I found this to be a pretty accurate statement... 

================================================================

Gamer Bob says: MMOs suck.

People often credit WoW’s success because, in part, it’s a little bit of everything for everyone (in theory at least), and while that’s a great way to get into the genre, if you really want to focus on any one aspect you soon find WoW is somewhat limited. Yes WoW has PvP, but it’s limited by WoW’s PvE side, Blizzard’s somewhat disinterest in expanding WoW’s PvP, and by the fact that the engine is simply not built for it. Messing around in the BGs or arena is all well and good, but if you really want to PvP you play a game like Guild Wars, DarkFall, or WAR, depending on how far you want to take it. Same goes for the economy; WoW has an auction house and mods built around it, but no one is going to confuse the economic challenges of EVE or ATitD with making gold in WoW. Even for PvE, which is (or should be) WoW’s main focus, other games distill the formula and offer more focused gameplay, like the all-instanced PvE of DDO, the hardcore raiding of FFXI, or the casual do anything nature of CoX.

If we were to break down the MMO genre by category (raiding, PvP, economy, questing, graphics, sound, hardware demands, ect), and rate each game on ALL categories, WoW would likely come out with the highest overall total, yet it would not be the winner in any one single category, making it the jack-of-all-trades or most ‘mass market’ game. This of course is supported by WoW having millions of subs while everyone else is trying to hit 500k (or far less when we throw in more niche games like DF or ATitD).

What’s interesting is that overall, WoW players have NOT progressed from the entry game of the genre into other, more focused offerings. Aside from EVE’s continual growth, the genre as a whole has not seen subscription numbers grow from the height of EQ1’s popularity (500k-ish), and whether a game hits its mark (LotRO) or slightly misses (WAR), subscription numbers don’t vary greatly short of the massive disasters (TR, Hellgate). There are more MMOs out now with 100k+ subscribers than prior to WoW’s release in 2004, but it would appear that the majority of WoW players don’t move on to other games and stay. If anything, they try a game for a month, leave, and either return to WoW or leave the genre altogether.

Tourist jokes aside (not that the tourist problem is a joke, mind you), I’ve come to this brilliant conclusion: MMOs are just not that fun for most people.

I know, shocking.

With all the time we spend going back and forth on how X game is awesome and your MMO sucks, or how game Y would be so much better with feature Z, the majority of gamers are telling of us ALL our games suck. The whole genre, garbage. And in a way they are right. Why in gods name would I pay $15 a month to complete 100 kill x mob quests when I could do far more interesting tasks in a single player RPG? Why would I grind up an imbalanced character so I can PvP ‘sometimes’ when I can just get a FPS for cheap and have all-access to PvP of all flavors?

The ‘why’ of course is because I like MMOs, a lot, but WoW aside (and hence more support for the ‘perfect storm’ theory), most people just don’t. Beyond the 50-500k that WILL buy into your product, everyone else is just not that interested in the core ideas behind the genre, and short of abandoning that core (like Guild Wars does, and perhaps even Free Realms), no matter what you do you won’t attract and keep them. It’s not about how great your questing is, or how balanced the PvP turns out, or what form of character progression you go with, those who are not into the genre just can’t be bothered with the basics, details be damned.

And as long as developers understand this and stop trying to chase those who don’t care, the genre will continue on its path of success or failure based on the details, rather then the core. There is plenty of money to be made off those who DO care, and that base is slowly expanding, it’s just not seeing the massive growth WoW lead people to believe it was capable of.

I think you are missing a huge point: Wow players are not MMO players but Blizzard players.

Blizzard have had some millions players since '97 with Diablo and Starcraft, the main reason many of them play Wow is because they love Blizzards games, not MMOs.

Blizzard are good on knowing what their fans want and made Wow, the fans started playing. But the reason many of them play is not because they like MMOs but because the like Blizzard and therefore they have not moved into other games of the same genre. Ask any Wow fan if the like D 1 & 2, Starcraft and Warcraft 3, they did.

I am pretty certain that TOR will have the same impact on MMOs, to get the Bioware fans into MMOs.

But the other MMOs are not particulary cateering for Blizzard fans and I doubt most the fans will move until Blizzard releases their next game, it is not because MMOs suck but because Blizzard fans like Blizzard, not Turbine, Mythic or SOE.

Of course MMOs do have their problems, the companys are not much into new thinking but that really isn't relevant here.

Originally posted by Loke666

I think you are missing a huge point: Wow players are not MMO players but Blizzard players.

Blizzard have had some millions players since '97 with Diablo and Starcraft, the main reason many of them play Wow is because they love Blizzards games, not MMOs.

Blizzard are good on knowing what their fans want and made Wow, the fans started playing. But the reason many of them play is not because they like MMOs but because the like Blizzard and therefore they have not moved into other games of the same genre. Ask any Wow fan if the like D 1 & 2, Starcraft and Warcraft 3, they did.

I am pretty certain that TOR will have the same impact on MMOs, to get the Bioware fans into MMOs.

But the other MMOs are not particulary cateering for Blizzard fans and I doubt most the fans will move until Blizzard releases their next game, it is not because MMOs suck but because Blizzard fans like Blizzard, not Turbine, Mythic or SOE.

Of course MMOs do have their problems, the companys are not much into new thinking but that really isn't relevant here.

From the article...

What’s interesting is that overall, WoW players have NOT progressed from the entry game of the genre into other, more focused offerings. Aside from EVE’s continual growth, the genre as a whole has not seen subscription numbers grow from the height of EQ1’s popularity (500k-ish), and whether a game hits its mark (LotRO) or slightly misses (WAR), subscription numbers don’t vary greatly short of the massive disasters (TR, Hellgate). There are more MMOs out now with 100k+ subscribers than prior to WoW’s release in 2004, but it would appear that the majority of WoW players don’t move on to other games and stay. If anything, they try a game for a month, leave, and either return to WoW or leave the genre altogether.

Originally posted by porgie

I found this to be a pretty accurate statement... 

================================================================

Gamer Bob says: MMOs suck.

 

People often credit WoW’s success because, in part, it’s a little bit of everything for everyone (in theory at least), and while that’s a great way to get into the genre, if you really want to focus on any one aspect you soon find WoW is somewhat limited. Yes WoW has PvP, but it’s limited by WoW’s PvE side, Blizzard’s somewhat disinterest in expanding WoW’s PvP, and by the fact that the engine is simply not built for it. Messing around in the BGs or arena is all well and good, but if you really want to PvP you play a game like Guild Wars, DarkFall, or WAR, depending on how far you want to take it. Same goes for the economy; WoW has an auction house and mods built around it, but no one is going to confuse the economic challenges of EVE or ATitD with making gold in WoW. Even for PvE, which is (or should be) WoW’s main focus, other games distill the formula and offer more focused gameplay, like the all-instanced PvE of DDO, the hardcore raiding of FFXI, or the casual do anything nature of CoX.

If we were to break down the MMO genre by category (raiding, PvP, economy, questing, graphics, sound, hardware demands, ect), and rate each game on ALL categories, WoW would likely come out with the highest overall total, yet it would not be the winner in any one single category, making it the jack-of-all-trades or most ‘mass market’ game. This of course is supported by WoW having millions of subs while everyone else is trying to hit 500k (or far less when we throw in more niche games like DF or ATitD).

What’s interesting is that overall, WoW players have NOT progressed from the entry game of the genre into other, more focused offerings. Aside from EVE’s continual growth, the genre as a whole has not seen subscription numbers grow from the height of EQ1’s popularity (500k-ish), and whether a game hits its mark (LotRO) or slightly misses (WAR), subscription numbers don’t vary greatly short of the massive disasters (TR, Hellgate). There are more MMOs out now with 100k+ subscribers than prior to WoW’s release in 2004, but it would appear that the majority of WoW players don’t move on to other games and stay. If anything, they try a game for a month, leave, and either return to WoW or leave the genre altogether.

Tourist jokes aside (not that the tourist problem is a joke, mind you), I’ve come to this brilliant conclusion: MMOs are just not that fun for most people.

I know, shocking.

With all the time we spend going back and forth on how X game is awesome and your MMO sucks, or how game Y would be so much better with feature Z, the majority of gamers are telling of us ALL our games suck. The whole genre, garbage. And in a way they are right. Why in gods name would I pay $15 a month to complete 100 kill x mob quests when I could do far more interesting tasks in a single player RPG? Why would I grind up an imbalanced character so I can PvP ‘sometimes’ when I can just get a FPS for cheap and have all-access to PvP of all flavors?

The ‘why’ of course is because I like MMOs, a lot, but WoW aside (and hence more support for the ‘perfect storm’ theory), most people just don’t. Beyond the 50-500k that WILL buy into your product, everyone else is just not that interested in the core ideas behind the genre, and short of abandoning that core (like Guild Wars does, and perhaps even Free Realms), no matter what you do you won’t attract and keep them. It’s not about how great your questing is, or how balanced the PvP turns out, or what form of character progression you go with, those who are not into the genre just can’t be bothered with the basics, details be damned.

And as long as developers understand this and stop trying to chase those who don’t care, the genre will continue on its path of success or failure based on the details, rather then the core. There is plenty of money to be made off those who DO care, and that base is slowly expanding, it’s just not seeing the massive growth WoW lead people to believe it was capable of.

WoW's success comes from great marketing strat. and the fact that its "Preatty" and attracts the attention of those that never played an mmorpg. ALOT of players never even heard of mmorpgs untill their friends got them into playing wow for the social aspect of the game.
 

And your missing the point of "1 mans trash is another mans gold!" in other words some people like MMO's others don't Some like end game some don't! 

You can't no matter how hard you try make every person happy with a game.

So in my opinion...its not MMO's that suck.....its people suck!!

Well because Blizzard made such outstanding games prior to WOW why would the majority trust another company ? This is why I firmly believe that companies need to learn how to make quality games first before venturing in the mmo market. Blizzard isn't just a gaming company its a brand name that sells. Very few other companies can say that, Bioware and Arenanet is also in that company. This is why these companies succeed while others continue to fail.

Opinions are like a**holes.

And that's exactly what that editorial is. Opinion.

And opinion I don't agree with.

Originally posted by Loke666

 Ask any Wow fan if the like D 1 & 2, Starcraft and Warcraft 3, they did.

Come on... I'm fairly sure that almost EVERYONE liked D 1 & 2, Starcraft, and WC3

Originally posted by jakojako

Originally posted by Loke666

 Ask any Wow fan if the like D 1 & 2, Starcraft and Warcraft 3, they did.

 

Come on... I'm fairly sure that almost EVERYONE liked D 1 & 2, Starcraft, and WC3

Dont be too sure on that comment...

Originally posted by firefly2003

Originally posted by jakojako

Originally posted by Loke666

 Ask any Wow fan if the like D 1 & 2, Starcraft and Warcraft 3, they did.

 

Come on... I'm fairly sure that almost EVERYONE liked D 1 & 2, Starcraft, and WC3

Dont be too sure on that comment...

Seriously, I bet you a ton of WoW players have never played SC, WC, or Diablo.  Or even heard of them.  I just started WoW and I have played SC before but I don't like RTS games in general so I didn't like it.

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Originally posted by firefly2003

Originally posted by jakojako

Originally posted by Loke666

 Ask any Wow fan if the like D 1 & 2, Starcraft and Warcraft 3, they did.

 

Come on... I'm fairly sure that almost EVERYONE liked D 1 & 2, Starcraft, and WC3

Dont be too sure on that comment...

 

Seriously, I bet you a ton of WoW players have never played SC, WC, or Diablo.  Or even heard of them.  I just started WoW and I have played SC before but I don't like RTS games in general so I didn't like it.

I don't think the t.v. commercials hurt much.

Who doesn't want to play WoW after watching a night elf and orc fight in the grocery store over what Mt. Dew flavor they bought. 

i can say as of yet  ^v^is a major urdle for wow(forget  arena lol)

wintergrasp when they lauched it was the worst

why

it was too popular

will the same thing happens with next big in september we ll see but if the last 4 years are any indication

they might have problem,since they raised the number of player by about 1.5 million player just last year

So the author discovered that most people are simply superficial and have no taste wroth mentioning.  They are happy with their daily cheesburger and dont really care to taste food in luxury restaurant.

Ok. Whats new?

Gamer Bob has it spot on. I agree 100%.

And here I thought I was the only one...

Originally posted by Loke666

I think you are missing a huge point: Wow players are not MMO players but Blizzard players.

Blizzard have had some millions players since '97 with Diablo and Starcraft, the main reason many of them play Wow is because they love Blizzards games, not MMOs.

Blizzard are good on knowing what their fans want and made Wow, the fans started playing. But the reason many of them play is not because they like MMOs but because the like Blizzard and therefore they have not moved into other games of the same genre. Ask any Wow fan if the like D 1 & 2, Starcraft and Warcraft 3, they did.

I am pretty certain that TOR will have the same impact on MMOs, to get the Bioware fans into MMOs.

But the other MMOs are not particulary cateering for Blizzard fans and I doubt most the fans will move until Blizzard releases their next game, it is not because MMOs suck but because Blizzard fans like Blizzard, not Turbine, Mythic or SOE.

Of course MMOs do have their problems, the companys are not much into new thinking but that really isn't relevant here.

I second that. Almighty Blizzard has been worshiped way before WoW.

Originally posted by porgie

I found this to be a pretty accurate statement... 

And as long as developers understand this and stop trying to chase those who don’t care, the genre will continue on its path of success or failure based on the details, rather then the core. There is plenty of money to be made off those who DO care, and that base is slowly expanding, it’s just not seeing the massive growth WoW lead people to believe it was capable of.

I agree with most of the writers response. However, this part here  I kept is really true. Before WoW went mainstream, there was around 1-2 million total "true" mmo players world wide playing. Blizzard sold their mmo idea to people who would make fun of, never think twice or even heard of mmos. I was playing WoW the other day to see what they have changed. I got into a decent conversation with this one fellow and asked him what previous mmos he has played if any. He replied, "What is a mmo"? I didnt make fun of him but It was very sad that you don't even know what type of game your playing. That is a prime example. These players who never played an mmo before are the majority of people who don't give a shit about anything but WoW. Why? Because overtime they bought into Blizzards mmo system and they can't understand anything else because they are not true mmo players. I am not saying all mmo players who played Wow are like this but the majority of them are.

I really believe these designers need to target niche crowds right now because those are the mmo players who want a good game and understands it. Honestly I talk about my mmo ideas here like its a religion, but I am making mine for a certain niche. Grow on that niche over time and have a consistant subscriber base. If one can make EQ numbers (500k) and have it consistantly, more than likely most of them will be good players. I want a good community for my game because I am sick of what these games and other games produce in that respect. I am telling you, its the new mmo players who are taken over this genre and claiming thier territory by whinning and saying everything sucks. Why would anyone design a game for potty mouth children? I guess passion for designing an mmo comes before money for me anyways.

Originally posted by Loke666

I think you are missing a huge point: Wow players are not MMO players but Blizzard players.

Blizzard have had some millions players since '97 with Diablo and Starcraft, the main reason many of them play Wow is because they love Blizzards games, not MMOs.

Blizzard are good on knowing what their fans want and made Wow, the fans started playing. But the reason many of them play is not because they like MMOs but because the like Blizzard and therefore they have not moved into other games of the same genre. Ask any Wow fan if the like D 1 & 2, Starcraft and Warcraft 3, they did.

I am pretty certain that TOR will have the same impact on MMOs, to get the Bioware fans into MMOs.

But the other MMOs are not particularly catering for Blizzard fans and I doubt most the fans will move until Blizzard releases their next game, it is not because MMOs suck but because Blizzard fans like Blizzard, not Turbine, Mythic or SOE.

Of course MMOs do have their problems, the company's are not much into new thinking but that really isn't relevant here.

This is absolutely right. WoW won initially because of their large and polished IP. People knew what they were going to get in the initial MMO. Later it succeeded because the genre is more fun with the largest amount of players and WoW had that because of Blizz's immensely popular IP.

It's very true about WoW players being new to MMOs.

I have a friend (Well, multiple friends but 1 in particular) who thinks WoW is the only MMO ever invented. I was arguing about how WoW is nothing special, and hasn't contributed to the MMO genre at all. To which his reply was that no other game exists like WoW.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's many players in WoW that haven't a clue how massive the MMO genre is.

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

It's very true about WoW players being new to MMOs.

I have a friend (Well, multiple friends but 1 in particular) who thinks WoW is the only MMO ever invented. I was arguing about how WoW is nothing special, and hasn't contributed to the MMO genre at all. To which his reply was that no other game exists like WoW.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's many players in WoW that haven't a clue how massive the MMO genre is.

Your an idiot if you think that WoW hasn't contributed to the MMO genre. Over its lifetime it has turned the genre into a viable market. it has by its very existence put 1000's of new companies into business. It has sparked the imaginations of every individual in this forum either directly or in reaction of its success. WoW holds as many subscribers now as all three of the earliest MMORPG's combined.

Wow was not revolutionary but they were evolutionary we would not be where we are today without their success.

1000's of companies? Name me 100 companies and I'll accept 1000's as truth.

Viable: •feasible: capable of being done with means at hand and circumstances as they are.

The MMO genre was a "viable market" before WoW was even an idea in a developers mind. Proof? The hundreds of MMOs that existed before WoW.

You do not need WoW to spark imagination. I've piled rocks up from sitting on the ground out of boredom that sparked my imagination. I also don't know of too many, well any to be exact, MMOs that exist whose influence is WoW.

You're also taking my comment to a whole new extreme. In some way EVERYTHING effects something. Me popping my fingers in public will annoy someone who goes home and yells at his wife who doesn't cook his favorite meal which pisses him off so he doesn't read to his kid at night which makes the kid sad ect ect ect.

You can argue semantics and nit pick if you want, I don't care. But you'll only waste your time.

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

1000's of companies? Name me 100 companies and I'll accept 1000's as truth.

Viable: •feasible: capable of being done with means at hand and circumstances as they are.

The MMO genre was a "viable market" before WoW was even an idea in a developers mind. Proof? The hundreds of MMOs that existed before WoW.

You do not need WoW to spark imagination. I've piled rocks up from sitting on the ground out of boredom that sparked my imagination. I also don't know of too many, well any to be exact, MMOs that exist whose influence is WoW.

You're also taking my comment to a whole new extreme. In some way EVERYTHING effects something. Me popping my fingers in public will annoy someone who goes home and yells at his wife who doesn't cook his favorite meal which pisses him off so he doesn't read to his kid at night which makes the kid sad ect ect ect.

You can argue semantics and nit pick if you want, I don't care. But you'll only waste your time.

Look at the game list on this site.
 

Show me 20 MMORPG's previous to wow's inception and ill accept 100's as truth.