I think that FFXI got it right,

If you die and no one res's you (aka you have to go back to your home point) you lose 12% of ALL XP (not just that levels xp but ALL)

But if you got res'd you'd only lose 2% of xp.

(and you could only be res'd in 1 hour of dieing)

It was a very nice set up, and if that was on a server by inself I would deffinitly chose it over a lighter penilty.

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Originally posted by SwampRob

Question:   if a game had an option to choose either a mild death penalty or a harsh one, how many of you can honestly say you'd choose the harsher one as your default? 

 

If there was a seperate server with a harsher penalty, absolutely, I would go for it.

Having a toggle between harsh and light all on one server, it depends and I honestly doubt that that idea would work out very well.  If there wasn't some noticable benefit to playing on the harsh setting you'd just end up feeling stupid, like you're self-gimping yourself, and you really can't expect people to do that.  On the other hand if there were a noticable benefit to it (like better loot drops) then everyone would feel like they had to play with the harsher penalty and it would become the default.

I dont know why Developers dont do this. Why not make a game, and then make harder servers( more grouping and harsher death penalties)  and easy servers( more solo friendly and lighter death penalties).

I would go on the harder server for sure

Originally posted by Dewm

I think that FFXI got it right,

 

If you die and no one res's you (aka you have to go back to your home point) you lose 12% of ALL XP (not just that levels xp but ALL)

But if you got res'd you'd only lose 2% of xp.

(and you could only be res'd in 1 hour of dieing)

 

It was a very nice set up, and if that was on a server by inself I would deffinitly chose it over a lighter penilty.

No it is not. It is a way to people to grind more. I guess i will avoid FFXI.

Originally posted by Swoogie

I used to play a game called Everquest and the death penalties brought the game to a whole different level. Loosing exp when you died, the hell levels where you would loose more exp, corpse runs and  NO armour on corpse runs in the REAL enviroment( not a ghost). I thikn Everquest was the perfect game :)Im hoping to go back soon.

LOL .. that is the funniest thing I have read today. I played EQ since beta. Let me see ... rampant camping with taking a number to kill the boss. Sit down for 10 min (at least in the beginning) to regen mana. If you don't have time to do a corpse run, you are screwed. At time that I have no choice so I played it until i can't stand the camping.

I won't go back to it if I have nothing else to play.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Dewm

I think that FFXI got it right,

 

If you die and no one res's you (aka you have to go back to your home point) you lose 12% of ALL XP (not just that levels xp but ALL)

But if you got res'd you'd only lose 2% of xp.

(and you could only be res'd in 1 hour of dieing)

 

It was a very nice set up, and if that was on a server by inself I would deffinitly chose it over a lighter penilty.

 

No it is not. It is a way to people to grind more. I guess i will avoid FFXI.

Meh your opinion, have fun in WoW

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by heremypet

You guys need to see past all of the changes that competition in this industry has brought to the table and realize that these are hardly RPGs anymore, but instead just a colorful waste of time.  All of the MMO developers want to be the one who rewards the player the most, and then players get where they want to log on and just win win win, no matter what they are doing.  I've actually seen people argue that since they pay a monthly sub, they should not have to lose at anything in the game.. Well I'll tell you what, I'll make a game where you click your mouse on a big red button and win, it's that easy.  Just pay me $15 a month and click click click and you can win win win until your fingers bleed.

 

 

If you game actually have content .. sure. There are plenty of people using God Mode to go through SP games for the same reason. They want to see and experience the content.

When are people realize that games are now more like movies. Players are entertained by CONTENT, not challenges.

 

 

That doesn't sound like much fun to me. I guess you have to be entertained very easily to pay for that garbage.

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by heremypet

You guys need to see past all of the changes that competition in this industry has brought to the table and realize that these are hardly RPGs anymore, but instead just a colorful waste of time.  All of the MMO developers want to be the one who rewards the player the most, and then players get where they want to log on and just win win win, no matter what they are doing.  I've actually seen people argue that since they pay a monthly sub, they should not have to lose at anything in the game.. Well I'll tell you what, I'll make a game where you click your mouse on a big red button and win, it's that easy.  Just pay me $15 a month and click click click and you can win win win until your fingers bleed.

 

 

If you game actually have content .. sure. There are plenty of people using God Mode to go through SP games for the same reason. They want to see and experience the content.

When are people realize that games are now more like movies. Players are entertained by CONTENT, not challenges.

 

 

"Players are not entertained by challenges"
I'm sorry but that is the most ridiculous crap I've heard all week. 

"Games are now more like movies"
So what do you suggest?  we put down the controller and watch our video games?

 

FWIW, I have played games almost entirely in God Mode just so I can watch them uninterrupted.   Sometimes I'm enjoying the story so much, the game gets in the way.   Think of it this way:   watching a video can be like reading a book.  You're enjoying the story as it unfolds.   But suddenly, around the end of chapter 5, a message tells you that you did not play well enough and have to replay chapter 5.   It's like being told I didn't read the chapter well enough, and have to read it again.     I don't want to read it again, I want to see what happens in chapter 6.   The game Indigo Prophecy was an excellent example of this.   Great story, but awkward gameplay that made you die much too often.

Good lord, buy a movie. I can't believe people feel this way. I play games to you know actually PLAY them. I'll buy a movie if I want to watch a story.

FWIW, I have played games almost entirely in God Mode just so I can watch them uninterrupted.   Sometimes I'm enjoying the story so much, the game gets in the way.   Think of it this way:   watching a video can be like reading a book.  You're enjoying the story as it unfolds.   But suddenly, around the end of chapter 5, a message tells you that you did not play well enough and have to replay chapter 5.   It's like being told I didn't read the chapter well enough, and have to read it again.     I don't want to read it again, I want to see what happens in chapter 6.   The game Indigo Prophecy was an excellent example of this.   Great story, but awkward gameplay that made you die much too often.

 

Good lord, buy a movie. I can't believe people feel this way. I play games to you know actually PLAY them. I'll buy a movie if I want to watch a story.

I don't do this for many games, and never for the entire game, but I have done it for a few.

Think of it this way:  when I watch a James Bond movie, everyone watching knows that Bond isn't going to die.   But this way, I get to control Bond myself, do all the shooting and killing and steering without having the game/movie/story reset to some previous point just cause I was a bit slow in the trigger.    In a way, you could argue that having the main character die in a game is the most non-immersive thing you could put in it.

The problem with death penelties is that the result in such things requires you to spend more time playing the game. ie loss of exp, gear or money. This causes a problem in most people cause not enough people can playing on the same level as everyone as in hardcore vs casuals. Hardcores hate casuals for making there games easier to play but unforunatly people have lives and bills to play, so unless something is less time consuming and easier, casuals aren't going to bother playing it because then it becomes a waste of time or money but game companies need the subscriber numbers of the casuals to help make there game more of a hit.

Originally posted by Dewm

I think that FFXI got it right,

 <snip>

ugh... I hated that in FFXI's Death Penalty... not so much the xp lost, but the amount and the fact you could delevel.
That, couple with being forced into grouping (which wasn't easy to do when I played) is what made be quit after 3 months.
I left FFXI with utter hate for it... and any game that forced grouping on you.
 

And nariusseldon is right, it just made you grind more.

Originally posted by lornphoenix

Originally posted by Dewm

I think that FFXI got it right,

 <snip>

 

ugh... I hated that in FFXI's Death Penalty... not so much the xp lost, but the amount and the fact you could delevel.
That, couple with being forced into grouping (which wasn't easy to do when I played) is what made be quit after 3 months.
I left FFXI with utter hate for it... and any game that forced grouping on you.
 

And nariusseldon is right, it just made you grind more.

 

But that being said, what kind of death penalty doesn't make you grind?

If its uber easy sure, just run back to your body (WoW) but anything else is a grind,  if you lose your gear you have to grind it back again. (or might not be able to because you've already done that quest)

Or if you lost like a percentage of the durablity of it, you still have to grind for the money to repair it.

Personaly i think to many winer's play mmorpgs...  if you dont have a death penality then people dont care if they die so there is no teamwork or stratigy it turns into a zergfest and yeah some people may like that.. but it totaly ruin's the game for alot of us yes we complain about the grind.. but if you stop and think about it.. if you put a bit of thought into your group and how you aproch things then you dont die so where is the grind?? the only real grind is by the people that cant play as a group anyway and if they want to cry.. then just turn a def ear and iggy them... yes its a bit of a pain to have to replace or repair, or even earn back xp from dieing but where is the thrill from not haveing any conciquences... its gone.. you turn an exciting game into a speed run to the end content and take all the thrill from it... so you died 5 times but managed to kill so in so... who cares... now we killed so  and so and noone died in the process... SWEET... now that is something to talk about

Originally posted by Dewm

But that being said, what kind of death penalty doesn't make you grind?

If its uber easy sure, just run back to your body (WoW) but anything else is a grind,  if you lose your gear you have to grind it back again. (or might not be able to because you've already done that quest)

Or if you lost like a percentage of the durablity of it, you still have to grind for the money to repair it.

DPs are just timesink in any MMO. Just some are worst then others.

I was just stating my utter hate for FFXI it's harsh XP Lost DP, because you said they got it right... I don't think they did.
I don't think you should delevel in any game... nor should lose that much XP... but that is just me

Originally posted by lornphoenix

Originally posted by Dewm

But that being said, what kind of death penalty doesn't make you grind?

If its uber easy sure, just run back to your body (WoW) but anything else is a grind,  if you lose your gear you have to grind it back again. (or might not be able to because you've already done that quest)

Or if you lost like a percentage of the durablity of it, you still have to grind for the money to repair it.

 

DPs are just timesink in any MMO. Just some are worst then others.

I was just stating my utter hate for FFXI it's harsh XP Lost DP, because you said they got it right... I don't think they did.
I don't think you should delevel in any game... nor should lose that much XP... but that is just me

 

Well if you wanna get down to the nitty gritty ANY game, and ANY part of a game is a time sink. I prefere the way they did it in FFXI because it actually made somewhat of a diffrence if you died.

But hey thats what this forum is about, you have your opinion, and I have mine.

i agree.. i think the dp should be tough.. i loved the old DDO dp before they nerf'ed it.. it was alot like FFXI 's you could de lv and it was great you didnt have all the zerger noncence... dont get me wrong i like to zerg on occasion too.. but not all the time i like the thrill of acually haveing a reason to do my best to stay alive...

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RamenThief7

Well, Narusselda, first off WOW is one of the hugest reasons why rogue-likes aren't seen as often. Also, a game should be successful for the reasons it become successful in the first place. EVE Online should not be forced to cater to casuals to make more income, it should stay the way it is to offer a unique experience. And the developer of EVE Online obviously agree with this idea, which is why they have not changed the death punishment system (you lose your ship, and only get money back if you had the ship insured). This is why I am highly considering playing EVE Online soon. The developers are not greedy and change important aspects of the game just to net in more people, they instead build upon their original idea and keep the original concept in mind, all the while keeping their fanbase happy.

Also, to answer that second post about wondering why dying to get free transport back to town with no penalty is so bad, well, read the entire thread to get a good feel of why I said that...

 

And that is why i tried Eve and decide not to subscribe (not to mention the horribly skimpy and boring PvE) and people like me prob outnumber you by a factor of 10.

And sure, if the developers want to settle on a niche game, it is their perogative. Just don't expect people flock to it.

Really? So I'm guessing I can't use the clean-cut evidence that EVE Online is currently one of the top 5 most popular mmorpgs being played right to prove a point I suppose. Quite successful for what you call a "niche game," which caters to middle-cores and rogue-like gamers in this case. The game has very few (if any) casuals playing, so considering that EVE Online is almost entirely populated by middle-cores and rogue-likes proves that it is possible to make a succesful game that does not target casuals more. Here's to hoping that EVE Online caters to the middle-cores and rogue-like gamers, and never falls into that trap of trying to draw casuals and having the game destroyed within a few years.

By the way, I"m truly curious about the first part of your response. You say that people like you outnumber me 10 to 1. What kind of people am I being classified as? If you mean rogue-like gamer, then I wouldn't say 10 to 1, judging by the amount of people on this thread have said they wanted more stricter death penalties in games (or separate servers with those conditions implemented)...

Originally posted by Dewm

I think that FFXI got it right,

 

If you die and no one res's you (aka you have to go back to your home point) you lose 12% of ALL XP (not just that levels xp but ALL)

But if you got res'd you'd only lose 2% of xp.

(and you could only be res'd in 1 hour of dieing)

 

It was a very nice set up, and if that was on a server by inself I would deffinitly chose it over a lighter penilty.

If FF XIV follows that exact pattern, then I'm signing up in advance.

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by RamenThief7

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Originally posted by SwampRob

Now, while I can appreciate that some have a different point of view on death penalties, do you truly enjoy it when you have to run your character across hills and dales back to the dungeon entrance and down all the little windy hallways to get back to where you were?   Do you actually find that fun?    I'm not mocking, I'm just curious.    I find it difficult to understand how someone could enjoy that.

 

Oh God no, of course I don't enjoy that sort of thing.  I also don't enjoy losing two or more hours worth of experience gain or anything else.  But for me the -not enjoying- the penalty is the whole point of having it.  If the penalty is enough to make me slam my fist on my desk and shout a few expletives then it's also enough to give me a little excitement when I'm facing possible death and a little thrill when I cheat death.

Maybe people like me are like the gaming world version of the adrenaline junky.  You know, the people in real life who do risky things just for the excitement.  Ask one of those guys if they enjoy getting bruised and battered and having their bones broken and I'm sure they would say no.  Yet they do insanely risky things anyway knowing that they could get hurt and it's the possibility of getting hurt that makes it exciting. 

Neanderthal, you prove an excellent point. See, in general Goragg, no one likes the penalties. But us rogue-likes (and I'm guessing the middle-core crowd as well) love to hate the penalties, if that makes any sense to you. We like suffering middle-severe penalties for dying, it teaches us not to repeat it. It also gives us adrenaline during the times that we are in danger, because now we are putting our 100% effort into not dying. That is where we get our adrenaline rush. And so far, I haven't seen that in many games so far, with the exception of EVE (and at one point, Runescape).

Interesting.  I think, for some of us, dying itself is enough of a penalty.   First off, it reminds me that, at least on that attempt, I have failed.    Second, I have to stop doing what I enjoy (playing the game) and now have to deal with whatever consequences have arisen from my failure, be it a corpse run, a wait period (a la Wow) or something more harsh.    But, for some of us, the severity of harshness is irrelevant.     The only incentive I need to not die is: dying will force me to stop playing and have to do some punishment until I can continue playing.    Even if that punishment is walking across a field, it's enough for me.

Question:   if a game had an option to choose either a mild death penalty or a harsh one, how many of you can honestly say you'd choose the harsher one as your default?

 

 

Well, I really can't agree with your thought of severity of harshness being irrelevant, it's actually very important. It determines what kind of crowd you'll attract in a game, whether it be casuals, middle-cores or rogue-like gamers. Also, to point this out, alot of people in this thread so far see just dying as not much of a challenge. If there is light punishments, then the person really learns nothing and just repeats something over and over until they finally get it right. That would bore the hell out of us rogue-like gamers (and the middle-cores who lean towards rogue-like status). But once again, this is just by opinion. I would think that all casuals would agree with you, but just pointing out that not everyone has that style of thinking.

Originally posted by qombi

Good lord, buy a movie. I can't believe people feel this way. I play games to you know actually PLAY them. I'll buy a movie if I want to watch a story.

No wonder you are so disconnected from the larger gaming public. Do you know that cheat devices are selling very well in console games? 

You don't know a lot of players want to blow through levels, feel the power and be entertained by that?
 

And you wonder why developers don't caster to your niche. Open your eyes.

Originally posted by RamenThief7

By the way, I"m truly curious about the first part of your response. You say that people like you outnumber me 10 to 1. What kind of people am I being classified as? If you mean rogue-like gamer, then I wouldn't say 10 to 1, judging by the amount of people on this thread have said they wanted more stricter death penalties in games (or separate servers with those conditions implemented)...

 

If you include EVERYONE ever posted on this forum, it constitute less than 1% of 1% of WOW players, not to mention total MMORPG players. I wouldn't use a forum like this as proof of anything.