Originally posted by Goragg

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by Goragg

Because PVP does not belong in an MMO to begin with.

Any game that has charater development based in time in is not a good venue for PVP. The reason is that players with more time in beat those with less and the whole "skill" element disappears. The competition becomes stale and the game ulimately suffers.

Now if you cookie cutter characters and provide zero or limited game play effecting rewards it works. I loved BF2142 because ranks and unlocks helped but did not define my play experience. Can you do that in an MMO and still call it an MMO?

 

What a load of crap! Players fighting against other players doesnt belong in an ONLINE roleplaying game? Where does it belong then? Offline roleplaying games lol. Online games are obviously the perfect (and ONLY) venue for PvP. You had better get used to it too because as developers are learning from their past mistakes more WELL DESIGNED mmos are on their way that incorporate PvP.

Players shouldnt be able to play against each other online.......ha ha ha! What a joke lol

Can you do that in an MMO and still call it a Massively Multiplayer Online game? Of course you bloody can. Why is that so difficult to contemplate. It might help if you stop focusing on all the failed attempts at incorporating PvP into the PURE PvE games (ie single player games in multiplayer mode) of the past. Yes they all sucked.....because they were never built for player vs player combat in the first place.......NOT because PvP doesnt work.

Just because you've only ever eaten mouldy apples doesnt mean apples taste bad.

 

You missed the point. An MMO with level/gear/spec based characters does not provide a good PVP experience. It is less a competition against players and more against who is the better PVEer. Which character was better at grinding stuff for better items/skills.

A good PVP experience makes players somewhat even and allows for good competition based upon fighting skills or game knowledge. In general these games are called FPS not MMO.

 

Neonwire's always missing the point, business as usual there.

For others that can think logically and aren't wrapped up in telling people they're closed-minded, you summed it up pretty nicely, and I agree with what I quoted above.  Based on current games available, pvp in mmo's is inferior to fps.

Always remember this..

Originally posted by neonwire

I always think its funny that narrow minded people like yourself automatically think that mmo stands for "massively multiplayer single player game in co-op mode". As you are well aware FPS games do not provide all the roleplaying aspects that I enjoy in mmos........which is why a lot of games coming out now are focusing a lot on PvP. What are you gonna do if several years from now no pure PvE games are being made? GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE?

Just like I always think its funny that we argue on a forum with various people about why a certain game isn't being made...

The people on this forum have NO control over what MMO is made or not made.  So we just clash over opposing points of view .. or even some points of view as to why those games are not being made.

If you want that MMO... you have to be someplace other than mmorpg.com or any forum.. pushing someone to make it. 

I'm all for a pvp game if they ever make one worth playing again.

I just don't want pvp that is a pve grind in disguise.

DAoC rvr for rp's to buy ra's.

EQ pve for aaxp to buy aa's.  (same thing in the end).

Ultima Online was fun.. for me.

Originally posted by Zippy

I would much rather fight PvE mobs.  PvE NPCs are generally much smarter and more enjoyable to fight than PvP players.  NPCs do not jump around, in and out of combat, as if they forgot to take their ritalin, they have more patience, they have better Vocabulary and grammar, they are more mature, they don't grief, they don't exploit and most important of all they don't talk back once you kill them.

All in all NPC mobs nicer to be aroound and more enjoyable to fight.  Communities of all MMO's would be greatly improved by removing all the PvP kiddies from their games.

You just gave a PERFECT description of a single player game. MMO's would be greatly improved by removing all the PvE kiddies from their games. They can stick with single player games instead.

Originally posted by elderotter

Originally posted by Hyanmen

 You're right, there should be a pure PvP MMO available, along with many other types of MMO's.

But what you're probably gonna hear is that you'll 'force players to PvP', and that you ' only care about what you want'. Too bad. 

 

I, for one, wish that a truly PvP game with no PVE would come out.  All of you that want this would then go play it and leave those of us  who like only  PvE in our games alone.  Those PvE games would no longer feel that they had to add PvP to PvE games, which ruins them in my opinion.  We, those of us who like each type of game play, would both have what we want without stepping on each others toes. 

So, please - Develepers - come up with the perfect PvP game so that us PvE'rs can play our games in peace.

I agree with this.....except without the biased slant towards PvE fanatacism of course as I like playing against the computer and people. The PvE purists love moaning and whining about the implemention of PvP in mmos and yet fail to see that it gives a game for those" nasty brutish PvP meanies" to go and play. The stupid thing is that the griefers that people keep crying about arent even neccessarily PvP fans.......they are just people playing games like everyone else.

Originally posted by deviliscious

I Hate PVE,  I am not impressed with AI, I like the unpredictability of human reaction, and I love games that I can play mainly / solely against other players. It is an MMO, so it only makes sense to play against other players not against AI. Most of the PVE content to me is just solo RPG content that requires you to group with other players at some point, when I do not even see that as necessary. In games that do not require grouping players will group with people they enjoy, not just some random punk potty mouthed kid that I wouldn't wish upon anyone to endure. Players will group willinginly to combat other players and create their own battles if the game allows for you to be able to do so, and do not see that as needed to be forced.

I do not understand why people find it entertaining to kill some NPC at all.. to me it is just a bot, it does not communicate with you, it does not think.  When playing against players, you never know what they are going to do, they could just run away saying " ahhhhhh!"  They may come at you saying all kinds of obnoxious things, or they may even sing while you are fighting each other... any way you look at it though that is and will always be better than fighting against NPC's.

Some people take PVP too seriously, Sure I like winning, I don't go out to lose and will give it my best to defeat my opponenets, but if I lose, I respect my opponent for being able to defeat me. How do you respect an NPC?  The rivalries that grow in mmos between guilds and clans, the friendships that grow are often directly forged in battles against other players.

I personally love open battles where you can be fighting one guild and another shows up and ambushes you.. I live for that kind of chaos and unpredictability and it brings an entirely different level of excietment to the games that PVE completely lacks. PVE is just predictable and boring ..* yawns*

You summed it up perfectly sir.

But oh no! You like fighting other players? In an online game world shared with thousands of other players? Whats wrong with you?! Get back to those FPS games god damn it.....because if you like PvP then you cant possibly be capable of appreciating or enjoying all of the qualities that you get in an mmo. No its FPS arena battles for you sir. The PVE fanatics have spoken and you must obey.

I haven't read anything other than the OP but

I think PvP is more competitive and more representative of skill in FPS type games, I also think that with PvE the capacity for new and innovative things is endless whereas PvP wise new things take far longer due to the balancing act that must be played between players.

Originally posted by neonwire

 

You just gave a PERFECT description of a single player game. MMO's would be greatly improved by removing all the PvE kiddies from their games. They can stick with single player games instead.

Neon, lol, honestly man the more you post the more I laugh.  I mean, jeez, by the law of averages you should say something intelligent just on sheer volume, but it hasn't happened yet.

Anyhow, heh, with that out of the way, you do realize that removing the PVE kiddies would kill the genre, right, as they make up the vast majority of players? Yes? 

Don't believe me? Take a look at the player numbers for what are considered PVP-centric games.  What does Darkfall have, 20k subs?  What about Shadowbane....oh never mind.   Aion? Remains to be seen, and its not even a full-blown pvp game.  EVE? Probably the best of the bunch with a couple hundred thousand, not all of whom take part in pvp.  

But yeah, go ahead and remove the PVE kiddies, then you PVP types really will be going to FPS titles, because there will be no more mmorpgs.

/rolleyes

Originally posted by veritas_X

Originally posted by Goragg

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by Goragg

Because PVP does not belong in an MMO to begin with.

Any game that has charater development based in time in is not a good venue for PVP. The reason is that players with more time in beat those with less and the whole "skill" element disappears. The competition becomes stale and the game ulimately suffers.

Now if you cookie cutter characters and provide zero or limited game play effecting rewards it works. I loved BF2142 because ranks and unlocks helped but did not define my play experience. Can you do that in an MMO and still call it an MMO?

 

What a load of crap! Players fighting against other players doesnt belong in an ONLINE roleplaying game? Where does it belong then? Offline roleplaying games lol. Online games are obviously the perfect (and ONLY) venue for PvP. You had better get used to it too because as developers are learning from their past mistakes more WELL DESIGNED mmos are on their way that incorporate PvP.

Players shouldnt be able to play against each other online.......ha ha ha! What a joke lol

Can you do that in an MMO and still call it a Massively Multiplayer Online game? Of course you bloody can. Why is that so difficult to contemplate. It might help if you stop focusing on all the failed attempts at incorporating PvP into the PURE PvE games (ie single player games in multiplayer mode) of the past. Yes they all sucked.....because they were never built for player vs player combat in the first place.......NOT because PvP doesnt work.

Just because you've only ever eaten mouldy apples doesnt mean apples taste bad.

 

You missed the point. An MMO with level/gear/spec based characters does not provide a good PVP experience. It is less a competition against players and more against who is the better PVEer. Which character was better at grinding stuff for better items/skills.

A good PVP experience makes players somewhat even and allows for good competition based upon fighting skills or game knowledge. In general these games are called FPS not MMO.

 

Veritas's always missing the point, business as usual there.

For others that can think logically and aren't wrapped up in telling people they're closed-minded, you summed it up pretty nicely, and I agree with what I quoted above.  Based on current games available, pvp in mmo's is inferior to fps.

Well its true isnt it. You are extremely close-minded. Once again you have made it clear that your viewpoint is based on previous PvE games with badly implemented PvP. Of course the PvP in mmos is currently worse than what you get in FPS games. Thats the whole point of the OP's post. He (like many others) want to see an mmo with decent PvP in them......which we will get sooner or later. I'm sorry you cant think logically about it as your head is too wrapped up in the failed PvP attempts of the past.

I'd say it's not a bad idea at all. Though I think we have to see at least one heavily-PVP-oriented MMO get some impressive numbers before any big companies would go for a "solely PVP" MMO.

Of course if you, like me, find combat in MMOs to be mostly dull and want to see more than just slash-slash or pew-pew in a game, probably this sort of thing would not be for you.

Originally posted by neonwire

 

Well its true isnt it. You are extremely close-minded. Once again you have made it clear that your viewpoint is based on previous PvE games with badly implemented PvP. Of course the PvP in mmos is currently worse than what you get in FPS games. Thats the whole point of the OP's post. He (like many others) want to see an mmo with decent PvP in them......which we will get sooner or later. I'm sorry you cant think logically about it as your head is too wrapped up in the failed PvP attempts of the past.

And as other people in this thread have pointed out, pvp in mmos will continue to be inferior because of various design reasons that you either didn't read or couldn't comprehend.  Are you playing Darkfall?  Probably not, but I am, and I can tell you that its fairly close to a 'pvp only' mmo, and its on life support.  This is unfortunate, I hope it succeeds because I enjoy the harvesting/crafting, but it is a fact that the current market will not sustain a pvp-only mmorpg.

Finally, I don't think closed-minded means what you think it means. Closed-minded is not 'disagreeing with neonwire.' Its a refusal to consider other viewpoints. I have considered your viewpoint (shared by others in the thread) and based on my experience, I found it to be wrong. 

That does not equate to being closed-minded, as you seem to believe.

If anything, you running around squawking about how people that disagree with you are 'closed-minded' indicates a general lack of maturity, intelligence, and experience (or perhaps all three), the sum total of which seem to indicate that you, in fact, have a relatively narrow mental capacity.

/tiphat

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by deviliscious

I Hate PVE,  I am not impressed with AI, I like the unpredictability of human reaction, and I love games that I can play mainly / solely against other players. It is an MMO, so it only makes sense to play against other players not against AI. Most of the PVE content to me is just solo RPG content that requires you to group with other players at some point, when I do not even see that as necessary. In games that do not require grouping players will group with people they enjoy, not just some random punk potty mouthed kid that I wouldn't wish upon anyone to endure. Players will group willinginly to combat other players and create their own battles if the game allows for you to be able to do so, and do not see that as needed to be forced.

I do not understand why people find it entertaining to kill some NPC at all.. to me it is just a bot, it does not communicate with you, it does not think.  When playing against players, you never know what they are going to do, they could just run away saying " ahhhhhh!"  They may come at you saying all kinds of obnoxious things, or they may even sing while you are fighting each other... any way you look at it though that is and will always be better than fighting against NPC's.

Some people take PVP too seriously, Sure I like winning, I don't go out to lose and will give it my best to defeat my opponenets, but if I lose, I respect my opponent for being able to defeat me. How do you respect an NPC?  The rivalries that grow in mmos between guilds and clans, the friendships that grow are often directly forged in battles against other players.

I personally love open battles where you can be fighting one guild and another shows up and ambushes you.. I live for that kind of chaos and unpredictability and it brings an entirely different level of excietment to the games that PVE completely lacks. PVE is just predictable and boring ..* yawns*

 

You summed it up perfectly sir.

But oh no! You like fighting other players? In an online game world shared with thousands of other players? Whats wrong with you?! Get back to those FPS games god damn it.....because if you like PvP then you cant possibly be capable of appreciating or enjoying all of the qualities that you get in an mmo. No its FPS arena battles for you sir. The PVE fanatics have spoken and you must obey.

I think he is a she:P, anyway she definitely hit the nail on the head. She also did a good job of reminding me why I miss old school SWG so much. The unpredictability of multi-guild warfare was the baznitch!

i prefer to fight PvE mobs...at least they don't cheat.

seriously though you should check out WAR, that was pretty fun to grind off the battleground things.

For us "PVE kiddies" and those spouting this "go back to single player crap" do you forget that the main idea of an massively MULTIPLAYER ORPG. It was originally for those of us who like to play co-op with their buddies and still be in the RPG genre. PVP should be and will always be an afterthought for the rest of you.

Originally posted by veritas_X

Originally posted by neonwire

 

You just gave a PERFECT description of a single player game. MMO's would be greatly improved by removing all the PvE kiddies from their games. They can stick with single player games instead.

 

Neon, lol, honestly man the more you post the more I laugh.  I mean, jeez, by the law of averages you should say something intelligent just on sheer volume, but it hasn't happened yet.

Anyhow, heh, with that out of the way, you do realize that removing the PVE kiddies would kill the genre, right, as they make up the vast majority of players? Yes? 

Don't believe me? Take a look at the player numbers for what are considered PVP-centric games.  What does Darkfall have, 20k subs?  What about Shadowbane....oh never mind.   Aion? Remains to be seen, and its not even a full-blown pvp game.  EVE? Probably the best of the bunch with a couple hundred thousand, not all of whom take part in pvp.  

But yeah, go ahead and remove the PVE kiddies, then you PVP types really will be going to FPS titles, because there will be no more mmorpgs.

/rolleyes

 

There's no need to take it so literally. I was being sarcastic. Obviously removing the PvE players from PvE games wouldnt....ermmm.....work. I just couldnt ignore the irony of Zippy's post......the way everything he described was an exact description of a single player game. It highlights the point that there should be more variety in mmos rather than just having single player games dumped online with a co-op option. Besides all of the complaints that are thrown at the so-called PVPers also apply to the PVEers as well as they can be just as rude, ignorant and obnoxious. People will always be people regardless of the type of game.

.....and you did it again! You actually cant stop yourself from doing it can you. You cant stop yourself from looking at games with badly implemented PvP in them and then using them as examples for why ALL PVP IS GONNA FAIL. This is a common trend on these forums. Maybe its a result of lazy thinkers simply mimicing the words of others who in turn copied the ideas from someone else. Afterall the human race is well known for its tendency to just follow the flock even if the flock is misguided.

Darkfall.......It doesnt have low subs because no-one likes PvP. It has low subs because its not a great game and its a nightmare to get into. Also hardly anyone outside of the mmo circles has even heard of it. Shadowbane didnt do too well because it was badly made as well. Aion......like you said its not even a full blown PvP game. I think the PvP focus is rather appealing to a lot of people actually.

EVE is the only game which relies heavily on PvP and even that has a PvE structure to it. Yet its a well made game and because the PvP is well implemented it is very popular. In fact I can point to EVE as an example of how PvP can work perfectly well in an mmo and how the PvE aspect is actually really boring and for me personally detracted from the enjoyment of the game rather than added to it.

My point is that you cant actually prove that PvP is a guarantee to failure in mmos when there are virtually none that have been made. You seem to be forgetting that mmos actually havent been around for very long. The genre is in its infancy. Thats why most mmos so far have been more about PvE than PvP. Its because games developers are more used to making single player games......so obviously its easier for them to continue to make single player games and then dump them on a server and open them up to thousands of players. The PvP that was added to these games as an after thought was just a prelude to what is to come. Over the next 10 years I reckon we are going to see a lot of really exciting online games and unlike their predecessors they are going to take better advantage of the fact that they are online. This means that players will have more freedom to interact with each other in more meaningful ways rather than just play their own individual single player games in the same gameworld. Yeah that means being able to fight each other within the context of the gameworld too because games developers have learned from their past mistakes......and the ones that havent will fail of course.

As you are well aware there are a string of mmos in development that are focusing heavily on PvP such as Global Agenda, Fallen Earth, Earthrise, Crusades, Mortal Online and a bunch of others. Its inevitable that sooner or later one or more of these PvP-centric games is gonna be successful. Then all of this "waagghhh PvP doesnt belong in mmos" talk will be chucked out the window.

Stop burying your head in the failures of the past. They were just test runs. I'll use the same analogy that I used before.

Just because you've only ever eaten rotten apples, it doesnt mean that all apples are bad.

Originally posted by Crosius

For us "PVE kiddies" and those spouting this "go back to single player crap" do you forget that the main idea of an massively MULTIPLAYER ORPG. It was originally for those of us who like to play co-op with their buddies and still be in the RPG genre. PVP should be and will always be an afterthought for the rest of you.

What is with this us vs them mentality that has come over this genre in the last few years? Nobody is arguing that PVE should be removed from MMO gaming. I think the topic is basically saying, what about us? There is definitely room for a true PVP centric game to come out, it is just a matter of who is going to make it and when. Something like the original UO or even shadowbane, that incorporates a skill or leveling structure built around player vs player combat. If they decide to incorporate PVE, it should be centered around PVP in such a game(not every game). Similar to what mythic tried with WAR but failed at. 

Where mythic failed was in structuring especially with LOTD. If you are selling your game as based around PVP, why lock people out of it? As for the carrot on a stick treadmill some seem worried about losing in such a game. Incorporate loot into PVP somehow, random drops could be based on how efficient the player you just killed has been in pvp. There are a number of ways to do this. Add kingship and noble roles for the best of the best (think FRS in old SWG). Killing them would give you epic drops or something along those lines. There are so many possibilities that have never been attempted. As for whether there would be a market for such a game. We will never know unless some one tries to make it.

Originally posted by veritas_X

Originally posted by neonwire

 

Well its true isnt it. You are extremely close-minded. Once again you have made it clear that your viewpoint is based on previous PvE games with badly implemented PvP. Of course the PvP in mmos is currently worse than what you get in FPS games. Thats the whole point of the OP's post. He (like many others) want to see an mmo with decent PvP in them......which we will get sooner or later. I'm sorry you cant think logically about it as your head is too wrapped up in the failed PvP attempts of the past.

And as other people in this thread have pointed out, pvp in mmos will continue to be inferior because of various design reasons that you either didn't read or couldn't comprehend.  Are you playing Darkfall?  Probably not, but I am, and I can tell you that its fairly close to a 'pvp only' mmo, and its on life support.  This is unfortunate, I hope it succeeds because I enjoy the harvesting/crafting, but it is a fact that the current market will not sustain a pvp-only mmorpg.

Finally, I don't think closed-minded means what you think it means. Closed-minded is not 'disagreeing with neonwire.' Its a refusal to consider other viewpoints. I have considered your viewpoint (shared by others in the thread) and based on my experience, I found it to be wrong. 

That does not equate to being closed-minded, as you seem to believe.

If anything, you running around squawking about how people that disagree with you are 'closed-minded' indicates a general lack of maturity, intelligence, and experience (or perhaps all three), the sum total of which seem to indicate that you, in fact, have a relatively narrow mental capacity.

/tiphat

Hmmm I quite like that reply. Your definition of close-minded is pretty accurate so I guess you get an apology from me. I dont have a hat but would a /curtnod suffice?

I dont agree that PvP will always be inferior because games and technology continue to improve at an alarming rate. Design reasons? Then design better games. Problem solved. I just think its silly to base that verdict on what we have seen so far in a mere span of 10 - 15 years. We are already seeing a line up of PvP focused games in development and I think there will be a lot more to come.

I also dont think you should finalise your viewpoint simply because Darkfall isnt doing too well as thats just one game. Play 10 or even more PvP focused games and if every single one of them turns out really badly then maybe your viewpoint will be validated. Until that happens there isnt much to back it up apart from simple naysaying.

Originally posted by Death1942

i prefer to fight PvE mobs...at least they don't cheat.

 

seriously though you should check out WAR, that was pretty fun to grind off the battleground things.

Ermmm nah it was boring as hell. Fun for a short while though.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Crosius

For us "PVE kiddies" and those spouting this "go back to single player crap" do you forget that the main idea of an massively MULTIPLAYER ORPG. It was originally for those of us who like to play co-op with their buddies and still be in the RPG genre. PVP should be and will always be an afterthought for the rest of you.

What is with this us vs them mentality that has come over this genre in the last few years? Nobody is arguing that PVE should be removed from MMO gaming. I think the topic is basically saying, what about us? There is definitely room for a true PVP centric game to come out, it is just a matter of who is going to make it and when. Something like the original UO or even shadowbane, that incorporates a skill or leveling structure built around player vs player combat. If they decide to incorporate PVE, it should be centered around PVP in such a game(not every game). Similar to what mythic tried with WAR but failed at. 

 

Where mythic failed was in structuring especially with LOTD. If you are selling your game as based around PVP, why lock people out of it? As for the carrot on a stick treadmill some seem worried about losing in such a game. Incorporate loot into PVP somehow, random drops could be based on how efficient the player you just killed has been in pvp. There are a number of ways to do this. Add kingship and noble roles for the best of the best (think FRS in old SWG). Killing them would give you epic drops or something along those lines. There are so many possibilities that have never been attempted. As for whether there would be a market for such a game. We will never know unless some one tries to make it.

 

Yeah exactly. There are so many different ways that a successful PvP focused mmo could be made. It just requires a games company to take the risk of trying to make one. Fortunately there are a number of companies doing just that. We will see something good come out eventually.

Originally posted by Ferrel_Thane

This is a situation of wanting something that is basically not possible (or at least profitable). Before you immediately click "quote" and reply to only the first sentence of this post read the rest.

1. Pure "skill" PvP can only be found in the FPS genre. Why do I say that? Quite simple: it provides about as close to equal odds as anything can. FPS games rely heavily on player skill. The only limitations are your hardware and connection. Factors like class balance, gear, levels and one of the ten other off setting factors do not effect you. MMO PvP is not as skillz oriented as people want you to believe.

2. A pure PvP game is also setting itself up for a very narrow market. I recognize that PvP players are vocal but the community size does not match in numbers to the decibels of the shouting. You might find yourself in a very small game (see Planetside).

3. You might find yourself with nothing to do. MMOs are 24/7. That doesn't mean there are players active at all times. If you play off peak you could literally log in to nothing or so few players it isn't fun. Who likes to play Battlefield with only three people on the map? I don't. PvE content at least provides -something- for a player to do solo.

4. You still might find yourself with nothing to do. If you want to be solo or your guild isn't on and a rival guild is out in force you might get bowled over and ganked over and over again until you just log out. This happens in Warhammer Online when one side gets over whelming force for a play period. Eventually, after being destroyed with no chance of victory over and over, even the bravest defenders just leave. With PvP your play experience is too dependent on other players. This leads to a very volatile and inconsistent experience.

I'm sure I'll get lots of disagreement but most of that stuff isn't opinion. Those are real concerns when trying to make a profitable product. I am no PvP lover but I love having the -option-. Battlegrounds, scenarios and PvP specific zones float my boat. The idea that a game would be centered on that, however, does not.
 

QFT Kudos Ferrel!