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7/06/09 4:10:28 PM#21
Originally posted by Sixpax One of My Friends plays a Taru Taru PLD/WHM... Whats wrong with it? I think the main Problem is People getting the Idea that this Combo has 0.2 more DPS or healing So anything else is a Complete waste of time. I played a Taru Taru RDM/MNK. Was I the best? No But There wasent Mutch Diffrence in My Healing or Dps, Vs say a Whm or Blm Sub. But people Would Freek Out that I wasent one of those 2 Sub jobs. If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. |
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7/06/09 8:26:00 PM#22
Originally posted by Sixpax
Yea, just for grins I made a Mage/Rogue in RoM (pretty fun, not great for survivability). I also like the Elite Skills, it adds a new element to the game. Something I would like to see is dynamic skills that change according to what weapon and armor you have equipped. |
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7/07/09 5:55:31 AM#23
Originally posted by Ekibiogami One of My Friends plays a Taru Taru PLD/WHM... Whats wrong with it? I think the main Problem is People getting the Idea that this Combo has 0.2 more DPS or healing So anything else is a Complete waste of time. I played a Taru Taru RDM/MNK. Was I the best? No But There wasent Mutch Diffrence in My Healing or Dps, Vs say a Whm or Blm Sub. But people Would Freek Out that I wasent one of those 2 Sub jobs.
Well it's been awhile since I played FFXI, but at the time, PLD had to have WAR as a subjob for provoke or they couldn't hold aggro. MMO games would be pretty cool if it weren't for the people. |
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I think it's only natural that certain job combinations will be better than others. You can't really pick a BLM-WAR combination for example and expect it to work that well, unless any subjob will transform any class into something equally usefull. That would be pretty cool but difficult to pull off. |
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7/08/09 11:12:04 PM#25
Originally posted by Masa1 I can certainly imagine 24 man boss raid without movement. You say that "No movement" doesn't work in MMORPGs? Just look at Atlantica Online. Although each player controls 9 characters (and max 3 players allowed in team). It could be 1 character per player, since there's no technical limitation. So you saying "doesn't work" only means that you refuse to let go of movement during combat which is usually present in MMORPGs. It's no wonder that Atlantica Online is currently keeping the #2 spot. They did what Square Enix was afraid to do: a MMORPG which is actually different from the traditional MMORPG mass. So next time just say "I don't like such system" instead of saying that "it doesn't work", if you can't proof it.
Here's the deal. Having no movement in a game where you only have one character to concern yourself with doesn't work, because there is no way you can make the game compelling enough to fill the lack thereof.
Atlantica Online doesn't have movement - not because it's a great idea... but because you are controlling 9 CHArACTERS! And, no - having more characters doesn't mean you have a more interesting combat system than any other game. It just means that you have to manage the same combat mechanic 9 times, probably simultaneously.
Even older games that focussed on maintaining a group of at least five characters had character movement. How was this possible? This was only possible because they were Single Player RPG's, and you could pause the game at will, with no limitation. In fact, character movement and positioning was so important - the outcome of the battle(s) sometimes boiled down to who was where and when they were there.
The notion to not have movement in combat is just absurd. Even the Final Fantasy brand firgured this one out. It makes sense that a Rogue should stand BEHIND it's target. It makes sense that the Tank stands between the mob and the casters. It makes sense that everyone moves out of the way so that the Nuke can shoot off his AoE. It makes sense that anyone and everyone should move as much as possible.
The only time it would even be acceptable to not need movement in a game like this - is like in the case of Atlantica Online.... where you have to control at least more than 1 character's actions, and you don't have access to a pause button, or you otherwise have some sort of time limit to decide what you're going to do (which is why Final Fantasy games typically don't have movement, and is precisely the reason why FFXII could allow it - your other partty members were controlled by AI.)
In Atlantica Online, there is no movement, because you don't have time to move.... because you have other characters to maintain. And it's not a design decision made because it's "Fun and Engaging." It's a design decision made based of human limitiations. We don't have enough hands to maintain that much work - much less the typical human being doesn't possess the brain power to even accomplish such a task. But wait.... I forget... everyone on the internet is smarter than everyone else....
ADDITION:: I would also like to bring up a game that was a first for the FF series that highlighted the ability, function, various applications thereof, and the level of complexity it could bring to an RPG - Final Fantasy Tactics. Sure, you had many guys to move around. Sure, you had just as compelling combat mechanic as any other RPG or the time... but again, this was only possible because it was turn based, which is functionally the same as a pause system.
FURTHER ADDITION:: Another great example to how important movement is - Chess. The game is probably the best game in existence, and it utilizes nothing but - wait for it..... Movement. Where you put your peices effects everything. This is no different than in any other game that has any idea of battle strategy involved in it's gameplay. Real wars were won against impossible odds based on troop placement alone. To not have movement in your game is only acceptable when it the player is incapabale of performing the task of positioning, because of an overwhelming number of other gameplay systems. |
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7/08/09 11:21:58 PM#26
Originally posted by Sixpax
The only problem I have with your analgy is that in that basketball game - those players are there because that's what they get paid to do, or they have an obligation that over rules any ofther obligation. if I'm not getting paid to do something, or some other higher force or calling mandates my being there - then I don't have to be there. Much like a video game. I don't want to pay for the opportunity to wait for a group of people to come together. I also don't want to pay for the opportunity to play an online game - solo. What I want to pay for, is a game like you described - only I don't have to have the healer, if I don't want one or there isn't one available. I want to pay for the game where I have the game you are decribing, only I get to play with my friends, regardless of what classes we want to play. In other words, a group of 1 Warrior and 2 Theives should be just as capable to accomplish any task as well as a group of 1 Warrior, 1 Black Mage, and 1 White Mage. There should never ben the circumstance where 2 guys out of the group pick their favorite class, but the third HAS to play the Healer, because they have to have one. This was exactly the problem FFXI had. This is exactly the reason i stopped playing it. This is exactly why I DO NOT want FFXIV to behave any way like this. This is exactly the reason why I will not play an MMO where this sort of Holy Trinity concept exists. I don't like the idea of HAVING to play a class i don't like, because the game requires it to be there, anymore than I like the idea for someone else to be in the same position. |
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7/09/09 3:28:09 AM#27
Originally posted by Sixpax
Well it's been awhile since I played FFXI, but at the time, PLD had to have WAR as a subjob for provoke or they couldn't hold aggro.
As long as he could make the WHM understand to NOT heal him he was Ok. One or two heals from anyone and he was screwed... It did make it fun to play with him :) If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. |
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7/09/09 3:40:48 AM#28
Originally posted by Ekibiogami
Well it's been awhile since I played FFXI, but at the time, PLD had to have WAR as a subjob for provoke or they couldn't hold aggro.
As long as he could make the WHM understand to NOT heal him he was Ok. One or two heals from anyone and he was screwed... It did make it fun to play with him :)
You people have to keep in mind FFXI is a Group oriented MMO, you are not only playing on your time you are playing with other people's time. If you aren't optimized to the best of your ability and refuse to be the best at whatever job U chose......it's an insult to whoever you party with. RDM/MNK........sry we're full. |
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7/09/09 10:08:06 AM#29
Originally posted by WRyan
The only problem I have with your analgy is that in that basketball game - those players are there because that's what they get paid to do, or they have an obligation that over rules any ofther obligation. if I'm not getting paid to do something, or some other higher force or calling mandates my being there - then I don't have to be there. Much like a video game. I don't want to pay for the opportunity to wait for a group of people to come together. I also don't want to pay for the opportunity to play an online game - solo. What I want to pay for, is a game like you described - only I don't have to have the healer, if I don't want one or there isn't one available. I want to pay for the game where I have the game you are decribing, only I get to play with my friends, regardless of what classes we want to play. In other words, a group of 1 Warrior and 2 Theives should be just as capable to accomplish any task as well as a group of 1 Warrior, 1 Black Mage, and 1 White Mage. There should never ben the circumstance where 2 guys out of the group pick their favorite class, but the third HAS to play the Healer, because they have to have one. This was exactly the problem FFXI had. This is exactly the reason i stopped playing it. This is exactly why I DO NOT want FFXIV to behave any way like this. This is exactly the reason why I will not play an MMO where this sort of Holy Trinity concept exists. I don't like the idea of HAVING to play a class i don't like, because the game requires it to be there, anymore than I like the idea for someone else to be in the same position.
Actually, people pay to play in basketball leagues. Not professionally, just for fun. In addition people play 'street ball' games where the team that works together better is typically the team that wins. No money incentives there, just a desire to win playing something you enjoy. The same type of sentiment works in an MMO; granted it's not for everyone just like paying to play on sports teams isn't for everyone. I'm going to join the group of people that liked the team dynamic of FFXI and hope they find a way to improve it, not move away from it.
On the subject of grouping: I hope they move away from the carrot model of forcing groups (if you don't group you die) move to a carrot model. By a carrot model I mean grouping offers benefits over solo play. Benefits such as: - Skill chains making it easier to kill mobs faster. - Exp* chains and other bonuses that make it faster to advance in a group - Less downtime for groups (as a result of skill chains and class synergy that restores resources to other classes - be it TP or MP.) - Fluff only available to groups. (Items that look unique but provide no special bonus.) - Spectacular views you can only see if you're in a group. - Epic fights that aren't do-able solo - Better chances are rare loot for groups.
All of these things would require proximity - i.e. you couldn't group up with people spread all over the world and have each person get exp and loot bonusi.
* Might not be using EXP to advance characters. In that case a bonus to whatever system they use. |
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7/10/09 10:28:24 AM#30
Originally posted by WRyan
The only problem I have with your analgy is that in that basketball game - those players are there because that's what they get paid to do, or they have an obligation that over rules any ofther obligation. if I'm not getting paid to do something, or some other higher force or calling mandates my being there - then I don't have to be there. Much like a video game. I don't want to pay for the opportunity to wait for a group of people to come together. I also don't want to pay for the opportunity to play an online game - solo. What I want to pay for, is a game like you described - only I don't have to have the healer, if I don't want one or there isn't one available. I want to pay for the game where I have the game you are decribing, only I get to play with my friends, regardless of what classes we want to play. In other words, a group of 1 Warrior and 2 Theives should be just as capable to accomplish any task as well as a group of 1 Warrior, 1 Black Mage, and 1 White Mage. There should never ben the circumstance where 2 guys out of the group pick their favorite class, but the third HAS to play the Healer, because they have to have one. This was exactly the problem FFXI had. This is exactly the reason i stopped playing it. This is exactly why I DO NOT want FFXIV to behave any way like this. This is exactly the reason why I will not play an MMO where this sort of Holy Trinity concept exists. I don't like the idea of HAVING to play a class i don't like, because the game requires it to be there, anymore than I like the idea for someone else to be in the same position.
I don't think the issue is designing such a game, I think the issue is getting people to think "outside the box". When you have a group of all DPS having to kill lower level mobs but at a faster rate, they don't think in terms of XP per hour, they think in terms of XP per mob. If they're getting 100 XP per kill every 30 seconds vs. the typical tank/healer/DPS group that's getting 200 XP per kill every minute, they think it's less efficient, when it's an identical rate. I believe you actually can do what you want in FFXI, but trying to convince people to do it is a challenge. I remember right before I quit playing FFXI, the most efficient group I ever had was 2 WAR/NIN's, 3 other DPS, and a BRD/WHM, but we had to kill mostly T's instead higher stuff like all the other groups. The BRD would pull a mob to us and then go after the next one because as soon as the next mob got to the group the first one was dead. The BRD would touch up our health between pulls and the WAR/NIN's would just keep shadows up and alternate provokes. After we saw how well it worked, we didn't even bother looking for a WHM. MMO games would be pretty cool if it weren't for the people. |
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Originally posted by WRyan
Although I can see your point I don't think it's something that can be changed the way you want. Each class tends to have an advantage over other classes in at least one area. Therefore it's only natural a mixture of classes will form a stronger group. It's like a rugby match, you may have some players that are great in a scrum but the rest of their game is poor. If the entire team was made up of players who's only strong point was the scrum, you wouldn't expect them to do very well. That being said, certain situations don't always require a well balanced group. If you're taking on single mobs in a party with 6 dps classes, maybe you'll be able to take it down before anyone dies. I've played in groups without a healer before, it often just requires abit more of a strategic approach. Another thing to remember is you don't HAVE to play a class you don't like. If you always play with the same group of friends it might be more ideal if you had a balanced group but there are always ways to compromise. |
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HavenAE2035
Novice Member
Joined: 7/04/09
"Nothing can not not exist as it exists as something even if abstractly" |
7/10/09 8:58:22 PM#32
Originally posted by Rogue_Leader
Actually, people pay to play in basketball leagues. Not professionally, just for fun. In addition people play 'street ball' games where the team that works together better is typically the team that wins. No money incentives there, just a desire to win playing something you enjoy. The same type of sentiment works in an MMO; granted it's not for everyone just like paying to play on sports teams isn't for everyone. I'm going to join the group of people that liked the team dynamic of FFXI and hope they find a way to improve it, not move away from it.
On the subject of grouping: I hope they move away from the carrot model of forcing groups (if you don't group you die) move to a carrot model. By a carrot model I mean grouping offers benefits over solo play. Benefits such as: - Skill chains making it easier to kill mobs faster. - Exp* chains and other bonuses that make it faster to advance in a group - Less downtime for groups (as a result of skill chains and class synergy that restores resources to other classes - be it TP or MP.) - Fluff only available to groups. (Items that look unique but provide no special bonus.) - Spectacular views you can only see if you're in a group. - Epic fights that aren't do-able solo - Better chances are rare loot for groups.
All of these things would require proximity - i.e. you couldn't group up with people spread all over the world and have each person get exp and loot bonusi.
* Might not be using EXP to advance characters. In that case a bonus to whatever system they use.
You're on the right track. There should be incentives to grouping. One MMo I've played (cant remember which) had a system where being in a grp the grp had an expereince system where the actual group concept leveled the longer the group stayed together and killed mobs. The higher the group level the more exp bonus and chance of loot drops was increased I think plus I believe the group recieved buffs as level increased.. Was a very innovative system. FFXIV should do something like this and make the rewards ultimately superior to soloing. |
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Wizardry
 Hard Core Member
Joined: 8/27/04
Remove quests,bosses and trigger them back in is called Dynamic events now?lol..i think not. |
7/10/09 10:23:37 PM#33
Originally posted by NightThing I want them to improve the mechanics such as for one the Magic Bursts.I was bummed out to see how most players watered down the game by totally ignoring skillchains and MB's.Square needs to get that back into the game. The biggest part for me is i do NOT want to see any more favorites in job design.The RDM in FFXI was ridiculously favored,it had more tools to play with than pretty much 3 other jobs put together.The Paladin was one class that was bigtime frowned on,the ygave that job virtually nothing as compared to the RDM.I believe their is people inside,be it family members or staff friends that are cohercing decisions made in their games.I just want to see something that looks obviously fair,even if there is a slight advantage or one class gets a little more,i just want to see the effort to keep it fair across the board.RDM...WHM...BLUE all were given ridiculous better tools to work with. One thing for sure this game will need is more leveling options.Every new game has overcrowded areas,that creates chaos in a game,players do not want or like to spend hours of their day wandering all over hells acres looking for a leveling spot,because all two fo them have been taken.I would like to see more effort in designing leveling spots,so some maybe slightly better but more risk or some might need a certain job to work that area,but deffinitely we need viable options for all party setups. One other biggie tha treally miffed me in FFXi was the ridiculous weapon damage variances.It shoudl be cut and dry,the larger weapons cause more damage then down the scale from there.There could also be better forms of damage based on the mob such as taking the piercing/slashing a lot further,it was basically unoticed in FFXI. http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w |
