Originally posted by Phelcher

Originally posted by briboi

Just wanted to pass this on to hopefully change some opinions had about Darkfall. Let me just say I applaud the developers for trying something besides playing the me-too game with World of Warcraft.

Link

 

 

 

 

Design philosophy and implamentation are TWO very distinct things.

 

Nobody is saying Aventurine didn't have a great idea, we are saying Aventurine knew they were not capable of providing it and worse yet, didn't have the experience or competence to even make a beginner mmorpg.

As $12 million bucks later, we are left with an extremely amature mmorpg, that even Asian free-2-play mmo offer greater quality, polish and code.  Darkfall is very shoddy game, bording on being a scam. The fact that Tasos knows this, but sold or passed the game off to investors as more than what it is (for personal gain)...  upsets a community that thought they got rid of shysters like this.

Darkfall has not built upon any of the succeses or game features that brought people here in the first place.  It is more than obvious that Tasos was not a gamer, had very little knowledge of past features and mechanics and just pieced sh!t together as he went.

Any veteran gamer can tell you that the game's mechanics are all rudemntary and amature. The is nothing complex under the hood and the reason the game is so shallow. Newbies can't see this, because they cannot piece the skill tree in their head and understand how it's fake, etc.

 

Darkfall is a flop, because Tasos Flambouras is inept. Had another company made this game, it would probably be a mild success, not a complete flop!

 

 

l the while keeping them a secret. Therefore, when it came time to dropping the NDA, Darkfall was just a shell

Have you actually played DF? My god man you are talking out of your ass. DF is the best MMO on the market right now, the combat system wipes away the mundane repetative shite that is EQ and its clones (WOW) and breathes fresh air in the genre.

How is the game amaturish? The launch was not great but they are an independent company. Name me one, just one game that has full twitch based combat, thousands of concurent players, no instances and actually works like DF does. There are none. Darkfall is a masterpeice of coding.

Good for you AV. Good for you for daring to be different and actually pulling it off. 

Originally posted by javac

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

The other threat to publishers with different approaches is an increased "expectation standard" then is formed and all future content has to match or exceed it. This is often very hard to roll back.

This is why many publishers involve themselves mostly in restricting content rather then expanding it. This is universally true is just about all industries as well.

Also, there is the "we dont need publishers" affect which is a big concern. So its three issues all in all:

1. afraid to make risks

2. do not want to raise the required expectations of the end users

3. (and this is the worst nightmare). If a game succeeds without publishers, that can create a new world for consumers the publishers would perfer them not to see, a world without them.
 

there is also the issue that many (younger) players are so used to WOW-clone-type MMOs that they cry wildly about any game that doesn't replicate WOW-type features like predictable, easy PVE, auction houses, i-win button special attacks, etc.

 

Negative. Despite many fanboi  attempts to convince people Darkfall had some sort of meaningful PvE or crafting prior to launch I haven't heard any outcry for the game to replicate WoW features. People who like WoW play WoW and don't buy Darkfall. This is a fiction and you'd be better off talking about what the game is instead of what no one actually wants it to become. Oh and there is no easier PvE than bugged mobs so shennanigans. 

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by javac

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

The other threat to publishers with different approaches is an increased "expectation standard" then is formed and all future content has to match or exceed it. This is often very hard to roll back.

This is why many publishers involve themselves mostly in restricting content rather then expanding it. This is universally true is just about all industries as well.

Also, there is the "we dont need publishers" affect which is a big concern. So its three issues all in all:

1. afraid to make risks

2. do not want to raise the required expectations of the end users

3. (and this is the worst nightmare). If a game succeeds without publishers, that can create a new world for consumers the publishers would perfer them not to see, a world without them.
 

there is also the issue that many (younger) players are so used to WOW-clone-type MMOs that they cry wildly about any game that doesn't replicate WOW-type features like predictable, easy PVE, auction houses, i-win button special attacks, etc.

 

 

Negative. Despite many fanboi  attempts to convince people Darkfall had some sort of meaningful PvE or crafting prior to launch I haven't heard any outcry for the game to replicate WoW features. People who like WoW play WoW and don't buy Darkfall. This is a fiction and you'd be better off talking about what the game is instead of what no one actually wants it to become. Oh and there is no easier PvE than bugged mobs so shennanigans. 

please explain the huge PVE outcry in DF then? and the numerous official forum polls that have shown repeatedly that over 50% of DF's playerbase came directly from WOW. of course the vast majority of WOW grindslaves aren't going to like or play DF, but there is a significant proportion of all the PVE-based MMOs that long for better PVP and a game that doesn't hold your hand so much.

by DF's standard, all uninstanced mobs in WOW are bugged because they just stand there and auto-attack back until dead.

Just gather up as many friends as you can and retruit rest and be like 30 people and you can camp people trying to level and just kill them until they quit the game. Do this enough times until there is none left on the servers and then you can start killing eachother. Hurray for balanced griefers yay!

the problem with your statement is their poor implementation and game design as a whole which just fubars anythings. They failed hardcore for something that had potential. Then they left out 95% of what they promised.

Originally posted by javac

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by javac

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

The other threat to publishers with different approaches is an increased "expectation standard" then is formed and all future content has to match or exceed it. This is often very hard to roll back.

This is why many publishers involve themselves mostly in restricting content rather then expanding it. This is universally true is just about all industries as well.

Also, there is the "we dont need publishers" affect which is a big concern. So its three issues all in all:

1. afraid to make risks

2. do not want to raise the required expectations of the end users

3. (and this is the worst nightmare). If a game succeeds without publishers, that can create a new world for consumers the publishers would perfer them not to see, a world without them.
 

there is also the issue that many (younger) players are so used to WOW-clone-type MMOs that they cry wildly about any game that doesn't replicate WOW-type features like predictable, easy PVE, auction houses, i-win button special attacks, etc.

 

 

Negative. Despite many fanboi  attempts to convince people Darkfall had some sort of meaningful PvE or crafting prior to launch I haven't heard any outcry for the game to replicate WoW features. People who like WoW play WoW and don't buy Darkfall. This is a fiction and you'd be better off talking about what the game is instead of what no one actually wants it to become. Oh and there is no easier PvE than bugged mobs so shennanigans. 

 

please explain the huge PVE outcry in DF then? and the numerous official forum polls that have shown repeatedly that over 50% of DF's playerbase came directly from WOW. of course the vast majority of WOW grindslaves aren't going to like or play DF, but there is a significant proportion of all the PVE-based MMOs that long for better PVP and a game that doesn't hold your hand so much.

 

by DF's standard, all uninstanced mobs in WOW are bugged because they just stand there and auto-attack back until dead.

 

 

 

 

WoW wasn't built to Darkfall's standard any more than Darkfall was built to WoW's. WoW isn't Darkfall's problem. Darkfall is Darkfall's problem. Try to stay relevant will you? Any PvE outcry in darkfall has to do with it all being bugged, unbalanced and with huge gaps in their skill ranges. It's also even more grindarrific than most pure PvE games so if the "grindslaves" are complaining it takes too long to skill up it must really suck don't you think?  Your polls are shit. Most of the WoW people quit months ago and the polls weren't restricted to people who played the game to begin with. The game isn't about PvE. Forcing people to participate in piss poor PVE for hours to be able to PvP is nonsensical. Increase the rewards for PvP, remove the need to grind PvE and solve the basic problem.

Originally posted by FreedomBlade

Originally posted by Phelcher

Originally posted by briboi

Just wanted to pass this on to hopefully change some opinions had about Darkfall. Let me just say I applaud the developers for trying something besides playing the me-too game with World of Warcraft.

Link

 

 

 

 

Design philosophy and implamentation are TWO very distinct things.

 

Nobody is saying Aventurine didn't have a great idea, we are saying Aventurine knew they were not capable of providing it and worse yet, didn't have the experience or competence to even make a beginner mmorpg.

As $12 million bucks later, we are left with an extremely amature mmorpg, that even Asian free-2-play mmo offer greater quality, polish and code.  Darkfall is very shoddy game, bording on being a scam. The fact that Tasos knows this, but sold or passed the game off to investors as more than what it is (for personal gain)...  upsets a community that thought they got rid of shysters like this.

Darkfall has not built upon any of the succeses or game features that brought people here in the first place.  It is more than obvious that Tasos was not a gamer, had very little knowledge of past features and mechanics and just pieced sh!t together as he went.

Any veteran gamer can tell you that the game's mechanics are all rudemntary and amature. The is nothing complex under the hood and the reason the game is so shallow. Newbies can't see this, because they cannot piece the skill tree in their head and understand how it's fake, etc.

 

Darkfall is a flop, because Tasos Flambouras is inept. Had another company made this game, it would probably be a mild success, not a complete flop!

 

 

l the while keeping them a secret. Therefore, when it came time to dropping the NDA, Darkfall was just a shell

Have you actually played DF? My god man you are talking out of your ass. DF is the best MMO on the market right now, the combat system wipes away the mundane repetative shite that is EQ and its clones (WOW) and breathes fresh air in the genre.

How is the game amaturish? The launch was not great but they are an independent company. Name me one, just one game that has full twitch based combat, thousands of concurent players, no instances and actually works like DF does. There are none. Darkfall is a masterpeice of coding.

Good for you AV. Good for you for daring to be different and actually pulling it off. 

Everything about Darkfall and Aventurine is amature.... anyone can tell you that.  Pick any aspect of Darkfall.. I will discuss how it's amaturely coded and amaturely implamented and how that specific aspect didn't even meet current standards. Let-alon raise the bar or take any game mechanic to the next level.

Darkfall is trying to sell itself as a Class A MMORPG and it is not.  Not my fault, but Tasos should've had more self respect and released that game @ $30, with $6.99 monthly fee and nobody would've been upset with their amature product.

Darkfall is a budget game, with an embezzeled price tag of $12 million. The developer is piss-poor and has made almost every rookie mistake you can. Tasos didn't even know about other failed MMORPG and what led to their demise and followed the same path.

Aventurine has NEVER mad a video game before and they will never make another, they were amatures trying their luck in the MMORPG market and failed!

Freedomblade....your siggy is causing seizures...

Back to topic:

When DF was released and people complained that the PvE wasn't there, the fanbots said that people who play DF are too "hardcore" for PvE and it isn't needed.  It was just "fluff".

Now, they are defending the PvE....I don't get it...

Originally posted by junzo316

Freedomblade....your siggy is causing seizures...

 

Back to topic:

 

When DF was released and people complained that the PvE wasn't there, the fanbots said that people who play DF are too "hardcore" for PvE and it isn't needed.  It was just "fluff".

 

Now, they are defending the PvE....I don't get it...

 

You and me both mate.

I don't have any bad feelings toward DF, not really. I do have a major problem with the 'fans' who have done more 180 degree turns than an ice skater in a 'do a 180 degree turn' competition. They also offer no answers to very basic questions (Sean is yet to answer any of my points, he ignores them).

They also cannot understand that their views hurt their game.

I have news for you take a look at the post above that post of mine you referred to  and the poster. Thank you very much for proving my point. hehe

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

I have news for you take a look at the post above that post of mine you referred to  and the poster. Thank you very much for proving my point. hehe

 

Now that post makes sense. Yours don't make any sense.

Originally posted by briboi

Just wanted to pass this on to hopefully change some opinions had about Darkfall. Let me just say I applaud the developers for trying something besides playing the me-too game with World of Warcraft.

Link

 

 

 

Few years ago yes but they fastly transform darkfall into ezmode and player base are very happy to accomidate and helping accomplish this, by afk-macro/exploit and devs just dumb down game more and more.

Its still alot different then WoW sure but its not even a remotely what it should have been years ago we discussed on forumfall:(

Originally posted by Evasia

Few years ago yes but they fastly transform darkfall into ezmode and player base are very happy to accomidate and helping accomplish this, by afk-macro/exploit and devs just dumb down game more and more.

Its still alot different then WoW sure but its not even a remotely what it should have been years ago we discussed on forumfall:(

For someone that used to play Darktide, I'm frankly surprised.   We finally have an open FFA Sandbox game with full loot, city building and sieging, and so much more, but you aren't playing.   The Exploit stuff does suck, but AV is genuinely banning people; just report them and watch.   The afk macroing is much improved since the ability to raise skills is now dependent on actually hitting a player or mob; which is vastly different from how it was at release when you could just shoot/cast in the air.   All in all, I think the NA server is going to rock because of the changes made since release.

Even placing "WoW" in the same paragraph of a comment about DFO is rediculous.   There is zero comparison between the two.

What I don't get, is you loved AC2, which I liked a lot too by the way, but there was absolutely NO consequences to death.   In DFO we have serious consequences to death, even more so than on Darktide in AC1.    It's a shame really that a player with your gaming backround can't stick it out.    I hope you try it again some time in the future; why, well I guess I have a soft spot in me for old Darktide players lol

-CC

Originally posted by ChinaCat

We finally have an open FFA Sandbox game

We really don't, we have a game made by enthusiasts, whether it's made well or not is neither here nor there. We have an online deathmatch game that people both enjoy and hate in equal measures (I find it a fun distraction). We have the possibility of a nice political game if the numbers don't drop any further. We have a game that is open ended.

We do not have a sandbox game. This definition for Darkfall needs to end right here right now. A sandbox is just that, it's not even a game, it's software that says to you "Here, have this world, and do whatever you like in it, create anything, do anything, we have no rules here, this is your sand, mould it how you like, the only thing we are providing is the box - have fun!".

Now, like this or not, the only thing that comes close to this is Second Life, a piece of software that I played around with for a few weeks. Why did I quit it? Because I couldn't understand why when people were given a true sandbox they chose to create sex clubs, 'realistsic' genetalia, furry clubs and so much more. Now, say what you will, defend or hate Second Life, THAT is a sandbox. Unlimited tools to create unlimited horrors and the occasional genuine masterpiece of creative thinking.

"Hurf durf there are no levels (yeah right) and if I grind enough I can spawn pre made houses and rafts" Is NOT a sandbox.

Originally posted by javac   

 

please explain the huge PVE outcry in DF then?

Because a MMO can have open PvP and still have substantial PvE content to enjoy as well.

Even PvP'ers enjoy having "other stuff to do" sometimes. By many accounts - of people who *are* playing it - DF lacks PvE content substantial enough to fill that gap for any amount of time.

I don't understand why PvE content is such "taboo" to many so-called "hardcore PvP'ers". Must be along the same reason why so many are offended by anything more than a few shades above monochrome... Like color is a threat to their manliness or something. Never could understand that.

It's not like if someone is questing they go into some "no-PvP" mode. People questing/exploring/harvesting/whatever are still open to attack. Having PvE content in an open FFA PvP environment actually makes it more interesting because you have to constantly look over your shoulder... even when doing quests, etc. etc.

You know how many times I talk to family or others I know who play WoW and talk of how difficult it is to complete quests in that game because players from the opposing faction hang around Quest NPCs, etc? They attack anyone who comes along trying to finish or pick up a quest. They lie in hiding, waiting for people on quests to come by and ambush them... They sneak in while players are fighting tough mobs and attack, etc. etc.

Good luck PvE'ing in Lineage 2 (grinding levels, questing, etc) if you're in a dangerous area... especially if you're a member or ally of a warred clan or alliance. As soon as you leave any town or village, you've got a big bulls-eye on you, and it's common for hunting parties to go out looking for wartags to fight. You have to constantly be looking over your shoulder.

Just because you're not in "PvP mode" at a given moment, doesn't mean it's not going to come to you anyway. In my experience, having PvE content does not hinder PvP at all.

In a nutshell... PvE content *can* have a place in an open PvP game... It doesn't make the game "carebear"... it simply gives players more options.. more things to do... while always under the threat of attack from other players. The greater amount of "things to do" there are, the more players have to keep themselves entertained, the longer they're likely to hang around (provided the content is done well and worthwhile). In a MMO... More is More.

and the numerous official forum polls that have shown repeatedly that over 50% of DF's playerbase came directly from WOW.

A large number of WoW players check out many other MMOs looking for something new to move on to that will be at least as playable - if not enjoyable - as WoW was to them.

Even if they aren't particularly crazy about WoW overall, lacking anything at least as good to move to, WoW is their best bet.

Some of those people could well have come to DF looking for the type of game DF was hyped to be in interviews, in the features list, etc - only to find it's nothing like that. So... they leave disappointed, only to be mocked and labeled as "carebears" by the DF loyal who can't seem to comprehend that someone wouldn't like DF as much as they do, immediately labeling them as "whiners" who "can't handle a FFA PvP game".

I mean... I know it sounds crazy to some of the DF loyal... but maybe DF just doesn't live up to the hype Tasos and AV spun for so long for many players? It's very possible, you know.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by javac   

 

please explain the huge PVE outcry in DF then?

Because a MMO can have open PvP and still have substantial PvE content to enjoy as well.

Even PvP'ers enjoy having "other stuff to do" sometimes. By many accounts - of people who *are* playing it - DF lacks PvE content substantial enough to fill that gap for any amount of time.

I don't understand why PvE content is such "taboo" to many so-called "hardcore PvP'ers". Must be along the same reason why so many are offended by anything more than a few shades above monochrome... Like color is a threat to their manliness or something. Never could understand that.

It's not like if someone is questing they go into some "no-PvP" mode. People questing/exploring/harvesting/whatever are still open to attack. Having PvE content in an open FFA PvP environment actually makes it more interesting because you have to constantly look over your shoulder... even when doing quests, etc. etc.

You know how many times I talk to family or others I know who play WoW and talk of how difficult it is to complete quests in that game because players from the opposing faction hang around Quest NPCs, etc? They attack anyone who comes along trying to finish or pick up a quest. They lie in hiding, waiting for people on quests to come by and ambush them... They sneak in while players are fighting tough mobs and attack, etc. etc.

Good luck PvE'ing in Lineage 2 (grinding levels, questing, etc) if you're in a dangerous area... especially if you're a member or ally of a warred clan or alliance. As soon as you leave any town or village, you've got a big bulls-eye on you, and it's common for hunting parties to go out looking for wartags to fight. You have to constantly be looking over your shoulder.

Just because you're not in "PvP mode" at a given moment, doesn't mean it's not going to come to you anyway. In my experience, having PvE content does not hinder PvP at all.

In a nutshell... PvE content *can* have a place in an open PvP game... It doesn't make the game "carebear"... it simply gives players more options.. more things to do... while always under the threat of attack from other players. The greater amount of "things to do" there are, the more players have to keep themselves entertained, the longer they're likely to hang around (provided the content is done well and worthwhile). In a MMO... More is More.

and the numerous official forum polls that have shown repeatedly that over 50% of DF's playerbase came directly from WOW.

A large number of WoW players check out many other MMOs looking for something new to move on to that will be at least as playable - if not enjoyable - as WoW was to them.

Even if they aren't particularly crazy about WoW overall, lacking anything at least as good to move to, WoW is their best bet.

Some of those people could well have come to DF looking for the type of game DF was hyped to be in interviews, in the features list, etc - only to find it's nothing like that. So... they leave disappointed, only to be mocked and labeled as "carebears" by the DF loyal who can't seem to comprehend that someone wouldn't like DF as much as they do, immediately labeling them as "whiners" who "can't handle a FFA PvP game".

I mean... I know it sounds crazy to some of the DF loyal... but maybe DF just doesn't live up to the hype Tasos and AV spun for so long for many players? It's very possible, you know.

 

Well put Mike,

But, people have been telling these wow'tards the exact same thing since beta, they just won't listen, because they are so conditioned to defend their newness... so anything that isn't hardcore... isn't for these new "tough guys". Thus they never visualize PvE, because they never witnessed challenging PvE.

Old school player have, EQ set the bar for open ended encounters and taking months to learn how to defeat such creatures. Matter of fact, if you take a typical Darkfall clan and plop them down into any classic EQ dungeon, they would cease to function and wouldn't even know how to take direction or even delineate authority or orders, quickly.

Let-alone make it out alive.

So, your point stands!

Originally posted by Phelcher

..... 

 

 

Well put Mike,

But, people have been telling these wow'tards the exact same thing since beta, they just won't listen, because they are so conditioned to defend their newness... so anything that isn't hardcore... isn't for these new "tough guys". Thus they never visualize PvE, because they never witnessed challenging PvE.

Old school player have, EQ set the bar for open ended encounters and taking months to learn how to defeat such creatures. Matter of fact, if you take a typical Darkfall clan and plop them down into any classic EQ dungeon, they would cease to function and wouldn't even know how to take direction or even delineate authority or orders, quickly.

Let-alone make it out alive.

 

So, your point stands!

Too long to quote in full, first and foremost, great writing from Mike
 

I am amazed many self labeled hard core PVPers are actually very short sighted and limited zergers.  They were unable to see the challenge presented by many PvE encounters.  EQ is one of the early few with very daunting PvE encounters, from finding way into a dungeon to clearing it, holding it and waiting for the bosss to spawn.  I remember trying to clear PoA.  I lost lvl 60 so many times with dying, we have to camp normal bosses to recover lvl 60 and fill up the xp bar, just to try PoA again.

WoW instances from MC all the way to Sunwell, and now icecrown presented another form of challenge.  The boss fights were unique, varied, and without the use of mods, requires perfect coordination from each member to survive.  Mistake of 1 person will sometimes wipe the raid.  Coordination, training and teamwork is prime.  I actually remember putting up a soul well and running around it, with orders from guild leaders over vent, right at the footsteps of thaddius to get the team to perfect cooperation.  We spent 30 minutes, practice and wiping, before we get down our first thaddius.  That was months ago.

DAoC was another game in which coordination matters.  A team to hold the gate, a number of scouts hiding in critical points to watch for enemy movements and spam channels, and a leader leading the main attack force, waiting to hit.  Several hundreds coordinated, holding keeps, waiting at gates, patrolling the roads and spying on the enemies.

DF so far is just a bunch of kids zerging, cheating/hacking, and afk macroing.  I totally fail to see how this game is at all hard.  Chasing a single poor sob for hours on end and ganging him is not hardwork.  Mindless zerg is not hard work.  Gloating and inflating egos over msg boards about a game seems to smell something wrong.  In the days when we play DAoC, no one goes to board to talk about the greatness of a game.  They go onto the boards to talk about specific aspects of the game, from talent spec (I remember arguing over the need to go 5 full ranks for shamans to get stamina recovery) to specif keep defence, or ambushing at the entrance of darkfall dungeon of DAoC.  Elitistjerks shows how scientific the WoWers go, in performing 10,000+ repeated controlled experiments and plotting statistical summary and charts with controlled features, to show how each skill or each attribute helps in DPS/HPS or TPS.  That is skill, knowledgeable discussions, and interesting reading.  Nothing from DF fans are interesting reading, just a repeated "DF is the best game out there" empty slogan.

Serious, do we ever tout being hardcore in SWG UO or DAoC during those days?  I hardly remember any.  We go online to talk about the details of the game, aspects, not boasting.  This is something seriously lacking in DF.  There is nothing to seriously talk about, or to do apart from afk macroing and club each other silly with the same skill tree, same mouse click and random run around.  There is something seriously lacking in the community of DF, they do not have interesting things to talkl about, apart from empty ego inflation and tossing personal insults.

---

 

Originally posted by javac
so "gen one" MMOs had a full 3d world with no instances and FPS aiming, player-craftable cities, mounts, ships, vehicles and supported mass battles in multiple regions within the same game world? please do tell us more... if anything, WOW is the real gen one MMO, doesn't stop it from being by far the most successful.

---

 
Yes. Perhaps not all in one package. and no, Wow is not a generation one MMO. Stop blaming others for your ignorance. That, is also, not what I was talking about, and I do not have time to explain everything to you in a way you would understand, I have given up on having any discussion with you that makes any sense.
 

---

Originally posted by javac
this is just like your comment about how EVE fleet battles with 100s of players have never crashed or lagged.

---

 
Good thing i never said that. Once again, you did not understand the clearly posted comment. Its like you cant think critically.
 
 

---

Originally posted by javac
...as informed and objective as a bible-bashing farmer from the mid-west speaking about evolution. 
 

 

 

---

 
Yes, you are.
 

---

Originally posted by javac
there is also the issue that many (younger) players are so used to WOW-clone-type MMOs that they cry wildly about any game that doesn't replicate WOW-type features like predictable, easy PVE, auction houses, i-win button special attacks, etc.

 

 

---

This is an incredibly biased, and ignorant statement. I bet you also think being EMO (Or some other "counter culture")somehow makes you an unique snowflake.

You do realize you are most likely the single most detrimental entity to this games popularity in this community, yes?

Originally posted by Phelcher

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by javac   

 

 

 

 

Well put Mike,

But, people have been telling these wow'tards the exact same thing since beta, they just won't listen, because they are so conditioned to defend their newness... so anything that isn't hardcore... isn't for these new "tough guys". Thus they never visualize PvE, because they never witnessed challenging PvE.

Old school player have, EQ set the bar for open ended encounters and taking months to learn how to defeat such creatures. Matter of fact, if you take a typical Darkfall clan and plop them down into any classic EQ dungeon, they would cease to function and wouldn't even know how to take direction or even delineate authority or orders, quickly.

Let-alone make it out alive.

 

So, your point stands!

A friend of mine who was big into Anarchy Online, back in the pre-Shadowlands days. He'd tell me about all the fun they had in PvP, while out doing PvE content.

One example that comes to mind is when they'd go to Camelot to fight Tarasque. They'd have to have 2 different groups. One to take on Tarasque... and another to guard the entrance to fend off any other Orgs who might show up for PvP, trying to screw up their raid and/or claim Tarasque for themselves. The PvP was epic from his descriptions. And he had many more besides that.. other raid bosses... tower fights.. random encounters, etc.

I can speak to that end in Lineage 2 as well. There are several raid bosses who drop so-called "Boss Jewels"... Zaken, Ant Queen, Orphen, Frintezza, Valakas, Baium, etc. etc. Those are some *very* good (and valuable) pieces dropped from highly contested raid bosses. You will quite often see the more powerful alliances attempting to keep those bosses on "lock-down", always at the ready to fend off anyone else who might come and try to take them. You can imagine the PvP that takes place between the more powerful alliances on a given server when any of them are "up". Though the raid bosses are PvE content... they are a major source of mass PvP in the game.

So.. I really think people who believe that PvE in a PvP MMO is a bad thing need to re-think their position. Not only is a lot of PvE content quite relevant in a PvP game... it can also be the source of some of the most intense PvP encounters.
 

Darkfail, will it ever be good?! (No)

tl;dr

your e-view points are made of SRS BIZNESS.