stop b*tching or GTFO.

<Taru>   <Dance>  <Please>  (`_`)

OP, I just can't help but think you walked straight out of the early MMO days when bragging rights and tightly knit community actually mattered, even though it may have not been as instrumental in the actual game contribution as it is today.

Basically, it's not about inept and anti-social people, it's about the general state of mind that's radically different today from the "ye old days", mainly because of the quick fix/instant gratification system that modern MMOs provide (I believe WAR tried to provide bragging rights and see how that turned out) to players and, more importantly, because good old TIME IS MONEY become more and more evident as the genre evolved. Casuals make up most of the today's communities and it is exactly becase of THAT they want to make up the most of their play time, unlike the inept who live and breathe the very game they play, as you've put it. These hardcore, or however you want to kill them, are a very vocal minority in most MMos and what I'm trying to say is that you can't pin the guilt of "making the community pathetic" on just one group of game's players base, it has to be seen all together.

I have no problem if they make solo mmorpgs.

Make massive solo multiplayer online role playing games.

You don't even put the ability to group in the game. There is no group content. There is no raiding, no quests, no Mobs, no dungeons that cannot be solo'ed.

You can solo the entire game, while you chat with other people running by and soloing the entire game like you.

Fine with me. I'm not playing it, but they can certainly make them for the OP.

The only thing that makes an MMORPG challenging in the least, is grouping.

Playing an MMORPG solo is like, I don't know, watching American Idol, or counting sheep. It's mindless, and requires no effort, and it's a way to waste time rather thoughtlessly.

I think THAT is waht the solo player is looking for.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I have no problem if they make solo mmorpgs.

Make massive solo multiplayer online role playing games.

You don't even put the ability to group in the game. There is no group content. There is no raiding, no quests, no Mobs, no dungeons that cannot be solo'ed.

You can solo the entire game, while you chat with other people running by and soloing the entire game like you.

Fine with me. I'm not playing it, but they can certainly make them for the OP.

The only thing that makes an MMORPG challenging in the least, is grouping.

Playing an MMORPG solo is like, I don't know, watching American Idol, or counting sheep. It's mindless, and requires no effort, and it's a way to waste time rather thoughtlessly.

I think THAT is waht the solo player is looking for.

Exactly. What's the point? I think the suggestion of a solo MMO is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.

Originally posted by Meleagar

After reading several players comment about how no  one would group in a game unless they were forced by goals or mechanics to do so, I realized the sad truth about modern MMOGs; they're largely programmed and populated by social misfits and outcasts whose only hope of being accepted or admired by a group is if grouping is forced on everyone.  In other words, the casuals - those with lives outside the game - are forced to group up with the internet game junkies and addicts if they want to achieve the higher rewards; in fact, the casuals have to become like those junkies and addicts if they ever want to see top game content.

I HONESTLY don't understand why EVERY mmo player who doesn't act like "jesus"  is a pimply faced, nerd-raged tween who has no life and is a complete loner/outcast/misfit.

These generalizations are ridiculous. Kinda like "scammers are stupid" or "Only idiots play WoW", which are both obviously completely false.

 If everyone is going to have to exact same items from soloing by the end of the game WTF is the point? 

Solo and Team dynamics are not compatible unless ALL toons are completely and irrevocably equal......which is silly.

Take a look at WoW, When grinding no matter your class your DPS/hour is going to be similar to any other class(Barring things like Prot pld)

THAT WHAT YOU WANT?  Forced equality

I played FFXI, I loved the hell out of it. Soloability was never in the equation as it was a Group game.

I played WoW, I loved the hell out of it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to make EVERYTHING in the game elite and require a group to kill it.

Solo and Group are two different concepts that realy don't mesh well togethe.

You want Solo go play SWtoR. It's solo oriented but I'm sure it will be an awesome experience. And I am definately buying it.

You want Grouping wait for FFXIV. It will be awesome as well. And I am definately buying it.

Dont expect a decent meshing of Solo and group. it aint gonna happen. it will either be Solo, or Group or Solo with Group dungeons(WoW), that's it......no really.....QQmore.

To the OP - find a single RPG and play by yourself.

Problem solved.

Originally posted by grndzro

Dont expect a decent meshing of Solo and group. it aint gonna happen. it will either be Solo, or Group or Solo with Group dungeons(WoW), that's it......no really.....QQmore.

You can argue with the QQmore part, but the rest seems irrefutable.