I don't think there will be any consensus... I like leveling, but I also like endgame. Perhaps that makes me a sadist? But I like to learn about the land, etc., while leveling up, so I guess that helps make it seem less boring to me.

A lot of the general problem with leveling is the quests, they just keep repeating over and over and over. It's only possible to do them so many times before you're exhausted with them.

I ran to max level in eq1, eq2, wow, daoc, and a few other games at one point or another... and generally I can stomach doing it once or twice in each game if the starting areas and questing areas are diverse enough, but after that.. meh.

I think the only true way to fix that problem is get rid of 95% of the quests in games, make a truly breathing interacting world and the problem goes away. Quests arise because of need in the game not because the dev put it there.

Players kill the wildlife in an area, goblins start raiding towns for food since their natural source is gone, merchants hire mercenaries (or players) to stop the goblins raids, players kill goblins, wildlife starts to recover having no natural predators, mercs get bored with nothing to do and take over city to make it their personal 'home', get in fights, players get hired to remove mercenaries from town, etc, etc... forever. Events need to happen and the world needs to evolve and interact.

Until that happens quests multi leveling in the same game will be a nightmare.

It's bad enough there are a limited number of 'types' of quests in mmmos... "fedex", "kill", etc... shrug.

I look forward to it becoming more of a breathing living world.

Leveling is not fun more than once if most experience is derived from linear tasks and errands which is how many theme park games are designed. Once you have performed the task/errand, it is boring and repetitive to do it again.

In a MMOG where most experience is earned from hunting though, like a sandbox design would be based on, then you can keep it interesting and fresh by choosing different mobs. Also if you play a different class or use other skillsets then you are trying something new and a system which promotes hunting for experience gain is more suited for experimenting with different classes and skillsets.

I made a thread stating more or less the same. Levels 1-10 are the same in every freaking game that I can't be bothered to try any more MMORPG that use the same stupid model. I'm tired of starting off with no abilities, no access to any content except the "tutorial" area, and being put in this sadistic situation where I need to trudge through 2-4 hours of bullcrap before I even get my class's signature ability.

Yeah, at the risk of identifying myself as "that guy" I enjoyed the setup pre-cu SWG had.  You have skill trees instead of levels, and the crafting/non-combat trees were right alongside the combat ones in importance.  You could pretty much master any combo you wanted in a week or less, but that also meant you could change easily whenever you felt like it without having to reroll.

I won't say there were any amazing quests at the time, and the areas to explore were generally pretty bland, but players didn't feel pressured to just max out some combat profession asap.  Most people I saw just kind of enjoyed themselves with whatever aspect of the game they liked most and the xp came with it over time.  It was a pretty tight-knit community.

It had it's issues obviously, and that's all gone now, but I don't understand why most haven't tried a tweaked version of it instead of sticking with the same boring level system.

I also don't like the idea of a skill based system that lets you master everything given time.  That makes me feel like I have to pay a year's worth of subscription fees to get the most out of the game.  Console games don't work like that, neither should mmos.  Let me have reallocatable skill points with a limit.

I'm never really bored when I'm playing my game. Sure DDO is revolved around repeating dungeons over and over again but playing with different people / making fun classes is really where the longevity of the game lies. There a lot of people that say DDO is boring but, they never got past level 6 i bet.

I like the levelling process in theory and over time will level up many different chars if...

There's multiple races with their own starter towns (or at least different starter places).

There's lots of different classes that play differently (even better if each race has 3/4 classes unique to that race).

There's either different quests for different classes or solo quest grinding isn't the main levelling mechanism.

its fun 0 times

interesting point. I suppose once you've done the shallow gameplay grind once you're pretty much done it in every mmo so is it a surprise you don't want to do it again. The journey needs a bit more umph than kill x or y mobs.

If a game's combat/quests/etc isn't fun, you're in the wrong game...possibly the wrong genre. Accept that your tastes are different and move onto another game or genre.

Pretty much the main reason I don't have alt's just a main.  After doing the quest / story line once I just can't get excited at doing it again.   For me it's the story that's more important.  Once I've finished it, doing it again wouldn't be exciting as I'd know what happened or what to do to blow through it the fastest way possible.

That's one point I'll give the current SWG; you can change professions at the drop of a hat.  And quite frankly with the Legacy Quest line that's a good thing as I wouldn't wish re-doing it on anyone.

I don't think leveling is fun...period.

Getting new abilities is fun. Getting stronger and such is fun. But watching my exp bar snail it's way up, watching my char glow all pretty and maybe some fancy music.  Nope, that's boring.

Originally posted by Axehilt

If a game's combat/quests/etc isn't fun, you're in the wrong game...possibly the wrong genre. Accept that your tastes are different and move onto another game or genre.
 

I dunno. Pretty much all the things that could keep me subbing to a game for years I've seen in various MMORPGs I've tried - just not all in the same one at once :)

it's was the same when i played DnD.  First character to reach anything higher than level 5 (hes level 8 now...but we took a break) was fine.  After that i hardly got any past level 3

Originally posted by gestalt11

Leveling as it currently exists and has existed since the first days of D&D has never been fun for me.

 

This is because D&D, and therefore everything else that followed, started you off as a little wank with barely anything cool where one effing arrow could kill you.

 

A good example of this is the Lore Master class in LOTRO.  This case actually refutes the argument that the first 10 levels that almost no one likes is to "train" you.  Well LM suck until at least 16 and cannot even execute one of the their signature play style paths (nuker) until around level 35.  Its a great class ofter that and leveling has been fine for me.  But almost every LM who makes into the 40s and gets their legendary trait that makes them badass (sword and staff) tells all the lowbies the same thing, suffer through it.  Its not fun, its painful but its worth it.

Sorry but that is not game design, that is just plain crap.

 

Why the hell do I have to suffer through this crap?  I blame D&D.  Or more correctly I blame hidebound RPG designers who cannot deviate from their formulas because at least in D&D it made some sense and you had a DM.

I loved D&D and other PnP games I played; the level progression in them did not bother me usually because we had an excellent DM.  Oh and LM in LotRO is CC and was never intended to be a "nuker"; this role was not truely introduced until the RK.

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Originally posted by gestalt11
Why the hell do I have to suffer through this crap?  I blame D&D.  Or more correctly I blame hidebound RPG designers who cannot deviate from their formulas because at least in D&D it made some sense and you had a DM.

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It's a bit silly to infer D&D might be to blame for LOTRO's lackluster class design. It's a combination of LOTR itself being lackluster, and the class designer(s) not hitting upon the key elements that make classes fun in games.

The concept of leveling in games is perfectly sound. Start the player with limited options and gradually introduce new ones as he/she becomes accustomed to the existing ones. But the important thing that many games miss is ensuring the player's options at any given point keep him/her interested in the game.

I tried LOTRO not too long ago, and the LM certainly seemed like a boring class to me. I think I got to 18 or so before giving up.

At least it was better than WAR class design. Apart from WAR's classes being over the top and interesting aesthetically, their gameplay was quite shallow. There was a distinct lack of any tactical decisionmaking, you merely spammed the same series of abilities over and over. A lot different than WOW or even LOTRO, where cooldowns were properly balanced to make you put a little thought into what ability you use at any given moment.

While I'm sure the community is sick of hearing about it, the strength of the original SWG game was that it wasn't as heavily centered on grinding and missions.  There was a vast, intricate economy and NO loot drops whatsoever.  So the game came down to locating the best resources to craft and vendors to purchase all of your weapons and consumables, like armor, food, weapon powerups, stimulants, stat buffs, etc.

With 32 professions, each having unique abilites and goods that would enhance your character and gear, the game became about discovering the people in the game.  You had an actual community where every single character was dependent on every other player in the game to provide him with everything he needed to thrive in the gameworld.  And since your character probably crafted something other players needed, you quickly developed a network of resource gatherers who sold you the raw materials to make your wares.

The game was the people, the characters, not the mindless grinding.  There were no levels per se, just skills that you could learn and drop any time you wanted.

For the life of me I can't figure out why developers don't understand that player interaction is fun.  Shooting a thousand rats is not.

Originally posted by jmatt55

While I'm sure the community is sick of hearing about it, the strength of the original SWG game was that it wasn't as heavily centered on grinding and missions.  There was a vast, intricate economy and NO loot drops whatsoever.  So the game came down to locating the best resources to craft and vendors to purchase all of your weapons and consumables, like armor, food, weapon powerups, stimulants, stat buffs, etc.

With 32 professions, each having unique abilites and goods that would enhance your character and gear, the game became about discovering the people in the game.  You had an actual community where every single character was dependent on every other player in the game to provide him with everything he needed to thrive in the gameworld.  And since your character probably crafted something other players needed, you quickly developed a network of resource gatherers who sold you the raw materials to make your wares.

The game was the people, the characters, not the mindless grinding.  There were no levels per se, just skills that you could learn and drop any time you wanted.

For the life of me I can't figure out why developers don't understand that player interaction is fun.  Shooting a thousand rats is not.

Actaully, SWG was all about grinding and missions if you were not participating in the economy full time.    To me the biggest barrier to getting into the SWG manufacturing professions was the most horrible grinding interface I have encountered.  I love being a crafter but in SWG trying to skill up a crafting profession actually caused physical pain to my wrist.  And once you gave up on the crafting, grinding and mission running was pretty much all that SWG had to offer.