Originally posted by Meleagar

EVERYTHING should be available to offline advancement, even making money. This puts EVERYONE on a more level playing field (especially if you give later subscribers a catch-up advancement bonus until they catch up).  This removes the advantage of guilds that group level individual characters 24/7, it removes the capacity of bots to exploit the inability of most players to invest more than a few hours a week, selling them things for real cash they don't want to spend their in-game time doing over .. and over .. and over.

This is the part I do not understand.  So are you trying to setup a system where at any given time every character has the same level, gear and amount of currency? 

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Originally posted by Torik

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Originally posted by Meleagar
EVERYTHING should be available to offline advancement, even making money. This puts EVERYONE on a more level playing field (especially if you give later subscribers a catch-up advancement bonus until they catch up).  This removes the advantage of guilds that group level individual characters 24/7, it removes the capacity of bots to exploit the inability of most players to invest more than a few hours a week, selling them things for real cash they don't want to spend their in-game time doing over .. and over .. and over.

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This is the part I do not understand.  So are you trying to setup a system where at any given time every character has the same level, gear and amount of currency? 

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Need to throw away the whole Class/Level advancement model entirely.

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Originally posted by Vrazule
The problem is that MMOs are designed from the bottom up to be a business model first, entertainment second.  Every mechanic is implemented to slow down your progression in order to keep you subscribing.  They gloss over this model with the carrot on the stick paradigm.  They are more interested in making their games addicting than they are making them actually fun.  There is so much potential for this genre, but it's being completely wasted.  It's completely stagnant and has been for the last 10 years.  Each newer game gets a new coat of paint, but the underlying paradigms remain the same.  It's no wonder people are getting burned out.  I bet most people stick with it due to addiction more than anything else.
I'm still waiting for an MMO that feels like a game and not a job.

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Agree. It's all about the money, and keeping the subscriptions flowing (now more and more about the "micro-transactions" flowing). A smart and creative company NOT dominated by the accountants would create a "World" (sandbox) that people would want to lose themselves in (spending time/money). In this way people would play, enjoy themselves, and the company would make it's money.

Originally posted by Meleagar

Finding it difficult to stay interested in any current MMOG?  Do your eyes start bleeding when you are asked to go out and kill a dozen rabbits?  Is running around looking for quest NPCs about as interesting as watching paint dry? After the novelty of MMOGs has worn off, do you start realizing that it's all the same shinola, only dressed up differently?  If a game offers you really pretty dolls and scenery to do the same thing you've already done 1000 times, how long can you stay interested?

Do you blame yourself for outgrowing the genre? Do you think you're just experiencing gamer's burnout?  Nah. It's just that after your initial fascination, you realize that you're going to be spending all your time doing something you've already done, and guess what? You have to do it all again, in the same sequence. The same lame quests, the same exp grind, new sword, new spell, pretty new graphics. You might as well be ordering a burger at a different restarurant every day; a burger is a burger. It's all you're going to get, no matter how it is packaged or what it comes with.

MMOGs are boring, frankly, because you have to do 95% the same thing as any other MMOG you've ever played in order to develop your character. Yes, developing a character over time is fun; choosing customized pathways down all kinds of skill and ability trees is great fun; customizing the look of your character is great fun; grinding through lame enemies and running through mind-numbing collection and kill quests ... is boring to anyone familiar with the genre.

I got Chronicles of the Spellborne for free, downloaded, created a few characters (love the customization potential) then played a character to level 5 and couldn't force myself to play anymore, even if they paid me to play.  After 3 years of WoW I've already done all that, in essence. It's all basically the same.  Why should I bother playing a game that forces me to do the same thing I've already done for 3 years, and before that in EQII and EQ?

Seeing trailers for new MMOGs is like watching soft drink commercials; you think, wow, drinking that soft drink is going to make me sexy and make my life so fun and interesting - it's going to be like an instant party!  Then you drink the soft drink and realize ... it's just a friggin' soft drink, and that's all it is. It's like any other soft drink you've ever had.

Here's what people like to do in games (well, some of us, anyway - the ones that are bored to death with the current formula): customize our characters, strategicially develop them over time, and not be limited in how we explore or play the game.  We also do not want to be forced to grind or spend hours and hours in the game doing the same ^%&*&(&*% thing we've done for too many hours in the past in other games. Heres my short list of true innovations to create some revolutionary games:

1) STOP THE END-GAME MADNESS - having a specific "end game" coerces all the game content into serving that end game, and being coded and built around it. Everything becomes about whether or not something is good or efficient in the end-game scenario. Make the game more lateral than linear; provide customization and development options, not a funnel everyone is herded down. Have soloer, group, and raid content; have combat and crafting content; have social achievement content - in other words, expand content laterally, not just linearally.

2) DO AWAY WITH CLASSES - Champions online is doing a great job at allowing the player to fully customize their character with a full costume and power set they design.  Give players a number of customization points and let them pick and choose their initial power/ability set as they wish; let them create their own costumes and clothes and design their own weapons; if someone wants to be a cleric with a side of martial arts mastery, let 'em.  Yes, there might be some very powerful combinations ... so what?  Balance is only necessary if there is an end game rope around the necks of the devleopers, and we've already done away with it.

3) OFFLINE ADVANCEMENT - for the love of god, don't make us do this same &(*(()_***+#!^% over and over and over ... we've seen that movie many times. Let us set our character to study while we are offline in any one of several avenues of advancement we wish, changing the nature of the game from a massive time/grind sink to a more of a character development strategy game. Have dozens of trees of advancment one can pursue, and make it so you can organize your character's time (while you're offline) to pursue them - the catch, of course, is that your character can only pursue one line of advancement at a time. You can set your character to pursue some particular combat expertise for 10 hrs, then pursue a crafting expertise for 4 hrs, and then log in and assign points and explore your new abilities and find new (meaningful) quests. And yes, make faction and WORKING (i.e., collecing in-game money) something you can set your character to do while offline.

While doing the same thing over and over is boring; creating new characters and developing their customized talent combinations and growth over time is fun ... if one didn't have to commit to all the mind-numbing repetitive exp quests and key-bashing hours of killing the same monsters over and over.  That might be kind of fun the first time we play an MMOG: we're over it now. It's boring.  Get rid of it.

4) NO THROW-AWAY QUESTS -  Do your eyes gloss over when you get a quest? Do you even bother reading the quest? Do you just rush through it because it's the fastest way to level and get past all the boring shinola you have to do to get to do the interesting stuff, like exploring your talent/ability trees and gaining new abilities?  How about this: make quests mean something. If we get to DESiGN our own weapons and armor, how about having the quests - even the very first quests at level 1 or so - about adding stats to your character, to your weapon, to y our armor, to your spells?  If for the life of your character each quest you perform accumulatively adds stats to your character, your spells, your abilities, your armors, or adds options when it comes to adding to the visuals of your character or items, or adds to your reputations in an accumulative way, does that suddenly make quests more  meaningful and enjoyable?  How about quests that just make your avatar bigger in the game, or smaller? Make you glow, or give you sound effects not accessible unless you do the quest?  Quests that make you run faster, or hold your breath under water longer?  Permanent effects, not just some exp and some loot you won't use but for another couple of levels. What if you really had to read and pay attention to each quest because each quest was going to offer a permanent enhancement or customized change to your character, and do so accumulatively over the life of your character?

And what if in one quest, you get to choose which permanent reward you want?  Each time you do that quest (with alts), you can choose a different customization path, but you only get to do that quest once, and pick one particular reward.

Imagine the variation and customization, the replayability, the ability to have your character advancing 24/7 (as fast as anyone else could advance), and the depth! 

Get 'r done.

 

 

Are you pushing Alagnon again?

Great post, Mele. I would like to see this happen as well. Many good ideas. Would be interesting to see if the current communities could handle this kind of gameplay without turning it into some giant gear treadmill.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Meleagar

EVERYTHING should be available to offline advancement, even making money. This puts EVERYONE on a more level playing field (especially if you give later subscribers a catch-up advancement bonus until they catch up).  This removes the advantage of guilds that group level individual characters 24/7, it removes the capacity of bots to exploit the inability of most players to invest more than a few hours a week, selling them things for real cash they don't want to spend their in-game time doing over .. and over .. and over.

This is the part I do not understand.  So are you trying to setup a system where at any given time every character has the same level, gear and amount of currency? 

Absolutely not. You can set your character to do **one thing** while you are offline, or to do a sequence of things, but not two things at once.  For instance, to train in physical attributes raising health, or wisdom, or agility, or strength, or to train in a certain form of a certain kind of crafting or other profession; or to work to raise cash (in a kind of reputation/character/diplomacy line of study/training), or to train or study in any other particular linear or lateral line of advancement.

The game is based on 24/7 character involvement, but you get to decide what paths, avenues, abiilties, professions, crafting, etc. the character is doing all the time. Different player will have different goals and different strategies.  For instance, you might need a certain amount of strentht, money, and crafting expertise to create certain pieces of armor; a whole different set of attributes for making potions or learning how to make magical tattoos.  To explore and gather materials - yet another set of abilities must be raised. To buy some materials one requires gold.

Now, you can still adventure in the world - explore, etc., and still have your character set to be advancing down any path, and you can earn money by doing quests (which raises your "level" in the rep/char/diplomacy categories) or by killing mobs, but it won't be significantly greater than the amount of money one can earn if they keep advancing down the path of earning money.

Other chararcters will be training physical attributes and combat skills and talents.  There will be a system in place where learning a second combat/spell line will be slower.

There will still be many things one can only do while live and in-game (such as actually killing stuff, collecting materials, appointing all skill points collected, doing quests, crafting, etc.), but advancing their character will be a strategy, not something brute effort and hours at the screen accomplishes. "How much time you have to play" will not be a significant factor in how your character can progress in the game; the variation between characters will be based on strategy, ability to play their character and manage their abilities, and how cleverly they've advanced - not "how much time I can sit at the computer banging my keys".

Originally posted by Meleagar

There will still be many things one can only do while live and in-game (such as actually killing stuff, collecting materials, appointing all skill points collected, doing quests, crafting, etc.), but advancing their character will be a strategy, not something brute effort and hours at the screen accomplishes.

I'm going to try to point out where all this falls apart, so bear with me.

1) Your character advances whether you are online or not.  Which means that character advancement is not dependent on killing mobs or completing quests. 

2)  If you don't need to do either of those, why would you need any crafting materials or even loot?  Those items are to make running quests and killing mobs possible, or easier, or faster.

3) Of course you might also use loot and materials for some type of PvP, like sieging, but if that's the case you are back to grinding quests and kills for "levels" of power in PvP.  Whoever spends the most time online wins.

4) If you don't actually need loot or materials for anything that can be compared, then the game really has no objectives.  If it has no objectives, how is the "strategy" of character building going to be rated?  Whose strategy works the best?

What's strange is that I sort-of agree with you.  I don't think the treadmill is necessary at all for the purposes of a MMORPG.  They also weren't originally designed to be treadmills, metagamers made them that way.  Leveling mechanics, combat mechanics, treasure, special abilities, all of these things were merely tools for an entirely different game from the one you are trying to describe.  It was called roleplaying - the acting out of events using statistical measures and personal judgement to produce a story or meaningful event worthy of the effort.  Who had the best character and the most loot was not under scrutiny at all.

I can, however, understand your frustration.  The MMO metagame/treadmill is about comparisons of power and stature so that people who have invested a lot of time and agony (work, pure and simple) can feel somewhat superior to others who have not accomplished as much.  It's a pecking order, office politics, job ladder, rat race, whatever you want to call it.  You can't remove the lower tiers from standard gameplay or your upper tiers don't mean anything.

You can also bear witness to the nerd rage that can be involved for anyone who tries to skip rungs on the way up, as is evident in this thread.

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor
 

I'm going to try to point out where all this falls apart, so bear with me.

1) Your character advances whether you are online or not.  Which means that character advancement is not dependent on killing mobs or completing quests. 

2)  If you don't need to do either of those, why would you need any crafting materials or even loot?  Those items are to make running quests and killing mobs possible, or easier, or faster.

3) Of course you might also use loot and materials for some type of PvP, like sieging, but if that's the case you are back to grinding quests and kills for "levels" of power in PvP.  Whoever spends the most time online wins.

4) If you don't actually need loot or materials for anything that can be compared, then the game really has no objectives.  If it has no objectives, how is the "strategy" of character building going to be rated?  Whose strategy works the best?

What's strange is that I sort-of agree with you.  I don't think the treadmill is necessary at all for the purposes of a MMORPG.  They also weren't originally designed to be treadmills, metagamers made them that way.  Leveling mechanics, combat mechanics, treasure, special abilities, all of these things were merely tools for an entirely different game from the one you are trying to describe.  It was called roleplaying - the acting out of events using statistical measures and personal judgement to produce a story or meaningful event worthy of the effort.  Who had the best character and the most loot was not under scrutiny at all.

I can, however, understand your frustration.  The MMO metagame/treadmill is about comparisons of power and stature so that people who have invested a lot of time and agony (work, pure and simple) can feel somewhat superior to others who have not accomplished as much.  It's a pecking order, office politics, job ladder, rat race, whatever you want to call it.  You can't remove the lower tiers from standard gameplay or your upper tiers don't mean anything.

You can also bear witness to the nerd rage that can be involved for anyone who tries to skip rungs on the way up, as is evident in this thread.

 Look at #4; for you, and many like you, if there is no competitive comparison of quantifiable in-game "superiority", then, in your mind, the game has "no objective"; however, for hundreds of thousands of current MMOG subscribers who are doomed because of time constraints to be "scrubs", there is never going to be a comparative sense of "superiority"; why are they playing the games?

The reason to play this particular game is to strategically develop a unique character over time, who provides a unique contributatory/social role in the community, not necessarily a "superior" character for a single end-game goal. 

Originally posted by Meleagar

 Look at #4; for you, and many like you, if there is no competitive comparison of quantifiable in-game "superiority", then, in your mind, the game has "no objective"; however, for hundreds of thousands of current MMOG subscribers who are doomed because of time constraints to be "scrubs", there is never going to be a comparative sense of "superiority"; why are they playing the games?

The reason to play this particular game is to strategically develop a unique character over time, who provides a unique contributatory/social role in the community, not necessarily a "superior" character for a single end-game goal. 

You are now going to hide under the protection of roleplaying, basically just as I had described it to you?

People can see through this reply pretty easily.

I'm not "hiding" under the protection of anything. I imagine that people with one mindset will "believe" whatever their mindset requires they believe of my "motivations" for desiring such a game, and view it negatively or positively according to their own desire. I don't have the time to compete in a time-based game; that doesn't mean time-based games are "bad", it just means such games appeal to me less. A game like I describe would appeal to me because it takes the "time" factor out of it, and makes it more of a character-development strategy game.

Many of you, however, seem threatened or outraged at someone even suggesting the idea, which - it seems to me - is inappropriate.

Again, the point isn't to eliminate MMOGS that operate as they are now, but to advocate for the creation of some MMOGs that are outside the current powergamer raider endgame model, so that casuals/soloers will have a game that is more attractive when it comes to paying for a subscription. It's pretty hard to justify paying a subscription to a game when I **know** I'll never experience any of the top-end content or rewards because of my preferred playstyle in an MMOG; a game like I'm describing would be much, much more attractive to me - and, I'm assuming, a lot of people like me that will play solo or casual in current MMOGs even though I find the model itself basically frustrating. I prefer MMOGs and being in a social atmosphere even to the point I'll put up with discriminatory design and being a 2nd class character; just imagine how fast I'd run to a game where I can be in an MMOG and nothave my playstyle and time descriminated against by the code.

It's all about the market; I think there's a market out there for people who are casuals or soloers and who want to be able to progress as fast as anyone else. Do you really think there is **no** market for such a game? Let's get real.
 

Originally posted by Meleagar

It's all about the market; I think there's a market out there for people who are casuals or soloers and who want to be able to progress as fast as anyone else. Do you really think there is **no** market for such a game? Let's get real.
 

Maybe we are just on different wavelengths, but if so, it's yours that needs some fine-tuning.  Take the quote above, "be able to progress as fast as anyone else," what does that mean?  It means you are comparing yourself to others, and you are not, in fact, asking for a game that is free from treadmill objectives and RPG metagame interests.  This is simply self-delusion.  You can't make a character-building game where time or effort is not a factor because no one would care about it, it would have no interest.

If, however, you are actually talking about roleplaying (taking a part in a social structure to play out adventures and interesting storylines), then welcome to the club.  MMORPGs were designed for precisely this purpose, and it wasn't a change in game structure that made things different.  It was changes in the playerbase.

If what you want is a game separated from powergamers, we are in the same boat, but I think there are better ways to split the MMO industry in half than what you are describing.

Originally posted by Meleagar

Here's what people like to do in games (well, some of us, anyway - the ones that are bored to death with the current formula): customize our characters, strategicially develop them over time, and not be limited in how we explore or play the game.  We also do not want to be forced to grind or spend hours and hours in the game doing the same ^%&*&(&*% thing we've done for too many hours in the past in other games. Heres my short list of true innovations to create some revolutionary games:

1) STOP THE END-GAME MADNESS - having a specific "end game" coerces all the game content into serving that end game, and being coded and built around it. Everything becomes about whether or not something is good or efficient in the end-game scenario. Make the game more lateral than linear; provide customization and development options, not a funnel everyone is herded down. Have soloer, group, and raid content; have combat and crafting content; have social achievement content - in other words, expand content laterally, not just linearally.

2) DO AWAY WITH CLASSES - Champions online is doing a great job at allowing the player to fully customize their character with a full costume and power set they design.  Give players a number of customization points and let them pick and choose their initial power/ability set as they wish; let them create their own costumes and clothes and design their own weapons; if someone wants to be a cleric with a side of martial arts mastery, let 'em.  Yes, there might be some very powerful combinations ... so what?  Balance is only necessary if there is an end game rope around the necks of the devleopers, and we've already done away with it.

3) OFFLINE ADVANCEMENT - for the love of god, don't make us do this same &(*(()_***+#!^% over and over and over ... we've seen that movie many times. Let us set our character to study while we are offline in any one of several avenues of advancement we wish, changing the nature of the game from a massive time/grind sink to a more of a character development strategy game. Have dozens of trees of advancment one can pursue, and make it so you can organize your character's time (while you're offline) to pursue them - the catch, of course, is that your character can only pursue one line of advancement at a time. You can set your character to pursue some particular combat expertise for 10 hrs, then pursue a crafting expertise for 4 hrs, and then log in and assign points and explore your new abilities and find new (meaningful) quests. And yes, make faction and WORKING (i.e., collecing in-game money) something you can set your character to do while offline.

While doing the same thing over and over is boring; creating new characters and developing their customized talent combinations and growth over time is fun ... if one didn't have to commit to all the mind-numbing repetitive exp quests and key-bashing hours of killing the same monsters over and over.  That might be kind of fun the first time we play an MMOG: we're over it now. It's boring.  Get rid of it.

4) NO THROW-AWAY QUESTS -  Do your eyes gloss over when you get a quest? Do you even bother reading the quest? Do you just rush through it because it's the fastest way to level and get past all the boring shinola you have to do to get to do the interesting stuff, like exploring your talent/ability trees and gaining new abilities?  How about this: make quests mean something. If we get to DESiGN our own weapons and armor, how about having the quests - even the very first quests at level 1 or so - about adding stats to your character, to your weapon, to y our armor, to your spells?  If for the life of your character each quest you perform accumulatively adds stats to your character, your spells, your abilities, your armors, or adds options when it comes to adding to the visuals of your character or items, or adds to your reputations in an accumulative way, does that suddenly make quests more  meaningful and enjoyable?  How about quests that just make your avatar bigger in the game, or smaller? Make you glow, or give you sound effects not accessible unless you do the quest?  Quests that make you run faster, or hold your breath under water longer?  Permanent effects, not just some exp and some loot you won't use but for another couple of levels. What if you really had to read and pay attention to each quest because each quest was going to offer a permanent enhancement or customized change to your character, and do so accumulatively over the life of your character?

And what if in one quest, you get to choose which permanent reward you want?  Each time you do that quest (with alts), you can choose a different customization path, but you only get to do that quest once, and pick one particular reward.

Imagine the variation and customization, the replayability, the ability to have your character advancing 24/7 (as fast as anyone else could advance), and the depth! 

Get 'r done. 

Looks like EVE Online with meaningful missions in place of the obscenely repetitive agent mission system. I approve.

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor
 

Maybe we are just on different wavelengths, but if so, it's yours that needs some fine-tuning.  Take the quote above, "be able to progress as fast as anyone else," what does that mean?  It means you are comparing yourself to others, and you are not, in fact, asking for a game that is free from treadmill objectives and RPG metagame interests.  This is simply self-delusion.  You can't make a character-building game where time or effort is not a factor because no one would care about it, it would have no interest.

If, however, you are actually talking about roleplaying (taking a part in a social structure to play out adventures and interesting storylines), then welcome to the club.  MMORPGs were designed for precisely this purpose, and it wasn't a change in game structure that made things different.  It was changes in the playerbase.

If what you want is a game separated from powergamers, we are in the same boat, but I think there are better ways to split the MMO industry in half than what you are describing.

Your opinion that no one would be interested in it is only reflective of your particular bias; I would be very interested in it. I hardly think I'm unique. I've been contacted by many people, and have interacted with many people, that would also be very interested in such a game.

You are free to advocate for the game you wish to see marketed.

Originally posted by Meleagar

Your opinion that no one would be interested in it is only reflective of your particular bias; I would be very interested in it. I hardly think I'm unique. I've been contacted by many people, and have interacted with many people, that would also be very interested in such a game.

You are free to advocate for the game you wish to see marketed.

You would be?  I kind of doubt that.  To find out, let's start playing now, it's fairly simple.  I'll post my character:

Level 72 Half-Elf Ranger  Raithe'Nor

Strength 14, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 14, Dexterity 18, Constitution 12, Charisma 10

Skills:  Tracking 15, Hunting 16, Fishing 15, Stealth 17, Swimming 8, Running 10, Magic Lore 1

Attack bonuses:  Bow +18, Elven Longsword +18, Dagger +16, Short Sword +15

Damage bonuses:  Bow +18, Elven Longsword +10, Dagger +8, Short Sword +8

Languages:  Elven, Common

If you post your character now we can compare to see who has the better character.  If you are wondering, I simply chose to make leveling to 72 occur really quickly in our little offline game.

Originally posted by Saerain

Looks like EVE Online with meaningful missions in place of the obscenely repetitive agent mission system. I approve.

I get the feeling that this thread is going to boil down to a "we need more interesting quests for grinding" thing.

In which case, I'll take my leave...

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

Originally posted by Meleagar

Your opinion that no one would be interested in it is only reflective of your particular bias; I would be very interested in it. I hardly think I'm unique. I've been contacted by many people, and have interacted with many people, that would also be very interested in such a game.

You are free to advocate for the game you wish to see marketed.

 

You would be?  I kind of doubt that.  To find out, let's start playing now, it's fairly simple.  I'll post my character:

 

Level 72 Half-Elf Ranger  Raithe'Nor

Strength 14, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 14, Dexterity 18, Constitution 12, Charisma 10

Skills:  Tracking 15, Hunting 16, Fishing 15, Stealth 17, Swimming 8, Running 10, Magic Lore 1

Attack bonuses:  Bow +18, Elven Longsword +18, Dagger +16, Short Sword +15

Damage bonuses:  Bow +18, Elven Longsword +10, Dagger +8, Short Sword +8

Languages:  Elven, Common

 

If you post your character now we can compare to see who has the better character.  If you are wondering, I simply chose to make leveling to 72 occur really quickly in our little offline game.P

You're arguing against an imaginary position, because I have no idea what you're talking about here.

Whoooo... Where to start?

well I guess by mentioning that EvE online does offline advancement I can help you to clarify how effective it is - and if you'd like a neat summary of how well this works for the game please click Here.

But other than that, i completely agree, MMOs do get stupidly repetetive: go here kill this X 10^9

The solution in my opinion is a game where the interface and style alone allows grinding and even moving to be fun, and for the potential to enhance your character aestheticaly as well as numericaly -(aesthetics seem to be a better motivation somehow - no i dont know why, but srsly check out WoW)- to be very high at a very low level.

In all honesty i picked this thread essentialy to just say, yes I agree, This is the best idea I can come up with to solve the exact dilemma you're facing. The fact that the article exists shows how bored I am with MMOs atm.

First of all, we should all look at what an MMORPG is SUPPOSED to be. The MMO part is present in all of these games but the RPG part is mostly lacking. RPG = Role Playing Game, originating from a pen, paper and dice game (namely Dungeons and Dragons; the grandfather) in which the players would actually "pretend" to be their avatar; i.e. actually playing the role of the avatar. Acting the part; if you will.

At some point; video game designers thought it would be a good idea to create a video game based on the concept; a great idea, but poorly executed. Not to say that these games are not fun in there own right but, rather, they are not what they were meant to be. Most gamers are not into roleplaying. They're video gamers, through and through. True Rper's, such as myself, who've played the likes of traditional RPG's have always longed for a "true" MMORPG. An interactive experience in a vast, dynamic world where we all "play the part", banding together to fight the good fight in truly "epic" quests that have wordly consequences.

I agree with you that this genre is becoming quite stale. They are all essentially the same game in a different skin. There is little innovation (though we have seen some) in MMORPG's. The developers seem to stick to a "safe" formula which will attract the average gamer. Afterall, it's a business and business is, primarily, about making money. This is not to say that developers have no passion for creation though, I'm sure, most creative decisions are made with a business factor in mind.

For me, personally, the majority of these games have the "Point A" to "Point B" rat-race architecture, with regards to quests. They are very "one dimesional" and cookie-cutter. I almost cringe when grouped and someone asks 'Has everyone completed "Xxx of the XXX quest?" and some one answers "yep I got my Sword of XXX." The same quest and reward for all. Unfortunately, this type of structure is the nature of the beast.

I do like classes, so I must disagree with your opinion on the matter, however, I would like to see a point system where players spend these points to choose from a huge list of skills, feats, etc. Much like pnp D&D. Its very sad to join up with a 27th level wizard with whom I've never met before and know exactly what abilities he has because all 27th wizards are exactly the same.

I think overall, what the OP is saying is that MMORPG's are lacking immersion and depth.

Customize - I think more customization is something that should be implemented into future MMORPG's. Customizable clothing (even saddles for the mounts), fully customizable housing (perhaps the ability to design and build it yourself from the ground up), an actual shop to run a business with the ability to hire employees (NPCs or otherwise). Even further; the ability to create your own "house above your store". Previous games have had similar features but with limitation.

Innovative professions - Why are we always stuck with the same professions (weaponsmith, jeweller,etc). What about a horse breeder where you actually raise and sell them to other players? A tavern owner with your name on the sign? A musician (something LOTRO did rather well, but could be expanded upon)? Maybe you can build or buy your own wagon and start a travelling caravan with others, selling your wares all over the lands.

Better quests and encounters- What about scripted random encounters or events? It sounds contrdictiary; though it's not. Example: Travelling through a valley; sometimes a random mob of bandits are there and sometimes not but when they are, the leader approaches the group or solo player and starts a conversation providing the player(s) with options, pay up or the bandits attack. Alternitavely, perhaps a quest can come out of it . Random attacks on towns, perhaps smaller ones, not the larger fortified ones. You could be in a town square talking with friends and then, BAM!, raiders attack the town. Townsfolk and players alike must fight them off. You can fight or run away; your choice.

Sadly, most of these ideas will never find there way into this genre. Mostly, they've all been reduced to statistics and "finding the better build" rather than just creating an awesome and truly unique avatar to enjoy the ride in an incredibly large and  immersive world with much more to do than just "kill 10 of those and return to me" and "click and craft the clone sword".

Aside from that, I still do enjoy the large exploracious regions and the social aspect of MMORPG's. So I endure, take what I can get and hope that some day, the ultimate and 'true" MMORPG will be born.

In the end, I feel your pain.

Originally posted by Meleagar

1) STOP THE END-GAME MADNESS

2) DO AWAY WITH CLASSES

3) OFFLINE ADVANCEMENT

4) NO THROW-AWAY QUESTS  

I agree with all of this.  I think a lot of MMORPG design is still a holdover from the days of early CRPG's.   Don't get me wrong, Wow is a great game.  I played it for two months when it came out and a month when the first expansion came out.  But I can't for the life of me see the long-term fascination.

People may think I'm crazy for saying this, but I believe that WoW is where EQ was five years ago.  It seems invincible, but it's really a gigantic house of cards.  Wether they realize it or not, a vast majority of the playerbase are DYING for the next new thing to come along.  Only a tiny minority genuinely like the concept of the "endgame", but it's like a cult that people just get sucked into because the game that they started out wanting to play just led them to a dead end where they had nothing else to do.

1) STOP THE END-GAME MADNESS

In single-player games it makes sense to level the characters rapidly, to funnel them through the storyline that the designer wants to tell.   In an MMORPG, there's no reason for that at all.  An MMORPG shouldn't be an animated version of the old  "Choose Your Own Adventure" books with a beginning, a middle and an end.   An MMORPG should be a journey, not a destination.

I'd be pretty happy if the games were a lot less tall and a lot more broad.  Personally, my favorite part is the beginning, when you start out with practically nothing and each new piece of equipment or coin is a milestone.  But most games nowadays blast you through the first 10 levels in freakin' MINUTES!  Where's the fun in that?  I've doubled, tripled and quadrupled the power of my character before I could even blink, let alone fully appreciate the added abilities I didn't have before.

2) DO AWAY WITH CLASSES

I tend to start characters in MMORPG's and play them to their 20's or 30's and then feel the burning need to switch.  Somebody needs to come up with a mechanic that could allow each player to only have ONE character, but instead of having him develop along a set and immutable path, let him gain FLEXIBILITY over time, rather than just power.  So each player in a group can switch between different roles as the need arose.

Matrix Online was a horrifically miscoded game, but the concept of "reprogramming" is one that could have been promising.  Obviously that IP is taken, but in a fantasy genre there's really no reason you couldn't put a mechanic like that into any MMORPG universe.  Call it "crystals" you can swap out, different hats you wear; could be anything really, who cares.  Just let me gain a wide variety of different skills so I can creatively overcome obstacles, not just rapidly accumulate power so I can fight ever tougher rats! 

3) OFFLINE ADVANCEMENT

I would re-word this a bit.  I don't see a need to leave your poor 'toon slaving away ala SWG.  But it would make sense from both a gameplay and a business model point of view to make sure the rate of advancement is soft-capped as a function of the account's longevity.

Any MMORPG where you can start a new character and get to the highest level in ten days is, frankly, FUBAR.  Anybody who does that is either exploiting or out-and-out cheating.  Of course I understand there are some people who want to do nothing but "win" a race, even when they're on the freeway.  But there's a difference between trying to beat a game and trying to break a game.  Just make it so that the people who share an account, play 24/7, go to cheat sites or otherwise "powerlevel" each other can stay a few levels ahead of the pack.

But don't let a handful of monomaniacal freaks blast through all your content and then start screaming "MORE, MORE, MORE!!"  In the first place, they didn't pay one penny more than the players who have jobs.  But even more importantly, if you design content targeted at those sociopaths, you will eventually alienate all the normal people.  And (while you might not realize it if all you do is hang out at forums like this) that's actually a significant chunk of the potential market.

4) NO THROW-AWAY QUESTS

Again, I would reword this.  I think there should be a huge distinction made between "tasks" (short-term, storytelling interludes) and "quests" (long-term raisons de etre.)  I think there is room for both of these in an MMORPG.  But, yes, just focusing on the Fed-X jobs, etc., inevitably gets old.  Using WoW as the example, I don't see why they couldn't take the 2,000 (or maybe more by now) quests and fit them under long-term arcs.  For example, maybe a character could go to work for the Venture Mining Company, OR join the military, OR join a guild, etc.  That way, instead of having a "fantasy Rolodex" full of quests you're constantly shuffling and deleting, you'd have an over-arching structure to all of those otherwise nitnoid little tasks.

But, yeah, even for the individual tasks, I wish they were either longer or better yet open-ended.  If you find out you hate killing ettins in Mistmore, then you should be able to stop after the minimum 10, get your silver-plated saber and move on.  But hey, if you find out you like doing that one, why not let you keep doing it as long as you want and keep upping the ante on the reward the whole time?

Also, I'd add another item to the list:  5)  MAKE THE COMBAT MORE IMMERSIVE

That's kind of a big one for me.  It seems like WoW's infantile button-flashing minigame version of combat is being replicated to death these days.  And it's driving me batty!

WoW was the world's first easily-accessible MMORPG, and they had no real competition.   So it made perfect sense for them to design a gameplay mechanic that everyone six-to-sixty could easily master.  But anybody who tries to make a game now must realize they have an elephant in the living room they can't simply ignore.  All new games are going to have to SEGMENT the market.  Sure, make games for the kiddies and drug addicts, Lord knows they love clickin' them buttons. 

But more than half of all MMORPG players are adults with jobs -- and, hey, we're the ones who have our own credit cards!  So how's about showing us a little bit of respect for a change? 

Instead of designing combat that makes us "play the interface," make it so that the little cartoon guy does the actual fighting and the player just makes decisions.  I could go on and on outlining specific ideas for this but frankly I don't think any game designers could possibly care less.  They figure "Combat?  Oh, who cares?  Just slap together a few dozen new 'combo' butttons and let's get back to refining those cloud bitmaps."