So i've been reading the forums as of late, and i've noticed quite a few people say things like "Korean grindfest" or its just a "grindfest"

And in one case someone said that MMOs being a grindfest "That's just a norm created by first mmorpgs, you don't have to include that into mmorpgs"

So I guess my question for those of you who think that MMO's can be anything but a grindfest, I want to know. HOW....i've asked in a million times. How do you keep MMORPG's from being a grindfest, i'd like some examples.

I dunno its kinda like the whole "WoW clone" thing...its starting to get on my nerves. I've play'd MMO's for a long time, and they are supposed to be "grindfest" they are supposed to be a time sink. you are supposed to spend a long time playing it!!!

These people that get on and are like "I can only play for a hour a day, and I wanna level as fast as someone who play's 14 hours a day. and i'm tired of these grindfest. cry cry cry, startin to drive me nuts.

It'd be like if I started playing Halo alot and then complained because I had to use guns, or whatever...

meh. go ahead flame me, but you all know its true.

Soooo wrong on soo many levels

 I think taking the grind away is next to impossible right now, but you can make the grind interesting.. so it wouldn't even matter that there is grind.

Right now it's not interesting so it sucks. quest>quest>quest and race to the top, it's just a hindrance, which is wrong!

The first MMORPG to gain massive popularity was UO, it was not a grindfest.   The second set of MMOs were Asheron's Call and Everquest.  Asheron's Call did not require extensive grind to compete with other players or complete content, it had quality content that was added every month as well.  Everquest had very little content and was set up in such a way that it abused basic human nature and caused people to get addicted by conditioning them to grind longer and longer for a desired item or level.  The only part people enjoyed of the game was receiving a reward, and that reward would constantly get further and further away requiring more grind.  Eventually people got to a point where they had a substantial time investment and didn't want to just throw it all away, making it harder to quit.  This kind of MMORPG keeps people paying while the company that's making it can add minimal content that doesn't even have to be good, and even though the players don't know it, they are addicted and in search of that next reward, they don't care how terrible the content is, or they don't mind the fact that they're constantly repeating the same content in hopes of that reward.

So basically the grind MMO allows the developer to be lazy and introduce minimal content, it's easy, and it has proven to hold players even when the developer makes major mistakes.

Edit: Oh, you wanted examples of how to prevent an MMO from being a grindfest?  Ok.  I can just tell you about UO and Asheron's Call.  UO was a sandbox, it allowed the players to do many different things, and it relied on them to provide the content, they created wars, cities (loose collections of houses :P), trade, events, politics.  This gave the players something to do, and the developer had to introduce very little.

Asheron's Call had an extremely mild grind, the way it avoided a heavy grind was quite simple really.  You had a series of skills, and I'll use the magic ones as an example.  With war magic, as your skill raised, the success of casting higher level magic would increase.  I believe it was 100 war magic for a 100% success rate at level 2 spells, 150 for level 3, 200 for level 4, 250 for level 5, 270 for level 6, and about 300 for level 7.  You could have 300 buffed war magic at level 30 or 40 easily.  The max level was 126, but a level 30 or 40 could still take on that 126 and kill him since he could cast the top level spells as well.  That level 126 would still have the bonus of more health, and a higher chance to resist your spells though (provided he had spent a lot of experience on his magic resist skill).  What helped was the fact that you could dodge the spells as they were coming in, allowing a good low level player to kill off terrible high levels.  Also, you gained bigger bonuses with lower skill levels, but as the skill got higher it got prohibitively expensive and provided diminishing returns, so you could continue character building after you were at a point you wanted to be, but you could still build your character and gain a little bit more of a bonus.

Also, items weren't tiered, and there was randomly generated armor pieces in loot, so you spent a lot of time on customization, rather than grinding your level up or grinding for the next tier of weapons/armor.  The "end game" content was not huge raid bosses like most modern MMORPGs (a modern MMORPG is an online JRPG), but instead, there were huge server wide story events that advanced the story in real time and drew the players into the action.  Everyone could participate in this, regardless of level.  You can read more about those here: http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/Azure, that blog post is a great read by the way.

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Soooo wrong on soo many levels

See this is what I mean, I can't get anyone to give me good points. they just say "you are wrong." .....why am I wrong? give me an example. What would YOU do to make it so its not a long/boring grind? Come on your smart. lets see it.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Soooo wrong on soo many levels

 

See this is what I mean, I can't get anyone to give me good points. they just say "you are wrong." .....why am I wrong? give me an example. What would YOU do to make it so its not a long/boring grind? Come on your smart. lets see it.

Already been answered, so many players out there have been blinded by WOW, well here's a big surprise.. there were games out there long before WOW and they weren't grindfests, they focused on fun, social interaction and adventures and not XP.

As for the solution, take out the levels and XP and play for the sake of playing rather than achieving.

Originally posted by Scottc

The first MMORPG to gain massive popularity was UO, it was not a grindfest.   The second set of MMOs were Asheron's Call and Everquest.  Asheron's Call did not require extensive grind to compete with other players or complete content, it had quality content that was added every month as well.  Everquest had very little content and was set up in such a way that it abused basic human nature and caused people to get addicted by conditioning them to grind longer and longer for a desired item or level.  The only part people enjoyed of the game was receiving a reward, and that reward would constantly get further and further away requiring more grind.  Eventually people got to a point where they had a substantial time investment and didn't want to just throw it all away, making it harder to quit.  This kind of MMORPG keeps people paying while the company that's making it can add minimal content that doesn't even have to be good, and even though the players don't know it, they are addicted and in search of that next reward, they don't care how terrible the content is, or they don't mind the fact that they're constantly repeating the same content in hopes of that reward.

So basically the grind MMO allows the developer to be lazy and introduce minimal content, it's easy, and it has proven to hold players even when the developer makes major mistakes.

Well first off, the Devs do wanna make money, so the longer the people play, the better. Would you say WoW is a grindfest? yet it has probably the worst case of people being addicted.

Second, was Everquest a hit? from what i've read on this forum (i've never play'd it) it was one of the best MMO's ever.

As for my experience I have play'd FFXI which people said "was a grindfest" and yes it was. and I enjoyed it alot.

So I guess what i'm asking is. how do you make a good/chalenging MMO that isn't a grindfest? the problem with quest are, once one person has done it and posted all the "how-to's" it just because so easy everyone and there mom is leveled, and the game doesn't mean anything.

(And honestly, questing is a grindfest. whether you kill 100 boars and 1 ring drops, or you "have to save the farm, so you go and kill 100 boars, and the reward is a ring") you are still killing 100 boars.

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Soooo wrong on soo many levels

How is he wrong?

MMO's are grinds. Single player games have an end, you stop playing them. MMO's in theory have no end, how do you make the game have no end without repetitive play (grinds)? I haven't played one MMO that hasn't been like this, at least pve wise. PVP end games are repetitive in their own ways as well.

Originally posted by arenasb

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Soooo wrong on soo many levels

 

How is he wrong?

MMO's are grinds. Single player games have an end, you stop playing them. MMO's in theory have no end, how do you make the game have no end without repetitive play (grinds)? I haven't played one MMO that hasn't been like this, at least pve wise. PVP end games are repetitive in their own ways as well.

Agreed, modern MMO's are grindfests, but it never used to be that way and it doesn't have to be that way in the future, somewhere along the line they got corrupted

Since grind depends on the person playing the MMO, and as long as people play MMO's someone will always consider some part of it a grind. For example I never felt that I grinded exp in FFXI.  I enjoyed leveling new jobs. On the other token some people saw it as a grind. The problem was people look to the level cap and dont care about the start or the middle.

If it wasnt for the so called "grind" MMO's wouldnt last longer than a couple months. Think about it for 1 sec, You start an MMO at max level, and anything you want you get instanlty. So what else is there? PvP but how fun would that be when everyone will be wearing the best gear? Might as well go play FPS. All it would be without a grind is a glorified chat room. 

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Soooo wrong on soo many levels

 

See this is what I mean, I can't get anyone to give me good points. they just say "you are wrong." .....why am I wrong? give me an example. What would YOU do to make it so its not a long/boring grind? Come on your smart. lets see it.

 

Already been answered, so many players out there have been blinded by WOW, well here's a big surprise.. there were games out there long before WOW and they weren't grindfests, they focused on fun, social interaction and adventures and not XP.

As for the solution, take out the levels and XP and play for the sake of playing rather than achieving.

*cough* FFXI *cough* lets see it was, fun, interactive, and the BEST social/community based game ever. (don't beleive me, ask around the forums) But it was still a grindfest.

And this is what i'm talking about what is the deffinition of "grindfest"? because by all acounts I don't think WoW is. you quest/raid all the way to the cap....and then raid to death.

when I was playing WoW I grinded from 1-50 (because I enjoy grinding) people said I was nuts.........I dont' think WoW is a "grindfest"

No in Original consept design they should have NO levels at all. But this is taken from the RPG meaning. Roleplay your character you have build using a point system.

But as MMO's aint RP focust anymore but Play focust and need to keep in there non-roleplay customers it needs someting that keeps them in. levels are design no 1 for that ,end game and gear are numers two and 3

longer grind = more money from casual players

The easy way to keep em in. social play and design is far harder and more expencivve to do, it also requires more employers keeping trck of thing,, solving things

 The basic idea is to keep players playing as long as possibe- and grind is the easiest way to accomplish this. As long as nothing revolutionary will be implemented in the future MMO's, grinds ain't going anywhere either.  But the quality of grind is something the companies can do something about even if they can't think of something better.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Soooo wrong on soo many levels

 

See this is what I mean, I can't get anyone to give me good points. they just say "you are wrong." .....why am I wrong? give me an example. What would YOU do to make it so its not a long/boring grind? Come on your smart. lets see it.

 

Already been answered, so many players out there have been blinded by WOW, well here's a big surprise.. there were games out there long before WOW and they weren't grindfests, they focused on fun, social interaction and adventures and not XP.

As for the solution, take out the levels and XP and play for the sake of playing rather than achieving.

 

*cough* FFXI *cough* lets see it was, fun, interactive, and the BEST social/community based game ever. (don't beleive me, ask around the forums) But it was still a grindfest.

And this is what i'm talking about what is the deffinition of "grindfest"? because by all acounts I don't think WoW is. you quest/raid all the way to the cap....and then raid to death.

when I was playing WoW I grinded from 1-50 (because I enjoy grinding) people said I was nuts.........I dont' think WoW is a "grindfest"

The point being.. is that the 'mass' today see the most successful MMO to date and consider that to be the 'norm' for MMO's and not what they were originally designed and created as.

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Soooo wrong on soo many levels

 

See this is what I mean, I can't get anyone to give me good points. they just say "you are wrong." .....why am I wrong? give me an example. What would YOU do to make it so its not a long/boring grind? Come on your smart. lets see it.

 

Already been answered, so many players out there have been blinded by WOW, well here's a big surprise.. there were games out there long before WOW and they weren't grindfests, they focused on fun, social interaction and adventures and not XP.

As for the solution, take out the levels and XP and play for the sake of playing rather than achieving.

 

*cough* FFXI *cough* lets see it was, fun, interactive, and the BEST social/community based game ever. (don't beleive me, ask around the forums) But it was still a grindfest.

And this is what i'm talking about what is the deffinition of "grindfest"? because by all acounts I don't think WoW is. you quest/raid all the way to the cap....and then raid to death.

when I was playing WoW I grinded from 1-50 (because I enjoy grinding) people said I was nuts.........I dont' think WoW is a "grindfest"

The point being.. is that the 'mass' today see the most successful MMO to date and consider that to be the 'norm' for MMO's and not what they were originally designed and created as.

So what you are saying is, the majority of new MMO players now days get introduced into say WoW and think that is the norm, and then when they go play FFXI or some of the older games it looks like endless grinding?
 

If that is infact what you are saying I could deffinitly agree with you.....

(For the record also I do admit that FFXI is one big grind, and i love it. I guess i'm just asking the questing, what game isn't a grind?)

Even Halo is a grind.....kill the enemy's till you reach the end of the game.

---

Originally posted by Dewn

Well first off, the Devs do wanna make money, so the longer the people play, the better. Would you say WoW is a grindfest? yet it has probably the worst case of people being addicted.

---

It's also good for a drug dealer if a new customer gets addicted to his crack or heroin.  This is a despicable way to do business by getting your customers addicted.  The fact that they're able to provide minimal content for maximum profit once you're hooked is pretty low and it should anger you as well.
 

---

Originally posted by Dewn

Second, was Everquest a hit? from what i've read on this forum (i've never play'd it) it was one of the best MMO's ever.

---

Yes, Everquest was a hit, for reasons I mentioned in my post above.

---

Originally posted by Dewn

As for my experience I have play'd FFXI which people said "was a grindfest" and yes it was. and I enjoyed it alot.

---

Did you enjoy the process of actually playing it? or did you only enjoy it when you found an item you really wanted?  I've seen a lot of people play these grindfest style games, and they seem very very unhappy when they're actually playing the game, but they quickly become exalted when they find that nice item that they've been spending weeks trying to get.
 

---

Originally posted by Dewn

So I guess what i'm asking is. how do you make a good/chalenging MMO that isn't a grindfest? the problem with quest are, once one person has done it and posted all the "how-to's" it just because so easy everyone and there mom is leveled, and the game doesn't mean anything.

---

I appended some examples to my post above, so that should give you an idea based on the original successful MMORPGs that had original content.  The key is relying on the most numerous resource that an MMORPG has, other players.  Most MMORPGs neglect that, and even discourage player interaction.  Also, you don't need to read the how-to guides to get a quest done, that's just ruining it for yourself, what's the point?  Raid bosses are also quests by the way, so by that thinking, it's not enjoyable to repeat them over and over to get the item you want, and yet all modern WoW-like MMOs force you to constantly repeat instances so you can get the epics you need for the next raid boss.
 

---

Originally posted by Dewn

(And honestly, questing is a grindfest. whether you kill 100 boars and 1 ring drops, or you "have to save the farm, so you go and kill 100 boars, and the reward is a ring") you are still killing 100 boars.

---

Heh...  I feel bad for you, you haven't played a game with proper quests.  I recommend you try any Turbine game, except for maybe LOTRO (I haven't played it).  They have proper quests.  Some examples of quests in Asheron's Call -  A new item was added to the game, hollow weapons that cut through magical buffs.  There was no NPC that told you where to go, but books popped up at vendors describing the material (Chorizite) that was used to make it, and explained that it was found in lugian mines.  The first people to do the quest had no idea where to go, they had to explore to find it, and then they had to survive the lugian dungeon and mine chorizite ore at the bottom of it.  After that they had to find something that could generate enough heat to forge it into a weapon, as the book had said.  So they went to a town in a place called Crater Lake where there was someone named Silencia the Alchemist who had a "pet " magma golem, which could forge it into a weapon of your choice.
Another example would be the Aerlinthe quest, which is way too long to describe here, so i'll just link you to the walkthrough: http://www.thejackcat.com/AC/Hobbies/Quests/Aerlinthe.htm.
The last one I'll leave you with is the Sword of Lost Light, where the keys to the dungeon are scattered across the world, and you must go through many different dungeons and find them before you can do the quest.  Almost all the rewards you get in the quests by the way stay useful no matter your level, unlike a WoW epic where you might as well throw it away once you get the next tier.

Well I would say just don't make a game with any intention of it being played for years, make a much shorter experience, it reduces the need for repetition, which many people mean when they say grind.

I know that isn't a satisfactory answer, people want a game they can play for years and never get bored, but that isn't going to happen for most people, only the special types that really enjoy doing the same kind of things over and over.  You can use all the gimmicks you want to try and make it fresh like infinite leveling, skills, etc. but you will get bored though.

There is incentive to make a MMO a grindy game, the longer you play the more you pay, some people actually like that, but then some people like Carrot Top, I don't get it but whatever.

Originally posted by toddze

If it wasnt for the so called "grind" MMO's wouldnt last longer than a couple months. Think about it for 1 sec, You start an MMO at max level, and anything you want you get instanlty. So what else is there? PvP but how fun would that be when everyone will be wearing the best gear? Might as well go play FPS. All it would be without a grind is a glorified chat room. 

 

Please read my posts in this thread so you can understand why you're wrong.

Originally posted by Scottc

 

---

Originally posted by Dewn

Well first off, the Devs do wanna make money, so the longer the people play, the better. Would you say WoW is a grindfest? yet it has probably the worst case of people being addicted.

---

It's also good for a drug dealer if a new customer gets addicted to his crack or heroin.  This is a despicable way to do business by getting your customers addicted.  The fact that they're able to provide minimal content for maximum profit once you're hooked is pretty low and it should anger you as well.
 

---

Originally posted by Dewn

Second, was Everquest a hit? from what i've read on this forum (i've never play'd it) it was one of the best MMO's ever.

---

Yes, Everquest was a hit, for reasons I mentioned in my post above.

---

Originally posted by Dewn

As for my experience I have play'd FFXI which people said "was a grindfest" and yes it was. and I enjoyed it alot.

---

Did you enjoy the process of actually playing it? or did you only enjoy it when you found an item you really wanted?  I've seen a lot of people play these grindfest style games, and they seem very very unhappy when they're actually playing the game, but they quickly become exalted when they find that nice item that they've been spending weeks trying to get.
 

---

Originally posted by Dewn

So I guess what i'm asking is. how do you make a good/chalenging MMO that isn't a grindfest? the problem with quest are, once one person has done it and posted all the "how-to's" it just because so easy everyone and there mom is leveled, and the game doesn't mean anything.

---

I appended some examples to my post above, so that should give you an idea based on the original successful MMORPGs that had original content.  The key is relying on the most numerous resource that an MMORPG has, other players.  Most MMORPGs neglect that, and even discourage player interaction.  Also, you don't need to read the how-to guides to get a quest done, that's just ruining it for yourself, what's the point?  Raid bosses are also quests by the way, so by that thinking, it's not enjoyable to repeat them over and over to get the item you want, and yet all modern WoW-like MMOs force you to constantly repeat instances so you can get the epics you need for the next raid boss.
 

---

Originally posted by Dewn

(And honestly, questing is a grindfest. whether you kill 100 boars and 1 ring drops, or you "have to save the farm, so you go and kill 100 boars, and the reward is a ring") you are still killing 100 boars.

---

Heh...  I feel bad for you, you haven't played a game with proper quests.  I recommend you try any Turbine game, except for maybe LOTRO (I haven't played it).  They have proper quests.  Some examples of quests in Asheron's Call -  A new item was added to the game, hollow weapons that cut through magical buffs.  There was no NPC that told you where to go, but books popped up at vendors describing the material (Chorizite) that was used to make it, and explained that it was found in lugian mines.  The first people to do the quest had no idea where to go, they had to explore to find it, and then they had to survive the lugian dungeon and mine chorizite ore at the bottom of it.  After that they had to find something that could generate enough heat to forge it into a weapon, as the book had said.  So they went to a town in a place called Crater Lake where there was someone named Silencia the Alchemist who had a "pet " magma golem, which could forge it into a weapon of your choice.
Another example would be the Aerlinthe quest, which is way too long to describe here, so i'll just link you to the walkthrough: http://www.thejackcat.com/AC/Hobbies/Quests/Aerlinthe.htm.
The last one I'll leave you with is the Sword of Lost Light, where the keys to the dungeon are scattered across the world, and you must go through many different dungeons and find them before you can do the quest.  Almost all the rewards you get in the quests by the way stay useful no matter your level, unlike a WoW epic where you might as well throw it away once you get the next tier.

 

Yea I read the edited post, and I didn't knw about any of that, good info

Second part of the highlighted. That does sound intresting, but once the first people do it and the quest is out on the web the only thing to make it hard anymore is the enemies you encounter along the way...

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Soooo wrong on soo many levels

 

See this is what I mean, I can't get anyone to give me good points. they just say "you are wrong." .....why am I wrong? give me an example. What would YOU do to make it so its not a long/boring grind? Come on your smart. lets see it.

 

Already been answered, so many players out there have been blinded by WOW, well here's a big surprise.. there were games out there long before WOW and they weren't grindfests, they focused on fun, social interaction and adventures and not XP.

As for the solution, take out the levels and XP and play for the sake of playing rather than achieving.

 

*cough* FFXI *cough* lets see it was, fun, interactive, and the BEST social/community based game ever. (don't beleive me, ask around the forums) But it was still a grindfest.

And this is what i'm talking about what is the deffinition of "grindfest"? because by all acounts I don't think WoW is. you quest/raid all the way to the cap....and then raid to death.

when I was playing WoW I grinded from 1-50 (because I enjoy grinding) people said I was nuts.........I dont' think WoW is a "grindfest"

The point being.. is that the 'mass' today see the most successful MMO to date and consider that to be the 'norm' for MMO's and not what they were originally designed and created as.

So what you are saying is, the majority of new MMO players now days get introduced into say WoW and think that is the norm, and then when they go play FFXI or some of the older games it looks like endless grinding?
 

If that is infact what you are saying I could deffinitly agree with you.....

 

(For the record also I do admit that FFXI is one big grind, and i love it. I guess i'm just asking the questing, what game isn't a grind?)

Even Halo is a grind.....kill the enemy's till you reach the end of the game.

The difference is that the act of playing Halo is fun, whereas the act of playing an MMORPG tends to only be fun when you reach a milestone or receive a reward.  It is satisfying to see your enemies explode, and to dodge their attacks, and skillfully aim at them.