Originally posted by chaosngn

 

When US guild Exodus received the achievement Alone in the Darkness for their killing of Yogg-Saron without keepers, they apparently used an exploit. While there had already been accusations of this, I take anything within the WOW community lightly until I see otherwise. There will always be some jealous punk somewhere crying foul when you do something that they can't. There's a new thread in our realm forums every day about the account I hacked last week, or the person who was removed from our guild without reason (of course in their eyes), or our progress. This time, in the case of Exodus, it just so happens that it was true.

This paragraph is really confusing.  You go from saying that Exodus might be innocent, and that it could have just been someone whining about their progress, to saying that it is truth.  Also, you hack game accounts?  That's pretty shady business.  At least, that's what the sentence seems to state.  I understand it might be the worse perspective, but it is confusing regardless.

What is an exploit can be debated until the cows come home.

I don't agree with this.  The idea of a game exploit is abusing a game mechanic to achieve something unintentional that either negatively effects others or unfairly benefits you.  Now, sure, some people might debate how legit an exploit is, but usually it is more of a rationalization to avoid guilt than a real debate.  In short, you know when you or someone else is exploiting.

This goes back to standing behind the fence on Mandy, and I am sure farther. But that's the first time I can remember an entire guild being suspended or banned. My thought on this is that they were clever and used a game mechanic against the boss. Certainly it wasn't the way it was intended, but this being the case, it was in Blizzard's job to fix the programming error.

Here is where I really begin to disagree with you.  First, there are only so many ways for the game to undergo testing.  You have the PTR testing, beta testing, and in-house testing.  Even though that's a large group of people, they will never find every bug.  So, some will remain during launch.  That means that someone will find a bug they can benefit from, and some will choose to exploit it.

Second, the idea of not banning people or guilds who do this is just purely ridiculous.  Sure, after a bug is found it is the company's obligation to fix it.  That being said, if Blizzard did not ban players who benefited from exploiting than people would be justified in trying to find more bugs.  Instead of reporting them and getting them fixed, people would abuse them.  I think, although Blizzard needs to actively fix bugs, they are in the right when it comes to banning guilds or players for exploiting bugs they discover.

While I don't believe in cheating within the game, there is a gray area between when it's a programming error or all out cheating. This IS a game mechanic, whether intended or not, and I find it ridiculous that Blizzard would punish a guild for THEIR mistake. Kobyashi Maru anyone? That being said, I don't think the kill should count, especially by any record keeping standard.

The guild is being punished the same way a player is punished for exploiting a bug.  Here's an example:  A pre-made battleground team discovers a spot in Warsong Gultch they can hide the flag.   This spot not only puts the player out of line-of-sight, but also requires other players to make a specific amount of jumps and wall climbing hops.  Now, this is part of game.  If you can climb the terrain because jumping is a mechanic and the messed up wall area is a bug the developers missed.

Now, get real.  Against this team everyone would head straight for the report button.  The team will win the match because they are exploiting.  Are you saying that Blizzard should allow the team to continue breaking the rules just because they happened to miss a bit of awkward terrain?  Seems kind of bad business to me.

While I have never condoned exploits, I will say that Blizzard has been changing directions lately. They are now focusing on a new MMO, and less and less resources are being given to World of Warcraft. Most average players might argue this, but it is completely evident in the lack of armor, design, and content in general. A good example is the new armor which is faction based, however, it all looks the same. Why? Because what's the first thing you need on a new MMO... designers.

This statement is completely off-base.  The idea that a billion dollar company would take resources away from their cash cow and not just hire new employees is ridiculous.  The average player would disagree with these statements because they are obviously just biased conjecture.  

Lack of armor design, are you kidding me?  I'm not sure what faction armor you are talking about, but the latest content patch put in a ton of new armor and weapon graphics.  Are you speaking about the argent tournament armor graphics?  The quartermasters you unlock all have the same rewards expect pets, tabards, and mounts.  This is to limit the amount of epic gear you can simply grind dailies for.  

Or are you talking about the gear you get from tabard factions?  This armor all appears the same due to complaints from the prior expansion, and for good reason.  I'd rather have all my gear match than look like someone who dresses in the dark.

To think Blizzard has any lack of developers or employees in general is just insane.  I'd love to see proof that they are spending less time on World of Warcraft in favor of their next gen mmo. 

I have to say that I do believe that Blizzard stacks the cards in their favor, and probably do make bosses impossible until they decide otherwise.

If you think the bosses in World of Warcraft are impossible you really haven't played many other MMORPGs.  The bosses in Ulduar are fairly simple and their hardmodes are refreshing when compared to the epicfest which is Naxxramas.  Give me a break.

This has been suspected for years, but it's really starting to show lately.

I'd like proof of this.  Just because a guild has to exploit to kill a boss in a hardmode doesn't mean that the boss is normally impossible.  The fact is that guilds have to gear up in order to tackle hardmode bosses.  Surprised?  Perhaps in a world where epics drop like gumdrops in la la land people are surprised when the purples they were given don't help them in hardmode.

With all of the MMORPGs coming out, and with resources at Blizzard being diverted to the new MMO, it wouldn't surprise me if Exodus and Ensidia's accusations are true.

What accusations are these?  I'd like more reference if you are going to promote your blog via this website. 

Blizzard has already admitted that they released Black Temple too early, and what would keep them from not allowing people to complete content until they felt like they could put out another raid instance with rehashed mobs dawning new color schemes.

This is a ridiculous conspiracy theory.  Blizzard's statement that The Burning Crusade made the leap between raids to severe was not Blizzard's way of admitting they release impossible content on purpose.  The whole idea of Naxxramas, Obsidian Sanctum, and heroics in Wrath is that they are stepping stones into raid progression.  The first raids released were easy and allowed more players than ever to experience raiding.  

To say that Ulduar is impossible is laughable, and to say that hardmodes or any boss in the current game is impossible is just silly.  Also, to make a jab at them for rehashed art design and color schemes just further proves you have a biased against Blizzard. Again, give me a break.

 

There was an issue on Asheron's Call a little while ago where a bunch of people who got banned for a week for using an exploit and told that future bans would be longer.

They too sat there and tried to say it was Turbine's fault for not preventing the exploit (the difference between AC and WoW is that AC has monthly content updates which does make bugs more likely, Blizzard has a lot more time to catch bugs at least). And how they shouldn't have been banned for exploiting and it wasn't their fault.

As with this thread people jumped on them and tried to get it through their thick skulls that using a bug to your advantage is YOUR fault, not the company that let the bug through. It is always unfortunate when a bug makes it into a game but it's bound to happen, there are too many variables to make sure there isn't a single bug left over.

It is sad that people try to dodge all responsibility for their actions, and always want to blame others for them doing the wrong thing. I think Blizzard's ban was far too short, I felt Turbine's ban was far too short and it was a week. People who exploit need to be shown that the consequences make it not worth even considering, a month ban for the first offense and worse from there, if there are multiple offenses then a full out ip/cc ban for all of that companies products should be enacted.

Originally posted by chaosngn

Blizzard has already admitted that they released Black Temple too early,

You are correct, they did admit to releasing Black Temple too early. But not because of why you say so. Way to take something WAY out of context to try and prove your own point.

The reason they commented about the Black Temple being released too early is that Illidan was supposed to be the final BOSS of The Burning Crusade. The entire expansion dealt with him and the content for it should have ended with him. However, since they released it too early (in the development cycle), they had to scramble and find another boss to be more epic than Illidan so they introduced Kiljedan (sp?) in Magister's terrace.

The reason they made this comment is to let the players know that Arthas will be the FINAL boss of WOTLK; this is why the raids are preparing us for that confrontation and why recent decisions (badges for example) will make sure people are on the same playing field..

So it has nothing to do with the difficulty of the raid or the details of color schemes or however you want to spin it, Blizzard just wants to be sure that the chief badass is the final boss for that expansion.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by Shana77

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

Tbh it's Blizzards fault so how can you suspend someone for finding a bug and taking advantage of it? Pisses me off when developers cry over this though it's their own lack of testing.

 

To give a comparison, let's say you walk past an ATM machine and it appears to be broke and money is flying out of it. Now you can do 2 things, either report the issue at the bank, or take the money and be silent about it. Now if the police catch you, it won't be enough to say "hey they should have the machine fixed". You took money that wasn't yours so your guilty. 

Now back to this US guild, they knew they where exploiting, exploiting game mechanics is illegal by the Terms of Service you have to sign onto when you log into the game. So if you don't agree with the idea that abusing exploits can get you banned, you shouldn't have hit the "I Agree" button on the ToS and thus never have even started playing the game. Too bad you won't find any MMO out there that doesn't have "exploiting game mechanics" as a bannable offense in their ToS though. 

Regardless, what makes this exploiting worste is that unlike other guilds who have immediatly been forthcoming about the bugs and exploits they used, these Americans kept their mouth shut and claimed the actual world first as being legit. Had they been forthcoming and honest about this, they would not have been banned, but they decided to lie to everyone just to have their 15 minutes of fame and now they are being properly banned and shamed for it. 

 

PERFECT.. I couldn't have done any better.. except that American part.. lol I'm from the US and I would hate to be lumped into the "American" part..  I'm honorable and play for fun..  It's a shame that people in general reguardless of nationality, need to cheat to win.. :(    Why even play then?

 

Firstly thats not the same and even if it was you'd take th emoney and it would be your right cause it's the stupid banks fault. Secondly it ain't cheating, it's in the game so it's legal.

Ah no....just try and keep money that you receive from a bank that isn't yours, even if its their mistake.  They'll hunt you down, prosecute you and worst of all, blacklist you from the banking system, which will prevent you from ever having a bank account.  (I've known people who had this happen, results were not pretty)

Cheating is cheating.  Just because something is overlooked, doesn't mean you don't know what the right thing to do is.

These folks got what they deserved.

 Whoa!  Wait a damn minute.  You mean hardcore WoW raiders exploit bugs and cheats to clear content?

Wow, I never new!!11!!1!

I guess you can toss the term "hardcore" out in their case.

/sarcasm

now they have plenty of time to go outside and socialize.

The first kill of the hardest boss in FFXI  (Aboslute Virtue) was killed via an exploit.

The guild was not banned, infact SE thanked them for pointing this out to them after the fact.

WoW abuses its players because they can get away with it.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

The first kill of the hardest boss in FFXI  (Aboslute Virtue) was killed via an exploit.

The guild was not banned, infact SE thanked them for pointing this out to them after the fact.

WoW abuses its players because they can get away with it.

 

Does it say anywhere that they went to the devs and said here is an exploit? I have read nothing that says they did so I am curious. I have a feeling that if they had, Blizzard wouldn't have come down on them as hard.

Everything I read says they claimed it as a world first and evidence of the exploit only came to light later. I think it is more an issue of their hand got caught in the cookie jar.

There is really no way to stop a boss fight in the middle and report it so even after the fight was over, had the guild leader or raid leader submitted a ticket saying it happened and even submitted some screenshots and was forthcoming with the info, Blizzard would have let it slide.

However, as I said, nothing that I have read indicates that this happened.

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by Laughing-man

The first kill of the hardest boss in FFXI  (Aboslute Virtue) was killed via an exploit.

The guild was not banned, infact SE thanked them for pointing this out to them after the fact.

WoW abuses its players because they can get away with it.

 

Dies it say anywhere, other than from Exodus, that they went to the devs and said here is an exploit? I have read nothing that says they did so I am curious. I have a feeling that if they had, Blizzard wouldn't have come down on them as hard.

Everything I read says they claimed it as a world first and evidence of the exploit only came to light later. I think it is more an issue of their hand got caught in the cookie jar.

There is really no way to stop a boss fight in the middle and report it so even after the fight was over, had the guild leader or raid leader submitted a ticket saying it happened and even submitted some screenshots and was forthcoming with the info, Blizzard would have let it slide.

However, as I said, nothing that I have read indicates that this happened.

Actually there was a Paladin who was banned way back when he exploited the old Reckoning skill and soloed Lord Kazzak. From what I understand he told the GM's before he did it, and was promptly banned after the kill.

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by chaosngn

 

When US guild Exodus received the achievement Alone in the Darkness for their killing of Yogg-Saron without keepers, they apparently used an exploit. While there had already been accusations of this, I take anything within the WOW community lightly until I see otherwise. There will always be some jealous punk somewhere crying foul when you do something that they can't. There's a new thread in our realm forums every day about the account I hacked last week, or the person who was removed from our guild without reason (of course in their eyes), or our progress. This time, in the case of Exodus, it just so happens that it was true.

This paragraph is really confusing.  You go from saying that Exodus might be innocent, and that it could have just been someone whining about their progress, to saying that it is truth.  Also, you hack game accounts?  That's pretty shady business.  At least, that's what the sentence seems to state.  I understand it might be the worse perspective, but it is confusing regardless.

What is an exploit can be debated until the cows come home.

I don't agree with this.  The idea of a game exploit is abusing a game mechanic to achieve something unintentional that either negatively effects others or unfairly benefits you.  Now, sure, some people might debate how legit an exploit is, but usually it is more of a rationalization to avoid guilt than a real debate.  In short, you know when you or someone else is exploiting.

This goes back to standing behind the fence on Mandy, and I am sure farther. But that's the first time I can remember an entire guild being suspended or banned. My thought on this is that they were clever and used a game mechanic against the boss. Certainly it wasn't the way it was intended, but this being the case, it was in Blizzard's job to fix the programming error.

Here is where I really begin to disagree with you.  First, there are only so many ways for the game to undergo testing.  You have the PTR testing, beta testing, and in-house testing.  Even though that's a large group of people, they will never find every bug.  So, some will remain during launch.  That means that someone will find a bug they can benefit from, and some will choose to exploit it.

Second, the idea of not banning people or guilds who do this is just purely ridiculous.  Sure, after a bug is found it is the company's obligation to fix it.  That being said, if Blizzard did not ban players who benefited from exploiting than people would be justified in trying to find more bugs.  Instead of reporting them and getting them fixed, people would abuse them.  I think, although Blizzard needs to actively fix bugs, they are in the right when it comes to banning guilds or players for exploiting bugs they discover.

While I don't believe in cheating within the game, there is a gray area between when it's a programming error or all out cheating. This IS a game mechanic, whether intended or not, and I find it ridiculous that Blizzard would punish a guild for THEIR mistake. Kobyashi Maru anyone? That being said, I don't think the kill should count, especially by any record keeping standard.

The guild is being punished the same way a player is punished for exploiting a bug.  Here's an example:  A pre-made battleground team discovers a spot in Warsong Gultch they can hide the flag.   This spot not only puts the player out of line-of-sight, but also requires other players to make a specific amount of jumps and wall climbing hops.  Now, this is part of game.  If you can climb the terrain because jumping is a mechanic and the messed up wall area is a bug the developers missed.

Now, get real.  Against this team everyone would head straight for the report button.  The team will win the match because they are exploiting.  Are you saying that Blizzard should allow the team to continue breaking the rules just because they happened to miss a bit of awkward terrain?  Seems kind of bad business to me.

While I have never condoned exploits, I will say that Blizzard has been changing directions lately. They are now focusing on a new MMO, and less and less resources are being given to World of Warcraft. Most average players might argue this, but it is completely evident in the lack of armor, design, and content in general. A good example is the new armor which is faction based, however, it all looks the same. Why? Because what's the first thing you need on a new MMO... designers.

This statement is completely off-base.  The idea that a billion dollar company would take resources away from their cash cow and not just hire new employees is ridiculous.  The average player would disagree with these statements because they are obviously just biased conjecture.  

Lack of armor design, are you kidding me?  I'm not sure what faction armor you are talking about, but the latest content patch put in a ton of new armor and weapon graphics.  Are you speaking about the argent tournament armor graphics?  The quartermasters you unlock all have the same rewards expect pets, tabards, and mounts.  This is to limit the amount of epic gear you can simply grind dailies for.  

Or are you talking about the gear you get from tabard factions?  This armor all appears the same due to complaints from the prior expansion, and for good reason.  I'd rather have all my gear match than look like someone who dresses in the dark.

To think Blizzard has any lack of developers or employees in general is just insane.  I'd love to see proof that they are spending less time on World of Warcraft in favor of their next gen mmo. 

I have to say that I do believe that Blizzard stacks the cards in their favor, and probably do make bosses impossible until they decide otherwise.

If you think the bosses in World of Warcraft are impossible you really haven't played many other MMORPGs.  The bosses in Ulduar are fairly simple and their hardmodes are refreshing when compared to the epicfest which is Naxxramas.  Give me a break.

This has been suspected for years, but it's really starting to show lately.

I'd like proof of this.  Just because a guild has to exploit to kill a boss in a hardmode doesn't mean that the boss is normally impossible.  The fact is that guilds have to gear up in order to tackle hardmode bosses.  Surprised?  Perhaps in a world where epics drop like gumdrops in la la land people are surprised when the purples they were given don't help them in hardmode.

With all of the MMORPGs coming out, and with resources at Blizzard being diverted to the new MMO, it wouldn't surprise me if Exodus and Ensidia's accusations are true.

What accusations are these?  I'd like more reference if you are going to promote your blog via this website. 

Blizzard has already admitted that they released Black Temple too early, and what would keep them from not allowing people to complete content until they felt like they could put out another raid instance with rehashed mobs dawning new color schemes.

This is a ridiculous conspiracy theory.  Blizzard's statement that The Burning Crusade made the leap between raids to severe was not Blizzard's way of admitting they release impossible content on purpose.  The whole idea of Naxxramas, Obsidian Sanctum, and heroics in Wrath is that they are stepping stones into raid progression.  The first raids released were easy and allowed more players than ever to experience raiding.  

To say that Ulduar is impossible is laughable, and to say that hardmodes or any boss in the current game is impossible is just silly.  Also, to make a jab at them for rehashed art design and color schemes just further proves you have a biased against Blizzard. Again, give me a break.

 

 

lol there sure are a lot of  gray area in game ask athene  and his friend when they was aiming for first lvl 80 in wow and got stoped just as they were almost at 80

yep same thing they abused gray area was it against the rule not really since they asked before hand ,but they still suffered same as exodus lol and probably because some of their competitor  reported them     ,exodus probably havent even been got caught at first ,someone probably reported them you wouldnt believe what happens in wow

but i bet they will be a lot more carefull to who they speak to if  they break a record next time they wont speak as freelly as in the past

wich in my view is a shame ,its literally a lost for the whole wow comunity

Originally posted by Nicksd

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by Laughing-man

The first kill of the hardest boss in FFXI  (Aboslute Virtue) was killed via an exploit.

The guild was not banned, infact SE thanked them for pointing this out to them after the fact.

WoW abuses its players because they can get away with it.

 

Dies it say anywhere, other than from Exodus, that they went to the devs and said here is an exploit? I have read nothing that says they did so I am curious. I have a feeling that if they had, Blizzard wouldn't have come down on them as hard.

Everything I read says they claimed it as a world first and evidence of the exploit only came to light later. I think it is more an issue of their hand got caught in the cookie jar.

There is really no way to stop a boss fight in the middle and report it so even after the fight was over, had the guild leader or raid leader submitted a ticket saying it happened and even submitted some screenshots and was forthcoming with the info, Blizzard would have let it slide.

However, as I said, nothing that I have read indicates that this happened.

 

Actually there was a Paladin who was banned way back when he exploited the old Reckoning skill and soloed Lord Kazzak. From what I understand he told the GM's before he did it, and was promptly banned after the kill.

Key word highlighted in red.

If he told them before, he is saying "Look I know this is an exploit but screw you and your rules, I am doing it anyway". he had to have known it was an exploit to even THINK about trying that solo. Just like I would not go into MC at level 60 and tell people I am going to solo Ragnaros....to even think it, I know I must be doing something wrong.

If  a raid discovers an exploit while raiding, by coincidence, then I think Blizzard would forgive them. They make take away the achievement or something like that though.

The issue is intent. DiD Exodus go in there knowing its an exploit (maybe by reading about it or discovering it happened on a prior raid)?

Or did they go in there and all of the sudden the bug happened and they realized it?

And afterwards did they report it to Blizzard or try and keep it quiet?

All of that has to be taken into account and given Blizzard's reaction, I think we can deduce the answers to some of those questions.

Well thats a good point, but really I don't think blizard did anything wrong by banning them. I hate cheaters.

Originally posted by Nicksd

Well thats a good point, but really I don't think blizard did anything wrong by banning them. I hate cheaters.

I agree wholeheartedly (especially cheaters who claim world firsts on their website even though they cheated to do it).

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by Laughing-man

The first kill of the hardest boss in FFXI  (Aboslute Virtue) was killed via an exploit.

The guild was not banned, infact SE thanked them for pointing this out to them after the fact.

WoW abuses its players because they can get away with it.

 

Does it say anywhere that they went to the devs and said here is an exploit? I have read nothing that says they did so I am curious. I have a feeling that if they had, Blizzard wouldn't have come down on them as hard.

Everything I read says they claimed it as a world first and evidence of the exploit only came to light later. I think it is more an issue of their hand got caught in the cookie jar.

There is really no way to stop a boss fight in the middle and report it so even after the fight was over, had the guild leader or raid leader submitted a ticket saying it happened and even submitted some screenshots and was forthcoming with the info, Blizzard would have let it slide.

However, as I said, nothing that I have read indicates that this happened.

your probably right if a third person complained to blizzard ,even if its just hearsay from exodus player

blizzard have the means to investigate,it happened to me ands some friend ,killed the final boss, the island north of blood elf start area

server restart  3 second efter kill no time to loot head or anything took 1 or 2 days and the one that ticketed blizzard got a message from blizzard that the issue was investigated and that we were correct so they send the head to our mail and droped item

so in the end blizzard has the means to investigate and since its an important issue as a first kill blizzard would never let it slide by without investigating and when they go to that trouble and you dont say anything about the loop hole you found you can bet

situation like exodus will happens

exodus only got caught because one in their group spoke to the wrong person

lot of player do same as exodus in various situation and never ear of blizzard

It's just a bliddy game for goodness sake. Lighten up.
If an exploit exists and a group finds that exploit they deserve to take advantage. Devs dont program exploits into their own code do they??? Wait, perhaps they do program them in, so they, as lesser normal people, can test the boss actually dies.
Wait again, if the devs did put the code in for testing purposes, should they not remove t before going live???

If the devs leave the code in....................................

And please stop quoting >> quoting >> quoting and then adding a line to a post. You endup with single posts a metre high.

Originally posted by chaosngn

I don't think they posted the video until after. The fact is that Blizzard made the fight impossible because they don't have the resources to create the raids that existed in BC, therefore they are making some things damn near impossible. The red flag was that it was beat, because Blizzard knew it couldn't be. I also am willing to bet that they check into every single world first.

Sorry, but I have to LOL at this post.   Blizzard doesn't have the resources?   They earn billions off of Wow annually and they don't have the resources?

Also, the guild deserved what they got.   It was wrong, and they knew it was wrong.   Simple.

Originally posted by Darkjinxter

It's just a bliddy game for goodness sake. Lighten up.
If an exploit exists and a group finds that exploit they deserve to take advantage. Devs dont program exploits into their own code do they??? Wait, perhaps they do program them in, so they, as lesser normal people, can test the boss actually dies.
Wait again, if the devs did put the code in for testing purposes, should they not remove t before going live???

If the devs leave the code in....................................

And please stop quoting >> quoting >> quoting and then adding a line to a post. You endup with single posts a metre high.

No one programs exploits into a game. It's a simple fact of lines upon lines of coding. Errors happen. There is no way you will find them all before bringing the patch to live servers.

You have to admit that some players have a really "out of the box" mentality to find some of the bugs they do. You can't expect, nor should you, that the people making the game will think of everything.

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by chaosngn

I don't think they posted the video until after. The fact is that Blizzard made the fight impossible because they don't have the resources to create the raids that existed in BC, therefore they are making some things damn near impossible. The red flag was that it was beat, because Blizzard knew it couldn't be. I also am willing to bet that they check into every single world first.

 

 

Sorry, but I have to LOL at this post.   Blizzard doesn't have the resources?   They earn billions off of Wow annually and they don't have the resources?

Also, the guild deserved what they got.   It was wrong, and they knew it was wrong.   Simple.

money wise blizzard should be ritch right? they got one big problem its activision its loosing so much money

it would take 4 blizzard to get activision out of trouble

they only have one, so it -x$ each  month,not +x$ each month like it should be

yep i feel pitty for blizzard they should have billion in their bank  account and probably have less then average joe in their bank account

Originally posted by CNUChavez

now they have plenty of time to go outside and socialize.

Probably all of them have second (or third...) accounts to play on for those 3 days.

Great job blizzard ban them cheating no good guilds and i may even go back to playing again . Oh wait if they did that they would have to ban about 20% of wow users and that would only leave money spammers oh well guess i will stay with eq.