Sandbox! No doubt!

Best sandbox game out there (at least pre-cu) is/was Star Wars Galaxies

Originally posted by someforumguy

Sandbox with themepark please. Im getting sick of this absolute chosing for one thing or the other in these stupid polls.

One doesnt have to exclude the other.

PreCU SWG with a lot of current NGE SWG content would have been a far more complete product. Its just stupid to limit your choices.

Besides, apart from the character development, current SWG offers far more diversity then preCU in the forms of crafting, playercities and space. With upcoming chronicles and droid engineer update it gets even better.

For me the ideal situation would be preCU professions combined with NGE new features and content. To bad that those limited thinking precu vets who confuse nostalgia for a game feature, wont see this.

Anyway, wont matter. I see very little chance for a new MMO with as many features and freedom as in SWG (all features old and new combined) or UO. Except some failed attempts from Indie developers, who dont make it because of impatient player hate and lack of funds.

Yes, sandbox and themepark combined is the best.

Originally posted by someforumguy

For me the ideal situation would be preCU professions combined with NGE new features and content. To bad that those limited thinking precu vets who confuse nostalgia for a game feature, wont see this.

 

You were on to something until you wrote that ...

I do not think many pre-cu vets would have been opposed to pre-cu-nge swg with more guided content added, just as most of the eve online players are not opposed to adding more and better missions.

However, we ( the pre-cu-nge vets ) prefer that the fundaments of the game are sandbox, with guided content added on top.

SWG as it is now means nothing, I haven't played for a long time, but I doubt the crafting is meaningfull, doctors buffing, medics healing, entertainers healing, etc, the interdependance and freedom is gone, that is the point we pre-cu-nge vets make.

Sandbox? More like litter box. Every game has limits and restrictions on what you can and cannot do and to simply say that because you have flexibility in one area you are playing a sandbox is silly.

First let me state that I have two active Eve Online accounts and while I am no longer as active as I used to be I do still play but to say that Eve is a sandbox is inaccurate. What it has is an open ruleset when it comes to player interaction but in other parts of the game especially the game play itself it is probably one of the most restrictive games out there.

For example, I would like to paint my ship purple...um no modifications or customization of your ship allowed. Can I interact with the NPCs in any meaninful way? um no. Can I colonize one of the planets? Um no. Can I get out and explore a planet? um no. Can I put a really big gun on a tiny ship? um no. Can I take bits of two different ships to make a new unique ship? um no.

Can I create a huge Ponzi scheme and steal lots of ISK from all of my fellow players and not fear any retribution? um yes.

Not really a sandbox guys. But that doesn't mean Eve can't be a lot of fun at times.

Now, I don't mean to pick on Eve but every game has some sort of restrictions or limits otherwise it simply wouldn't be practical to maintain. None of that means though that the games still can't be fun.

Originally posted by rwmiller

Sandbox? More like litter box. Every game has limits and restrictions on what you can and cannot do and to simply say that because you have flexibility in one area you are playing a sandbox is silly.

First let me state that I have two active Eve Online accounts and while I am no longer as active as I used to be I do still play but to say that Eve is a sandbox is inaccurate. What it has is an open ruleset when it comes to player interaction but in other parts of the game especially the game play itself it is probably one of the most restrictive games out there.

For example, I would like to paint my ship purple...um no modifications or customization of your ship allowed. Can I interact with the NPCs in any meaninful way? um no. Can I colonize one of the planets? Um no. Can I get out and explore a planet? um no. Can I put a really big gun on a tiny ship? um no. Can I take bits of two different ships to make a new unique ship? um no.

Can I create a huge Ponzi scheme and steal lots of ISK from all of my fellow players and not fear any retribution? um yes.

Not really a sandbox guys. But that doesn't mean Eve can't be a lot of fun at times.

Now, I don't mean to pick on Eve but every game has some sort of restrictions or limits otherwise it simply wouldn't be practical to maintain. None of that means though that the games still can't be fun.

Look, when we talk about sandbox mmorpg's we mean mmorpg's with certain freedoms : skill based, non instanced world, a variety of equally valid proffessions ( fighter, crafter, mage, trader, etc ), player owned structures, etc

Yes the only true sandbox out there is Second Life, but thats not a game to me anymore.

Of course there are restrictions and not everything is player made, but you are nitpicking on semantics here.

AC was a sandbox game in a truer since than EQ was at the time. As for me...hmmm...I'd like a sandbox first and foremost, with lots of toys in it for me to play with - if there were a couple of theme parks on the side...thats OK...just as long as I have complete freedom and the theme parks are not a requirement that must be participated in to get anywhere in the game - and it should be totally skill based - no levels and no classes!!!!
 

Originally posted by someforumguy

Sandbox with themepark please. Im getting sick of this absolute chosing for one thing or the other in these stupid polls.

One doesnt have to exclude the other.

PreCU SWG with a lot of current NGE SWG content would have been a far more complete product. Its just stupid to limit your choices.

Besides, apart from the character development, current SWG offers far more diversity then preCU in the forms of crafting, playercities and space. With upcoming chronicles and droid engineer update it gets even better.

For me the ideal situation would be preCU professions combined with NGE new features and content. To bad that those limited thinking precu vets who confuse nostalgia for a game feature, wont see this.

Anyway, wont matter. I see very little chance for a new MMO with as many features and freedom as in SWG (all features old and new combined) or UO. Except some failed attempts from Indie developers, who dont make it because of impatient player hate and lack of funds.

I am sorry but this does not make any sense to me. What excactly is a sandbox themepark game? That is like saying up-down and dry-wet.

Sandbox games cant by definition be themepark as they have mutually exclusive elements. Sandbox are free and non-linear when it comes to progression. Themepark games are linear and are basically on tracks so how is it possible to combine those two?

Sandbox with content is not the same as a themepark. Sandbox worlds are basically virtually worlds, where as themepark "worlds" are like amusement park with events.

As for the choice it is easily sandbox for me. Themeparks completely destroy all immersion for me in MMORPGs.

A hybrid is the way to go.  The deep setting with a hold your hand tutorial seen so often in theme parks getting players up to speed, but then all the freedom of a sandbox at the players fingertips with multiple storylines to take part in.  The problem with sandboxes and casual users or unexperienced users is getting dropped into the world and having no clue what to do.  If they start off with a very hold your hand themepark approach that gradually gets the player acclimated to the environment and game world and then opens up into a huge sandbox even the themepark diehards would probably realize how nice freedom is.

The first company to successfully make a AAA hybrid of the two styles will do extremely well I think.

Originally posted by Yamota

I am sorry but this does not make any sense to me. What excactly is a sandbox themepark game? That is like saying up-down and dry-wet.

Sandbox games cant by definition be themepark as they have mutually exclusive elements. Sandbox are free and non-linear when it comes to progression. Themepark games are linear and are basically on tracks so how is it possible to combine those two?

Sandbox with content is not the same as a themepark. Sandbox worlds are basically virtually worlds, where as themepark "worlds" are like amusement park with events.

As for the choice it is easily sandbox for me. Themeparks completely destroy all immersion for me in MMORPGs.

It's this kind of thinking though that results in so many games that are one extreme or the other.  You can take elements from both and blend them together to create something really great.  There are good elements in both types of games.  Why can't a sandbox have a themepark tutorial with optional storylines and epic quests while still having the itemization, crafting, player generated content, player driven economy, skill based system of a sandbox.

One good example of a hybrid/mix is having the skill based system of a typical sandbox, but allow users to declare that they are X class.  There could be 100 classes, and to be that class you have to have the required skills, and by selecting the class you get a bonus to one thing while a negative to another. 

An example would be Paladin:

Required 1 Hand Sword Skill: 50+

Required Shield Skill: 50+

Required Healing Magic: 30+

Required Heavy Armor: 30+

Bonuses:

10% bonus to healing, 15% bonus to defense, 5% bonus to blocking with shield

Negative Effects:

10% Reduction in Melee Damage, 5% Reduction in Offensive Spell Damage

Bonus Ability:

Lay On Hands~

You get my drift by now.  I actually think Mortal Online at one point was planning a system something like this.

You can make a hybrid theme park/sandbox game.

Take EVE for example, you can add content to planets that make it into a theme park game, the missions are somewhat of a theme park sense and basically a hybrid game can be sandbox and have instances that are like theme parks but have them be huge instances.

My only requirement in a game is the ability to be someone and to progress in a game without the need to horde:
xp and/or items.

If i ever get hooked to another MMO, i go straight economy as it is more fun and intellectual than just hack and slash. Having wealth rocks. I want a game where intellect actually matters. Too bad ebayers make it so peopel cna just buy currency without using their brains on how to earn it.

both together for me and its a huge source of disapointment that no devs have had a proper go at it. The economy, crafting, player housing and citys from swg were amazing and I'd like to see those sort of features alongside lots of content, achievements, quests, deep character progression.

Maybe crafting and housing from swg, citys, from swg and shadowbane, pvp from shadowbane, acheivements, mounts, quests, accessability from wow, aa system from eq2, graphics and sound from aoc, tomb of knowledge from war. I'd like to see minigames etc from games like free realms too, give us places to meet and have a quick 5 minute game of darts, or poker, or chess or racing whatever, things to fill the time and make it more like a world you live in.

Originally posted by Bureyku

Originally posted by Yamota

I am sorry but this does not make any sense to me. What excactly is a sandbox themepark game? That is like saying up-down and dry-wet.

Sandbox games cant by definition be themepark as they have mutually exclusive elements. Sandbox are free and non-linear when it comes to progression. Themepark games are linear and are basically on tracks so how is it possible to combine those two?

Sandbox with content is not the same as a themepark. Sandbox worlds are basically virtually worlds, where as themepark "worlds" are like amusement park with events.

As for the choice it is easily sandbox for me. Themeparks completely destroy all immersion for me in MMORPGs.

It's this kind of thinking though that results in so many games that are one extreme or the other.  You can take elements from both and blend them together to create something really great.  There are good elements in both types of games.  Why can't a sandbox have a themepark tutorial with optional storylines and epic quests while still having the itemization, crafting, player generated content, player driven economy, skill based system of a sandbox.

One good example of a hybrid/mix is having the skill based system of a typical sandbox, but allow users to declare that they are X class.  There could be 100 classes, and to be that class you have to have the required skills, and by selecting the class you get a bonus to one thing while a negative to another. 

An example would be Paladin:

Required 1 Hand Sword Skill: 50+

Required Shield Skill: 50+

Required Healing Magic: 30+

Required Heavy Armor: 30+

Bonuses:

10% bonus to healing, 15% bonus to defense, 5% bonus to blocking with shield

Negative Effects:

10% Reduction in Melee Damage, 5% Reduction in Offensive Spell Damage

Bonus Ability:

Lay On Hands~

You get my drift by now.  I actually think Mortal Online at one point was planning a system something like this.

Well I guess sandbox and themepark mean different things to you. For me 'themepark MMORPG' is where the progression is linear and does not give much option to decide the way you interact with the world but you rather engage in the "events" that the dev has created for you. Sandbox on the other hand allows you to interact with the world as you please, without following a pre-defined path, and still advance.

I dont think class or skill based has anything to do with this, nor quests. Asherons Call was a typical sandbox MMORPG but you specialised in skills, which in a way decided your class. However the progression of your character was completely free and you had a shot to take out any critter, regardless of your level, as long as you had the skills/equipment for it. Also it had quests as well.

Ryzom is probably the most sand-boxy kind of MMO i've ever played. 

No classes

Customized actions

Extremely complex crafting system

All good items are player crafted

All items irreversably degrade with use

No instances (except for player made scenarios)

Mob migration patterns

 list goes on and on

_z

EQ1 type themepark where you were boxed in a bit at the newbie levels but after that there was a lot of different places you could travel to and level off mobs including group and solo-able bits, big open dungeons and outdoor camps etc - lots of variety.

The downside of EQ1 (one of them anyway) is/was when you were a bit bored of mob grinding and fancied a change there were a ton of solo quests you could do but lots of them were broken completely and I'd say for most of the rest the time / risk/ reward was completely unbalanced. This led to mostly not bothering with the quests and *just* mob grinding which eventually gets dull.

So on top of mob-grinding, there'd be some questing and some crafting and I'd also like a Tome type system where aimless exploring and lore finding got you some exp as well - not a lot just some.

So in a level it might be 50% mob exp, 25% solo questing exp, 25% Tome exp and in terms of time spent it would be something like 25% mob grinding, 25% solo questing, 25% gathering and crafting, 25% exploring, traveling and faction grinding that helped in various ways. All in a world where there was 2-3 big open dungeons for your "tier", some instanced sub-dungeons at the bottom of the open ones plus lots of different camps and wandering mobs in various different zones you could travel to . Some of those zones might be set to be mostly your level, others might be lower level but with higher bits, others might be higher level with lower level bits - again variety.

So basically I'd like a horizontally varied style themepark rather than a linear vertical conveyor belt style themepark.