Originally posted by Scottc

Are you honestly telling me that you enjoyed failing repeatedly in I Wanna Be The Guy, and never became frustrated at all at the experience?

No.

I enjoyed beating it after several tries, which most players nowadays wouldn't like. Frustration just makes it all that much sweeter when I finally clear the stage. Just as you said, but it's irrelevant to my actual point you're not getting.

Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Unibrow

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Anything in life is a grind, but it's just whether or not that grind is FUN.  If the grind is fun, then it doesn't really feel like a grind at all though it might be repetitive.

 

 /agree. I'll also agree with the point that the journey has been forgotten, only the end. I've played a lot of MMOs, and (to use a well known game) WoW was pretty boring for me leveling up. I couldn't find a group for ANYthing because if anybody wanted to run a low level dungeon, they had a level 70 run them through it. I soloed all the way up. I thought to myself the whole time, "Why am I paying 15$ a month for a single player game!?" I also told myself that when I hit max level, the REAL game would begin. To a point I was correct, but then I found myself grinding in groups! Yay!

What can cut down on the "grinding", you ask? Well, make the journey fun and interesting! Make it so when I walk into a town, it randomly bursts into flames because dragons are attacking it! Make it so when I'm flying my fighter into a station to dock, it gets attacked by pirates! Write a story for me that I feel compelled to read and feel like a part of, not "Please go and kill 10 rats in my farm." Hell, most of the stories from 70 to 80 in WoW were very good stories and very compelling, and it finally felt GOOD to read the quest text rather than a chore! Give me immersion, and I'll use those same buttons all day long to fight enemies! Give me nothing but my buttons, and it quickly wastes to nothing.

 

While I agree that good story is fun, and keeps me playing, and is lacking in most of our new mmo's I think the real compelling factor, that makes a mmo good, makes the grind fun.......is a good comunity.

 

I think when its all said and done we can all agree that a good comunity is 70% of the "fun" but the big million dollar question, s how can the devs make a game that promotes a "good comunity"? sugestions?

You can't. No matter how much you try to inspire the general good of people, there's always going to be someone to come along and take a big fat dump on it. The only kind of control that can reasonably be put in place are things like rulesets for RP. No l33tspeak names, must always be in character in chat channels, etc. Stuff that comes with a heavy banhammer to exert a little conditioning for the greater good of the community. Other than that, you have to rely on the general game populace. I might be a little more cynical than the average person, but in all my years dealing with people (and I'm no kid by any stretch of the imagination) the one thing you can rely on is someone fucking up the works. It doesn't take very many, either. Coupled with too much of a laissez-faire attitude with the game administrators, all it takes is a handful of douchenuggets to make paying subscribers go "I'm not paying for this shit" and drop out.

 

Unfortunatly, people suck.

Well I agree that people suck, but at the same time I do think there are things that Devs can do.

once again i'll use FFXI as an example

Slow leveling through zones (generaly speaking you would play with the same people night 2 night, sure it varied a little, but for the most part you'd meet someone and see them again.

Slow crafting (This one maybe not so much, but I do think it helps. Because you arn't able to leve 4 alts all with capped crafts. you have to depend on the auction house. and other players.

PL (power leveling, I think this helps because if a new person starts playing, if the have a current friend they are more likly to catch up)

Larger level "clusters" this one is kinda hard to explain, But it WOW if you are more then 3 levels ahead or behind someone its just dumb for you to play with them, whereas in FFXI you can be 5 levels apart and still do decently. Now this does a couple of things.

1. you spend more time with farmilar faces

2. easier to find groups (less frustration)

3. easier to level/play with RL friends.

Resons to level in groups, in the case of FFXI it was a group orentated game, when in a group you leveled faster and got XP chains and what-not, More reson to group in a game people will be nicer.

Heavier death penaltys (sp?) if it is going to cost you 20% of your overall XP when you die. then you'll sit there as long as possible to get a raise, and while you may not see why this helps with the comunity.....I think it does. It brings them closer togeather, people are more likly to get a raise if they havn't been a jackss for the last hour in the zone.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So while this may not fix things 100% I do think it'd make a big diffrence.

(sorry about the spelling)

Originally posted by Dewm

 

Well I agree that people suck, but at the same time I do think there are things that Devs can do.

once again i'll use FFXI as an example

Slow leveling through zones (generaly speaking you would play with the same people night 2 night, sure it varied a little, but for the most part you'd meet someone and see them again.

Slow crafting (This one maybe not so much, but I do think it helps. Because you arn't able to leve 4 alts all with capped crafts. you have to depend on the auction house. and other players.

PL (power leveling, I think this helps because if a new person starts playing, if the have a current friend they are more likly to catch up)

 

Larger level "clusters" this one is kinda hard to explain, But it WOW if you are more then 3 levels ahead or behind someone its just dumb for you to play with them, whereas in FFXI you can be 5 levels apart and still do decently. Now this does a couple of things.

1. you spend more time with farmilar faces

2. easier to find groups (less frustration)

3. easier to level/play with RL friends.

 

Resons to level in groups, in the case of FFXI it was a group orentated game, when in a group you leveled faster and got XP chains and what-not, More reson to group in a game people will be nicer.

 

Heavier death penaltys (sp?) if it is going to cost you 20% of your overall XP when you die. then you'll sit there as long as possible to get a raise, and while you may not see why this helps with the comunity.....I think it does. It brings them closer togeather, people are more likly to get a raise if they havn't been a jackss for the last hour in the zone.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So while this may not fix things 100% I do think it'd make a big diffrence.

 

(sorry about the spelling)

 I remember the nightly group spawn camping in DAOC.  Was it fun when I was single and could play every night?  I guess, but there was no such thing as viable soloing at the time.  Would I want to do the forced group thing again?  Hell NO!!!! and neither would every other married person I know who USED TO tolerate that sort of play=)  Like FFXI it was just a loooooooooooooooooooooooong grind, killing the same stupid mobs in maybe a slightly different spot or the exact same spot for an entire week.  That gameplay just won't fly in any large portion outside asian markets.  It had one benefit and that was FORCING people to be nice, since if you weren't nice you weren't advancing.  The negatives were obvious...linear, restricted gameplay requiring hours of uninterrupted play sessions only conducive to hardcore play. 

Its all about the speed of advancement.  Its just not tolerable anymore to see something new once every few weeks if your'e lucky.  The simple pleasure of a number dinging is not FUN anymore for most people.  A MMO needs a lot more than that.  Almost every play session needs some form of REAL advancement.  New gear, a new spell, a new story, a new acehivement, a new zone to explore, ect.  In FFXI, you wouldn't see new abilities or new areas for weeks sometimes, because it all moved so slow.  Some people like that.  Most don't.  Slowing don't advancement and more restircted forced gameplay styles are not the answer.  it just leads to a bigger grind.  Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for.

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Dewm

 

Well I agree that people suck, but at the same time I do think there are things that Devs can do.

once again i'll use FFXI as an example

Slow leveling through zones (generaly speaking you would play with the same people night 2 night, sure it varied a little, but for the most part you'd meet someone and see them again.

Slow crafting (This one maybe not so much, but I do think it helps. Because you arn't able to leve 4 alts all with capped crafts. you have to depend on the auction house. and other players.

PL (power leveling, I think this helps because if a new person starts playing, if the have a current friend they are more likly to catch up)

 

Larger level "clusters" this one is kinda hard to explain, But it WOW if you are more then 3 levels ahead or behind someone its just dumb for you to play with them, whereas in FFXI you can be 5 levels apart and still do decently. Now this does a couple of things.

1. you spend more time with farmilar faces

2. easier to find groups (less frustration)

3. easier to level/play with RL friends.

 

Resons to level in groups, in the case of FFXI it was a group orentated game, when in a group you leveled faster and got XP chains and what-not, More reson to group in a game people will be nicer.

 

Heavier death penaltys (sp?) if it is going to cost you 20% of your overall XP when you die. then you'll sit there as long as possible to get a raise, and while you may not see why this helps with the comunity.....I think it does. It brings them closer togeather, people are more likly to get a raise if they havn't been a jackss for the last hour in the zone.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So while this may not fix things 100% I do think it'd make a big diffrence.

 

(sorry about the spelling)

 

 I remember the nightly group spawn camping in DAOC.  Was it fun when I was single and could play every night?  I guess, but there was no such thing as viable soloing at the time.  Would I want to do the forced group thing again?  Hell NO!!!! and neither would every other married person I know who USED TO tolerate that sort of play=)  Like FFXI it was just a loooooooooooooooooooooooong grind, killing the same stupid mobs in maybe a slightly different spot or the exact same spot for an entire week.  That gameplay just won't fly in any large portion outside asian markets.  It had one benefit and that was FORCING people to be nice, since if you weren't nice you weren't advancing.  The negatives were obvious...linear, restricted gameplay requiring hours of uninterrupted play sessions only conducive to hardcore play. 

Its all about the speed of advancement.  Its just not tolerable anymore to see something new once every few weeks if your'e lucky.  The simple pleasure of a number dinging is not FUN anymore for most people.  A MMO needs a lot more than that.  Almost every play session needs some form of REAL advancement.  New gear, a new spell, a new story, a new acehivement, a new zone to explore, ect.  In FFXI, you wouldn't see new abilities or new areas for weeks sometimes, because it all moved so slow.  Some people like that.  Most don't.  Slowing don't advancement and more restircted forced gameplay styles are not the answer.  it just leads to a bigger grind.  Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for.

I would dissagree with you on almost every point. First off, I am married and I do have time to play MMO's (2-4 hours a night) I do worka  full time job, no I dont' have kids. no my wife doesn't play mmo's.

As far as the whole "time" agrument, it comes down to how much time you WANT to put into a game. And if you don't want to put more then a hour in a night. DON"T PLAY A MMO!!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second, I think that the market that was out there for longer grinding games is still out there, its just harder to see because it been engulfed by the mass WoW market. Where people are to lasy to do crap for themselfs.

and that last part "Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for." I know this. That is why they are all trying WoW "clones" or EQ clones...whatever you want. That is why we are getting the same garbage over and over. you sir...are the problem. (well you and about 9million other people like you)

And honestly, I would rather play a slow paced game, where I only advance or get new skills ever week. then play a game where its a single player game and you have to put up with a ton of jckss. *cough*WoW*cough*

It's a simple solution that most of these devs probably can't do.  Create an MMO without levels, without gear for stats, then concentrate on making the game ALL ABOUT FUN.  The reason why all MMOs have a grind is because every dev decides to put levels in, gear upgrades, stupid mobs that only get stronger through stats, rep/fame, etc.  How can a game not be a grind when 90% of the content is to kill a million animals that are almost identical, asside from appearance? 

I wouldn't mind if there were levels and all the other crap that adds to the grind if the whole game was fun.  Right now, most of the fun is at end game, so everyone rushes (including me) to max level.  IMO there is no fun to be had while leveling (aside from the first or 2nd time).  If you've done it in one MMO, it's not much different in the next. 

Originally posted by bleyzwun

It's a simple solution that most of these devs probably can't do.  Create an MMO without levels, without gear for stats, then concentrate on making the game ALL ABOUT FUN.  The reason why all MMOs have a grind is because every dev decides to put levels in, gear upgrades, stupid mobs that only get stronger through stats, rep/fame, etc.  How can a game not be a grind when 90% of the content is to kill a million animals that are almost identical, asside from appearance? 

I wouldn't mind if there were levels and all the other crap that adds to the grind if the whole game was fun.  Right now, most of the fun is at end game, so everyone rushes (including me) to max level.  IMO there is no fun to be had while leveling (aside from the first or 2nd time).  If you've done it in one MMO, it's not much different in the next. 

 

I would agree with you on this point, I like leveling, I like getting new skills and abilitys, I like grinding. But if its no fun its no fun. And I think that is part of the problem, the Devs make this really long game to "keep" people playing longer, and then are like...wait we need an incentive for them to level, so they make  a decent endgame, but forget to make the middle part fun also.

Honestly I would be VERY VERY happy with a game that was just like FFXI, but with updated graphics, a larger crafting system...and a few other things to do.

This might be a little off topic, but it's something I've wondered about quite a bit. Developers put way too much into endgame additions when so much could be added to the beginning and middle of the game. Once again, using WoW as an example, they may add a new raid instance with every major content patch, or several with new expansions, but if you want to start a new character, you're basically playing the same exact game from 2004. Sure, TBC added the new races and starting areas, but why no love for the originals? I bet that if new levelling content were added to Elwynn Forest or Tirisfal Glades, for example, the longevity would increase because the replayability would be enhanced. Even after TBC, once I gained level 15 or so in the Blood Elf starting zones, it was back out into the main gameworld, playing the same 15-60 content as everyone else has been playing since release.

The game world is huge. There's so much that could be added to keep the middle game interesting.

Originally posted by bleyzwun

It's a simple solution that most of these devs probably can't do.  Create an MMO without levels, without gear for stats, then concentrate on making the game ALL ABOUT FUN.  The reason why all MMOs have a grind is because every dev decides to put levels in, gear upgrades, stupid mobs that only get stronger through stats, rep/fame, etc.  How can a game not be a grind when 90% of the content is to kill a million animals that are almost identical, asside from appearance? 

I wouldn't mind if there were levels and all the other crap that adds to the grind if the whole game was fun.  Right now, most of the fun is at end game, so everyone rushes (including me) to max level.  IMO there is no fun to be had while leveling (aside from the first or 2nd time).  If you've done it in one MMO, it's not much different in the next. 

 

Why is only the end game fun? What is fun for you?

Originally posted by jonrd463

This might be a little off topic, but it's something I've wondered about quite a bit. Developers put way too much into endgame additions when so much could be added to the beginning and middle of the game. Once again, using WoW as an example, they may add a new raid instance with every major content patch, or several with new expansions, but if you want to start a new character, you're basically playing the same exact game from 2004. Sure, TBC added the new races and starting areas, but why no love for the originals? I bet that if new levelling content were added to Elwynn Forest or Tirisfal Glades, for example, the longevity would increase because the replayability would be enhanced. Even after TBC, once I gained level 15 or so in the Blood Elf starting zones, it was back out into the main gameworld, playing the same 15-60 content as everyone else has been playing since release.

 

The game world is huge. There's so much that could be added to keep the middle game interesting.

Its been awhile since I played WoW. Do they have a 50/51server?

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Dewm

 

Well I agree that people suck, but at the same time I do think there are things that Devs can do.

once again i'll use FFXI as an example

Slow leveling through zones (generaly speaking you would play with the same people night 2 night, sure it varied a little, but for the most part you'd meet someone and see them again.

Slow crafting (This one maybe not so much, but I do think it helps. Because you arn't able to leve 4 alts all with capped crafts. you have to depend on the auction house. and other players.

PL (power leveling, I think this helps because if a new person starts playing, if the have a current friend they are more likly to catch up)

 

Larger level "clusters" this one is kinda hard to explain, But it WOW if you are more then 3 levels ahead or behind someone its just dumb for you to play with them, whereas in FFXI you can be 5 levels apart and still do decently. Now this does a couple of things.

1. you spend more time with farmilar faces

2. easier to find groups (less frustration)

3. easier to level/play with RL friends.

 

Resons to level in groups, in the case of FFXI it was a group orentated game, when in a group you leveled faster and got XP chains and what-not, More reson to group in a game people will be nicer.

 

Heavier death penaltys (sp?) if it is going to cost you 20% of your overall XP when you die. then you'll sit there as long as possible to get a raise, and while you may not see why this helps with the comunity.....I think it does. It brings them closer togeather, people are more likly to get a raise if they havn't been a jackss for the last hour in the zone.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So while this may not fix things 100% I do think it'd make a big diffrence.

 

(sorry about the spelling)

 

 I remember the nightly group spawn camping in DAOC.  Was it fun when I was single and could play every night?  I guess, but there was no such thing as viable soloing at the time.  Would I want to do the forced group thing again?  Hell NO!!!! and neither would every other married person I know who USED TO tolerate that sort of play=)  Like FFXI it was just a loooooooooooooooooooooooong grind, killing the same stupid mobs in maybe a slightly different spot or the exact same spot for an entire week.  That gameplay just won't fly in any large portion outside asian markets.  It had one benefit and that was FORCING people to be nice, since if you weren't nice you weren't advancing.  The negatives were obvious...linear, restricted gameplay requiring hours of uninterrupted play sessions only conducive to hardcore play. 

Its all about the speed of advancement.  Its just not tolerable anymore to see something new once every few weeks if your'e lucky.  The simple pleasure of a number dinging is not FUN anymore for most people.  A MMO needs a lot more than that.  Almost every play session needs some form of REAL advancement.  New gear, a new spell, a new story, a new acehivement, a new zone to explore, ect.  In FFXI, you wouldn't see new abilities or new areas for weeks sometimes, because it all moved so slow.  Some people like that.  Most don't.  Slowing don't advancement and more restircted forced gameplay styles are not the answer.  it just leads to a bigger grind.  Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for.

 

I would dissagree with you on almost every point. First off, I am married and I do have time to play MMO's (2-4 hours a night) I do worka  full time job, no I dont' have kids. no my wife doesn't play mmo's.

As far as the whole "time" agrument, it comes down to how much time you WANT to put into a game. And if you don't want to put more then a hour in a night. DON"T PLAY A MMO!!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second, I think that the market that was out there for longer grinding games is still out there, its just harder to see because it been engulfed by the mass WoW market. Where people are to lasy to do crap for themselfs.

and that last part "Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for." I know this. That is why they are all trying WoW "clones" or EQ clones...whatever you want. That is why we are getting the same garbage over and over. you sir...are the problem. (well you and about 9million other people like you)

 

And honestly, I would rather play a slow paced game, where I only advance or get new skills ever week. then play a game where its a single player game and you have to put up with a ton of jckss. *cough*WoW*cough*

It doesn't really help your arguments if you tell people MMOs aren't for them if they don't have enormous time investments to put toward them.  People want to have fun when they play, regardless of how much time they have, and when the actual gameplay isn't fun and all they have to look forward to are the milestones and rewards, with an hour of play time a day, they aren't going to reach a milestone or reward for days or even weeks depending on the MMO.  Also you have to remember that the original popular MMOs like Asheron's Call and Ultima Online didn't require excessive amounts of time in order to reach a reward or have fun.  Both had challenging gameplay that was thoroughly enjoyable, rather than just time consuming.

Originally posted by fansede

Why is only the end game fun? What is fun for you?

I'll be honest, the end game bores the hell out of me.  Every character I ever have that hits max level retires.  I'll start a new character and my maxed toon exists only to help buff others, etc.  I don't raid, I don't gear grind, I don't PvP, I don't give a damn.  That's all pointless crap.

It's the adventure that matters, the journey to the top.  Once you're there, what's the point?

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by fansede

Why is only the end game fun? What is fun for you?

 

I'll be honest, the end game bores the hell out of me.  Every character I ever have that hits max level retires.  I'll start a new character and my maxed toon exists only to help buff others, etc.  I don't raid, I don't gear grind, I don't PvP, I don't give a damn.  That's all pointless crap.

It's the adventure that matters, the journey to the top.  Once you're there, what's the point?

I agree! The grind is the best part of the game and if I can cap out in lvl with only playing 6 months then its a week grind and I will move on. The only game to keep me for over 6 months atm is L2 and most know that is the biggest grind game around. I only hope Aion is the same or more of a grind. Furthermore the harder the grind the more proud you are of your lvl. In EQ2 it was so easy so everyone is capped out and raiding but in Lineage2 there are only a hand full of lvl 85's per server and they are Gods in compairison to most. The Grind makes the game and the more enjoyable the grind is the better the game is in my opinion.

Originally posted by arenasb

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Soooo wrong on soo many levels

 

How is he wrong?

MMO's are grinds. Single player games have an end, you stop playing them. MMO's in theory have no end, how do you make the game have no end without repetitive play (grinds)? I haven't played one MMO that hasn't been like this, at least pve wise. PVP end games are repetitive in their own ways as well.

yeah I equate mmorpg's to grindfests even the simplest of them have "grind".  I dont see how you can escape it unless they just hand you engame and all the equipment and money you need   /shrug

Originally posted by ummax

yeah I equate mmorpg's to grindfests even the simplest of them have "grind".  I dont see how you can escape it unless they just hand you engame and all the equipment and money you need   /shrug

Or entirely remove the end game entirely so that people stop and enjoy the journey rather than rush to the "finish line".  If there is no goal, there's no reason to hurry up and get there.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by ummax

yeah I equate mmorpg's to grindfests even the simplest of them have "grind".  I dont see how you can escape it unless they just hand you engame and all the equipment and money you need   /shrug

Or entirely remove the end game entirely so that people stop and enjoy the journey rather than rush to the "finish line".  If there is no goal, there's no reason to hurry up and get there.

that would mean having everything the minute you log in otherwise there is an endgame (where you want to call it one or not its there) every mmorpg has one even the so called "sandboxes" they all have one.    Everything has a purpose if there is not one built in place then people make a purpose and work towards it.    You can't stop endgame its a product of simply playing.   Even if there is not a linear quest line you get to the end of what exists in the game have done and seen it all and then your at the wall.   There is still grind there though no matter what system in place there is always a grind no matter how hard people try to disguise it its there just like "endgame" its there to great you :)

---

Originally posted by jonrd463
 
This might be a little off topic, but it's something I've wondered about quite a bit. Developers put way too much into endgame additions when so much could be added to the beginning and middle of the game. Once again, using WoW as an example, they may add a new raid instance with every major content patch, or several with new expansions, but if you want to start a new character, you're basically playing the same exact game from 2004. Sure, TBC added the new races and starting areas, but why no love for the originals? I bet that if new levelling content were added to Elwynn Forest or Tirisfal Glades, for example, the longevity would increase because the replayability would be enhanced. Even after TBC, once I gained level 15 or so in the Blood Elf starting zones, it was back out into the main gameworld, playing the same 15-60 content as everyone else has been playing since release.
 
The game world is huge. There's so much that could be added to keep the middle game interesting.

---

---

Originally posted by Cephus404
 
Originally posted by fansede
Why is only the end game fun? What is fun for you?
 
 
I'll be honest, the end game bores the hell out of me. Every character I ever have that hits max level retires. I'll start a new character and my maxed toon exists only to help buff others, etc. I don't raid, I don't gear grind, I don't PvP, I don't give a damn. That's all pointless crap.
It's the adventure that matters, the journey to the top. Once you're there, what's the point?
 

---

Yep... Unfortunately in most games the adventure is neglected and quite boring and lacks any semblance of a challenge. The only thing you have to look forward to are the artificial rewards and milestones.
 

Originally posted by Scottc

But the money is in the majority who are at level 80 or whatever the cap happens to be, and they want to keep those guys playing the game.

Ah, but more mid-level content would provide incentive for that majority to roll up a new character and level through the new content. I've got a capped toon, and I would jump at the chance to be able to play a new character in order to experience new content. I don't raid or anything like that. I'm pretty much like the person above who said he retires his characters at level max. My style is to try to play each of the available races and classes until I get to max level, and then start over. After about the fourth or fifth time through the same content in WoW, the experience became less of an adventure and more of a chore.

Originally posted by ummaxx

that would mean having everything the minute you log in otherwise there is an endgame (where you want to call it one or not its there) every mmorpg has one even the so called "sandboxes" they all have one.    Everything has a purpose if there is not one built in place then people make a purpose and work towards it.    You can't stop endgame its a product of simply playing.   Even if there is not a linear quest line you get to the end of what exists in the game have done and seen it all and then your at the wall.   There is still grind there though no matter what system in place there is always a grind no matter how hard people try to disguise it its there just like "endgame" its there to great you :)

No, it just means that the whole point of playing can't be progression and that's really all MMOs are these days.  If there are no levels, or if the levels aren't just a gauge of how much stuff you've got, then there is no endgame because anyone *CAN* achieve things without having to follow the progression grind.  That means that crafters can get very good at their crafting without ever having to heft a sword and kill boars.  However, all games are very combat-centric, to the point where if you don't engage in endless combat, often for very ill-defined reasons, you don't get anywhere.

Even sandbox games tend to fall into this trap where the only way to get anywhere, especially if you want to get anywhere fast, is to go out and kill something.

Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by Scottc

But the money is in the majority who are at level 80 or whatever the cap happens to be, and they want to keep those guys playing the game.

 

Ah, but more mid-level content would provide incentive for that majority to roll up a new character and level through the new content. I've got a capped toon, and I would jump at the chance to be able to play a new character in order to experience new content. I don't raid or anything like that. I'm pretty much like the person above who said he retires his characters at level max. My style is to try to play each of the available races and classes until I get to max level, and then start over. After about the fourth or fifth time through the same content in WoW, the experience became less of an adventure and more of a chore.

Ah but most people who play WoW style games are attached to their character and they want to push it on rather than go through the low level grind, because they think the "end game" is where the only content worth doing is at.

Originally posted by Scottc

Edit: Oh, you wanted examples of how to prevent an MMO from being a grindfest?  Ok.  I can just tell you about UO and Asheron's Call.  UO was a sandbox, it allowed the players to do many different things, and it relied on them to provide the content, they created wars, cities (loose collections of houses :P), trade, events, politics.  This gave the players something to do, and the developer had to introduce very little.

Actually in UO you did have to raise skills like Int, animal taming, etc...etc.. and other items if my memory serves me right you could learn 3 without it taking away from another.  For example in animal taming which I was able to tame a dragon you had to start at lower level animals and work your way up so then this would be called a grind.  

I never played Asheron's call so I am not sure how you leveled or got xp.