Originally posted by Yamota

I dont understand why some people are so fanatically against gold buying/selling. If I want to pay someone else to grind for virtual money, rather than to do it myself, then what is the problem?

Most games I have played has no real need for buying gold as it comes, more or less naturally, when you play but some games like Lineage 2 and Eve are just horrible when it comes to the need to grind for gold.

Exploitation.

I know it's not popular amongst forum communities to care about people in countries that you don't live in; but buying gold from dodgy asian sites fuels exploitation; google around a bit and you'll find all the evidence you need.

I've nothing against one player selling gold to another player to make a bit of pockey-money; but there's absolutely no justification for supporting what amounts to borderline institutional slavery for the sake of convenience.

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Originally posted by SwampRob

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Originally posted by Yamota

I dont understand why some people are so fanatically against gold buying/selling. If I want to pay someone else to grind for virtual money, rather than to do it myself, then what is the problem?
Most games I have played has no real need for buying gold as it comes, more or less naturally, when you play but some games like Lineage 2 and Eve are just horrible when it comes to the need to grind for gold.

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Look, if you wanna drink or smoke weed or even do cocaine in your own home, not only do I not have a problem with that, I think it should be legal.  It only affects you.

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This entire statement is a fallacy. Drug use does not only effect one individual in life. The wife of a dead Mexican police officer killed by the drug cartels (Whom control and battle over the drug trade.) would highly disagree with your statement. I'd wager that the families of the victims in the US who were also killed via drug related gang violence would also feel the same as well.

Originally posted by SwampRob

If you buy gold in a game that I am playing, you affect the economy.   Yes, it does.    So, do whatever you enjoy as long as it doesn't negatively impact me.

 

Gold must be grinded by someone. Whats the difference if some unemployed young adult in a third world nation does it for me? Buying gold or not I impacted your economy.

I haven't read this whole thread, and I've seen a few kinda hint at this (and I bet others actually say it but I'm just too lazy to read everything right now).  Still, this action by the Chinese govt is NOT to help game companies, or players, or limit the number of sweatshop type "businesses" in their country.  People are closer when they suppose it's related to controlling the economy.  But, more accurately, the crack down (including porn) is directly related to what just went down in Iran.  China fears what just happened in Iran, and they are doing what they can to remind their populace that they are in control and watching.

In fact, China's ability to monitor and control the internet and cell phone usage is supposedly much less centralized/effective than Iran's is.  I've read numerous reports that the "deep packet inspection" technology that Nokia/Siemens sold to Iran = doesn't work for some reasons with China's infrastructure.  So, instead, China is left with token enforcement and simply changing laws to coerce people out of partaking in any potentinally subversive activities.  The crackdown on porn and gold selling is just for show, though I bet they'll enforce it enough that it sends a message to the people.

Frankly, I'm surprised nobody started a thread to discuss this article's point about the Iranian firewall and the possibility of using MMO's to get around it: http://asert.arbornetworks.com/2009/06/a-deeper-look-at-the-iranian-firewall/ .  It's something relevant to MMO'ing and relevant to current events.  Who cares about the news or outside world though, right?  Oh, and here's a quotation from that link since the relevant info. is at the end:

While the rapidly evolving Iranian firewall has blocked web, video and most forms of interactive communication, not all Internet applications appear impacted. Interestingly, game protocols like xbox and World of Warcraft show little evidence of government manipulation.

Perhaps games provide a possible source of covert channels (e.g. “Bring your elves to the castle on the island of Azeroth and we’ll plan the next Ahmadinejad protest rally?”)

Oh well, like I said, I haven't had time to read up on these forums recently, so maybe people have already discussed this to death.  Anyways, I bet that I remain... the thread-killer... ending all discussion in whatever thread I post to ;^_^

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Originally posted by MustaphaMond

 

I haven't read this whole thread, and I've seen a few kinda hint at this (and I bet others actually say it but I'm just too lazy to read everything right now).  Still, this action by the Chinese govt is NOT to help game companies, or players, or limit the number of sweatshop type "businesses" in their country.  People are closer when they suppose it's related to controlling the economy.  But, more accurately, the crack down (including porn) is directly related to what just went down in Iran.  China fears what just happened in Iran, and they are doing what they can to remind their populace that they are in control and watching.
In fact, China's ability to monitor and control the internet and cell phone usage is supposedly much less centralized/effective than Iran's is.  I've read numerous reports that the "deep packet inspection" technology that Nokia/Siemens sold to Iran = doesn't work for some reasons with China's infrastructure.  So, instead, China is left with token enforcement and simply changing laws to coerce people out of partaking in any potentinally subversive activities.  The crackdown on porn and gold selling is just for show, though I bet they'll enforce it enough that it sends a message to the people.
Frankly, I'm surprised nobody started a thread to discuss this article's point about the Iranian firewall and the possibility of using MMO's to get around it: http://asert.arbornetworks.com/2009/06/a-deeper-look-at-the-iranian-firewall/ .  It's something relevant to MMO'ing and relevant to current events.  Who cares about the news or outside world though, right?
Oh well, like I said, I haven't had time to read up on these forums recently, so maybe people have already discussed this to death.  Anyways, I bet that I remain... the thread-killer... ending all discussion in whatever thread I post to ;^_^

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Maybe in OFF-TOPIC. Since this site is already full of game issues we can't resolve in civilized way, most "political" stuff only born and die in off-topic. And I am too scared to look on that subforum. Probably there lie dragons.

Other than that, your post is terrible interesting and full of substance. I am overfilled of information, but most of what you say is new to me. Thanks!

Originally posted by protoroc

Originally posted by SwampRob

If you buy gold in a game that I am playing, you affect the economy.   Yes, it does.    So, do whatever you enjoy as long as it doesn't negatively impact me.

 

Gold must be grinded by someone. Whats the difference if some unemployed young adult in a third world nation does it for me? Buying gold or not I impacted your economy.

For one is F'n annoying as hell when I'm trying to enjoy a game and half  my whispers/tells are gold spam that I DO NOT want,its like that annoying little kid trying to tell you what to do at the arcade when your trying to play a game :)..Its also "Technically" against the law because its under the terms and Agreements  with most MMO'ish games. Besides that to be honest IF your some one who could not buy gold if it was Lagit , it would really bite the big one bcause you would have to Grind even more than others because Items/gear/things in a game at AH would be way pricere imo at least.

On another note someone told me that if a gold sellers whispering/telling you/spamming the selling of gold to you is unwanted it can fall under Stalking and/or harrassement witch Can be inforced internationally,but there would have to be a lot of people to stand up and make a petition for this sort of action to get put into action.

Originally posted by protoroc

Originally posted by SwampRob

If you buy gold in a game that I am playing, you affect the economy.   Yes, it does.    So, do whatever you enjoy as long as it doesn't negatively impact me.

 

Gold must be grinded by someone. Whats the difference if some unemployed young adult in a third world nation does it for me? Buying gold or not I impacted your economy.

How about its earned/grinded by the actual people ENJOYING the game, not treating it as a business and a way of life?   Its pretty simple.  It really all begins with the stupid scrubs who buy the gold.   Better to have no economy at all than have losers manipulating a videogame for profit, ruining for the actual players.

Originally posted by Teiman

 

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Originally posted by MustaphaMond

 

*snip*

 
Maybe in OFF-TOPIC. Since this site is already full of game issues we can't resolve in civilized way, most "political" stuff only born and die in off-topic. And I am too scared to look on that subforum. Probably there lie dragons.

funny =D

Bad idea is bad. Here's why. The fundamental attempt to enforce what is a wholly private affair is not only beyond the sphere of any reasonable governance, it's one that cannot be enforced within reasonable terms. Consider how the State in various countries still attempts forms of substance prohibition with scores of utter failures rolling in (through corruption, organized gangs, and generally draconic laws applied largely to consumers). This particular prohibition will be no different as both substance and behavioral prohibitions (in terms of purely consensual uses) suffer from the nature of market demand (and supply). People simply don't want to follow the same set of behaviors in terms of MMOs. There should be MMOs that cater to this demand; period and end of story (even though I personally find such behavior detestable).

The State should not even bother attempting to prohibit it. Nor should the State promote it. Rather, the State needs to accept the parallel, self-regulatory nature of the market (as in theory the State has its own self-regulatory factors). In such a hands-off policy, the people will realign their tastes accordingly, and institutions will give rise to properly partition gold sellers (and buyers) from those disinterested in such services. Any other claims to the contrary are not only in conflict with history, but also in conflict with non-contradictory economic theorems (which have stood the test of time from even the days before the Marginal Revolution of Menger and company).

Originally posted by ladyattis

Bad idea is bad. Here's why. The fundamental attempt to enforce what is a wholly private affair is not only beyond the sphere of any reasonable governance, it's one that cannot be enforced within reasonable terms. Consider how the State in various countries still attempts forms of substance prohibition with scores of utter failures rolling in (through corruption, organized gangs, and generally draconic laws applied largely to consumers). This particular prohibition will be no different as both substance and behavioral prohibitions (in terms of purely consensual uses) suffer from the nature of market demand (and supply). People simply don't want to follow the same set of behaviors in terms of MMOs. There should be MMOs that cater to this demand; period and end of story (even though I personally find such behavior detestable).

The State should not even bother attempting to prohibit it. Nor should the State promote it. Rather, the State needs to accept the parallel, self-regulatory nature of the market (as in theory the State has its own self-regulatory factors). In such a hands-off policy, the people will realign their tastes accordingly, and institutions will give rise to properly partition gold sellers (and buyers) from those disinterested in such services. Any other claims to the contrary are not only in conflict with history, but also in conflict with non-contradictory economic theorems (which have stood the test of time from even the days before the Marginal Revolution of Menger and company).

 

History shows if you put enough people up against a wall and shoot them it tends to discourage antisocial behavior. At the very least it reduces recidivism. They're not talking about the sort of "war on _____" where everyone makes a press release and  a few examples are made just to show how "serious" they are. Totalitarian governments don't really care if your theories conflict with their ideology. They'll keep applying force until they get the desired result or some other force makes them stop.  

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Originally posted by zymurgeist
History shows if you put enough people up against a wall and shoot them it tends to discourage antisocial behavior.

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Originally posted by zymurgeist
Totalitarian governments don't really care if your theories conflict with their ideology. They'll keep applying force until they get the desired result or some other force makes them stop.

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Yet these theories themselves prove the point again and again in terms of how social order is maintained (here's a hint: it's not maintained from the top-down, but rather the bottom-up.). China had to admit in its own day that totalitarianism in terms of the economy was bad. This is no different as it still deals with the social order, which no big army can ever defeat (save for by means of genocide/extermination of a people). As such, either the regime admits the futility now or it faces the long term cost of decline (and eventual destruction at the forces of the natural social order itself [via social entropy]).

Also, doing Jedi-Handwaving in terms of saying "It's only a theory" doesn't refute my point if both rational and empirical basis is sound. As such, one must attack the theory on those grounds, rather than playing an intellectually dishonest game of deflection (translation: leave it for the maroons at Faux News.).

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by protoroc

Originally posted by SwampRob

If you buy gold in a game that I am playing, you affect the economy.   Yes, it does.    So, do whatever you enjoy as long as it doesn't negatively impact me.

 

Gold must be grinded by someone. Whats the difference if some unemployed young adult in a third world nation does it for me? Buying gold or not I impacted your economy.

 

How about its earned/grinded by the actual people ENJOYING the game, not treating it as a business and a way of life?   Its pretty simple.  It really all begins with the stupid scrubs who buy the gold.   Better to have no economy at all than have losers manipulating a videogame for profit, ruining for the actual players.

How about developers make the games fun and not just a blatant time sink. As much as today's new mmos suck, they've got the right idea in that gold isn't very important and not so coveted.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Nicksd

Originally posted by Yamota

I dont understand why some people are so fanatically against gold buying/selling. If I want to pay someone else to grind for virtual money, rather than to do it myself, then what is the problem?

Most games I have played has no real need for buying gold as it comes, more or less naturally, when you play but some games like Lineage 2 and Eve are just horrible when it comes to the need to grind for gold.

 

Believe it or not it ruins the ecomony. You could say that it's not like the "gold" came out of thin air, but the point is the person buying the gold basically got "free" money to buy items from others without having to do any work. This drives up prices as people have more money they are willing to spend. Also the farmers getting the gold generally do not spend it towards the economy ingame.

I didn't read all the posts in this thread so this next part could have been said already. I know some people have gone as far as to say that the game company should just sell gold to players, and this will slow down or stop the farmers. No, this is the same problem as the farmers. Money is, for lack of a better term, coming out of thin air. As I said up above, they dont contribute to the economy in anyway except raising up the prices, and spreading gold around that people would not other wise have in the same time frame. Sure people could just go and get it themselves, but then they may get drops to also sell. This keeps the money flowing.

 

This view is incorrect. There is a difference between the developer selling gold to players (in this case, it really comes out of thin air) vs one player (the farmer) selling to another.

In the second case, SOMEONE is playing the game. Someone has to grind the same amount (may be he is a bit more efficient, but still) to get the gold. It is no difference than I give some gold to my kids, or a friend, except that real money is involved. ...

 

Guess again.  Gold sellers get a lot of their gold by hacking accounts and running bots, often on accounts purchased with stolen credit card numbers (even credit cards owned by their own former customers).  They have no concept of fairness or even common decency.  All they care about is money.  So when you buy gold, you are supporting this kind of behavior.

In any case, read the article again.  It has nothing to do with gold-selling in MMOs.  This is all about using virtual currency for trade of real world goods and services, including illicit ones.  This distorts the currency markets and makes it difficult for the government to control them.

Originally posted by ladyattis

 

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Originally posted by zymurgeist
History shows if you put enough people up against a wall and shoot them it tends to discourage antisocial behavior.

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So?

 

 

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Originally posted by zymurgeist
Totalitarian governments don't really care if your theories conflict with their ideology. They'll keep applying force until they get the desired result or some other force makes them stop.

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Yet these theories themselves prove the point again and again in terms of how social order is maintained (here's a hint: it's not maintained from the top-down, but rather the bottom-up.). China had to admit in its own day that totalitarianism in terms of the economy was bad. This is no different as it still deals with the social order, which no big army can ever defeat (save for by means of genocide/extermination of a people). As such, either the regime admits the futility now or it faces the long term cost of decline (and eventual destruction at the forces of the natural social order itself [via social entropy]).

Also, doing Jedi-Handwaving in terms of saying "It's only a theory" doesn't refute my point if both rational and empirical basis is sound. As such, one must attack the theory on those grounds, rather than playing an intellectually dishonest game of deflection (translation: leave it for the maroons at Faux News.).

Seen any protests in Tianamen square lately? So much for theory. Most of China is still under a strictly regulated command economy. Prices for most goods are set by the Government. Wages are set by the Government. Only in a very few places is a very limited form of capitalism allowed. Here's a handy quote to keep in mind when  talking about the Chinese government

Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.
~Mao Tse-Tung

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by Yamota

I dont understand why some people are so fanatically against gold buying/selling. If I want to pay someone else to grind for virtual money, rather than to do it myself, then what is the problem?

Most games I have played has no real need for buying gold as it comes, more or less naturally, when you play but some games like Lineage 2 and Eve are just horrible when it comes to the need to grind for gold.

 

Look, if you wanna drink or smoke weed or even do cocaine in your own home, not only do I not have a problem with that, I think it should be legal.  It only affects you.

If you buy gold in a game that I am playing, you affect the economy.   Yes, it does.    So, do whatever you enjoy as long as it doesn't negatively impact me.

Wanna smoke crack at home?   Go ahead.   Wanna do it and get out and drive?  GTFO.   If you are negatively impacting me, so you can have a shortcut, then you should be stopped/banned, etc.

ok first of all I just want to say that your comparison is insane. Comparing a drug that not only can kill you but also severly change your behaviour pattern so you are more prone to harm others or other illegal activities to selling gold in a virtual game is ludicrous. It is not in the same league, it is not even in the same sport. Selling virtual gold is not even illegal, atleast not in my country.

That being said, how excactly does gold buying/selling affect the economy? Assuming that the seller didnt use bots to aquire the gold but did it using legitimate ways I don't see the difference between me grinding for gold or I pay someone else to grind the gold. Someone has to actually play the game and get the gold, it being me or a gold farmer I dont see how that affects the economy. Again assuming he is not using bots or any other illegitimate ways of doing it.

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Nicksd

Originally posted by Yamota

I dont understand why some people are so fanatically against gold buying/selling. If I want to pay someone else to grind for virtual money, rather than to do it myself, then what is the problem?

Most games I have played has no real need for buying gold as it comes, more or less naturally, when you play but some games like Lineage 2 and Eve are just horrible when it comes to the need to grind for gold.

 

Believe it or not it ruins the ecomony. You could say that it's not like the "gold" came out of thin air, but the point is the person buying the gold basically got "free" money to buy items from others without having to do any work. This drives up prices as people have more money they are willing to spend. Also the farmers getting the gold generally do not spend it towards the economy ingame.

I didn't read all the posts in this thread so this next part could have been said already. I know some people have gone as far as to say that the game company should just sell gold to players, and this will slow down or stop the farmers. No, this is the same problem as the farmers. Money is, for lack of a better term, coming out of thin air. As I said up above, they dont contribute to the economy in anyway except raising up the prices, and spreading gold around that people would not other wise have in the same time frame. Sure people could just go and get it themselves, but then they may get drops to also sell. This keeps the money flowing.

 

This view is incorrect. There is a difference between the developer selling gold to players (in this case, it really comes out of thin air) vs one player (the farmer) selling to another.

In the second case, SOMEONE is playing the game. Someone has to grind the same amount (may be he is a bit more efficient, but still) to get the gold. It is no difference than I give some gold to my kids, or a friend, except that real money is involved. ...

 

 

Guess again.  Gold sellers get a lot of their gold by hacking accounts and running bots, often on accounts purchased with stolen credit card numbers (even credit cards owned by their own former customers).  They have no concept of fairness or even common decency.  All they care about is money.  So when you buy gold, you are supporting this kind of behavior.

 

In any case, read the article again.  It has nothing to do with gold-selling in MMOs.  This is all about using virtual currency for trade of real world goods and services, including illicit ones.  This distorts the currency markets and makes it difficult for the government to control them.

Any proof or anything that can be seen as and indication that what you are claiming is true? Stolen credit cards, indecent? Bla bla. I have given my CC details many times to gold sellers and not once have I been scammed of either the virtual or real currency.

This will reduce the amount of spamming and advertisement by a great amount, but gold farmer's and advertisement will still go on unless it's banned from the us and europe as well. If that happen, Runes of Magic, Warhammer Online, World of Warcraft, and other games will hardly have any gold spammers.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by Teiman

 

America is a nany state.  The civilians are just childrens for the governement to "protect from thenselves".  And seems that the people share this thing, and are really scared of "chaos".  So we have a "nanny state" that is supported by the poblation. 

 

Fixed.

Add Australia, Denmark and Turkey to that list ...

It is getting out of control, and Western Countries are going down the same road as China's totalitarian regime.

first porn, now gold farming...damn China...when did you become such a jerk?

Originally posted by desecrate

haha bout damn time, those ppl chinese or not ruin the economies of whatever game they get their hands on. problem is will they enforce it and accually look for the ppl doin it.

  It will make no difference to the golder seller problem in MMO's. Take China out you've still got Eastern Europeans, other Americans, Mexico and other countries in Asia running gold farming sweat shops. They'll just expand their operations to fill the void of Chinese gold farmers sweat shop closers.