Originally posted by templarga

Why should I go to another website and look for it? Shouldn't it be on the official website?

But see, its a no win situation. You don't care because you knew the info. You cannot and will not empathize with those of us who went to Aion's website and looked for it in detail, but it isn't there.

However, if I told you I went to 10 websites, you would tell me I should have gone to 11. if I told you I went to 100, you would tell me I should have gone to 101.

No, my guild didn't choose not to find it. We have tons of players in the Chinese version just like a lot of people here played it too. What happened is that, those of you in the Chinese version, ASSUMED everyone knew it and didn't think it mattered. That is what happened.

Wait wait wait wait...whoa....hold on, alright all you're doing is helping my stance here man.

So...wait, you're going to tell me that YOUR GUILD HAD PEOPLE IN THE CHINESE VERSION??

Your -GUILD-....your own -GUILD-....had people....playing the full version.....

How in the HELL did none of you guys who didn't play the chinese version manage to NOT ask your OWN GUILDMATES some SIMPLE questions? Honestly? Really? You are completely blowing my mind right now with how utterly incomprehensable this is.

Maybe your guild needs to downsize or something man. Cause in my clan we talk to each other about games we're interested in. I was the first person in my clan to play the Chinese version and people asked me all sorts of questions. How did you manage not to ask your own guildies these same questions?

As far as websites goes...No, I wouldn't have told you to go to one more. First I would ask, "Did you post your question on a forum?" if you answered "Nope" then I would have first laughed then said that's all you needed to do. Which is exactly what I'm doing right now. I'm not telliny you to google Aion then click on all the websites that pop up, all you needed was to post ONE question on ONE forum....question would have been answered......problem would have been solved.....months ago.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by templarga

Nope the confusion comes from the fact I associated the game more with DAOC and you associated it more with Lineage 2. Our experiences are what made you interpret it correctly and me not so much.

However, to me, its also an issue with game design and faulty game design at that. Since PVP isn't introduced until later levels and you can experience the first what, 20 levels PVP, free people have YET to experience this in the beta tests.

What has happened is that people, like me, who played the first few beta weekends and liked the game, feel betrayed because the game relies more on PVP than we first thought. Maybe its our mistake for not going to some god awful fanboi website and reading up on the game. Shouldn't the official website be enough?

 

And we're back to the actual problem, not a symptom. I played DAOC, it was my first and favorite MMO. I just happen to have a broader range of experience.

The PROBLEM is that you chose not to go to another source for information. "God awful fanboi website"? Is that really necessary, really? It's a freaking FANSITE....SITE....FAN.....do the math. Clearly you've never even bothered to check it out because there is PLENTY of debate over the game. As long as things are kept civil the mods over there aren't going to close something. If you guys had posted a simple, "Hey, we're not sure what exactly these Rift things are, can anyone help?"  you ALL would have known about them MONTHS ago.

Let me throw your question right back at you: Should a website with NO FORUM FOR THE GAME be enough? I can't think of a single game out there where every single feature is explained in every little explicit detail on just a website. That's what forums are for.

Even then are you seriously going to try to use that as a defense? Think about it: "So we have this incomplete information and even though there are these links to other websites with more info we aren't gonna click on em. Those sites are just fanboi websites and we're too leet."

That's how you make yourself and your guild sound, just being honest. Again, the info was out there...FREELY AVAILABLE.....you chose not to click, type a few simple words and get your answers.

Ah, we are at the root of the issue.

You blame the consumer because its easy for you - you are just SO smart and all other consumers are stupid.

I blame the company for not having a good enough website.

How much info is enough? I go buy a car. I go to Ford's website and buy one and the car has issues. I take it to you (let's say you are the mechanic) and your response would be "You are a moron....why didn't you go to this obscure website and read about this issue".

I expect the information to be on a website. I do not expect a consumer to spend any extra time going to various websites LOOKING for the information. I doubly expect major information regarding game design, PVP and the like to be on a website.

Take the issue with canceling the order - the non-refundable message is right there on the page where it should be. The information is made readily available. Why can't the information about a major design feature be made readily available too?

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by templarga

Why should I go to another website and look for it? Shouldn't it be on the official website?

But see, its a no win situation. You don't care because you knew the info. You cannot and will not empathize with those of us who went to Aion's website and looked for it in detail, but it isn't there.

However, if I told you I went to 10 websites, you would tell me I should have gone to 11. if I told you I went to 100, you would tell me I should have gone to 101.

No, my guild didn't choose not to find it. We have tons of players in the Chinese version just like a lot of people here played it too. What happened is that, those of you in the Chinese version, ASSUMED everyone knew it and didn't think it mattered. That is what happened.

 

Wait wait wait wait...whoa....hold on, alright all you're doing is helping my stance here man.

So...wait, you're going to tell me that YOUR GUILD HAD PEOPLE IN THE CHINESE VERSION??

Your -GUILD-....your own -GUILD-....had people....playing the full version.....

How in the HELL did none of you guys who didn't play the chinese version manage to NOT ask your OWN GUILDMATES some SIMPLE questions? Honestly? Really? You are completely blowing my mind right now with how utterly incomprehensable this is.

Maybe your guild needs to downsize or something man. Cause in my clan we talk to each other about games we're interested in. I was the first person in my clan to play the Chinese version and people asked me all sorts of questions. How did you manage not to ask your own guildies these same questions?

As far as websites goes...No, I wouldn't have told you to go to one more. First I would ask, "Did you post your question on a forum?" if you answered "Nope" then I would have first laughed then said that's all you needed to do. Which is exactly what I'm doing right now. I'm not telliny you to google Aion then click on all the websites that pop up, all you needed was to post ONE question on ONE forum....question would have been answered......problem would have been solved.....months ago.

Because many of us had already pre-ordered.

Remember in Aion PVP isn't an issue until 20+ so the issue HADN'T COME UP.

What should I post - "Tell me every design feature in the game from level 1-max"?

That is complete and utter BS and you know it.

Unless I am aware of an issue why would I post about it?

And guess what - when we were made aware of the issue people did post and ask for clarification...it was just too late because many had pre-order with the understanding that PVP was confined to the Abyss.

Originally posted by templarga

Ah, we are at the root of the issue.

You blame the consumer because its easy for you - you are just SO smart and all other consumers are stupid.

I blame the company for not having a good enough website.

How much info is enough? I go buy a car. I go to Ford's website and buy one and the car has issues. I take it to you (let's say you are the mechanic) and your response would be "You are a moron....why didn't you go to this obscure website and read about this issue".

I expect the information to be on a website. I do not expect a consumer to spend any extra time going to various websites LOOKING for the information. I doubly expect major information regarding game design, PVP and the like to be on a website.

Take the issue with canceling the order - the non-refundable message is right there on the page where it should be. The information is made readily available. Why can't the information about a major design feature be made readily available too?

Nooooo....your logic is off here.

Ok so you go to a buy a car, you go to the website to look at it's -features-. Ok, it's going to list all of it's features and then a brief little blurb about each feature. It's not going to have a glossary you can browse through that will explain everything in absolute detail.

For example: Car X comes with a fully installed turbo!

Ok, that's the feature blurb you would get on any wesbite, more or less. If you want to find out how that turbo affects engine life, maintenance, performance and what not you're going to HAVE to go to another source.

This is the exact same situation. This isn't even some obscure website, there has been a link to aionsource on the official website nearly since it went up.

Part of the problem is consumer intelligence, sure. I have learned and been taught throughout my life to inform MYSELF about purcahses I make. Whether it be a cell phone, car, mp3 player or what have you. The gaming industry itself warrants consumers informing themselves, especially these days.

Originally posted by templarga

Because many of us had already pre-ordered.

Remember in Aion PVP isn't an issue until 20+ so the issue HADN'T COME UP.

What should I post - "Tell me every design feature in the game from level 1-max"?

That is complete and utter BS and you know it.

Unless I am aware of an issue why would I post about it?

And guess what - when we were made aware of the issue people did post and ask for clarification...it was just too late because many had pre-order with the understanding that PVP was confined to the Abyss.

Wha? When did your guild mates start playing CH version?

I was playing it and up above 20 before pre-orders were even open because I wanted to check the game out. Even then the game features on the website make it fairly obvious that PvP would be a fairly large part of the game. It doesn't take a super secret decoder ring or anything. All it takes is just comprehension of a bigger picture. Ok so PvP features of the game as I recall reading them the first time I read them months ago.

-Fortess battles

-Aerial PvP

-Instanced PvP

-Abyss PvP

-PvPvE

-Killing OTHER PLAYERS TO EARN POINTS FOR GEAR.

That's a lot of different PvP stuff. How were you guys thinking this would only be confined to the Abyss? It doesn't specifically say anywhere on the website that it will be, just as it doesn't say it won't. Re-reading it now I can see how it is unclear, but that should have been unclear to people on their first read. My past experiences established a context in which I placed what I read, so I didn't have any problems. People will fewer experiences probably would have found it vague.

Either way going to one forum and posting one question months ago would have solved this problem. You didn't need to ask about every feature. I -have- seen people ask about just about everything and gotten responses on aionsource, so you could have though. You could have asked about any features you were interested in. I don't know why you wouldn't if it's something you're interested in.

-Most- people like to talk about their interests with other people that share those interests. So it's not like I'm saying anything unusual here.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by templarga

Ah, we are at the root of the issue.

You blame the consumer because its easy for you - you are just SO smart and all other consumers are stupid.

I blame the company for not having a good enough website.

How much info is enough? I go buy a car. I go to Ford's website and buy one and the car has issues. I take it to you (let's say you are the mechanic) and your response would be "You are a moron....why didn't you go to this obscure website and read about this issue".

I expect the information to be on a website. I do not expect a consumer to spend any extra time going to various websites LOOKING for the information. I doubly expect major information regarding game design, PVP and the like to be on a website.

Take the issue with canceling the order - the non-refundable message is right there on the page where it should be. The information is made readily available. Why can't the information about a major design feature be made readily available too?

 

Nooooo....your logic is off here.

Ok so you go to a buy a car, you go to the website to look at it's -features-. Ok, it's going to list all of it's features and then a brief little blurb about each feature. It's not going to have a glossary you can browse through that will explain everything in absolute detail.

For example: Car X comes with a fully installed turbo!

Ok, that's the feature blurb you would get on any wesbite, more or less. If you want to find out how that turbo affects engine life, maintenance, performance and what not you're going to HAVE to go to another source.

This is the exact same situation. This isn't even some obscure website, there has been a link to aionsource on the official website nearly since it went up.

Part of the problem is consumer intelligence, sure. I have learned and been taught throughout my life to inform MYSELF about purcahses I make. Whether it be a cell phone, car, mp3 player or what have you. The gaming industry itself warrants consumers informing themselves, especially these days.

And I think the consumer should be entitled to as much information as possible and I think the official website fails to deliver it. I do not believe that the consumer should have to go to multiple websites and ask questions. I think it is the responsibility of the company to deliver as much information as possible.

I do inform myself every chance I get. I use as many websites, magazines, etc.......as I can to make an informed decision. However I do not think it is the responsibility of a 3rd party to inform of stuff that should be official. And we are talking about a major design feature here. We are not talking about an obscure thing - we are talking about a major design feature that effects the entire game and how you play the game.

But we come back to that fact that how much is enough? How much information is enough? For you, it seems we should know everything about everything and unless you know every detail, you are making a poor decision. For me, there is a point where the consumer has done enough and the responsibility is back to the company (the opposite is true as well).

On this issue, I am simply stating, I looked at several places. Around the time of the first beta weekend, I read the forums here and other places. I checked the official website. I read stuff about the Rifts but it wasn't what I expected it to be in its final interpretation. I thought it would be in PVP zones - in other words, Rifts would allows access to certain parts of the Abyss (like certain keeps in DAOC).

it wasn't until a lot of poeple got higher than level 20 and began to discuss Rfits and how they work that I realized they opened up in the regular leveling zones. At that moment, I, like others, had already pre-ordered.

I hope that makes more sense.

 EDIT: Yes, I agree with you. That is a lot of PVP stuff and it sounds great. It does remind me alot of Lineage 2 (I played for a short time). However, I was under the impression that the leveling zones specifically  would be PVP free. PVP would be confined to place that were not the leveling zones. I have no problem with PVP at all.....I love it and grew up on it (DAOC as I mentioned) but I like PVP on my terms and not the game's terms. So when I found out that Rift's opened in the PVE leveling areas, it simply isn't the game for me.

See the disagreement between persepctives here is that he considers that game flawed in design.  The PvP is more of a bug.  Like Windows BSOD's.  They don't advertise them.  You consider the PVP (much as I do) to be the point of the game.  I mean it is being billed as a pvp game right?  So He just assumed that pvp was optional in a pvp oriented game.  Strange, Don't understand this.

To the OP.  You've been told this 50 times over, it doesn't matter why you don't like the game.  It doesn't matter you don't like how it was advertised on the NCSoft website.  What matters is you clicked the pay button when it said non-refundable.  Everything else is mute.  Consider it a life leasson, never buy a game from the company who designed it.  I learned that lesson few years back myself.  Just the way it is.  If your not sure, order from a real life store, not online.  Reason why, $5 at best buy nets you the preorder goodies in a nice package with no making you buy full game.  Worst case scenario your out a five spot not the full deal. 

As for an MMO, first thing you should do when interested is go to the fansites for the whole story, not doing it is just lazy.  NC Soft is not alone in only presenting the most high quality of information and media on their site.  All game sites do this.  Hell every business does.  The fact that you even had Guild members in the Chineese Game means you just didn't take an easy step when it comes to spending your money and ensuring its a good deal for you.

I'm sure you came here to rouse sympothy.  Even a way out of paying.  I feel for your lose of cash.  However what it comes off as a wow fanboi wanting to dis a game that many pvp oriented players are looking forward too.  A polished well built fun game designed around pvp and pve in the end game.  Not some half arsed game made by a few people in their closet.

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

Originally posted by odinsassassi

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by odinsassassi

Originally posted by Slythe

Originally posted by MustaphaMond 

And that was his choice to pay full price.  It was very clear about what he was getting when he did it, and if he didn't understand that, it's because he didn't read what he was buying.

THAT is the only relevant issue here.  He chose to buy the entire game at the time of purchase.  HE chose that.  NCSoft did not trick him.  The webpage where he bought the game clearly said "PREPURCHASE" and that it was NON-REFUNDABLE.  He won't get his money back because he consciously agreed to hand it over WITH CLEAR CONDITIONS AND EXPECTATIONS that refunds were NOT possible.

I have to agree with Mustapha here. NC did nothing shady, it clearly says "prepurchase." In the future, order from places like Gamestop so that even if you never go and pick up your game when it's released, the most that they might charge you is $5 for a restocking fee. But they wont charge you for the full price of a game when you preorder unless you physically go to the store and buy it.

 

Guess i feel its a little shady that they are selling a full version of the game but you arent really getting the full version until Sept. I guess i just personally think its dirty to sell something and not refund when you havent yet provided what your selling. What i mean is they are selling the full play all day all night if you want version of the game. Which you cant you can play limited beta events. Now if you havent yet received the full version you purchase hasnt happened yet. you havent received the goods. so technically he hasent purchased anything just the comitment to buy it when it does come out. I personally dont like this way companies do buisness you should be able to cancel somethign you havent yet received

 

No shady would be doing this and then putting their disclaimer at the bottom of a very long page you have to scroll through to find.

They put a very noticeable disclaimer on the payment option page that says you WILL NOT GET A REFUND. You don't have to scroll down at ALL. It's right there, in front of your eyes, they even italicize the entire thing and bold the DISCLAIMER part of it. It isn't shady, they didn't trick you, you chose not to read something right in front of your face.

This is exactly like complaining that you fell into a ditch when two hundred yards back there was a sign that said, "Warning: Ditch Ahead!" Seriously, just stop. It's not NCsoft's fault, it's yours, take some responasability for your actions.

Well for starters i pre ordered my game from EB canceled with no issues. So i have no actions to take resposibility for. Is what NCSOFT did legit and legal sure it is im just saying i dont think its a nice way to do buisness. Selling something with no refund that your not actually providing yet.
 

"i dont think its a nice way to do buisness" = wtf?

It's not the only way you can buy the game.  If it was, you have a point.  But, in reality, nobody is forced to buy from NCSoft using this method and it is very clear if they choose to do so.

Maybe you dislike it, but there are obviously enough people who buy the game this way to make it worthwhile enough for NCSoft to sell it this way.  Those who don't like this method of buying it all up front won't buy it that way.

Here's a comparison that works for what is going on in this thread (imo): sit-down restaurant vs. fast-food restaurant.

Your typical sit-down place lets you order, brings your food, and you pay AFTER you eat (this is how most of us are buying the game... we pay $5 for preorder beta access + the rest when it's release time).  Fast-food joints = you buy what you want ahead of time and then get the food afterward (which is like NCSoft selling the whole game at once, then the player playing betas/downloading it at release).

Now, take it a step further.  You're at the sit-down restaurant and decide you're not satisfied with your meal, the management won't help you out... easiest solution?  You refuse to pay (but will probably never get to eat there).  Good management would apologize before it got to that point, would give you the meal free, and give you gift certs so you come in again... They'd do whatever it takes to keep you as a customer.

Now, fast-food example... you buy a "#1" value meal, they make it up in a jiffy.  You get your food and there's a hair in it.  Ugh.  Obviously, you show the manager the food and ask for a refund, they almost always give you one (again, knowing happy customers are more valuable than $5 in food).  No problem with either example so far.

Okay, but what happens when you are at the fastfood place, you buy your meal, you get it... it's EXACTLY what you ordered and was advertised, but you decide AFTER you've paid and they've made the order that you want a cheeseburger instead of a whole big mac....  And up on the wall, or right by the register where you paid, it says "absolutely no refund!  AND THIS MEANS YOU!!!"

The OP is trying to take his value meal back with the lame reason "I just changed my mind," and we're all pointing out that clear sign that says "no refund/all orders final."

I know Mickey D's would give the refund probably no problem, but they are not in the wrong because they make you pay up front for what is not yet ready/made for you to consume.  You have a choice to pay up front and you made it by going there to eat.  If you don't like paying first before you've even received your product, then eat at the type of establishments that charge you accordingly.

It is not sensible to pass value judgments on companies for how they sell their product when it is clearly explained... and what's more, in this case there are more than one way to pay for the game.  OP feels buyer's remorse... he didn't want a big mac after all, and oh-so-sad... the manager is probably going to point at the "NO REFUND" sign, shrug his shoulders, and say "tough luck."

And you still want to fault the business for it's "shady" practice of their choice to have consumers pay up front?  Even after it's clear there are other places that serve the same kind of food where you can pay in a way that you'd prefer?

It's just crazy.

So just to be clear you comparing fast food to software selling software WTF well to use your example try this you order combo number 1 say its the big mac combo burger fries and a drink and what they actually give you is 6 individual fries and say see ya in 2 months for the rest of your order.  Than doesnt make sens but ya still pay full price. I agree buyer beware OP had other options. Doesnt excuse the one option being "odd" to me. You should be able to get a refund as long as you dont use the product. In this case the full version of the game.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by templarga

Because many of us had already pre-ordered.

Remember in Aion PVP isn't an issue until 20+ so the issue HADN'T COME UP.

What should I post - "Tell me every design feature in the game from level 1-max"?

That is complete and utter BS and you know it.

Unless I am aware of an issue why would I post about it?

And guess what - when we were made aware of the issue people did post and ask for clarification...it was just too late because many had pre-order with the understanding that PVP was confined to the Abyss.

Wha? When did your guild mates start playing CH version?

I was playing it and up above 20 before pre-orders were even open because I wanted to check the game out. Even then the game features on the website make it fairly obvious that PvP would be a fairly large part of the game. It doesn't take a super secret decoder ring or anything. All it takes is just comprehension of a bigger picture. Ok so PvP features of the game as I recall reading them the first time I read them months ago.

-Fortess battles

-Aerial PvP

-Instanced PvP

-Abyss PvP

-PvPvE

-Killing OTHER PLAYERS TO EARN POINTS FOR GEAR.

 

That's a lot of different PvP stuff. How were you guys thinking this would only be confined to the Abyss? It doesn't specifically say anywhere on the website that it will be, just as it doesn't say it won't. Re-reading it now I can see how it is unclear, but that should have been unclear to people on their first read. My past experiences established a context in which I placed what I read, so I didn't have any problems. People will fewer experiences probably would have found it vague.

Either way going to one forum and posting one question months ago would have solved this problem. You didn't need to ask about every feature. I -have- seen people ask about just about everything and gotten responses on aionsource, so you could have though. You could have asked about any features you were interested in. I don't know why you wouldn't if it's something you're interested in.

-Most- people like to talk about their interests with other people that share those interests. So it's not like I'm saying anything unusual here.

Also, just so you know, I did read the FAQ here in this thread:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/241712/The-ULTIMATE-Aion-FAQ-Updated-7509-Version-15-Patch-Notes.html

I wanted to quote parts of it:

"PvP-specific skills will be available for usage around level 40. The player can, however, still choose not to participate in PvP unless he/she wants to. (Possible Rumor)"

"For players who don't enjoy PvP, there will be various PvE activities to take part in such as raids, instanced dungeons and so on ? All connected to the great war. An example would be PvE players collecting items for big siege weapons to support their faction."

"Rifts are also possible routes to PvP, providing a gateway between the Asmodian and Elyos homelands."

"You can PVP in the Abyss and there will be some zones outside the Abyss where the Elyos and Asmodians will be able to interact."

------

The emphasis on that last quote is mine. I figured it meant PVP zones but it basically means "all but the newbie area" and cities I believe.

Again, I did my research and read a lot....it was just hard to find the info to be clear and exact. The quotes before that allude, to me, that PVP is avoidable and you can level and enjoy and play the game without having to PVP at all. The Rift system makes it mostly unavoidable.

Originally posted by templarga

And I think the consumer should be entitled to as much information as possible and I think the official website fails to deliver it. I do not believe that the consumer should have to go to multiple websites and ask questions. I think it is the responsibility of the company to deliver as much information as possible.

I do inform myself every chance I get. I use as many websites, magazines, etc.......as I can to make an informed decision. However I do not think it is the responsibility of a 3rd party to inform of stuff that should be official. And we are talking about a major design feature here. We are not talking about an obscure thing - we are talking about a major design feature that effects the entire game and how you play the game.

But we come back to that fact that how much is enough? How much information is enough? For you, it seems we should know everything about everything and unless you know every detail, you are making a poor decision. For me, there is a point where the consumer has done enough and the responsibility is back to the company (the opposite is true as well).

On this issue, I am simply stating, I looked at several places. Around the time of the first beta weekend, I read the forums here and other places. I checked the official website. I read stuff about the Rifts but it wasn't what I expected it to be in its final interpretation. I thought it would be in PVP zones - in other words, Rifts would allows access to certain parts of the Abyss (like certain keeps in DAOC).

it wasn't until a lot of poeple got higher than level 20 and began to discuss Rfits and how they work that I realized they opened up in the regular leveling zones. At that moment, I, like others, had already pre-ordered.

I hope that makes more sense.

 EDIT: Yes, I agree with you. That is a lot of PVP stuff and it sounds great. It does remind me alot of Lineage 2 (I played for a short time). However, I was under the impression that the leveling zones specifically  would be PVP free. PVP would be confined to place that were not the leveling zones. I have no problem with PVP at all.....I love it and grew up on it (DAOC as I mentioned) but I like PVP on my terms and not the game's terms. So when I found out that Rift's opened in the PVE leveling areas, it simply isn't the game for me.

Well, the problem here is that companies are not under any legal or honestly any ethical obligations to present that much information in such a fashion. Every product out there provides a list of features, small blurbs about those features that may or may not be vague and that's it. Every product, whether it's an ipod, a remote control, a ps3, car or whatever. That's how every single official game wesbite works, for the most part.

You get a list of features, maybe another few paragraphs on those features through links and that's it. In-depth details on products have ALWAYS come from additional sources. I do see a major difference here though, I have been following this game to some degree since I first heard about it like two years ago. Maybe once a month I'd check out Aionsource for new info, hell that's how I got the guide on how to get onto the CH version like three months ago.

If you don't like the way the pvp is set up then that's still cool, I respect that. I'm used to having action all over the place. Kinda why I'm hoping Mortal Online will be good ^_^, though I pre-ordered Aion since my clan has decided to go there for sure. So I'll make a merc squad out of a few of us if Mortal turns out alright and just play both. 30 bucks a month is still gonna be cheaper than a single night of drinking, best fun to cost ratio out there IMO. Except maybe when you have a gf that will jump you over a cute little five dollar random hello kitty thing, hehe. ^_^

Originally posted by odinsassassi

So just to be clear you comparing fast food to software selling software WTF well to use your example try this you order combo number 1 say its the big mac combo burger fries and a drink and what they actually give you is 6 individual fries and say see ya in 2 months for the rest of your order.  Than doesnt make sens but ya still pay full price. I agree buyer beware OP had other options. Doesnt excuse the one option being "odd" to me. You should be able to get a refund as long as you dont use the product. In this case the full version of the game.

The concept of all sales final is not new, to anyone and shouldn't be new to the gammer.  If you purchased the full game in a store (note not a preorder package), opened it for the beta key, then wanted to take it back, you'd get the same thing as buying it from the NCSoft store.  You were buying the game, they added the key to the account.  It said non-refundable.  To trully have a problem with this,  you've either had to live a sheltered life, or be a kid. 

All sales final, is a standard business practice, has been for many years.

Originally posted by templarga

Also, just so you know, I did read the FAQ here in this thread:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/241712/The-ULTIMATE-Aion-FAQ-Updated-7509-Version-15-Patch-Notes.html

I wanted to quote parts of it:

"PvP-specific skills will be available for usage around level 40. The player can, however, still choose not to participate in PvP unless he/she wants to. (Possible Rumor)"

"For players who don't enjoy PvP, there will be various PvE activities to take part in such as raids, instanced dungeons and so on ? All connected to the great war. An example would be PvE players collecting items for big siege weapons to support their faction."

"Rifts are also possible routes to PvP, providing a gateway between the Asmodian and Elyos homelands."

"You can PVP in the Abyss and there will be some zones outside the Abyss where the Elyos and Asmodians will be able to interact."

------

The emphasis on that last quote is mine. I figured it meant PVP zones but it basically means "all but the newbie area" and cities I believe.

Again, I did my research and read a lot....it was just hard to find the info to be clear and exact.

Well that's the fault of whoever posted that faq hehe. I'm pretty sure someone here on mmorpg.com makes all those entries, so if they did they should probably correct that. That FAQ right there uses extremely vague and confused language. Makes it sound like WAR to be honest. I never read that faq.....though to be honest I rarely read info that is posted on here like that lol. :3

Mortal Online does look great, I just am not at a point in my life where is viable for me to play it. :)

I mean PVP for me isn't a big deal, if and when I have the time, but I don't anymore.

And I came late to news about Aion. I first heard is was PVP only but the more I read, it seemed like there was going to be a lot of PVE elements above and PVP could be avoided. However, now, its seems the opposite.

And for me, it was a little frustrating and I do feel betrayed because I hated the idea of the game, then LOVED it, then hate it again. And its nothing against the game, I just wish the info was clearer.

Hope that makes sense.

EDIT: Exaclt, makes it sound like WAR which sounded like DAOC - my first MMO love and I was hoping Aion would recapture that. But, I don't think it will.

Originally posted by Maximos

Originally posted by odinsassassi

So just to be clear you comparing fast food to software selling software WTF well to use your example try this you order combo number 1 say its the big mac combo burger fries and a drink and what they actually give you is 6 individual fries and say see ya in 2 months for the rest of your order.  Than doesnt make sens but ya still pay full price. I agree buyer beware OP had other options. Doesnt excuse the one option being "odd" to me. You should be able to get a refund as long as you dont use the product. In this case the full version of the game.

 

The concept of all sales final is not new, to anyone and shouldn't be new to the gammer.  If you purchased the full game in a store (note not a preorder package), opened it for the beta key, then wanted to take it back, you'd get the same thing as buying it from the NCSoft store.  You were buying the game, they added the key to the account.  It said non-refundable.  To trully have a problem with this,  you've either had to live a sheltered life, or be a kid. 

 

All sales final, is a standard business practice, has been for many years.

Yar! Here here sirrah! Been a standard business practice for a very, VERY long time. Before the days of automobiles old......probably.

The Columbia record club is like the most notorious old reference to shady business. "Free stuff!" with ten pages of complex fine print they know no one is going to read. Twenty years later you finally get out of your contract...lol. Annnnyway.

Originally posted by Maximos

Originally posted by odinsassassi

So just to be clear you comparing fast food to software selling software WTF well to use your example try this you order combo number 1 say its the big mac combo burger fries and a drink and what they actually give you is 6 individual fries and say see ya in 2 months for the rest of your order.  Than doesnt make sens but ya still pay full price. I agree buyer beware OP had other options. Doesnt excuse the one option being "odd" to me. You should be able to get a refund as long as you dont use the product. In this case the full version of the game.

 

The concept of all sales final is not new, to anyone and shouldn't be new to the gammer.  If you purchased the full game in a store (note not a preorder package), opened it for the beta key, then wanted to take it back, you'd get the same thing as buying it from the NCSoft store.  You were buying the game, they added the key to the account.  It said non-refundable.  To trully have a problem with this,  you've either had to live a sheltered life, or be a kid. 

 

All sales final, is a standard business practice, has been for many years.

Yep all sales are final i agree but the point im trying to make that seems to elude so many people is ( and i really dont care one way or another in just discussing the issue is) shouldn't you receive the full product in order to be charged for the full product
 

Originally posted by templarga

Mortal Online does look great, I just am not at a point in my life where is viable for me to play it. :)

I mean PVP for me isn't a big deal, if and when I have the time, but I don't anymore.

And I came late to news about Aion. I first heard is was PVP only but the more I read, it seemed like there was going to be a lot of PVE elements above and PVP could be avoided. However, now, its seems the opposite.

And for me, it was a little frustrating and I do feel betrayed because I hated the idea of the game, then LOVED it, then hate it again. And its nothing against the game, I just wish the info was clearer.

Hope that makes sense.

EDIT: Exaclt, makes it sound like WAR which sounded like DAOC - my first MMO love and I was hoping Aion would recapture that. But, I don't think it will.

Yeah, which is also funny because WAR also ended up being nothing like DAOC lol. Double burned.

Mmmm, I dunno about time though. Aion is set up, more or less, to be about the journey rather than the destination. PvP does actually do something for you and your side too, so it's not wasted effort. You can use abyss points to get gear and then there's the sieges and fun stuff ^_^. At this point you have all your pre-order stuff coming anyway...37 days of play time...other fun stuff...might as well use em, ne? ^_^

You might find you like it in the end. An hour of fun is an hour of fun, learned that a long time ago. Even if that means my xp bar doesn't move much.

Originally posted by odinsassassi

Yep all sales are final i agree but the point im trying to make that seems to elude so many people is ( and i really dont care one way or another in just discussing the issue is) shouldn't you receive the full product in order to be charged for the full product
 

You do. Just not at the time of purchase. When you pre-purchase a game you aren't charged that price until the game releases.

Because if you were then their entire accounting department would have to put a debit out to each individual stating that they are owed the promised product. This is reflected by a credit in your favor of 49.99, basically the company owes you 49.99, a debt. Let's say a company amasses a million pre-orders for something, so...49.99 x 1M.....that's a lot of extra debt to have on your books.

Plus there are laws that prevent them from doing this. So, when the game actually releases you're charged and then given the promised product. In other words they haven't taken your money yet and if they do and don't give you the promised product they will face fines, civil cases and possibly jail time.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or accountant, all of the above is taken from self-taught material and stuff I've learned. ^_^

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by odinsassassi

Yep all sales are final i agree but the point im trying to make that seems to elude so many people is ( and i really dont care one way or another in just discussing the issue is) shouldn't you receive the full product in order to be charged for the full product
 

 

You do. Just not at the time of purchase. When you pre-purchase a game you aren't charged that price until the game releases.

Because if you were then their entire accounting department would have to put a debit out to each individual stating that they are owed the promised product. This is reflected by a credit in your favor of 49.99, basically the company owes you 49.99, a debt. Let's say a company amasses a million pre-orders for something, so...49.99 x 1M.....that's a lot of extra debt to have on your books.

Plus there are laws that prevent them from doing this. So, when the game actually releases you're charged and then given the promised product. In other words they haven't taken your money yet and if they do and don't give you the promised product they will face fines, civil cases and possibly jail time.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or accountant, all of the above is taken from self-taught material and stuff I've learned. ^_^

Makes perfect sense but wouldnt there be some sort of terminology that would allow you to change your mind before said charge is applied they cant really force you to buy the product if you dont want it can they if if at the time you though they did
 

Originally posted by odinsassassi

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

You do. Just not at the time of purchase. When you pre-purchase a game you aren't charged that price until the game releases.

Because if you were then their entire accounting department would have to put a debit out to each individual stating that they are owed the promised product. This is reflected by a credit in your favor of 49.99, basically the company owes you 49.99, a debt. Let's say a company amasses a million pre-orders for something, so...49.99 x 1M.....that's a lot of extra debt to have on your books.

Plus there are laws that prevent them from doing this. So, when the game actually releases you're charged and then given the promised product. In other words they haven't taken your money yet and if they do and don't give you the promised product they will face fines, civil cases and possibly jail time.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or accountant, all of the above is taken from self-taught material and stuff I've learned. ^_^

Makes perfect sense but wouldnt there be some sort of terminology that would allow you to change your mind before said charge is applied they cant really force you to buy the product if you dont want it can they if if at the time you though they did
 

No. If there is an agreement that you either seperately are automatically enter into upon purchase that what you're doing is non-refundable then there isn't anything you can do. You have laws on your side if they try to take your money and give you nothing in return though.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by odinsassassi

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

You do. Just not at the time of purchase. When you pre-purchase a game you aren't charged that price until the game releases.

Because if you were then their entire accounting department would have to put a debit out to each individual stating that they are owed the promised product. This is reflected by a credit in your favor of 49.99, basically the company owes you 49.99, a debt. Let's say a company amasses a million pre-orders for something, so...49.99 x 1M.....that's a lot of extra debt to have on your books.

Plus there are laws that prevent them from doing this. So, when the game actually releases you're charged and then given the promised product. In other words they haven't taken your money yet and if they do and don't give you the promised product they will face fines, civil cases and possibly jail time.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or accountant, all of the above is taken from self-taught material and stuff I've learned. ^_^

Makes perfect sense but wouldnt there be some sort of terminology that would allow you to change your mind before said charge is applied they cant really force you to buy the product if you dont want it can they if if at the time you though they did
 

 

No. If there is an agreement that you either seperately are automatically enter into upon purchase that what you're doing is non-refundable then there isn't anything you can do. You have laws on your side if they try to take your money and give you nothing in return though.

So basically once you click that button so to speak your takuing there product on release day wether you want it or not. Kinda sucks but that god i didnt buy from ncsoft can move my pre order to something more to my tastes like modern warfare 2 :)