I'm sure this has been discussed quite a bit here and there but I've never seen a discussion on it so I'd like to see some peoples opinions.

Today I canceled my wow account (for like the 50th time) and I'm not sure if I'll permanently quit or not, but the whole base reason is leveling to end game. Wow, no doubt, is an "end game" type of game. All competitive PVP and all advancement PVE is based on end game material. Wow's 3.2 patch has a lot centered around making leveling easier (mounts at lower levels etc. etc.) which to me shows they are trying to get higher level players to level alts (to maintain that subscription no doubt).

The problem is that someone has to play through 1-60 in azeroth (several days of played time), 60-70 in the outlands (around 20 hours or so), and then 70-80 in northrend (another 50 or so hours). Then they have to get gear (up to hundreds of hours) to find out whether or not they like their class enough to actually stick with it or just barely enough to keep them leveling.

Wow to me has always been about end game, get to end game... the leveling sucks. And I'm not the only one that feels this way, ALL of my friends feel the same way and from what I've read... many posters and players feel the same way.

Then today I got thinking about it, I don't want to be forced to get to end game to do things that are enjoyable, and then be forced to do it again if you randomly decide to ruin my class, or any number of other things that you could do. I want leveling content that is fun or the importance of level taken off of content (within reason of course).

The best example of a game that I can think of to (with relative success) pull this off is Asheron's Call. Leveling was fun, there were actually things to do if you decided you didn't want to level at that moment because you weren't uber restricted to leveling. There was more than 2 areas you could level in at your level, etc. etc..

This all made me think back to an article that I read, maybe it was on here, where a person was interviewing people at E3 and asking them where they were in wow and they were all saying their levels instead of "westfall" or "scarlet monastery: cathedral" or any number of things. Content prior to end game is just the chore to get to end game.

Now I'm not trying to say that leveling is always going to be the most fun part of a game or that it should be, but I feel like a game that adds fun things to do at every level and takes the importance away from "end game" and spreads it more evenly throughout the game will have a good chance at being wildly successful.

I wanted to add that a replyer posted about whether or not I feel as though MMORPG's are a long term hobby and then added some riff raff about wow adding content all the time. I would like to say that if there was content worth participating in at levels other than the max level then people wouldn't fly to end game and MMORPG's could still be a viable long term hobby. I've played asheron's call off and on since it's release (almost 10 years ago... wow) and never made it to the level cap.

Now I guess I've detracted a bit in sounding as though I'm saying endgame shouldn't exist, because it should, but I'm also saying it shouldn't be the only point of a game... which right now is pretty much the trend.

Can someone pro "end game only content" list their opinions and reasons instead of wow's sale numbers?

Does the end game matter? Not to those of us who rarely, if ever, get there. I usually burn my self out way before I get to this supposed end game.

Getting to 80 in days in no great accomplishment after watching Tim the Enchantor take months to get to 126 in Asheron's Call. And that was with an entire guild passing up experience to him. Of course, that was before XP chains were created. It took me over 4 years to get to 80.

I hear ya man. I fucking HATE "end-game" mentality. I pine about games like Anarchy Online (in the old days) when NO ONE had reached the level 200 cap and still everyone had plenty of fun things to do. In fact, at level 200 you had basically "beat the game", and it was time to roll an alt. People expected it to take a year to hit cap, and had a great time in the meantime.

I mean, if the "content" of a game doesn't happen 'till the level cap, why not just eliminate levels entirely?? The choice of course is to make a game that's fun and engaging at ALL levels, and where a level 1 can have just as much fun as a capped toon on any given day.

But that would require someone to have some balls and step away from the wow-clone mentality.

Originally posted by grunty

Does the end game matter? Not to those of us who rarely, if ever, get there. I usually burn my self out way before I get to this supposed end game.

Getting to 80 in days in no great accomplishment after watching Tim the Enchantor take months to get to 126 in Asheron's Call. And that was with an entire guild passing up experience to him. Of course, that was before XP chains were created. It took me over 4 years to get to 80.

I remember Tim hitting 126 as well =D

I had several characters that I've played over the years since asheron's call released. My latest stint was back in March. I never hit end game and I loved it the WHOLE TIME because there was always something fun to do. End game was not fundamentally different than level 1.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

I hear ya man. I fucking HATE "end-game" mentality. I pine about games like Anarchy Online (in the old days) when NO ONE had reached the level 200 cap and still everyone had plenty of fun things to do. In fact, at level 200 you had basically "beat the game", and it was time to roll an alt. People expected it to take a year to hit cap, and had a great time in the meantime.

I mean, if the "content" of a game doesn't happen 'till the level cap, why not just eliminate levels entirely?? The choice of course is to make a game that's fun and engaging at ALL levels, and where a level 1 can have just as much fun as a capped toon on any given day.

But that would require someone to have some balls and step away from the wow-clone mentality.

this x10

I think it all depends on if you view an MMORPG as a long term hobby.  Games with good endgames like WoW contantly keep new content coming for their players.

I totally agree. Most MMOs lose my interest far before I ever reach the fabled end-game because getting there is just agonizingly boring. I really wish MMO developers would focus more on making the road to level cap a fun and enjoyable experience. There will always undoubtedly be those who rush to reach the level cap, driven by some ridiculous desire to "win", but what about those of us that are more interested in the journey than the destination.

Originally posted by ghettobooste

I think it all depends on if you view an MMORPG as a long term hobby.  Games with good endgames like WoW contantly keep new content coming for their players.

Well since I've been playing them for... oh 12 years or so now... I'd say yes I do view them as a long term hobby. Wow is still an "end game" type of game and adding content doesnt change that nor does it detract from the fact that leveling blows and the majority of MMORPG'ers that have voiced their opinion on the subject agree with me.

If you make leveling fun enough people wont FLY to the end and MMORPG's can still be a long term hobby....

To add: the amount of content added in wow's "patches" is a joke and laughably small.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

I hear ya man. I fucking HATE "end-game" mentality. I pine about games like Anarchy Online (in the old days) when NO ONE had reached the level 200 cap and still everyone had plenty of fun things to do. In fact, at level 200 you had basically "beat the game", and it was time to roll an alt. People expected it to take a year to hit cap, and had a great time in the meantime.

I mean, if the "content" of a game doesn't happen 'till the level cap, why not just eliminate levels entirely?? The choice of course is to make a game that's fun and engaging at ALL levels, and where a level 1 can have just as much fun as a capped toon on any given day.

But that would require someone to have some balls and step away from the wow-clone mentality.

Yeah pretty much nailed it here.

Originally posted by Povey151

Originally posted by ghettobooste

I think it all depends on if you view an MMORPG as a long term hobby.  Games with good endgames like WoW contantly keep new content coming for their players.

 

... nor does it detract from the fact that leveling blows and the majority of MMORPG'ers that have voiced their opinion on the subject agree with me.

90% of the gaming community disagrees with you... with their choice of game.

I think game get to a point where most of their player base is.. after 4 years or so,, mostly at the level cap.  It would be lazy of the developers not to make end game content. 

I guess you didnt notice that MMOs like AC and AO that kept adding levels so that getting to max level was impossible stagnated whereas EQ that eventually becoame all about end game raiding flourished.

A few recent MMOs like CoH and LotRO tried to be more about leveling than end game but CoH floundered and LotRO added increasing emphasis to end game raids.

If you want to be successful in the MMO genre you absolutely must have a good end game and good PvP.

Originally posted by ghettobooste

Originally posted by Povey151

Originally posted by ghettobooste

I think it all depends on if you view an MMORPG as a long term hobby.  Games with good endgames like WoW contantly keep new content coming for their players.

 

... nor does it detract from the fact that leveling blows and the majority of MMORPG'ers that have voiced their opinion on the subject agree with me.

 

90% of the gaming community disagrees with you... with their choice of game.

No they don't, whats the average population of a wow server? How many people are actively leveling alt's at any given time? I think i've had 30 people say they can't stand leveling, especially alts, to every 1 person that likes it (in wow and on their forums)

Right now there isn't an option to really avoid this and since wow is the best of what there is people are going to play it. Dont confuse people not wanting something different with the industry only creating one style because they want to make money.

In fact, how many end game people only log on for their weekly raids?

Originally posted by Xiaoki

I guess you didnt notice that MMOs like AC and AO that kept adding levels so that getting to max level was impossible stagnated whereas EQ that eventually becoame all about end game raiding flourished.

A few recent MMOs like CoH and LotRO tried to be more about leveling than end game but CoH floundered and LotRO added increasing emphasis to end game raids.

If you want to be successful in the MMO genre you absolutely must have a good end game and good PvP.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have a good end game, but why is end game the only focus of so many games any more...

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

I hear ya man. I fucking HATE "end-game" mentality. I pine about games like Anarchy Online (in the old days) when NO ONE had reached the level 200 cap and still everyone had plenty of fun things to do. In fact, at level 200 you had basically "beat the game", and it was time to roll an alt. People expected it to take a year to hit cap, and had a great time in the meantime.

I mean, if the "content" of a game doesn't happen 'till the level cap, why not just eliminate levels entirely?? The choice of course is to make a game that's fun and engaging at ALL levels, and where a level 1 can have just as much fun as a capped toon on any given day.

But that would require someone to have some balls and step away from the wow-clone mentality.

Such a game exists, its called EVE.

But you knew that.

No it is not important because all games must have an ending sooner or later. What should be more important is more of a focus on the journey to the end. Developers should provide sufficient amount of content so that we aren't finishing the game within 2 weeks so to speak. Endgame is overrated.

 I contest that any game that ends when you reach the highest level isn't truly an MMO.  Therefore, MMOs should not have levels, nor a distinction between "end-game" and "game".

Originally posted by demalus

 I contest that any game that ends when you reach the highest level isn't truly an MMO.  Therefore, MMOs should not have levels, nor a distinction between "end-game" and "game".

Although I do agree with this, roughly, i think there needs to still be a method to measure advancement. Be it equipment, skill advancement, etc... which translates to "level"

Originally posted by Povey151

Originally posted by demalus

 I contest that any game that ends when you reach the highest level isn't truly an MMO.  Therefore, MMOs should not have levels, nor a distinction between "end-game" and "game".

 

Although I do agree with this, roughly, i think there needs to still be a method to measure advancement. Be it equipment, skill advancement, etc... which translates to "level"

I agree.  Here is the problem though:  the game needs to be ABOUT the game-world / community, not ABOUT the levels.  Playing D&D, one is more focused on the world rather than what level he or she is (in my experience anyways).  When the game is at its core about achievement, well....it just doesn't need to be made as an MMO.  Most MMOs that are like that would be much better games if they weren't made as MMOs.  (looking at you WoW :P)

Im greedy. I want a nice start, a good journey and an awesome endgame.

And I actually think Im not the only one.

I agree, for the most part, with most of the posts so far.  Level grinding to get to endgame material is getting old.  As for the comment on a game with an end isn't an MMO, I would say that a game with an end isn't really a RPG but is still MMO in the sense that it is massive multi-player online.  The fundamental flaw in today's games is that they are NOT MMORPG, they are just multi-player.  They act like it is impossible to have a RPG be multi-player, but they do seem to want our money!!  It is always about money, not the players, not the communities or anything else!  MONEY MONEY MONEY! 

Making great online games is sort of like making great TV shows.  They gear all of the content to the lowest denominator in order to draw in customers or ratings.  So many great shows have been axed because of supposedly low viewership and yet they keep this other crap on TV because they get people with an 8th-grade education to watch.  In order for things to change we have to convince game developers that we are willing to pay MONEY for a great, well thought out, take your time, more balanced playing MMORPG, and that we actually want it to be RPG.  I remember playing so many great single player games that had way more roleplaying than WoW or most all other MMO's I have tried.  The Elder Scrolls series, Temple of Elemental Evil, Freelancer, and even Neverwinter Nights all had more RPG in them than WoW.

Getting back to the endgame stuff, however, I would say that I would love to play a game that is FUN thoughout and you don't have to wait until you level cap before getting the fun PvP or gear.  If only they could take a lesson from some of the pen and paper games that weren't level based but skill based.  Obviously, EVE is on the right track with a skill based system, but some have complained that they feel outmatched with their starting ship vs an established player whom has been with the game since launch.  Sadly, though, it is almost like gaming companies don't learn from both their own and other manufacturers mistakes.