Disregarding the seven pages before me: because they can't balance only solo play or only group play...

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Vendegaar

My biggest gripe with grouping - and what made me go SOLO to begin with - is that my past experience was with people who advertise for group members for a quest and then when we get to the quest they take all of the goodies and when they achieve their goals they just bail out and leave me in the midst of deep S**T.

 

Exactly.  As I've pointed out before, the group dynamic in just about every MMO exists for using others for your own ends.  Every member of the group is after their own XP, their own loot, their own uber-gear, they're just using the other group members to have a better chance at getting it  faster and easier.  There's no commitment to the group itself, only to your own wants and desires, when you stop getting what you want, what's the point of sticking around to help others?

 

It wasn't always like that though. I think the soloer mentality really brought that whole attitude you just described to the forefront. Players used to be fine having to group to get levels because that was the only way they could level. If you were a jerk or a loot whore, you didn't get groups and you didnt level, because attitude and reputation meant everything. In todays solo-infested games, the only thing that matters is gear, and you can be a complete idiot and asshole and still get in groups, because it seems like most players are the same way; selfish, ignorant assholes who would rather play by themselves, and only play an MMO so they can show off their gear.

There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge.  That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace.  Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off.  That's the reality whether you like it or not.

There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people.  Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box.  Times change.  Maybe it's time you did too.

Yeah, and now we see how the MMO's have 'developed' in the recent years because of it....

Maybe it's time to take a step back and think for a second.

Originally posted by Cephus404

There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge.  That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace.  Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off.  That's the reality whether you like it or not.

There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people.  Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box.  Times change.  Maybe it's time you did too.

I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players.  I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids.  If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it.  The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding. 

Originally posted by Godliest

Disregarding the seven pages before me: because they can't balance only solo play or only group play...

People in this thread don't care about balance (because it is being done is some games and they just don't want to hear).

This is just the old WoW pro-raid / anti-raid debate that has been going on in WoW forums for years. 

Many MMOs don't even have this issue, as far as I'm concerned they should just move this thread and the other one just like to the WoW section.

And for the record I find WAR's public groups to be to perfect balance. Because I can still solo and get group rewards. Because one can play a very solo style in a public group.

Originally posted by Broomy

Originally posted by Cephus404

There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge.  That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace.  Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off.  That's the reality whether you like it or not.

There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people.  Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box.  Times change.  Maybe it's time you did too.

 

I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players.  I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids.  If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it.  The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding. 

You just contradicted yourself.  You just said everyone would solo the content if they could.  Why would they leave? I you gave them the option of soloing it, or grouping it, and they would rather solo it, why should they leave? They're doing what they would  prefer doing to get the same content.

All you, and those like you, are doing is trying to justify the fact that you want people to be forced to group if they want to achieve exclusively superior rewards. It doesn't matter if it takes the soloer a longer time than the accumlated hours of everyone involved in a raid, or if their solo-tuned content is actually harder, or if it would take the casual player 2 years of real time to get an equal reward that you got in 2 months, you don't want them to **ever** get it. It's not about how easy or hard it is, nor is it about how much time it takes; it's actually about getting the EXCLUSIVITY of the superior reward. If you can't have something that **most** other players don't have and cannot get, you don't enjoy the game.

The sad, hypocritical part of this is that without that ocean of soloers and casual groupers and occasional groupers and non-raiders and non-powergamers, you don't have anyone to feel superior to, which is why you argue and rant against developers even MAKING a game that caters to casuals and solers - that ocean of players would abandon your self-serving caste-system MMOGs in droves and head over to where they aren't coded in as the scrubs and red-headed stepchildren.

You EXPECT them to play and play in huge numbers in your game, financing your self-serving expansions and "end-game" content, where if you had to switch positions with them and settle for 3rd rate common rewards you wouldn't even play, and you have the nerve to tell them that THEY are greedy loot-whores because they aren't satisfied being your peasants and commoners.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by elderotter

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by elderotter

So you are saying there are not a lot of groupers who are jerks and do the group thing to get what they want and then leave the group?

They get to endgame by soloing and then do that..

If grouping is encouraged from the first levels, those kind of jerks will be kicked out of groups sooner or later and can't progress further. Still, some idiots will get through the sieve, but there will be much less of those players around than usually.

even jerks pay the sub and have a right to play, thus making yet more solo players.  those who are jerks and no one groups with, and those who dislike groups because of all the jerks and prefer to do it their selves, and also me who likes the challenge of soloing.  Forced grouping is pointless, balanced play is better.  I am not saying that all gear/loot should be accesible to both styles - but if I can solo it(due to my skill at playing and my knowledge of my character's strengths and weaknesses) I should be able to.  Note: I need a new keyboard, keys are sticking - please excuse my typos - the q key seems to show up when ever it pleases.

 

But that's not balance, you're just asking for a solo game.

You have a skewed idea of the definition of balance.  Grouping and group  based games are not about balance nor do they define it.  Every MMO gives groupers the better deal, bar none.  So screw you if we think we deserve to have at least one MMO that caters to us without making us second class gamers.

There is no point in arguing.  Groupers have an agenda and soloers have an agenda.  Groupers have always had the upper hand when it comes to a game's reward system and they can't stand the thought of sharing.  The very definition of greed and entitlement.  I can hear the school yard bully from my past......my play style is better than yours noob.........

Originally posted by Broomy

Originally posted by Cephus404

There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge.  That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace.  Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off.  That's the reality whether you like it or not.

There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people.  Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box.  Times change.  Maybe it's time you did too.

 

I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players.  I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids.  If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it.  The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding. 

Who gives a crap about them, they are the minoirty that have dominated the market for far too long.  You are outnumbered and who exactly do you think companies should be trying to keep?

Effort invested into a game is relative to the player,  Your arbitrary standard is the exact reason why mainstream looks down on this industry as a bunch of freakish nerds with no life.

It's time to move away from the hardcore, second job style MMOs and venture into main stream entertainment.  You may not like it, but there are a LOT more people who would.

Originally posted by Broomy

Originally posted by SwampRob

 Soloers are not crying for an easy button, they are asking only for an alternate method to the same results.    If you are a pro-grouper and resent another player from getting the same gear you did without grouping, even if it's a much longer way, ask yourself why.

 

Oh yes they are.  Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own.  Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self.  And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group.  Tabula Rasa was like that.  It's now defunct. 

Show me proof that soloing was even in the top 10 reasons why Tabula Rasa failed.  You people are grasping at straws with these unsubstantiated claims. 

What we do know is that the genre has expanded exponentially since it became more casual and solo friendly.  You do the frakking math.

Originally posted by Meleagar

Originally posted by Broomy

Originally posted by Cephus404

There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge.  That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace.  Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off.  That's the reality whether you like it or not.

There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people.  Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box.  Times change.  Maybe it's time you did too.

 

I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players.  I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids.  If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it.  The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding. 

 

You just contradicted yourself.  You just said everyone would solo the content if they could.  Why would they leave? I you gave them the option of soloing it, or grouping it, and they would rather solo it, why should they leave? They're doing what they would  prefer doing to get the same content.

All you, and those like you, are doing is trying to justify the fact that you want people to be forced to group if they want to achieve exclusively superior rewards. It doesn't matter if it takes the soloer a longer time than the accumlated hours of everyone involved in a raid, or if their solo-tuned content is actually harder, or if it would take the casual player 2 years of real time to get an equal reward that you got in 2 months, you don't want them to **ever** get it. It's not about how easy or hard it is, nor is it about how much time it takes; it's actually about getting the EXCLUSIVITY of the superior reward. If you can't have something that **most** other players don't have and cannot get, you don't enjoy the game.

The sad, hypocritical part of this is that without that ocean of soloers and casual groupers and occasional groupers and non-raiders and non-powergamers, you don't have anyone to feel superior to, which is why you argue and rant against developers even MAKING a game that caters to casuals and solers - that ocean of players would abandon your self-serving caste-system MMOGs in droves and head over to where they aren't coded in as the scrubs and red-headed stepchildren.

You EXPECT them to play and play in huge numbers in your game, financing your self-serving expansions and "end-game" content, where if you had to switch positions with them and settle for 3rd rate common rewards you wouldn't even play, and you have the nerve to tell them that THEY are greedy loot-whores because they aren't satisfied being your peasants and commoners.

Exactly.

The very same reason why PvP oriented games don't want casuals to be able to compete.  You gotta have that fodder running around so you can vent your nerd rage.

Originally posted by Broomy

Oh yes they are.  Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own.  Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self.  And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group.  Tabula Rasa was like that.  It's now defunct.

False as proven by CoH/CoV.  A game that is solo-able, didn't even have gear, and yet most people grouped. 

Which is why I play CoH/CoV for 5 years and I didn't play WoW.  

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by elderotter

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by elderotter

So you are saying there are not a lot of groupers who are jerks and do the group thing to get what they want and then leave the group?

They get to endgame by soloing and then do that..

If grouping is encouraged from the first levels, those kind of jerks will be kicked out of groups sooner or later and can't progress further. Still, some idiots will get through the sieve, but there will be much less of those players around than usually.

even jerks pay the sub and have a right to play, thus making yet more solo players.  those who are jerks and no one groups with, and those who dislike groups because of all the jerks and prefer to do it their selves, and also me who likes the challenge of soloing.  Forced grouping is pointless, balanced play is better.  I am not saying that all gear/loot should be accesible to both styles - but if I can solo it(due to my skill at playing and my knowledge of my character's strengths and weaknesses) I should be able to.  Note: I need a new keyboard, keys are sticking - please excuse my typos - the q key seems to show up when ever it pleases.

 

But that's not balance, you're just asking for a solo game.

You read but do not comprehend, you wish some one to blame for you're not being able to find a group so those who solo come to hand.  We are not the problem, nor is balanced game play. 

the problem, I fear is that you will never be satisfied unless the game is exactly as You want it, and it will probably never be even if there is nothing that can be done by solo play. 

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Originally posted by Broomy

Oh yes they are.  Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own.  Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self.  And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group.  Tabula Rasa was like that.  It's now defunct.

 

False as proven by CoH/CoV.  A game that is solo-able, didn't even have gear, and yet most people grouped. 

Which is why I play CoH/CoV for 5 years and I didn't play WoW.  

 

I agree - in CoV I just solo'd a character to lvl 10.  From my experience, though, it gets harder at this point to solo.  One can, but to do so means doing quests at a low reputation and takes far longer.  If you group you can set the rep high - more mobs, more xp and quicker leveling results. 

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by Meleagar

Originally posted by Broomy

Originally posted by Cephus404

There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge.  That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace.  Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off.  That's the reality whether you like it or not.

There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people.  Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box.  Times change.  Maybe it's time you did too.

 

I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players.  I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids.  If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it.  The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding. 

 

You just contradicted yourself.  You just said everyone would solo the content if they could.  Why would they leave? I you gave them the option of soloing it, or grouping it, and they would rather solo it, why should they leave? They're doing what they would  prefer doing to get the same content.

All you, and those like you, are doing is trying to justify the fact that you want people to be forced to group if they want to achieve exclusively superior rewards. It doesn't matter if it takes the soloer a longer time than the accumlated hours of everyone involved in a raid, or if their solo-tuned content is actually harder, or if it would take the casual player 2 years of real time to get an equal reward that you got in 2 months, you don't want them to **ever** get it. It's not about how easy or hard it is, nor is it about how much time it takes; it's actually about getting the EXCLUSIVITY of the superior reward. If you can't have something that **most** other players don't have and cannot get, you don't enjoy the game.

The sad, hypocritical part of this is that without that ocean of soloers and casual groupers and occasional groupers and non-raiders and non-powergamers, you don't have anyone to feel superior to, which is why you argue and rant against developers even MAKING a game that caters to casuals and solers - that ocean of players would abandon your self-serving caste-system MMOGs in droves and head over to where they aren't coded in as the scrubs and red-headed stepchildren.

You EXPECT them to play and play in huge numbers in your game, financing your self-serving expansions and "end-game" content, where if you had to switch positions with them and settle for 3rd rate common rewards you wouldn't even play, and you have the nerve to tell them that THEY are greedy loot-whores because they aren't satisfied being your peasants and commoners.

 

Exactly.

 

The very same reason why PvP oriented games don't want casuals to be able to compete.  You gotta have that fodder running around so you can vent your nerd rage.

once again the linkage between casuals and solo.  Many of us who solo play put in as many if not more hours on the game as groupers.  Since things are easier to do in a group I think it is you groupers who are the "Casual" players.

Originally posted by Meleagar

Originally posted by Broomy

Originally posted by Cephus404

There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge.  That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace.  Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off.  That's the reality whether you like it or not.

There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people.  Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box.  Times change.  Maybe it's time you did too.

 

I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players.  I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids.  If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it.  The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding. 

 

You just contradicted yourself.  You just said everyone would solo the content if they could.  Why would they leave? I you gave them the option of soloing it, or grouping it, and they would rather solo it, why should they leave? They're doing what they would  prefer doing to get the same content.

All you, and those like you, are doing is trying to justify the fact that you want people to be forced to group if they want to achieve exclusively superior rewards. It doesn't matter if it takes the soloer a longer time than the accumlated hours of everyone involved in a raid, or if their solo-tuned content is actually harder, or if it would take the casual player 2 years of real time to get an equal reward that you got in 2 months, you don't want them to **ever** get it. It's not about how easy or hard it is, nor is it about how much time it takes; it's actually about getting the EXCLUSIVITY of the superior reward. If you can't have something that **most** other players don't have and cannot get, you don't enjoy the game.

The sad, hypocritical part of this is that without that ocean of soloers and casual groupers and occasional groupers and non-raiders and non-powergamers, you don't have anyone to feel superior to, which is why you argue and rant against developers even MAKING a game that caters to casuals and solers - that ocean of players would abandon your self-serving caste-system MMOGs in droves and head over to where they aren't coded in as the scrubs and red-headed stepchildren.

You EXPECT them to play and play in huge numbers in your game, financing your self-serving expansions and "end-game" content, where if you had to switch positions with them and settle for 3rd rate common rewards you wouldn't even play, and you have the nerve to tell them that THEY are greedy loot-whores because they aren't satisfied being your peasants and commoners.

Wrong, I am not contradicting myself.  If you preferrred grouping, and players in the game knew they could get something via soloing, who would you have to group with?  Getting groups would be impossible.  I played TR and saw EXACTLY that happen.  After a while many people just gave up trying to get groups and left.  The game was left with a bunch of soloers and the game FAILED.  I dont give a frakk what anyone else has to say, that was one of the MAIN reasons TR failed.  No need for groups or raids.  Go read their forums, its all there.  I played in beta through luanch and several months after. 

On your second point your getting real personal.  you dont know me from adam or what I want from a game.  I acutally solo alot, and I COULD CARE LESS what uber raider has to where compared to me.  And there is your obvious failure:  LOOT ENVY.  The fact is the ONLY HYPOCRITE here is you.  You resent people that want superior gear and make fun of those that prefer it.  AND at the SAME TIME YOU DEMAND THAT People like you, SOLOERS, have access to it.  Pathetic.  Make up your mind...you want superior gear dont you?  I bet you do.  And like most carebears you want it for free with no work and no effort.  SOMETHING FOR NOTHING.  How typical.

I wish developers woould make a game for people like you, and get them out of ours.  You could just log in, hit the "I WIN" button and get your purple lootz!   But Im sure you would find something else to cry about. 

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by Broomy

Originally posted by Cephus404

There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge.  That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace.  Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off.  That's the reality whether you like it or not.

There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people.  Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box.  Times change.  Maybe it's time you did too.

 

I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players.  I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids.  If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it.  The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding. 

 

Who gives a crap about them, they are the minoirty that have dominated the market for far too long.  You are outnumbered and who exactly do you think companies should be trying to keep?

Effort invested into a game is relative to the player,  Your arbitrary standard is the exact reason why mainstream looks down on this industry as a bunch of freakish nerds with no life.

It's time to move away from the hardcore, second job style MMOs and venture into main stream entertainment.  You may not like it, but there are a LOT more people who would.

Go play your fail game man, who cares?  There are plenty of solo friendly games out there, go knock yourself out.  And I am sure they will be developing games for people like you, still butthurt from the high school play yard.   In fact I heartily endorse them making a solo friendly carebear fail game so that you people can find somewhere to hang your hats and hopefully stop your crying :)    Mainstream of entertainment?  I thought that was done with WOW?  you want it to be easier than that?  lmao~!

Originally posted by Broomy

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by Broomy

Originally posted by Cephus404

There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge.  That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace.  Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off.  That's the reality whether you like it or not.

There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people.  Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box.  Times change.  Maybe it's time you did too.

 

I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players.  I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids.  If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it.  The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding. 

 

Who gives a crap about them, they are the minoirty that have dominated the market for far too long.  You are outnumbered and who exactly do you think companies should be trying to keep?

Effort invested into a game is relative to the player,  Your arbitrary standard is the exact reason why mainstream looks down on this industry as a bunch of freakish nerds with no life.

It's time to move away from the hardcore, second job style MMOs and venture into main stream entertainment.  You may not like it, but there are a LOT more people who would.

 

Go play your fail game man, who cares?  There are plenty of solo friendly games out there, go knock yourself out.  And I am sure they will be developing games for people like you, still butthurt from the high school play yard.   In fact I heartily endorse them making a solo friendly carebear fail game so that you people can find somewhere to hang your hats and hopefully stop your crying :)    Mainstream of entertainment?  I thought that was done with WOW?  you want it to be easier than that?  lmao~!

another person with the"grouper" blinders on.  Who said solo'rs want easy content. I for one enjoy the challenge of doing the quests solo, keep them hard to solo - I love it.  Grouping is for those who CAN'T solo, they want an easy way to do the game. Solo'rs, or those I know anyways, prefer the harder path.

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Originally posted by Broomy

Oh yes they are.  Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own.  Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self.  And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group.  Tabula Rasa was like that.  It's now defunct.

 

False as proven by CoH/CoV.  A game that is solo-able, didn't even have gear, and yet most people grouped. 

Which is why I play CoH/CoV for 5 years and I didn't play WoW.  

 

 Good for you. 

I know several people that played COX, they said its fun for a bit then they left.  Maybe thats the answer, make a bunch of solable COX like games for soloers where you can log in, solo a bit and get the best gear and be happy. 

Originally posted by elderotter

another person with the"grouper" blinders on.  Who said solo'rs want easy content. I for one enjoy the challenge of doing the quests solo, keep them hard to solo - I love it.  Grouping is for those who CAN'T solo, they want an easy way to do the game. Solo'rs, or those I know anyways, prefer the harder path.

Not at all, I solo alot and love accomplishing stuff on my own .  I just dont need to have the best gear as a raider because I could give a frakk if they are leetist or act "superior" and obviously you people DO!  LOOT ENVY, in a nutshell. 

BTW the hands down worst players to ever invite into a group effort are the soloists.  They have zero comprehension of group dynamics and only look after themselves.  Lets hope they make a space where you can all convene and stop ruining gameplay for others:) 

 

 Good for you. 

I know several people that played COX, they said its fun for a bit then they left.  Maybe thats the answer, make a bunch of solable COX like games for soloers where you can log in, solo a bit and get the best gear and be happy. 

You missed the point.  COX managed to be fun for soloers and fun for groupers.  You don't have to group, nor do you have to solo.  You group if you want to, because you find it fun, not because you must.  It doesn't have to be solo game or group game, its not either or.

People don't need fancy items to group, they just need it to be fun.