I got out of everquest when it became impossible to find groups and it was impossible to continue without grouping. The early levels, over course, you could solo easily. The higher levels you only needed one or two people. Then it became impossible without a full group. It seems like forced social interaction.

Why can't they make it so that the bad guys recognize a group level and adjusts accordingly so that a solo player would have to work hard to be successful, but so would a group against that same boss? Surely it can't be that hard.

Actually, balancing solo and group play is VERY difficult due to human nature. If I can solo a mob, why would I ever group to kill it? So you end up with a solo game that groupers hate. If I can only kill most mobs with  a group, the soloers leave. WoW actually has it right, and is one of the reasons it is so successful. Most of the content is soloable, but if yoy want the gear and the experience of the instances you have to group. It keeps everyone reasonably happy.

It goes against the whole mmo thing. I have to agree to a point, but this will likely never happen.

You cant really please both crowds. If it can be soloed it will be soloed, people who enjoy grouping will indeed take the least path of resistance, thus they will solo. If you make grouping more benificial than soloing, its automatically considered "forced grouping" and the solo'ers hate it.

Thank god there's Guild Wars and it's AI controlled henchmen and heroes. Keeps it a group game atleast balance/difficulty-wise. Just a different way of doing things.

Also gives me the possibility to rely on something that is consistent in skill rather than the occasional random sucky player who doesn't understand english...

Still... skilled human players are far better than henchmen. Every new player is a gamble. Lucky GW is so old now that chance to have a skilled player is rather large albeit they are fewer in numbers.

Originally posted by angre1

 It seems like forced social interaction.

It is forced social interaction, but if you think that's the goal you are entirely missing the point.

No one wants to force you to interact with anyone. I certainly dont' want to force you to interact with me.

however, I do want a team game.

Imagine if you will, that there is a basketball game, and you want to play solo on the same court. That is going to seriously screw up my team based basket ball game.

And that's what you get when you change the rules on the server to accomomodate the solo players. You seriously screw up my grouping game.

It's nto that I want to MAKE or FORCE you to group. I seriously do not. I just want to play basket ball in teams, or in an MMORPG play the Tank, Nuke, Heal dynamic or something like.

There really is no way to make the game solo friendly without screwing it up for the groupers, or vice a versa. If you can solo, then guess what? I can solo, and my group game is now a piece of crap not worth playing.

It is exacly like chaning the NBA and saying that people can run onto the court and shoot baskets on their own during a game, it's now part of hte rules.

Best you can do, is different rules for different servers. Do I mind if you shoot baskets by yourself? Of course I do not. But that doesn't mean you get to change the rules of basketball to allow that during a team game. That messes up the team game if you're doing that on the court at the same time I'm trying to play a game.

Different courts would mean different servers.

Basically, people that like to solo call for "balance" and mean, give me a solo game.

Quit it with the sports analogies!  Nerds only here!  But - as we are on that topic - mmorpgs almost always have different zones (even the non zoned sandbox games).  Zones can be broken down into sub areas.  Think of zones and sub areas as courts.  Some area/courts are intended for solo players, others for teams and then you have the pro raiders will full TV coverage.  There is no rule to say that someone who likes to solo can't also play group or go pro just as there is no rule saying a pro player can't shoot some solo hoops.  They are given different zones for different play types.

EQ2 supports solo, small group, full group, 2X raiding and 4X raiding and its all active used content.  Proof it does work.   It worked in WoW as well. 

Originally posted by horrid

Quit it with the sports analogies!  Nerds only here!  But - as we are on that topic - mmorpgs almost always have different zones (even the non zoned sandbox games).  Zones can be broken down into sub areas.  Think of zones and sub areas as courts.  Some area/courts are intended for solo players, others for teams and then you have the pro raiders will full TV coverage.  There is no rule to say that someone who likes to solo can't also play group or go pro just as there is no rule saying a pro player can't shoot some solo hoops.  They are given different zones for different play types.

 

EQ2 supports solo, small group, full group, 2X raiding and 4X raiding and its all active used content.  Proof it does work.   It worked in WoW as well. 

 

 

There is only one COURT, because I'm talking about the RULES OF THE GAME.

The rules of the game are the same for everyone on the server. If you change the rules on the server for the solo player, you change the rules on the servr for the group player too, and screw up their group game.

AS far as I know, there is no game that has different rules for different players on the same server.

So to keep the analogy, shooting solo hoops would definitely scew up a team basketball game.

To shoot hoops and not do that, you'd need to be on another court, which means ANOTHER SERVER.

Otherwise, you change the rules for everyone, and the group based game has to now play by the solo rules.

You've basically said, HEY, I want to change the rules for your fun group based game and turn it into a solo game, and you should be happy with that, because I like solo games!

Uh, no, I still want a grouping game.

Your'e saying WoW is a great game! Look you can group if you want to!

Yes, WoW is a great solo game. If I wanted a solo game, I would certainly like WoW.

But again, I"m looking for a group game. You're just saying, why don't you play my solo game? It's much better! I still want a groupoing game, not a solo game like WoW. Your "solution" is simply a solo game. Great solution..... for solo players.

If it were balanced people would just solo anyways, rather than spend time to put a group toghether.

Forced grouping is the only way around the issue of soloers

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

If it were balanced people would just solo anyways, rather than spend time to put a group toghether.

Forced grouping is the only way around the issue of soloers

Best way to describe it succintly.

If YOU can solo, then the rules are the same for ME, and I might as well solo too. It's faster to solo that put together a group.

The only way to make it worthwhile to group, is make XP at least 4x more for group play than solo play. If you call that "forced grouping" then fine, I want a forced grouping game.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

But again, I"m looking for a group game. You're just saying, why don't you play my solo game? It's much better! I still want a groupoing game, not a solo game like WoW. Your "solution" is simply a solo game. Great solution..... for solo players.

WOW is only a solo game if you're OK only seeing 1/2 the content, no dungeons and ordinary gear.  Can't play arenas alone.  Can't see the dungeons or get the best gear alone.  You're not really playing battlegrounds alone or Wintergrasp. 

People group up in WOW when they want, not because its the only option.   Like Eve, you can play alone the whole time.  Will you see the best the game has to offer?  Nope. 

It's a mentality that screams "I WANT IT ALL!! MINE MINE MINE!!!" A growing trend of people seem to think that they are entitled to everything all the time, no exception. When they're denied something because conditions haven't been met, they scream "NO FAIR!" or my favorite, "THAT'S RASCIST!!" (why do the dumbest of the bunch always add that extra S before the C?).

Try to reason with them and say "You can't have that epic sword of asskicking because it's a quest reward for a group quest." and the butthurt commences. I solo 99% of the time, so you'd think I'd agree with the whiners. I don't. I know that as long as I'm going it alone, there is content that I will not be able to experience... and I'm cool with that.

Originally posted by jonrd463

It's a mentality that screams "I WANT IT ALL!! MINE MINE MINE!!!" A growing trend of people seem to think that they are entitled to everything all the time, no exception. When they're denied something because conditions haven't been met, they scream "NO FAIR!" or my favorite, "THAT'S RASCIST!!" (why do the dumbest of the bunch always add that extra S before the C?).

Try to reason with them and say "You can't have that epic sword of asskicking because it's a quest reward for a group quest." and the butthurt commences. I solo 99% of the time, so you'd think I'd agree with the whiners. I don't. I know that as long as I'm going it alone, there is content that I will not be able to experience... and I'm cool with that.

The problem with all of this is that the best gear can only be achieved through group raids. Then, even if you did manage to get in a raid and succeed, the odds you'd actually get something you wanted was tiny. It's just a horrible way to get people to play longer, it's not part of some ridiculous 'group reward' system.

You should be able to achieve great rewards without a group. Group play should reward people with things like higher xp gains, less down time, more intense fights (group based skills, bad-ass bosses, etc...) and perhaps things like fame or faction gain. People should want to group because it's fun, not forced.

Originally posted by angre1

I got out of everquest when it became impossible to find groups and it was impossible to continue without grouping. The early levels, over course, you could solo easily. The higher levels you only needed one or two people. Then it became impossible without a full group. It seems like forced social interaction.

Why can't they make it so that the bad guys recognize a group level and adjusts accordingly so that a solo player would have to work hard to be successful, but so would a group against that same boss? Surely it can't be that hard.

It is is possible to make a game that SCALES to the player/s,but it would still be a failed game versus a full party game.

The reason you cannot balance it ,is because of quality/content of the combat system.A real good combat system would be full of buffs/enfeebs and changing AI's from the mobs.

I guess it is still possible to scale it by have several variations of mobs,but that is asking a developer to do TOO much for a genre that is SUPPOSE to be about group play.

If the OP or anyone has played a bunch of rubbish games,then i guess they won't understand what i am saying so i will try to give an example.The game tries to give it's mob a set of AI that can battle against several enfeebs and buffs,it the mob was too simple mined to react only to a single player ,then it would be crushed by a full group.

Imagine 2x rooting,then 2x dots,then maybe a massive nuker,the mob  if it were built to combat a solo player would be destroyed easily before it got close to any players.Now if you make that same mob strong enough in it's AI to battle against a full group it would be too strong for a solo player.FFXI actually has the best combat system on the planet and it is geared towards a full group.However the REDMAGE has been given so many tools by time it reaches only level 50,it can actually sometimes fight better than a full group,the reason is because of TP building,too many whacking at the mob gives it TP for big damage tp moves.

SO there are many ways to do combat,in EQ2 you can deff solo most everything other than named bosses,the problem is that dungeons or even bosses for that matter are always surrounded by too much aggro.Take away that aggro to comply with a solo player and the effort is too easy for the group.

You also have to factor in respawn times.If they are too fast the solo player would be over whelmed if too slow to comply with the soloist,then it is too boring for the group.The worst part of all in makign a game solo friendly is that the majority,probably close to 90% would not bother to party,they would just solo everything and then we have a single player game PRETENDING to be a MMORPG.

So, we soloers are never suppose to have a single MMO that treats us like top dogs, it's always going to be groupers and raiders?  Bullshit.  You're so worried about your play style being ruined, but never give a damn about other play styles getting the crappy end of the stick.  Every frigging MMO out there gives groupers and raiders the best content and rewards, bar none.  It's about frakking time we soloers get one that truly caters to us.

If Bioware plays their cards right and don't cave in to the whining groupies and raiders, they might actually tap a huge market that has been waitiing for a truly casual game that doesn't pull the ever present bait and switch that is casual to start, hardcore from middle to end game.

The only game that will ever top World of Warcraft will be the one with the balls and the sense to create a casual game from beginning to end with absolutely no preferential treatment towards groupers and raiders.

Oh yeah, we all know just how anti-social soloers are.  We just pretend it's a single player game and try our hardest not to interact with other players.  OMG are you people so frakking clueless?  Stop using that tripe as some kind of proof positive that soloing is evil.  It's not even remotely true and I challenge you to proove it otherwise.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by horrid

Quit it with the sports analogies!  Nerds only here!  But - as we are on that topic - mmorpgs almost always have different zones (even the non zoned sandbox games).  Zones can be broken down into sub areas.  Think of zones and sub areas as courts.  Some area/courts are intended for solo players, others for teams and then you have the pro raiders will full TV coverage.  There is no rule to say that someone who likes to solo can't also play group or go pro just as there is no rule saying a pro player can't shoot some solo hoops.  They are given different zones for different play types.

 

EQ2 supports solo, small group, full group, 2X raiding and 4X raiding and its all active used content.  Proof it does work.   It worked in WoW as well. 

 

 

 

There is only one COURT, because I'm talking about the RULES OF THE GAME.

The rules of the game are the same for everyone on the server. If you change the rules on the server for the solo player, you change the rules on the servr for the group player too, and screw up their group game.

AS far as I know, there is no game that has different rules for different players on the same server.

So to keep the analogy, shooting solo hoops would definitely scew up a team basketball game.

To shoot hoops and not do that, you'd need to be on another court, which means ANOTHER SERVER.

Otherwise, you change the rules for everyone, and the group based game has to now play by the solo rules.

You've basically said, HEY, I want to change the rules for your fun group based game and turn it into a solo game, and you should be happy with that, because I like solo games!

Uh, no, I still want a grouping game.

Your'e saying WoW is a great game! Look you can group if you want to!

Yes, WoW is a great solo game. If I wanted a solo game, I would certainly like WoW.

But again, I"m looking for a group game. You're just saying, why don't you play my solo game? It's much better! I still want a groupoing game, not a solo game like WoW. Your "solution" is simply a solo game. Great solution..... for solo players.

Everytime that idiotic basketball analogy comes up I have to shake my head in dibelief.

It is based entirely on the presumption that the group-based design is the right design.  In fact that design is purely arbitrary and neither right or wrong.

The basketball court analogy presumes that there is a very small and limited playing field available and if both playstyles are allowed in at the same time, there will not be any room.   That is purely a limitation of the design of a  basketball court.  One can very easily design a basketball court where a team game is in progress while mutlitple soloers are shooting baskets in the same time.   The reason that it is not done is because everyone assumes that the team players will share the court with the soloers in such a way that both groups can enjoy themselves.  They either take turns or the soloers join up with a team or a team just does solo activities together. 

The implication of the basketball analogy is that group players are selfish snobs who cannot abide the fact that soloes might use the same space as they do and are completely unwilling to share. 

This has been posted before and I will answer the same way. Asheron's Call did it just fine back in '99.

 The ones that keep asking this probably never played AC .You just take your character to an area or dungeon for your level and either solo or group play it.I mostly solo'ed if I was treasure hunting or grouped if I felt in the mood for more experience(although exp/hour  could be lower if you were in a group of slackers but not necessarily so depends on the case.

The only way to balance it out is to have 60% group content and 40% solo content. Notice when games have more solo content the community is garbage. Give the edge to the grouping content and give bonuses for grouping becuase thats what makes the MM in the mmo. I think some things can be soloed and should have some spots and side quests for that. Soloing is only viable when you cant find a group imo. If there are levels in the game grouping should be faster than leveling as well.

Originally posted by Eronakis

Soloing is only viable when you cant find a group imo.

Exactly why players prefer solo. Because after about 1 hour i still cant find a tank! So the game should cater to both group and solo.

No doubt most people will go the solo route if its in the game, but if the rewards of group is a much faster time to complete, and gain more , say achivements , than there will still be players willing to group.

Ultimately i think new and future mmos will cater to both types of players, since no company is willing to cater to only a small group of players after investing millions into it.

I would have two tiers of quests, a solo chain and a group chain. The solo chain would be akin to the night time quests in AoC. These would be your special destiny quests, everything else would require a group. The solo quests would give item, reputation and resource rewards but no xp, to gain levels you must group.

If you start a game and you immediately need to team up, even if its just in a group of two, you will immediately get into and stay in the grouping mentality until endgame. If you start with soloing for the first twenty levels that’s what you are going to want to do for the rest for the game.