I was pondering what my least favorite part of the traditional level-based MMo is and one thing that came up was the boredom of lower levels.  You're grinding on rats and gnolls and your abilities are limited.  I was wondering if there could be a game where you start out being already powerful.  Not end-game powerful, but very powerful.  Have lots of abilities already but have much better ones in the future so you want to advance.  Already have decent gear, but get even better stuff later.  Basically, start near mid-game in most MMOs and go way beyond end-game with every increasing difficulty.  Just cut out the boring stuff in the beginning.

Obviously, I'm not suggesting this will be a huge game-changing feature, but just one thing that could change to make things slightly better.  Just an idea. 

 There's a game in beta right now where you do the whole tutorial 5 levels away from the cap......

Originally posted by MrTRiot

 There's a game in beta right now where you do the whole tutorial 5 levels away from the cap......

Well, I'm not talking about that really.  Essentially, you'd still have the same 1-80 levels like in WoW, but it's just that level 1 feels more like level 50-60 and level 80 would be like level 150 (if it existed).  Cut through the boring stuff at the beginning and get to the good stuff right away.  Does anyone really want to be killing wolves and rats for 10 levels?

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

I was pondering what my least favorite part of the traditional level-based MMo is and one thing that came up was the boredom of lower levels.  You're grinding on rats and gnolls and your abilities are limited.  I was wondering if there could be a game where you start out being already powerful.  Not end-game powerful, but very powerful.  Have lots of abilities already but have much better ones in the future so you want to advance.  Already have decent gear, but get even better stuff later.  Basically, start near mid-game in most MMOs and go way beyond end-game with every increasing difficulty.  Just cut out the boring stuff in the beginning.

 

Obviously, I'm not suggesting this will be a huge game-changing feature, but just one thing that could change to make things slightly better.  Just an idea. 

Well, to answer the subject question - of course there COULD be an MMO where you start off power. But the important question, of course, is would this be a good idea? In general, players in an MMO learn the ropes at lower levels, and also figure out what kind of direction they want to take their character down the road. If you remove the simple beginning and slow increase in choices and strategies and just throw players into a game where they start off with dozens of different abilities, which they have absolutely no idea how to use effectively, you're going to end up with a lot of frustrated players who quit within hours. The GOOD players will master things quickly, refuse to group with those who don't, etc. Not pretty.

But in the body of your post you suggest that games should "start near mid-game in most MMOs and go way beyond end-game with every increasing difficulty." But if you did this you'd have the same problem you have now, really. Someone like you would eventually post and say what you said here.

Basically I just see this suggestion making a game more complicated right from the start, which like I said, will just frustrate players who don't want a steep learning curve and won't actually change anything in the long run anyways.

Furthermore, you ARE suggesting this be a huge, game-changing feature. You're talking about the difference between a player starting a new game with, for example, 1 attack spell and 1 defensive spell (think a mage in WoW at level 1) vs. starting a game with dozens of spells (think of a level 40 mage and all the spells available to him). You don't think that is obviously a huge change?

I am not opposed to this idea, but it is really just the same deal.

All this will do is feed the people who like to see big numbers. Also I would think character progressiong would be less then they are curently. Lets face it you can only have so many skills on a character. If you let them start with a bunch of them, thats less they will get throughout the proccess of getting to end-game, and more likely you will get bored faster due to no chance in fighting patterns.

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Originally posted by MrTRiot

 There's a game in beta right now where you do the whole tutorial 5 levels away from the cap......

 

Well, I'm not talking about that really.  Essentially, you'd still have the same 1-80 levels like in WoW, but it's just that level 1 feels more like level 50-60 and level 80 would be like level 150 (if it existed).  Cut through the boring stuff at the beginning and get to the good stuff right away.  Does anyone really want to be killing wolves and rats for 10 levels?

I really think it depends on what you want from game. Questing (after crafting) is my second reason for playing and WoW have some nice quests even at low lvl and overall lvl doesnt matter when questing.

And I like that comparision of 1=50-60 and max = 150. You still would feel weak when you would see high lvl chars. So no point. Also if you would start with many skills it would be extremely hard and annoying for average/new players to get used to them.

If you are looking for only pvp just go to private servers with rates XXXX times and be max in minutes.

Also how long does it take in WoW and other games (not including chinese grinders) to reach lvl 40? It is just few days or so and you learn about game.

Your power is relative to your opponent. Are you asking for a game where you start off with more than just one or two skills? Skill based games do that. Axctually, I think it would be nice of more level-based MMOs did that as well. Other than that, though, it's all relative.

Take WOW, for example. Remove level 29 and below, and all of the level 29 and below content.  There is no difference between starting at 30 and starting at 1 other than the amount of extra skills you have. Your power vs your opponents is the same.

It's entirely possible that devs could create an MMO and a slick enough sales pitch to trick people into believing they are 'skipping newb content and getting to the meat of the game" by starting them off with 5 or 6 skills all at "Rank 3" and just adding an extra zero to everything. Instead of 40 HP and mana, you start with 400 hp and mana. Instead of 60 defense and 70 attack, you have 600 defense and 700 attack.

There's got to be thousands that will buy into it, but in mechanics and gameplay, it is no different from starting at level 1.

I think it would be better to simply make a game where every level is fun, challenging and complex. Then, everything could scale from there on out. The only real problem with this is information overload, which would be a huge deterrent for your average idiot.

Personally, I feel like the real issues here is the whole end-game mindset that the OP seems to have. He wants a big selection of powers right from the beginning. He wants to be slaying dragons and evil wizards, isntead of scuffling with goblins and sewer rats. Etc.

It's a real problem, as I see it. I mean, there's no denying that some MMOs are lacking at lower levels even if players don't have an end-game mindset. But why would MMO companies work extra on the lower levels of a game when most of the players are just interested in leveling up and hitting the endgame ASAP?

Originally posted by neosapience

I think it would be better to simply make a game where every level is fun, challenging and complex. Then, everything could scale from there on out. The only real problem with this is information overload, which would be a huge deterrent for your average idiot.

Heh I highly doubt it is possible to make every level fun. I guess it depends on the person though.

Originally posted by Nicksd

Originally posted by neosapience

I think it would be better to simply make a game where every level is fun, challenging and complex. Then, everything could scale from there on out. The only real problem with this is information overload, which would be a huge deterrent for your average idiot.

 

Heh I highly doubt it is possible to make every level fun. I guess it depends on the person though.

I think the one closest to that is AoC. Tortage is all awesome, quests and storyline done great and you just enjoy it and reach lvl 20.

Originally posted by neosapience

I think it would be better to simply make a game where every level is fun, challenging and complex. Then, everything could scale from there on out. The only real problem with this is information overload, which would be a huge deterrent for your average idiot.

Getting away from the whole "you have to be the absolute highest level possible in order to do any of the raid-style content" and the "you have to be the absolute highest level possible in order to wear any of the best gear" mindsets would help a lot.

Look at games like Eve, Shadowbane, even EverQuest. A player who has been playing for 3 weeks can be as effective in fleet combat as a 4-year player can be. In Shadowbane, power gained from levels decreased with each successive level, so when the level cap was soft-capped at 60 (63-ish was the max realistic level), a level 40 or 45 was still fairly dangerous to a level 60+ in PvP, and was still useful in PvE. And even in EverQuest, sub-level-capped characters could participate in raids, especially in the earlier expansions.

This meant that players didn't need QUITE as much of a focus on powerleveling to max so that they could finally start playing the "real game."

Eve really does it best of the games I can think of right now. Even a 10-day old player (who trains his skills wisely or with some advice from a seasoned player) can participate in PvP or mining or even missions, helping out players who have been playing since day 1... and contribute meaningfully.

Originally posted by Nicksd

Originally posted by neosapience

I think it would be better to simply make a game where every level is fun, challenging and complex. Then, everything could scale from there on out. The only real problem with this is information overload, which would be a huge deterrent for your average idiot.

 

Heh I highly doubt it is possible to make every level fun. I guess it depends on the person though.

This isn't quite right.

I'm willing to bet that the majority of players in WoW truly had fun in every single level on the first character they took from 1-max. Personally I had fun leveling up from 1-max with probably 5-6 different characters since the release of WoW. Not as much fun as the first time, of course... but it was still fun.

But yeah, at the very least, most players enjoy every level the first time through, and a fair number still have more fun than not going back through stuff much later with an alt or two.

Originally posted by fischsemmel

Originally posted by Nicksd

Originally posted by neosapience

I think it would be better to simply make a game where every level is fun, challenging and complex. Then, everything could scale from there on out. The only real problem with this is information overload, which would be a huge deterrent for your average idiot.

 

Heh I highly doubt it is possible to make every level fun. I guess it depends on the person though.

 

 

This isn't quite right.

 

I'm willing to bet that the majority of players in WoW truly had fun in every single level on the first character they took from 1-max. Personally I had fun leveling up from 1-max with probably 5-6 different characters since the release of WoW. Not as much fun as the first time, of course... but it was still fun.

But yeah, at the very least, most players enjoy every level the first time through, and a fair number still have more fun than not going back through stuff much later with an alt or two.

I will raise my hand and say I did not enjoy many of the levels on my first character I maxed in  WoW. But let's not turn this into a WoW thread.

asking lvl 1 feel like lvl 60, and lvl 80 like 150.. sigh , ill make a simple point here.. i can safely bet you dont even keybind your skills.. yet you ask to have 30-50 when you start, and 100-150 at the end.. not only thats impossible to balance, no beginner would be able to compete with someone whos playing for few years, and no it wouldnt be fun

i played few of those games.. some of them are just plain annoying and not fun at all, since first thing after you log you have 20 skills.. and its already pain in the ass.. its supposed to be fun

or its 20 skills.. where one does 40-50 dmg. another does 45-48.. and one is fire.. another is zap zap lighting.. same over same..

as to yours solliution.. wow dk .. starts lvl 55 , there is no lvl 150 for you sadly.. but there arent that many keys on kb to keybind every  spell anyway

guild wars too..

random shit mmos.. that never took off.. and i cant even remember name to tell for you.. thats how bad your idea is..

Originally posted by Nicksd

Originally posted by fischsemmel

Originally posted by Nicksd

Originally posted by neosapience

I think it would be better to simply make a game where every level is fun, challenging and complex. Then, everything could scale from there on out. The only real problem with this is information overload, which would be a huge deterrent for your average idiot.

 

Heh I highly doubt it is possible to make every level fun. I guess it depends on the person though.

 

 

This isn't quite right.

 

I'm willing to bet that the majority of players in WoW truly had fun in every single level on the first character they took from 1-max. Personally I had fun leveling up from 1-max with probably 5-6 different characters since the release of WoW. Not as much fun as the first time, of course... but it was still fun.

But yeah, at the very least, most players enjoy every level the first time through, and a fair number still have more fun than not going back through stuff much later with an alt or two.

 

I will raise my hand and say I did not enjoy many of the levels on my first character I maxed in  WoW. But let's not turn this into a WoW thread.

I just used it as an example because its the example I can bring up that most people can relate to.

But fine. Consider any of the good MMOs you've played. Didn't you have fun, at least more often than not, in every level the first time through? I think about the only MMOs I've played where I didn't enjoy every level the first time through were MMOs that I didn't stick with beyond a few days.

Originally posted by fischsemmel

I'm willing to bet that the majority of players in WoW truly had fun in every single level on the first character they took from 1-max. Personally I had fun leveling up from 1-max with probably 5-6 different characters since the release of WoW. Not as much fun as the first time, of course... but it was still fun.

I agree. WOW offers a great amount of diversity and fun from the very moment you start. Each starting area has a Kill X Mobs quest, a do something goofy quest, and a run around and find stuff quest. From the very beginning you are getting new armor, new skills, new weapons as loot drops and as quest rewards. Before you start to get tired of the scenery, a new zone with a completely different look is ready for you. There are constant plateaus to look forward to - crafting/gathering limits at 20 and 32, mounts at 40, major raid content in the early 50, etc.

Blizzard did a great job of creating a game where the content is consistently fun and engaging.

Perhaps it's not starting off with lots of skills and power that annoys me, maybe it's that every game has you start off killing rats and other fairly tame wildlife/monsters.  Maybe I'm just looking for a different type of MOB to kill at lower levels.  Hell, I have been playing MMOs since 2002ish (started with EQ right around Luclin's release) and am really sick of grinding away on yet another 50 rats to ding lvl 10. Or maybe I'm just burnt out.

I understand what the OP is saying, but if you start out "powerful" wouldn't you technically be weak in a sense that most people would be more powerful later in the game? In a sense, you would still be a level one, but with cooler skills, and there would still be level 50s or whatever with even better skills.

Originally posted by fischsemmel

I just used it as an example because its the example I can bring up that most people can relate to.

 

But fine. Consider any of the good MMOs you've played. Didn't you have fun, at least more often than not, in every level the first time through? I think about the only MMOs I've played where I didn't enjoy every level the first time through were MMOs that I didn't stick with beyond a few days.

First off O.P. I am sorry for high jacking your thread to answer this post :).

This is hard for me to really answer. I haven't found a recent game that I can feel like I am part of the world. To me it really doesn't have anything to do with how you progress, be it grinding, or tons of quests. I want to be able to get into the game. I am not talking about a RP p.o.v. really, as I don't RP. It is hard to explain so forgive my explination.

Let's go my first mmo (and of course my favorite) Asheron's Call. Since the server populations where not extremly large, it was easier to get to know people. I knew probably over half of the server I played on, and there was only a handful of people I did not get along with. As far as playing WoW. Waaaay to many elitist, and kids(I use this word with a wide range). The only people I really hung out with in WoW was mostly rl friends. Hell I wasn't in 1 guild where I didn't have guildies on my ignore list.

Having fun leveling to me has nothing to do with the skills you start with, how powerful you are. It is about the people around you. This is what I want to see again in mmo's, but with the style that are being made, I just don't see it happening.

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Perhaps it's not starting off with lots of skills and power that annoys me, maybe it's that every game has you start off killing rats and other fairly tame wildlife/monsters.  Maybe I'm just looking for a different type of MOB to kill at lower levels.  Hell, I have been playing MMOs since 2002ish (started with EQ right around Luclin's release) and am really sick of grinding away on yet another 50 rats to ding lvl 10. Or maybe I'm just burnt out.

That's one of the many things I like about Lineage 2. With the exception of the initial elpies (rabbit things), the mobs I was fighting during my first few levels were my size or larger and menacing. Armed skeletons, towering stone beasts, giant nasty looking spiders, etc. I didn't feel like I was going through the usual rat, spider, snake, wolf newbie routine.

maybe you should start asking for pew pew armor from the start right away,

oh i forgot.. ppl already did ask for that.. cuz ye progresion isnt the main thing that keeps ppl playing mmorpgs..

look at  war,aoc.. looking same whole game.. sure you start as good looking.. so what..

or another 2 , vanguard and eq2, christ.. how i disliked that i already start full armored in some pretty plate

sure im guy from nowhere.. washed up shore.. and i end up as soldier.. sure okey.. i get a job. i gota keep working , it all works out.. but when you pop out of nowhere.. with pretty gear.. that doesnt fit lore/gameplay at all.. and it dimishes progresion, you will look same for eternity... i hate it

its not the looks that atract us.. its that new shiny that does.. that xx item might been pretier.. but  its old.. boring.. and that new even half assed item will be precious..

that t2 set might be uglier than t1 set.. but noone will want t1 set anymore.. not cuz of stats.. cuz its new.. cuz it isnt boring.. cuz it distinquishes you from others..

do u mean like start powerful and end up really weak? lol, jk,  anyways, starting out strong would cut away all the adventures and the want to become more powerful, to better ur character. but i guess i dont kno what u mean; maybe u mean for ur character to start out "powerful" and at end-game it's like a god, where u can make ur own armies and cities. but the thought of a powerful noob is kinda scary

I would love to see the standart mmorpg to aproache it like eve did.

Even with little training you should be a boon for almost any group

(like t1 tacklers in a pvp gang),

not the ol *na ya cant come ya to low lvl*

or *na you cant come we need that spot for somone more powerfull*

ATM i miss the *mentoring* mechanic of EQ2 in LOTRO pretty much, its a fine idea to bring together

the playerbase to help each other out although your toons have lots of lvl between em.

((also i would love to see a worldwide chat in lotro, or i just missed it is there))

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Perhaps it's not starting off with lots of skills and power that annoys me, maybe it's that every game has you start off killing rats and other fairly tame wildlife/monsters.  Maybe I'm just looking for a different type of MOB to kill at lower levels.  Hell, I have been playing MMOs since 2002ish (started with EQ right around Luclin's release) and am really sick of grinding away on yet another 50 rats to ding lvl 10. Or maybe I'm just burnt out.

 

That's one of the many things I like about Lineage 2. With the exception of the initial elpies (rabbit things), the mobs I was fighting during my first few levels were my size or larger and menacing. Armed skeletons, towering stone beasts, giant nasty looking spiders, etc. I didn't feel like I was going through the usual rat, spider, snake, wolf newbie routine.

This is what I'm talking about.  Sadly, L2 is way too grindy for me to ever get into it and get anywhere near the level of most players, especially with all the competition from bots.