This columnist looks like Richard Nixon.

Very interesting read! It covers my main issues with MMOs, and one reason I stayed away from MMOs in the early days. I come from a pen and paper background myself, and the one thing which always frustrated me about MMOs is simply, you kill those 10 gnolls and the repop behind you. For the next folks. It entirely always kills my feeling of having an impact. Sure, when I play a Pen and Paper game, I know thousands of others do that too. But I dont see them. In my perception it is me and my friends only who did that. There is a story which happens to me and my group. No one else. That is what made me feel heroic. Not the loot, not the drops, no - the fact that I dont see the world repop right behind me for the next one. It is like you go to a stage wizard, and he shows you the tricks. It spoils the fun. That is for me what spoils MMOs, I can see the mechanics working, and I can see it is all just fake. It makes it difficult to feel pride about your accomplishments, when that boss mob is back 5 minutes later. At least that is my biggest issue.

I recall vividly when I heard first time of UO, when it was one of the only 2 MMOs. I let a UO gamers show it to me... and I was totally baffled why anyone would play that. Why should I want to be a TAILOR? Or a Blacksmith?? To this very day, crafting is entirely beyond me. I mean, I'd play tetris or Pacman rather than crafting. I mean... its WORK, hello? And why would I like to be an anonymous worker-nobody again, like in RL? And then people always were ganked. Killed. It was hardcore. Which is also something that escapes me. Escapism is my drive to go into a game, computer or not. I want to feel great, like a hero or warrior or adventurer, as a contrast to the average nobody I am like all of us in RL. Why should I feel like a powerless everybody again?? That is why things like hardcore gameplay, death penalities or crafting are entirely illogical to me. They all serve to reinforce this concept that I am a weak nobody. And sorry I have that all day for free already. No need to pay a MMO for that again! If I want hardcore penality experience, I go to my jobcenter and I get it all hardcore and penalities for free! (Hello fellow Germans, who know what I speak of.^^)

I think the WOW model is one of the worst way, always hanging new carrots, driving people with greed and envy... I find that too "restless" and artificial. I value MMO memories of doing some adventure with good friends. Thats why I dont understand that soloism trend at all. Whats it worth doing it all alone? For me it is the shared experience, the adventure you can talk with you friends year later "hey, you still recall when we hunted those rare boars on Tatooine for days?", and it brings a smile on all your friend's faces. I bring this SWG memory for a reason. The planets were so big, you rarely saw too many other players really at the exact same thing. It made the illusion that your team made something genuine easier. In crowded, densly populated worlds that is much more difficult, at least without heavy instancing, which I dont like either. LOTRO book quests were also great, and AoC Tortage, even tho the latter was way to solo-oriented. LOTRO book and the cutscene / event character of the highlights of the stories in LOTRO are a good way, and looking at SWTOR I hope that is the future trend of MMOs, bringing finally this feeling you really did something special, and not farm 78687 mobs of X for the gear to kill mob Z asf.

One way you can make people more special is class specific experiences. I recall when I was in that Ranger training camp in Vanguard, where I got some special skills at the end of the quest-line, which was only for Rangers, that was cool. Or in my brief days in WOW, when my Druid got access to the Druid valley, where at that time only Druids could enter. I felt so special! I liked that, and it didnt matter that other Druids could enter it, not but it generated a feeling of "us selected few". Or in Free Realms, when I did Medic quests, which really gave me the feeling "hey I am a doctor"; I did stuff which was only for that class in the world, and for the first time I had a really good feeling for a healer class, because it was connected to special tasks in the world only my class could do. I found that kind of special tasks for classes very interesting. Or you could think of special racial quest-lines or theme parks, like Imperial & Rebel Themepark. There are many things which have already been tried, but far too less and rarely.

Yeah, mmo's make everyone a hero and the 'special' person running around saving the world blablabla thereby making everyone some bleeding copycats and nobodys. I like how AoC tell you this backstory in the beginning that you're destined to save stuff etc. All that lose its shine when you realise every other person you see is all the same. Reminds me of a joke Yathzee took on that - You're the chosen one or some shit but it all get a little less epic when you have that nimbling thought in the back of your mind that all the other players you see also is the chosen one, all dickheads who are plotting your murder, all special and all some bleeding twatmonkeys I tend to agree...Heroes don't exists in mmo's. We're all just the same old buggers doing the same old stuff over and over again. That become quite ironic in City of Heroes. No heroes in City of Heroes..hahah

I'm logging off now...

I've never felt more of a hero than when I've been apart of a small, very skilled PvP group in Lineage 2. Sometimes we would have to take on overwhelming odds in order to be victorious. In Lineage 2, being a hero really didn't mean saving the day, no one really cared if you killed Baium at the top of Tower of Insolence. In fact people often resented you for it, because you had something they would hope to achieve and you are standing in your way. On the way to becoming a hero you sometimes become the villain. That sometimes is how it works in these games, yes you become a hero in that people admire and look up to you, but they want to achieve what you've done and then envy and jealousy take over. You eventually become both a Hero and a Villain.

Like previously said I love being apart of a team and working together to complete a task. Whether if it's a sport like Hockey and assisting on the winning goal or if it's in an MMO where I pulled off a huge AoE combo that was the deciding factor in our PvP win. I don't play MMO's for the quests, the text or any of that. I simply play because they are the best games with the mindset of "if you and friends work together you can achieve anything". I don't play to be immersed or to feel like a guy in 16th century with a sword swinging and decapitating infidels.

Just a Hardcore PvP players take on this subject.

We were once heroes, today we are but mercenaries lost in a forest of gear updates and titles.

It was that pride in our realm that made us feel we were heroes of the realm. Otherwise what does being better (in any way) in the game matter?

The 3 realm system is essential. It stops one realm dominating the game permantly, I remember my realm in DAOC allying with another to push back the third.

To have real RvR you must have realm pride and this must come beofore guild and personnal achievment. Making the best leveling area RvR dependent and giving realms bonuses for holding areas does that. Making dungeons a realm effort helps too.

CodenameXen talked about the decline in the heroic behaviour of helping other players. Spot on, that’s dieing out as well.

I wonder how much of our MMO problems have occurred due to a reduction in the average age of those who play? What with cartoon graphics, the introduction of consoles and so on it’s a wonder anyone over 25 plays anymore.

Me I keep waiting for the day SoE unveils the practical use of the idea it patented several years ago. The idea they patented was to use ultra sonic pulses to stimulate the brain for fully in your head vr, with a reciver attached to your head to read what your brain did to that an react in turn. The basic idea if applied would be the most impressive idea ever in gaming, course that patent was aquired three years ago an after it was no news since. Until you get a living world in mmo's your not going to feel heroic. The cloest I ever felt was playing in muds and EQ back in the day, when they did GM events that effected the world.  Those events took on a almost legendary aspect as "You had to be there to believe it" became a big part of it.  The players that came later always had to deal with the fact they missed those moments.

With the current degrading returns in mmo's I don't see us ever having those moments again, with things like the architect in CoH. As well as many other games turning to the idea of player built content and sand box worlds you see an increase in what I call lazy gming. The gods that just build a world in a story then walk away suck, it's the ones that keep mixing it up that are fun. It's the same with devs and gms. If you build it then stop, it gets dull.

For me i feel the guild that down The Sleeper are all heroes, the level 40 player at FF also...

Just me...

---

I do believe that the heroics in MMOs come from working as a team. Whether it is a raid or giant PvP fight, working together is the reason I have played MMOs from the beginning. Like the D&D groups of old, it is fun to have a role and play it well. For now write in and let me know if you have ever felt heroic in an MMO, or if MMOs just make us all the same.

---

Ironically, very seldom do I ever feel "heroic" when working with a team, though beating an instance with a small group can occasionally feel that way. I am MUCH more likely to feel "heroic" when I accomplish something on my own.

The game that did the best job of taking me through a story and giving me a sense of accomplishment was Guild Wars, and I completed all three campaigns and the expansion, pretty much all by my badself (using henchmen/Heroes) -- only grouping in that game when a friend was online or I just felt a bit more social.

Thus, I would respectfully take issue with your statement that "the heroics in MMOs come from working as a team". It is, oddly, working in a team that is most likely to destroy any sense (for me) of feeling heroic, because (again, for me) feeling heroic is linked to immersion, and too many real-life players do their level best to speak OOC, act like spoiled brats and cretins, and destroy immersion: "We so totally owned that $%&#-er!" Yeah, right. "Heroic." NOT.

*Sigh*

I do wish more MMOs would offer players more options on how to complete content.... I would play with people for casual fun but group only with NPCs/solo/RP-ers (a rare breed) when I felt like immersion and feeling "heroic."

I never feel heroic doing the kind of hoops the game has in place for me to jump though.   More often than not I feel like crap while somebody using an exploit or who bands together with a regular group freight trains over me.   Then there are the guilds who have people who take advantage of players in order for them to get on the A list for grouping.  Its all rather depressing.  

Back in the earlier days of mmorpgs I felt more heroic because then there was a tendency for players to really be a hero helping out other players.   Now days it seems its all about selfishness, not much heroics in that.  

Originally posted by Scot

We were once heroes, today we are but mercenairs lost in a forest of gear updates and titles.

It was that pride in our realm that made us feel we were heroes of the realm. Otherwise what does being better (in any way) in the game matter?

The 3 realm system is essential. It stops one realm dominating the game permantly, I remember my realm in DAOC allying with another to push back the third.

To have real RvR you must have realm pride and this must come beofore guild and personnal achievment. Making the best leveling area RvR dependent and giving realms bonuses for holding areas does that. Making dungeons a realm effort helps too.

CodenameXen talked about the decline in the heroic behaviour of helping other players. Spot on, that’s dieing out as well.

I wonder how much of our MMO problems have occurred due to a reduction in the average age of those who play? What with cartoon graphics, the introduction of consoles and so on it’s a wonder anyone over 25 plays anymore.

I can relate to this. I play RF Online and its 3 realm system, Accretia(cyborgs), Bellato(namely cute dwarves) and Cora(elves). I do feel like whenever  I can run to low lvl areas when they are yelling "raiders in 213", as I play Accretia. I might or might not wipe out the raiders, but just the rush of running and helping my fellow racemates makes me feel a real hero!!

Another thing is when I go raiding the other races realm, I do feel like a hero when taking the fight to them, even better when there is a guild raid!!! when we get back to our hq and start counting how much kills and CP(contribution points) we got really makes the day!!

So summing up, I think feeling heroic in a game is just a matter of personal liking, just IMHO

I dont know who decided to use words like "heroic" and "epic" in MMORPGs, but it dont fit the definition of the words at all. The majority of the games is linear, with time, money  or hacks as the deciding factor for who the "best" players are. And even then, the characters are rarely unique in any way.

The definition of  someone "heroic" / "epic":

"A person of distinguished courage or ability, of legendary or mythical proportions"

Most games are about as epic as a trip to McDonalds.

Maybe my memory has finally gone to crap, but I seem to rcall Mr. Fuller having written articles here before. Please tell me I'm not ready for shuffleboard and Geritol already.

For some, the "Heroic" moment could be presented through completion of storylines. I know I thoroughly enjoyed the Windurst line of missions on FFXI. Aion looks like, from screens, that it would put the player in a pivotal role of storyline. PvP may be the only measure for some on discerning "heroic" players from others, like how people pick their favorite players in sports teams.

This article brings up some interesting points.

First of all, the traditional idea of a hero runs counter to what most MMO's are about: Team play.

In most stories, being a hero is an individual thing.  Sure, many heroes have groups with them, but when it comes down as to what defines a hero, that is pure individuality.

Consider the most iconic group story published:  The Lord of the Rings.  For all the fellowsip, for all the teamwork, it came down to one guy's will.  He failed, for were it not for Gollum biting the finger off, Frodo would have folded like a house of cards, and you will notice, that Frodo was on his own (Sam spectated) and the rest of the fellowship was fragmented into smaller groups through much of the books.

This means that MMO's need more ways for player's to distungish THEMSELVES.  While solo play could foster this, the fact is TEAM PLAY could make a better stage for rising heroes, but current MMO design does not allow for it.  For instance, what does the guy who pulls off a miracle and saves the raid from wiping by downing the final boss alone against all odds get?  Other than a pat on the back, he gets nothing, and if his DKP is not high enough, he might not get any gear at all.  I know this happens for it happened to me.

There needs to be rewards and recognition in place for those who stand out or make the team fly.  As it stands, the current MMO models do exactly the opposite, be it loot tables, resources and even guild structures.

The other problem, is in the name of forced grouping, characters actually get weaker as the game goes on.  Think about it.  In WoW, my level one noob can solo any mob his level without difficulty.  As the levels increase, a funny thing happens, he loses his combat edge against equal level opponents.  Some classes hold their edge better than others, but all lose killing power as they level up when compared to opponents of their same level.  In some games, just to knock down a same leveled foe requires a group.  How is dependency on others heroic?  It isn't.

The key lies in balancing individual needs with those of the team and the community.  For the most part, MMO's foster individual competition while forcing such players be on a team.  It is counter productive and it is certainly not heroic.

Originally posted by nefermor

I never feel heroic doing the kind of hoops the game has in place for me to jump though.   More often than not I feel like crap while somebody using an exploit or who bands together with a regular group freight trains over me.   Then there are the guilds who have people who take advantage of players in order for them to get on the A list for grouping.  Its all rather depressing.  

Back in the earlier days of mmorpgs I felt more heroic because then there was a tendency for players to really be a hero helping out other players.   Now days it seems its all about selfishness, not much heroics in that.  

Agree with you.  I used to play MMOs giving stuff away (even in the heavy grinders).  I did the same in WOW for about 2 months.  Then I relalised that I was pretty much the only one and some of the epics I gave away to ppl (to use for themselfs) ended up in AH.

MMO gaming is a selfish game now.  "its only a game" and if you get caught doing things - you can always just switch servers - even looks - genre - or faction.....  Thats RPG ?  

Is it good for the mmoRPG genre to have Developers doing things ONLY because it gives them extra money - even when it is causing ppl to cheat - steal - lie and then run off ?   I dont think so.  There is nothing heroic about it.  Its pretty much cowardly act - MAINLY from the developer that hides behind statements like "BY demand of the players" ...  When everyone knows it has NOTHING to do with their game - only about making money.

Originally posted by Korhindi

This article brings up some interesting points.

First of all, the traditional idea of a hero runs counter to what most MMO's are about: Team play.

In most stories, being a hero is an individual thing.  Sure, many heroes have groups with them, but when it comes down as to what defines a hero, that is pure individuality.

Consider the most iconic group story published:  The Lord of the Rings.  For all the fellowsip, for all the teamwork, it came down to one guy's will.  He failed, for were it not for Gollum biting the finger off, Frodo would have folded like a house of cards, and you will notice, that Frodo was on his own (Sam spectated) and the rest of the fellowship was fragmented into smaller groups through much of the books.

This means that MMO's need more ways for player's to distungish THEMSELVES.  While solo play could foster this, the fact is TEAM PLAY could make a better stage for rising heroes, but current MMO design does not allow for it.  For instance, what does the guy who pulls off a miracle and saves the raid from wiping by downing the final boss alone against all odds get?  Other than a pat on the back, he gets nothing, and if his DKP is not high enough, he might not get any gear at all.  I know this happens for it happened to me.

There needs to be rewards and recognition in place for those who stand out or make the team fly.  As it stands, the current MMO models do exactly the opposite, be it loot tables, resources and even guild structures.

The other problem, is in the name of forced grouping, characters actually get weaker as the game goes on.  Think about it.  In WoW, my level one noob can solo any mob his level without difficulty.  As the levels increase, a funny thing happens, he loses his combat edge against equal level opponents.  Some classes hold their edge better than others, but all lose killing power as they level up when compared to opponents of their same level.  In some games, just to knock down a same leveled foe requires a group.  How is dependency on others heroic?  It isn't.

The key lies in balancing individual needs with those of the team and the community.  For the most part, MMO's foster individual competition while forcing such players be on a team.  It is counter productive and it is certainly not heroic.

How far would Frodo have gotten on his own ? ... 

Ever done a boss beeing the last man standing ?

MMOs is ALL about teamwork.  Thats why we have diffrent classes that have strenghts and weaknesses.  Noone should get ANYWHERE without the support or help of others.  If you dont agree... then go play a single player RPG and dont ruin a perfectly good MMO with griefing and server-jumping.

Originally posted by Frobner

Originally posted by Korhindi

This article brings up some interesting points.

First of all, the traditional idea of a hero runs counter to what most MMO's are about: Team play.

In most stories, being a hero is an individual thing.  Sure, many heroes have groups with them, but when it comes down as to what defines a hero, that is pure individuality.

Consider the most iconic group story published:  The Lord of the Rings.  For all the fellowsip, for all the teamwork, it came down to one guy's will.  He failed, for were it not for Gollum biting the finger off, Frodo would have folded like a house of cards, and you will notice, that Frodo was on his own (Sam spectated) and the rest of the fellowship was fragmented into smaller groups through much of the books.

This means that MMO's need more ways for player's to distungish THEMSELVES.  While solo play could foster this, the fact is TEAM PLAY could make a better stage for rising heroes, but current MMO design does not allow for it.  For instance, what does the guy who pulls off a miracle and saves the raid from wiping by downing the final boss alone against all odds get?  Other than a pat on the back, he gets nothing, and if his DKP is not high enough, he might not get any gear at all.  I know this happens for it happened to me.

There needs to be rewards and recognition in place for those who stand out or make the team fly.  As it stands, the current MMO models do exactly the opposite, be it loot tables, resources and even guild structures.

The other problem, is in the name of forced grouping, characters actually get weaker as the game goes on.  Think about it.  In WoW, my level one noob can solo any mob his level without difficulty.  As the levels increase, a funny thing happens, he loses his combat edge against equal level opponents.  Some classes hold their edge better than others, but all lose killing power as they level up when compared to opponents of their same level.  In some games, just to knock down a same leveled foe requires a group.  How is dependency on others heroic?  It isn't.

The key lies in balancing individual needs with those of the team and the community.  For the most part, MMO's foster individual competition while forcing such players be on a team.  It is counter productive and it is certainly not heroic.

 

How far would Frodo have gotten on his own ? ... 

Ever done a boss beeing the last man standing ?

MMOs is ALL about teamwork.  Thats why we have diffrent classes that have strenghts and weaknesses.  Noone should get ANYWHERE without the support or help of others.  If you dont agree... then go play a single player RPG and dont ruin a perfectly good MMO with griefing and server-jumping.

 

You do realize that after the 1st book, the fellowship was fragmented into groups of 2 or 3? (Frodo, Sam)  (Merry & Pippen), (Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli) etc.  Yeah, the stuff of "raidng"...not.

Your second question:  Yes, which is why I said what I said.  I solo'd Gar in MC for the last 10K and prevented the wipe, and what did I get?  Nada, nothing, zip.

Your 3rd paragraph is very true for current MMO's.  It is also an extremely myopic view of what is possible. Your mode of thinking is why the genre is so stale.  If you really read what I said, you will see that I was suggesting a way for team play to coexist with individual goals.  The last sentence of your post is well... pure bs.

" If you dont agree... then go play a single player RPG and dont ruin a perfectly good MMO with griefing and server-jumping."

Now this doesn't make sense.  What does server jumping and greifing have to do with what i said?  This be pure trolling and your attitude typifies the true destroyer of MMO communities:  Jerks.

It is not solo play options; it is having to be force grouped with jerks.  That is what kills communities and is the number one reason folks don't want to group up.   Putting up with such idiocy is as far from heroic as possible and is not fun.

Nothing wrong with a two or three man team, but if you dont want to be in a team why play a game that has other players in it? Look at the unofficial GTA multiplayer servers, even there it is better to be in a team, more fun, more roleplaying. Those servers are not designed for teaming like a MMORPG is, but teaming up makes for a better game. Nuff said.

Originally posted by Scot

Nothing wrong with a two or three man team, but if you dont want to be in a team why play a game that has other players in it?

I'm not really sure how this comes into the topic.  Then again I'm actually sick of seeing it (don't be offended.. its not you).

You know what the biggest MMO there will EVER be is?  Real life.  It has the biggest monthly fee as well...  player housing.. player towns all kinds of crazy stuff.  I've yet to ever invite total strangers to follow me around every where I go.

In fact you could say in that real life MMO I am pretty anti social... yet I've managed to find all kinds of treasure on my own.  Crafts.. harvest... even done a few raids (solo).

Now because I log into a virtual world I have to group because other people are there?  It seems like a.. well really strange concept.

You know in real life I can solo a mouse?  I mean like really easily.

Yet in an MMO I've seen a mouse kill an entire group... sounds pretty heroic.

Now to be a bit more serious...

Grouping is like making friends.  You don't force that.  Its a social exercise.  On the other hand you have to also realize that some people like to be alone.  I'm not sure why the virtual world is supposed to have some special rules that the "real world" doesn't have.

What does make sense is that your personal abilities are only going to take you so far.  So if you have these lofty goals.. you will need to combine your personal abilities with others.  The larger the goal.. the more people you will need.

However, if your personal goals are simple... then you really don't need a zerg to go harvest a pebble.

I'm not really sure why this is hard to grasp?

I don't think I've ever felt heroic in an MMO (back to the topic).  Growing up I read a lot of stories from all around the world about dragon slayers.  As this was an interesting topic to me...

I remember a shoe makers assistant that solo'd a dragon.

I even remember a child that solo'd a dragon...

This wouldn't even come close to making sense in an MMO.  I certainly wouldn't think it would make sense.  Yet at the same time if you run a 24 man raid (or larger) to kill something a 6 year old child killed... how could that feel heroic?  (they are both "fantasy" stories... but the dragon slayer stories long pre-date mmo's).

In the end.. games should be about "fun" which is why they are an entertainment product.   Some people have fun mostly alone.. some people like to harvest or craft (not usually group actitivy) and many people like to get together and do large scale projects (group content/raids).  If its not "fun" what is the point?  Yet I don't think I've ever thought it was heroic.

At least for me its all about.. fun (yes I said that a few times).

Without putting too much merit into the pros or cons of team-based "heroic" gaming, this is a subject that needs discussion, because it is directly connected to the longevity of these games.  When players start feeling everything is routine, they'll start asking why they are bothering with the game at all.

One thing to consider is a compromise.  Imagine a dungeon/instance where the party or raid had to split up for different paths, or was forced to do so, and fend for themselves somewhat.  That way, they might occasionally lay waste to dozens of mobs only to link up to confront the boss itself.

Another thing is that many MMO boss fights are one mob vs. the players.  That's... kinda weak to me.  I can see doing it once in a while, but most people prefer taking on numerous mobs all at once.  The challenge can be equivalent to fighting fewer but tougher mobs, and even the most jaded hardcore raider has to admit a great satisfaction in using epic gear to mow down mobs that gave them trouble a few levels ago.

I dunno.  The problem is pretty complex, and unless someone masters the psychology and sociology of gaming to any great degree, I suspect we'll be debating about it for some time.