Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Meleagar

Think about what you're saying; you're saying that even though soloers **cannot** ever get equal rewards, they **should** have enough incentive to play a game anyway; but in my imagined game, that the groupers get the rewards **faster** isn't even enough for them.

I guess it's a good thing I didn't suggest a game where soloing got exclusively better rewards, eh? I guess groupers, for the most part, only play games to get stuff that other players cannot get, but - strangely - expect those other people to play the game anyway.

Yeah I guess it's a difference in my views about what MMO's are like. To me, casual means soloer. 

And a casual shouldn't get access (and shouldn't even imagine about getting access) to gain the best rewards alone.

 

That is elitist BS.  What rewards you get should be based on the effort you put into the game. 

The problem is that the current crop of MMOs puts a ridiculously high weight ont he effort of raiders/groupers.  A casual/soloer can put a lot of effort into the game but it is discounted so much in favour of what the groupers do that they are made to look like lazy bums.  It completely skews the metric.  Once you recognize that what the groupers do is nothing special, the metric shifts to a more realistic position.

And then there is the fact that a solo'er is not always a casual gamer.  I put 40 hours/week into a game I like.  I prefer to do as much as I can soloing or with perhaps 1 friend.  At 40 hours a week you cannot say I am a "Casual" player, I play just as much as a "hardcore" player.  I prefer to avoid groups because I find too many people who do not know anything about TEAMWORK in them.  I hate joining a group and finding I am in what I call a "legion of Doom" where I will usually die often because the tank or the healer doesn't know whats expected of them... or someone goes off and triggers more mobs then we, as a group, can handle.

  There are many different types of game play and a Game should be designed to give all of them a good time, otherwise those who feel left out will take their money elsewhere.  Believe me - the money is what the People who put out games care about.

Originally posted by Torik

 That is elitist BS.  What rewards you get should be based on the effort you put into the game. 

The problem is that the current crop of MMOs puts a ridiculously high weight ont he effort of raiders/groupers.  A casual/soloer can put a lot of effort into the game but it is discounted so much in favour of what the groupers do that they are made to look like lazy bums.  It completely skews the metric.  Once you recognize that what the groupers do is nothing special, the metric shifts to a more realistic position.

Yeah, but how big % of HC players mind grouping up in the first place? Most of the soloers are casual, most of the groupers are not (as casual).

And casual doesn't put as much effort to the game as HC does. If he did, he'd become a HC too. Endgame shouldn't be something a casual/soloer can't do, but to each their own. Casual/soloers get their own challenges, and HC/groupers get their own. If casuals want to come behind the HC but get the same gain as they do, they better come behind by a wide margin (or everyone would solo, making grouping pointless).

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Torik

 That is elitist BS.  What rewards you get should be based on the effort you put into the game. 

The problem is that the current crop of MMOs puts a ridiculously high weight ont he effort of raiders/groupers.  A casual/soloer can put a lot of effort into the game but it is discounted so much in favour of what the groupers do that they are made to look like lazy bums.  It completely skews the metric.  Once you recognize that what the groupers do is nothing special, the metric shifts to a more realistic position.

Yeah, but how big % of HC players mind grouping up in the first place? Most of the soloers are casual, most of the groupers are not (as casual).

And casual doesn't put as much effort to the game as HC does. If he did, he'd become a HC too. Endgame shouldn't be something a casual/soloer can't do, but to each their own. Casual/soloers get their own challenges, and HC/groupers get their own. If casuals want to come behind the HC but get the same gain as they do, they better come behind by a wide margin (or everyone would solo, making grouping pointless).

your theory is flawed - most of the casual players I know join groups.  A solo'er often puts more work into the game - notice I said solo'er not casual.  Casual players join groups so they can put less work into the game. In essence Casual play and group play are linked according to my experience.

Originally posted by elderotter

And then there is the fact that a solo'er is not always a casual gamer.  I put 40 hours/week into a game I like.  I prefer to do as much as I can soloing or with perhaps 1 friend.  At 40 hours a week you cannot say I am a "Casual" player, I play just as much as a "hardcore" player.  I prefer to avoid groups because I find too many people who do not know anything about TEAMWORK in them.  I hate joining a group and finding I am in what I call a "legion of Doom" where I will usually die often because the tank or the healer doesn't know whats expected of them... or someone goes off and triggers more mobs then we, as a group, can handle.

  There are many different types of game play and a Game should be designed to give all of them a good time, otherwise those who feel left out will take their money elsewhere.  Believe me - the money is what the People who put out games care about.

That is just you being stubborn. You can group, but you choose not to? Well then, don't be all whiny when you can't access everything the game has to offer if you choose not to play by it's rules in the first place.

And guess what could be the reason they don't know about teamwork... is it because they have soloed most of their time and don't know how group functions? It's more likely than you think. Soloers are what kills your teamwork experience, sadly (the casual kind).

I don't agree about your last paragraph either, but meh.. 

Originally posted by elderotter

your theory is flawed - most of the casual players I know join groups.  A solo'er often puts more work into the game - notice I said solo'er not casual.  Casual players join groups so they can put less work into the game. In essence Casual play and group play are linked according to my experience.

Which one is easier, going out to solo without having to deal with making groups, or making a group, dealing with replacements, lfging for long periods of time... Those 'casuals' weren't maybe as casual as you thought (if they have time for such things)

Originally posted by Torik

That is elitist BS.  What rewards you get should be based on the effort you put into the game. 

The problem is that the current crop of MMOs puts a ridiculously high weight ont he effort of raiders/groupers.  A casual/soloer can put a lot of effort into the game but it is discounted so much in favour of what the groupers do that they are made to look like lazy bums.  It completely skews the metric.  Once you recognize that what the groupers do is nothing special, the metric shifts to a more realistic position.

I think I'll start calling them "group entitlement whores" .. people that think that just because they play in groups, they are entitled to exclusively superior rewards.  I'll throw them in with "powergamer entitlement whores" .. players that think that just because they have more free time and a willingness to sacrifice their real life for a video game, they should get exclusively superior rewards.

Originally posted by angre1

I got out of everquest when it became impossible to find groups and it was impossible to continue without grouping. The early levels, over course, you could solo easily. The higher levels you only needed one or two people. Then it became impossible without a full group. It seems like forced social interaction.

Why can't they make it so that the bad guys recognize a group level and adjusts accordingly so that a solo player would have to work hard to be successful, but so would a group against that same boss? Surely it can't be that hard.

Bioware is doing this in TOR. They already used it in Neverwinter nights so it is possible and works. It is the loot that is the hard thing to balance because a group with 6 players should get more and better loot than a single player, at least the way I see it. The solution is to spawn more and tougher bosses with better loot to 6 pplayers thanto 1.

Also I still want some specific dungeons where you actually need a full group to complete it. Some scaling dungeons is not a bad idea, no, but it is more fun in a group and therefor at least some places should have forced grouping.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by elderotter

And then there is the fact that a solo'er is not always a casual gamer.  I put 40 hours/week into a game I like.  I prefer to do as much as I can soloing or with perhaps 1 friend.  At 40 hours a week you cannot say I am a "Casual" player, I play just as much as a "hardcore" player.  I prefer to avoid groups because I find too many people who do not know anything about TEAMWORK in them.  I hate joining a group and finding I am in what I call a "legion of Doom" where I will usually die often because the tank or the healer doesn't know whats expected of them... or someone goes off and triggers more mobs then we, as a group, can handle.

  There are many different types of game play and a Game should be designed to give all of them a good time, otherwise those who feel left out will take their money elsewhere.  Believe me - the money is what the People who put out games care about.

That is just you being stubborn. You can group, but you choose not to? Well then, don't be all whiny when you can't access everything the game has to offer if you choose not to play by it's rules in the first place.

And guess what could be the reason they don't know about teamwork... is it because they have soloed most of their time and don't know how group functions? It's more likely than you think. Soloers are what kills your teamwork experience, sadly (the casual kind).

I don't agree about your last paragraph either, but meh.. 

1) did not whine about anything - I just objected to calling solo'ers casual.

2) Mostly people who do not know about team play  were not taught it in real life.

3) Of course you didn't agree with my last paragraph - you want the games to be only as you like them and to Hell with anyone else. 

4) I play games as I like, and have no problem letting people play as they like.  I just object to people making flawed statements about all cases to support their theory that each game should address only their concerns and to be to their liking.  When I need something you can only get from a group or a raid - better believe i join a group or a raid - however it is usually within the guild I belong to so that I know the players involved and we can discuss the tactics and strategy needed, not just some spur of the moment loose coalition of people who  are looking out for themselves and not the other members of the group.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by elderotter

And then there is the fact that a solo'er is not always a casual gamer.  I put 40 hours/week into a game I like.  I prefer to do as much as I can soloing or with perhaps 1 friend.  At 40 hours a week you cannot say I am a "Casual" player, I play just as much as a "hardcore" player.  I prefer to avoid groups because I find too many people who do not know anything about TEAMWORK in them.  I hate joining a group and finding I am in what I call a "legion of Doom" where I will usually die often because the tank or the healer doesn't know whats expected of them... or someone goes off and triggers more mobs then we, as a group, can handle.

  There are many different types of game play and a Game should be designed to give all of them a good time, otherwise those who feel left out will take their money elsewhere.  Believe me - the money is what the People who put out games care about.

That is just you being stubborn. You can group, but you choose not to? Well then, don't be all whiny when you can't access everything the game has to offer if you choose not to play by it's rules in the first place.

And guess what could be the reason they don't know about teamwork... is it because they have soloed most of their time and don't know how group functions? It's more likely than you think. Soloers are what kills your teamwork experience, sadly (the casual kind).

I don't agree about your last paragraph either, but meh.. 

Advocating for a game that is designed differently isn't "whining".  You're free to advocate for the kind of game you want; stop whining when others advocate for the kind of game they want.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by elderotter

your theory is flawed - most of the casual players I know join groups.  A solo'er often puts more work into the game - notice I said solo'er not casual.  Casual players join groups so they can put less work into the game. In essence Casual play and group play are linked according to my experience.

Which one is easier, going out to solo without having to deal with making groups, or making a group, dealing with replacements, lfging for long periods of time... Those 'casuals' weren't maybe as casual as you thought (if they have time for such things)

neither is easier - and my experience - in non-guild groups - a good many members of a group quit the group as soon as their needs are met instead of staying and helping all members get the quest or whatever.  What surprises me is that people on either side of the game do not seem to believe in a balanced game for everyone - they are happy only if their preferences are met.  Myself I play games to have a good time and I usually help people who need help whether it meets my needs or not.  Solo play does not mean being selfish as some think - it means being independent.  The truly independent person also helps lower lvls and belongs to a guild and helps guild members.  they are just not tied into always grouping.  Always being in a group means  to me that your self-sufficiency is low.

Originally posted by elderotter

1) did not whine about anything - I just objected to calling solo'ers casual.

2) Mostly people who do not know about team play  were not taught it in real life.

3) Of course you didn't agree with my last paragraph - you want the games to be only as you like them and to Hell with anyone else. 

4) I play games as I like, and have no problem letting people play as they like.  I just object to people making flawed statements about all cases to support their theory that each game should address only their concerns and to be to their liking.  When I need something you can only get from a group or a raid - better believe i join a group or a raid - however it is usually within the guild I belong to so that I know the players involved and we can discuss the tactics and strategy needed, not just some spur of the moment loose coalition of people who  are looking out for themselves and not the other members of the group.

Do you want to do the same things groupers do as a soloer? If so, that is what I meant by 'whining', although the term might not be the best to be used in this situation.

I was taught by in game about teamwork, really widened my perspective about it..

#3 seems to be a common misconception around here. Replace 'games' by a 'game'. I don't want everything to be changed to how I want them, all I need is one game. I also want to have a game which is opposite from what I want, for those who completely disagree with me. I also want to have a mix of the 2, but I don't want every game to be a mix. I think it is reasonable, because in the end I want every player to get a game tailored Just for them. 

How about playing games you like, and I play games I like, that are different and do everything in the way we want them to do it? Instead of getting a 'well, something like that' version which we both play at the same time.

Originally posted by elderotter

neither is easier - and my experience - in non-guild groups - a good many members of a group quit the group as soon as their needs are met instead of staying and helping all members get the quest or whatever.  What surprises me is that people on either side of the game do not seem to believe in a balanced game for everyone - they are happy only if their preferences are met.  Myself I play games to have a good time and I usually help people who need help whether it meets my needs or not.  Solo play does not mean being selfish as some think - it means being independent.  The truly independent person also helps lower lvls and belongs to a guild and helps guild members.  they are just not tied into always grouping.  Always being in a group means  to me that your self-sufficiency is low.

Okay, which one takes less time to set up? Casuals are often those without much time, or with unstable playtimes, thus soloing appeals more to them rather than those with much time (HC player, more often than not)

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by elderotter

1) did not whine about anything - I just objected to calling solo'ers casual.

2) Mostly people who do not know about team play  were not taught it in real life.

3) Of course you didn't agree with my last paragraph - you want the games to be only as you like them and to Hell with anyone else. 

4) I play games as I like, and have no problem letting people play as they like.  I just object to people making flawed statements about all cases to support their theory that each game should address only their concerns and to be to their liking.  When I need something you can only get from a group or a raid - better believe i join a group or a raid - however it is usually within the guild I belong to so that I know the players involved and we can discuss the tactics and strategy needed, not just some spur of the moment loose coalition of people who  are looking out for themselves and not the other members of the group.

Do you want to do the same things groupers do as a soloer? If so, that is what I meant by 'whining', although the term might not be the best to be used in this situation.

I was taught by in game about teamwork, really widened my perspective about it..

#3 seems to be a common misconception around here. Replace 'games' by a 'game'. I don't want everything to be changed to how I want them, all I need is one game. I also want to have a game which is opposite from what I want, for those who completely disagree with me. I also want to have a mix of the 2, but I don't want every game to be a mix. I think it is reasonable, because in the end I want every player to get a game tailored Just for them. 

How about playing games you like, and I play games I like, that are different and do everything in the way we want them to do it? Instead of getting a 'well, something like that' version which we both play at the same time.

How about I can get something from any game I play, but apparently you cannot.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by elderotter

neither is easier - and my experience - in non-guild groups - a good many members of a group quit the group as soon as their needs are met instead of staying and helping all members get the quest or whatever.  What surprises me is that people on either side of the game do not seem to believe in a balanced game for everyone - they are happy only if their preferences are met.  Myself I play games to have a good time and I usually help people who need help whether it meets my needs or not.  Solo play does not mean being selfish as some think - it means being independent.  The truly independent person also helps lower lvls and belongs to a guild and helps guild members.  they are just not tied into always grouping.  Always being in a group means  to me that your self-sufficiency is low.

Okay, which one takes less time to set up? Casuals are often those without much time, or with unstable playtimes, thus soloing appeals more to them rather than those with much time (HC player, more often than not)

That is not necessarily true... When I solo I do not go into a game for like 1/2 hours or so - it will take me longer to achieve my goals because I do not have backup.  for instance I was just playing my Burglar solo on Lotro.  My quest said kill 10 Goblins.  Group form would be form a group and go kill the first 10 Goblins you see.  Solo form is more like scout around, find a Goblin that is alone or maybe 2 that are off to a side - kill them, go heal. If too many appear run for your life.  circle around find more stragglers, etc.  Solo'ing can take much more effort and time.

Originally posted by elderotter

How about I can get something from any game I play, but apparently you cannot.

Yeah that's nice and all but unlike in my suggestion only you are happy about the solution. 

If a game came out and it actually did the things I wished for, and you'd have <1> less game to get something from, that'd be a disaster for sure. You actually think that I can't have only one game like described, everything should be like you described, and then turn it against me by saying that <I> want everything to be just like I want..

Just as planned.

Originally posted by Loke666

 

Bioware is doing this in TOR. They already used it in Neverwinter nights so it is possible and works. It is the loot that is the hard thing to balance because a group with 6 players should get more and better loot than a single player, at least the way I see it. The solution is to spawn more and tougher bosses with better loot to 6 pplayers thanto 1.

Also I still want some specific dungeons where you actually need a full group to complete it. Some scaling dungeons is not a bad idea, no, but it is more fun in a group and therefor at least some places should have forced grouping.

I think the thing about grouping is that it's both the most fun and the least fun depending on the group. So it's worth trying to encourage grouping but to do that you partly need to try and reduce the negative aspects.

I think a lot of the negatives around grouping revolves around loot so I think what should happen is if a group kills a mob they all get to loot the corpse - especially so if it's a boss mob.

Originally posted by elderotter

That is not necessarily true... When I solo I do not go into a game for like 1/2 hours or so - it will take me longer to achieve my goals because I do not have backup.  for instance I was just playing my Burglar solo on Lotro.  My quest said kill 10 Goblins.  Group form would be form a group and go kill the first 10 Goblins you see.  Solo form is more like scout around, find a Goblin that is alone or maybe 2 that are off to a side - kill them, go heal. If too many appear run for your life.  circle around find more stragglers, etc.  Solo'ing can take much more effort and time.

Good point, but what if you had to leave in the middle of the quest? Your group surely wouldn't like that, but when you solo nobody cares.. which is what casuals like I guess.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think might happen. The genre becomes saturated with WoW clones. Themepark games like Aion, WoW, LOTRO, EQ2, all the F2P grinders, etc., etc.

All those games are competing for the same players, and eventually there's not enough players to go around for all the themepark solo games.

There are players on the sidelines, that won't pay 15 bucks a month for these mass appeal games.

Eventually, you get to the point where developing a mass appeal game won't necessarily get you a bunch of players because you're competing with so many other mass appeal games.

however, you CAN appeal to a niche that is not being catered to, and get enough players to make a profit. This would be the sandbox players, FFA PvP, and group players, etc.

Those markets could become very attractive, if the choices are throwing your mass appeal themepark wow clone in with all the rest, or catering to a specific audience that's willing to throw money at you for a good game.

At some point making a "niche" game becomes less of a gamble than going for the big hit that competes for WoW players.

DArkfall should show that better than anything else. It's a crappy game, and they still got a goood many players (enough to make a decent profit if you keep development costs low) because those players don't have a lot of choices in the market place.

Imagine if you made a really goood FFA game, or a really good grouping game. Sure, you don't compete with WoW, but you have a player base that's looking for a game like that.

Extremely unlikely since the business model of MMOs has fundamentally changed to go after only these huge crowds of people.  You have to remember that niche gamers represent a minuscule percentage of the total marketplace and most of those gamers are still playing WoW clones while waiting for something better to appear on the horizon.

I honestly think you're seriously overestimate the number of people looking for a pure grouping game, if you got all the people in the world in one room who wanted a game where everyone is forced to group, you might still have room left over.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Cephus404

Except that it hasn't.  There are no major games that are that way, the few that ever were are holdouts from the days when MMOs were made for the hardcore, before the genre went mainstream.  It *WAS* financially viable.  It's just not today, not if you have shareholders who want as much profit as you can give them.

Except you have no proof that it wouldn't be financially viable today. Only fact here is that it was financially viable in the HC times, and as long as nobody makes a <casual> forced grouping MMO we'll never find out.

So, greed rules the industry eh? I'm happy to tell you there are still innovative game companies out there, that understand that doing things the same way as before ain't gonna make much profit these days.

The fact that it doesn't exist in the modern realm and no one we know of is working on one is pretty decent evidence though.  Greed rules *EVERY* industry, all the innovative people in the world still need a paycheck, innovation never paid the bills.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by elderotter

That is not necessarily true... When I solo I do not go into a game for like 1/2 hours or so - it will take me longer to achieve my goals because I do not have backup.  for instance I was just playing my Burglar solo on Lotro.  My quest said kill 10 Goblins.  Group form would be form a group and go kill the first 10 Goblins you see.  Solo form is more like scout around, find a Goblin that is alone or maybe 2 that are off to a side - kill them, go heal. If too many appear run for your life.  circle around find more stragglers, etc.  Solo'ing can take much more effort and time.

Good point, but what if you had to leave in the middle of the quest? Your group surely wouldn't like that, but when you solo nobody cares.. which is what casuals like I guess.

Also a good point. However if you leave the quest in the middle as a solo you hurt your self, maybe. If you leave in the middle as part of the group - you affect everyone in the group because they have to either play 1 person short or waste time lloking for a replacement.