Roleplayers in modern MMOs are pretty much always going to be the minority at this point, so I don't think that population matters much. I'm going to say that for popular MMOs the ratio of RP to Non-RP is probably about the same. The quality of RP is... in a sense maybe related to game populationsbut that's not really fair because you have games like WoW, Lineage, and whatever F2P games are at the top like MapleStory  (I'd say people RPing in this is probably debatable, but I woudn't doubt it happens) pr Perfect World  who have vastly larger player bases (internationally at least) than most titles. Naturally you're going to find more bad RPers simply because there are more players, just as I would be more likely to find more green M&Ms the more bags I open.

It's difficult to compare popular MMOs to niche MMOs because they're really two different beasts. One is meant to cater to everyone and their guinea pig while the other speaks to a specific demographic.

In all, I think that there may be some kind of correlation between population and RP quality but that's just numbers, and it works inversely as well in that larger populations would also mean more potentially good RPers.

Furthermore, Roleplaying in games like WoW is much different than what some might traditionally consider roleplaying. I'd say the mechanics are indeed limiting but the potential to roleplay and give your character more than just a face and a sword to swing are still there. They're not so much a means of sculpting the game as they are a more enriching way to socialize within the game. Its a way to really give MMOs that... massively multiplayer feel. Admittedly, most of the same things that occur could happen in an IRC chat room, but if people want PnP style RPing, they should probably just play a PnP RPG. WoW probably isn't the best example either. A MMO with more open PvP would lend itself better to more open roleplaying because you also have the possibility of diplomatic scenarios and that whole waging war thing.

Originally posted by AgentsAreGo 

A MMO with more open PvP would lend itself better to more open roleplaying because you also have the possibility of diplomatic scenarios and that whole waging war thing.

I agree with this, and at the same time, it's going to be a case of how much you can depend on the other guy to be willing to roleplay. Say two people encounter eachother in the wilderness of a free for all PvP game. Person A is a roleplayer while Person B is a strictly competitive PKer. It doesn't matter how much diplomacy Person A tries to initiate, because while he's typing out "Please, let's be reasonable. I am just a traveler in these lands, and I come in peace.", person B is busy wailing on him until he dies, teabags the corpse, /spits, takes the loot, and moves on to the next kill. Person A, after having experienced this over and over again, either decides to change his playstyle to match Person B in order to survive in the game, or he leaves the game. Either way, the roleplay erodes and the game turns into yet another glorified version of Battlefield: Whatever.

With respect to the thread topic, I don't think it's so much a case of population affecting RP quality, but how the game facilitates it. No PvP or sandbox play means that you can't really do much more than the IRC style of RP you mentioned, which is basically interactive, on-the-fly storytelling with no tangible effect in the game. A PvP sandbox, on the other hand, provides the ability for more meaningful RP, but attracts the more RP-unfriendly types. It's a bit of a paradox.

Originally posted by Scot

Maybe we roleplay just because we like doing it? I don’t need a reward but I am not against people being given one. I would give a RMT (Roleplaying Micro Transaction) MMO a go. :)

I think higher populations at launch often kill RP in MMO’s. You get some roleplaying in Betas, then the masses turn up at launch and anyone roleplaying is swamped.
 

I'm not saying that RPers don't do it for the enjoyment or that they shouldn't, I'm saying that a group who RPs gets nothing for their efforts and a group that plays the game and doesn't RP gets all the rewards, advancement, gear, etc.  A group that RPs will sit at level 1 forever because they're not making use of the game mechanics.  The more you make use of the mechanics, the less RPing gets done overall so it's a trade-off.  I'm not saying you ought to get rewarded for RPing, only that the lack of reward makes RPing seem less important if you also value playing the game.

How about we add a corrollary:

The larger the population of a game the greater the suspension of disbelief that is required

gesalt11 made be laugh there. Who has not been to a new content zone, a region meant to be a wilderness, far flung from all civilisation and found it chock full of players? :)

Suddenly I'm picturing a line about 100 people long of WoW players in Elwynn Forest waiting for their shot at killing Hogger, and realizing nothing more needs to be said. :D

As I said in a previous post, I've thought about RPing.  It seems like it could be a lot of fun.  My main problem is, I don't want to RP a mideivel character.  If there was a modern type MMORPG with a world that paralelled ours, I would give it a shot.  I'm sure more people would try the RP thing if the settings were modern.  They wouldn't have to change the way they speak so much, so they would be more relaxed about it. 

I really don't think it has too much to do with populations.  I just don't feel comfortable using all this mideveil/fantasy jargon, and I'm sure that's the case for most people.  Also, from what I hear, RPers are very critical of people who are RPing wrong (i have no real experience because I've never RPed).  It would be much easier on RP noobs if they could just speak the way they always do. Just leave out the LuLz, etc and focus on the roleplay. 

Originally posted by bleyzwun

As I said in a previous post, I've thought about RPing.  It seems like it could be a lot of fun.  My main problem is, I don't want to RP a mideivel character.  If there was a modern type MMORPG with a world that paralelled ours, I would give it a shot.  I'm sure more people would try the RP thing if the settings were modern.  They wouldn't have to change the way they speak so much, so they would be more relaxed about it. 

I really don't think it has too much to do with populations.  I just don't feel comfortable using all this mideveil/fantasy jargon, and I'm sure that's the case for most people.  Also, from what I hear, RPers are very critical of people who are RPing wrong (i have no real experience because I've never RPed).  It would be much easier on RP noobs if they could just speak the way they always do. Just leave out the LuLz, etc and focus on the roleplay. 

Second Life is that mmo.

Sometimes for me the only good part of an MMO is the RP. Take LOTRO for example..

Originally posted by Eogris

Originally posted by bleyzwun

As I said in a previous post, I've thought about RPing.  It seems like it could be a lot of fun.  My main problem is, I don't want to RP a mideivel character.  If there was a modern type MMORPG with a world that paralelled ours, I would give it a shot.  I'm sure more people would try the RP thing if the settings were modern.  They wouldn't have to change the way they speak so much, so they would be more relaxed about it. 

I really don't think it has too much to do with populations.  I just don't feel comfortable using all this mideveil/fantasy jargon, and I'm sure that's the case for most people.  Also, from what I hear, RPers are very critical of people who are RPing wrong (i have no real experience because I've never RPed).  It would be much easier on RP noobs if they could just speak the way they always do. Just leave out the LuLz, etc and focus on the roleplay. 

Second Life is that mmo.

 

Sometimes for me the only good part of an MMO is the RP. Take LOTRO for example..

I tried SL.  My friend was bugging me to play for a long time, so I finally joined her.  I really couldn't get into the game because it ran horribly.  I actually created a skin for my avatar in photoshop, and that was fun. Creating anything else was either too complicated, or was simply a pain in the ass.  She showed me around to see everything I can do.  This consisted of going from place to place standing around and talking.  They brought me to some ninja/samurai map to show me "PvP" and that was probably the worst combat I have seen in a game.  Overall, I was pretty much bored out of my mind within a day, but gave it 2 weeks to see if I could actually like it.  Definitely not my cup of tea, and the only RPers I came across were having sex (it was pretty hilarious because you could hear them over the in game voice chat. damn that chick was dirty!). 

I can see how RP might be the only good thing, with all the crap coming out lately. 

Originally posted by Amaranthar

I think the kind of game has a lot to do with it. These current versions, what I call "run and gun", the quest grind, they actually have a game play that stops roleplay for the sake of grinding rapidly through "content". If a game can allow players to stop and smell the roses, and still be fun while not making players feel like they are "losing time", I think RP can be very good. If NPCs are given more AI, and seem to live instead of being pez dispensers, I think that would give the world a RP feel that can affect the players. There are many aspects, the little things, that can affect how players play a game, and affect RP.

The "run and gun" analogy applies more to the players than the game itself.  Ive always felt those rushing to level cap were passing by most of the game. EQ2 is an example of a game that can be played for months without worrying about leveling and of the games ive played it has, at least on the Antonia Bayle server, the best RP community of any. The Tolkien lore in LOTRO is taylor made for RP and again i didnt feel the need for fast leveling but then i never do. I remember making a freind on WOW that played for a year or more and only one toon ever got to 40 to get a mount, he enjoyed the lower levels enough to not feel the need to reach level cap.  I do agree with you on the little things being huge such as cosmetic armor, last names and my favorite is hooded cloaks, these things add more than most realize i think.

Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by AgentsAreGo 

A MMO with more open PvP would lend itself better to more open roleplaying because you also have the possibility of diplomatic scenarios and that whole waging war thing.

 

I agree with this, and at the same time, it's going to be a case of how much you can depend on the other guy to be willing to roleplay. Say two people encounter eachother in the wilderness of a free for all PvP game. Person A is a roleplayer while Person B is a strictly competitive PKer. It doesn't matter how much diplomacy Person A tries to initiate, because while he's typing out "Please, let's be reasonable. I am just a traveler in these lands, and I come in peace.", person B is busy wailing on him until he dies, teabags the corpse, /spits, takes the loot, and moves on to the next kill. Person A, after having experienced this over and over again, either decides to change his playstyle to match Person B in order to survive in the game, or he leaves the game. Either way, the roleplay erodes and the game turns into yet another glorified version of Battlefield: Whatever.

 

With respect to the thread topic, I don't think it's so much a case of population affecting RP quality, but how the game facilitates it. No PvP or sandbox play means that you can't really do much more than the IRC style of RP you mentioned, which is basically interactive, on-the-fly storytelling with no tangible effect in the game. A PvP sandbox, on the other hand, provides the ability for more meaningful RP, but attracts the more RP-unfriendly types. It's a bit of a paradox.

"I agree with this, and at the same time, it's going to be a case of how much you can depend on the other guy to be willing to roleplay. Say two people encounter eachother in the wilderness of a free for all PvP game. Person A is a roleplayer while Person B is a strictly competitive PKer. It doesn't matter how much diplomacy Person A tries to initiate, because while he's typing out "Please, let's be reasonable. I am just a traveler in these lands, and I come in peace.", person B is busy wailing on him until he dies, teabags the corpse, /spits, takes the loot, and moves on to the next kill. Person A, after having experienced this over and over again, either decides to change his playstyle to match Person B in order to survive in the game, or he leaves the game. Either way, the roleplay erodes and the game turns into yet another glorified version of Battlefield: Whatever"

That's one of the best ( and most accurate ) explanations for why RP'ing in a PvP set-up usually doesn't work......

Originally posted by Hammertime1

That's one of the best ( and most accurate ) explanations for why RP'ing in a PvP set-up usually doesn't work......

The fact is, you can never RP with people who are not interested in RPing and that applies in any situation.  For people, like most PvPers, who simply want to kill and be done with it, there's no point to even attempting to RP because you're not going to get anywhere, you'll just get yourself killed.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Hammertime1

That's one of the best ( and most accurate ) explanations for why RP'ing in a PvP set-up usually doesn't work......

The fact is, you can never RP with people who are not interested in RPing and that applies in any situation.  For people, like most PvPers, who simply want to kill and be done with it, there's no point to even attempting to RP because you're not going to get anywhere, you'll just get yourself killed.

Exactly, which makes the best potential games (free-for-all sandboxes) for RP the worst in terms of actually being able to do it. One of the bigger WTF!? moments I ever got in gaming was the first time I was called a nerd by someone IN A MMORPG because I tried to roleplay. I knew then that the genre was pretty well fucked. Now I play MMO's for PvE and treat them like gargantuan single player games. A part of me holds out hope for games like Mortal Online (and even Darkfall, before it became obvious that it was a steaming pile of shit), but invariably, I get disappointed that they become what the overwhelming majority makes of them-- Unreal Tournament with swords.

I feel that the topic question can be answered with a yes or no...

Yes.

UO had the least amount of players compared to most other games i've played and it had the most Roleplaying BY FAR of any game I've laid my hands / eyes on.

so short answer

Yes.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

I feel that the topic question can be answered with a yes or no...

Yes.

UO had the least amount of players compared to most other games i've played and it had the most Roleplaying BY FAR of any game I've laid my hands / eyes on.

so short answer

Yes.

I understand what you're saying, but I'd have to disagree with the idea that it was because of UO's population alone that made it RP-friendly. As the first real MMORPG, it didn't enter a market that was already mainstream. It was a RPG in a more pure sense of the word, and the people playing it were already RPG enthusiasts for the most part. There was still a divide among the genres-- FPS players usually didn't cross over, or when they did, it was because they also had an interest in RPGs. One doesn't have to strictly like a single genre exclusively, of course.

The difference between UO and all "modern" MMORPGs is the homogenization. Somewhere along the lines, some marketing genius thought it'd be a great idea to attract the market-dominating FPS fanbase by focusing more on player competitiveness rather than player interaction. As it stands, I think that there's no way a game could come out and be completely RP friendly unless the developers and marketers specifically appeal to those seeking a roleplaying environment. You won't see that happen, I'm afraid, because the ratio of PEWPEWPEW to roleplayers is probably 100:1. From a financial standpoint, do you try to get $15/month from 100 people, or $15/month from 1 person? The answer is pretty obvious.

What I'd like to see is a smaller studio get together and make a game that focuses on rp, and instead of charging 15/mo, charge 60/month, or whatever.  Use any extra money for real GMs that interact with players on a regular basis, generate real content on the fly, etc.

I pay that much or more keeping multiple subs open anyway  as I hop from title to title, looking in vain for something that is world first, game second.  I'd pay a premium fee for a true roleplaying game in a heartbeat.

It would be interesting to see if there were a market for an immersion-friendly game, as I bet there are enough gamers out there bored with the whack-a-mole / zerg model to make a game like that sustainable, if not successful.

Sadly, I think the best we can hope for at this point is stuff like Metaplace/Second Life, or private servers of games that feature rp-friendly mechanics, like UO or SWG.  The vast majority of people just aren't interested in anything but competitive violence.

From my experience.

No, How big a game is does not affect quality of roleplay at all.
you need to have about 10 active players for selfsustaining roleplay, you need about 25 to create long term conflict.
The more there are the easyer it gets.

The hard part in a populair game is "ignoring" all ooc and finding the type of players you want. (hardcore,medium fried or a light beer.) 
You always need to look out of those new players, new blood revives a rolepay comunity. just like the game it self, the roleplay game needs new people.

Rolepay does not depent on the game or its mechanics, the more mechanics and flavor the easyer it gets.
Hence why Lotro is fairly populair amoung roleplayers,  
SWG. now a small game is strong in roleplay deu to mechanics, we could already drop out lore..but whit the deathtroopers its a total joke ;)  ( thats a personal view)
Lotro is strong deu lore and visuals whit less mechanics then swg.
WoW  has no visuals (its getting old..)   , no mechanics worth to mention but its strong numbers makes that roleplay community strong.
The lore of WoW is also simple enoug to do just about anyting you like.

Quality of RP is kinda a personal thing, I like extreme immersive and lots of rules type of rp (la hardcore) others  are totaly freeform and drop a cat and vampire into the game.. quality of roleplay cant be messured then by our own standards.
 

As for the PVP discussion, Nope ,never,ever will it work the way its now. (anyways its just a tought.)
Im waiting for the game that says..ok..so some like pvp..some dont.. hmm wait a minute!....

*a dev is working hard*

There a New innovative super cool , super epic mechanic.

1:   We will make a mechanic that alouws players to enable there own character FFAPvP
  When they have activated the FFAPvP switch they can attack or be attackt  by other FFAPvP players.

2: If someone does not like Full FFAPvP but would like to engage in PvP they can Sent a PvP invite to a other player, do not cunfuze this   whit Duel, you read below why.

3: We will also enable a player to FFAPvP whit a single guild, the guild master or apointed guild player have to accept this invite.
  Guild vs guild FFAPvP will get the same mechanic were both guild master must accept the invite, this can not be done by apointed  players.

4:   Each time you enter in to a FFAPvP agrement whit someone or a group this will last a minium of one week, we will add a slider that lets  the parties add a longer period of time to a maxium of 30 days.

In effect this will enable the entire server to play out there conflics in the way they wish it to happen.
The full FFAPvP (read 1: ) will have its own ranking and PvP reward system to promote PvP.