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In PvP, this factor is huge. Even in PvE, the ability to dodge magical spells such as a fire bolt makes a big difference in the game play. With games like World of Warcraft (and so many others now days) - the ability to dodge these magical bolts is impossible. If the enemy mob or enemy player casts it at you, you are going to get smacked with it regardless. You could run inside a building and close a door before its cast at you, but somehow, this bolt will smack you in the face regardless of your actions. Perhaps the only way to avoid it would be to have skilled up a high enough magic resistance compared to the casters magic skill to be able to resist the spell. With old school games such as Asheron's Call (and perhaps a small handful of other mmos), these bolts are cast in a straight line and you could dodge to the side of the bolt with precise timing and actually use skill to avoid being hit. You could also simply maneuver behind an object like a building, rock, tree, or even behind a hill to avoid the blast. Obviously, in my opinion, any mmo that allows a user to use skill to dodge damage, and requires more skill to hit another player with such magic spells is the best choice and adds more immersion and self influence into the game mechanics and therefore is my preference. Keep in mind, this is NOT another "WOW vs Asherons Call" thread, but rather a thread created with the subject at mind. What kind of magic do you prefer? Why?
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Kyleran
 Elite Member
Joined: 9/13/06
A simple truth-"What people want and what is good for an mmo is not always the same thing"-mrw0lf |
6/29/09 10:07:57 AM#2
Tough question. I understand where the OP is coming from, but then again i think, if i was standing in front of someone with a flamethrower, I'm willing to bet there's almost no chance of them avoiding it once i manage to pull the trigger (assuming my aim is true) Most games require magic spells to take time to cast (except for instant cast spells) so I think the assumption is the time for a person to dodge it is before the caster gets it off. And some games do prevent the spell being cast if the line of sight is lost to the target. But once cast, the assumption is the spells execution is almost instantaneous, hence there is no way to dodge it, even if graphically it is slowed down to make the fireworks more entertaining. If we assume magic bolts move at the speed of an arrow, dodging one makes sense in some cases (not at close range, you're not dodging a bow at close range in real life either.) So I'll go with the both answer depending on circumstances. "Just because you aren't paying doesn't mean it's not PTW." - Amaranthar |
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Yes Kyler. Again... I like the dodge-able bolts myself. It adds a whole new dimension to magic in these mmorpgs. As a caster, it is typical that you are physically weak and also likely wearing low armor. So let's assume that we have this physically weak and low AC mage vs a plate armor wearing warrior player with a mighty glowing sword in his hand. With dodge-able magic bolts, the mage would need to close in as close as possible before casting to drastically cut down on the travel time of the fire bolt, thus cutting down the chances of the warrior successfully being able to maneuver and dodge the deadly spell. But closing the distance to the warrior also means his deadly sword is all that much closer to the frail mage. As a warrior, you have to make decisions as well. Should you run behind an object that might block the fire bolts? Should you keep a distance as to give you better chances and more time to dodge such attacks from the mage? Or should you just charge the mage head on and take his firebolts, confident that you will arrive on top of him with enough health to slice him to shreds with your sword? In a game like WOW, running or dodging is really not even on option here. The only option for the warrior in the same type of battle is to attack the mage and hope your weapon can dish out more damage then his spells. Running and even hiding behind objects would only mean certain death.
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6/29/09 10:22:20 AM#4
It is a different style of play. On WoW caster dps is awesome. Locks and Mages can run through people as long as they have the mana. Well their attacks would be worthless to their team/grp whatever if you can dodge everyone of them. The way WoW is played the "take this:firebolt" works.
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Very good point. Obviously, if the spells are dodge-able then a spell can't be taking up 30% of the caster's mana pool just to cast or the caster won't even stand a chance in this style of game play. And you're right, the way WOW is played, this style of "take this firebolt" works fine. ..But my question still remains... IS this style really preferred??
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6/29/09 10:29:00 AM#6
It's magic, you can't dodge magic. Or high tech, it's homed in on you dude.
If were were talking call of duty, different story.
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..Surely you can admit that watching a fireball circle around boulders and up and over hills to hit their intended target looks kinda "lame" to say the least? - Zaxx
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6/29/09 10:35:53 AM#8
I prefer being able to dodge spells and projectiles. The more aspects of combat that are dependent on my player skill (or complete lack thereof) the more I enjoy the game. Whether that skill is combos in Dragonica or dodging spells in Asheron's Call, the player skill aspect (mental or physical) is often an engaging part of an MMO for me. |
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6/29/09 10:41:38 AM#9
Originally posted by zaxtor99
It's a very basic RPG mechanic. Whether the spell or laser bolt hits you is determined by your stats versus your opponents stats. Your running around doesn't affect that. Ever played a D&D game, or some other Paper n Pencil roleplaying game? You have a dex stat, or a dodge skill, or an armor class, etc., etc. THAT determines whether or not you're going to be hit, depending on the opponents skill to hit you. Then, the picture, you getting hit by a fireball, is a representation of those stat calculations. Getting rid of armor class, dodge, chance to hit, makes it less RPG, more FPS. I like RPGs to be RPGs. If I don't want to get hit, I want to level up, skill up, buy a shield, a magic robe, etc., etc. If i want to hit, I want to level up, skill up, buy a better magic wand, train in "accuracy", and things like that, not run arond like a chicken. If I want to run around like a chicken, which can be fun, I'll play Battlefield, Call of Duty, etc. The more combat relies on me the PLayer versus the CHARACTER, the more I feel like I'm playing an FPS, and I like BOTH sorts of games. If all games were FPS games, then I'd have no RPG to play.
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Kyleran
Elite Member
Joined: 9/13/06
A simple truth-"What people want and what is good for an mmo is not always the same thing"-mrw0lf |
6/29/09 11:13:35 AM#10
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
It's a very basic RPG mechanic. Whether the spell or laser bolt hits you is determined by your stats versus your opponents stats. Your running around doesn't affect that. Ever played a D&D game, or some other Paper n Pencil roleplaying game? You have a dex stat, or a dodge skill, or an armor class, etc., etc. THAT determines whether or not you're going to be hit, depending on the opponents skill to hit you. Then, the picture, you getting hit by a fireball, is a representation of those stat calculations. Getting rid of armor class, dodge, chance to hit, makes it less RPG, more FPS. I like RPGs to be RPGs. If I don't want to get hit, I want to level up, skill up, buy a shield, a magic robe, etc., etc. If i want to hit, I want to level up, skill up, buy a better magic wand, train in "accuracy", and things like that, not run arond like a chicken. If I want to run around like a chicken, which can be fun, I'll play Battlefield, Call of Duty, etc. The more combat relies on me the PLayer versus the CHARACTER, the more I feel like I'm playing an FPS, and I like BOTH sorts of games. If all games were FPS games, then I'd have no RPG to play. Excellent points, and I guess they really sum the situation quite well MMORPG combat is supposed to be different than FPS, and based on factors other than player twitch skill or line of sight factors. The graphics are a representation of the "dice rolls" behind the scenes and may not reflect action combat action on the field. Not saying there can't be MMOFPS games, but there is room for both combat styles and the players who enjoy them. Since I'm old and slow, anything with a FPS in it really isn't for me. I prefer to win due to better strategy, tactics, preparation, or when all else fails, via superior numbers.
"Just because you aren't paying doesn't mean it's not PTW." - Amaranthar |
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6/29/09 11:14:43 AM#11
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
It's a very basic RPG mechanic. Whether the spell or laser bolt hits you is determined by your stats versus your opponents stats. Your running around doesn't affect that. Ever played a D&D game, or some other Paper n Pencil roleplaying game? You have a dex stat, or a dodge skill, or an armor class, etc., etc. THAT determines whether or not you're going to be hit, depending on the opponents skill to hit you. Then, the picture, you getting hit by a fireball, is a representation of those stat calculations. Getting rid of armor class, dodge, chance to hit, makes it less RPG, more FPS. I like RPGs to be RPGs. If I don't want to get hit, I want to level up, skill up, buy a shield, a magic robe, etc., etc. If i want to hit, I want to level up, skill up, buy a better magic wand, train in "accuracy", and things like that, not run arond like a chicken. If I want to run around like a chicken, which can be fun, I'll play Battlefield, Call of Duty, etc. The more combat relies on me the PLayer versus the CHARACTER, the more I feel like I'm playing an FPS, and I like BOTH sorts of games. If all games were FPS games, then I'd have no RPG to play. Good point. Also a warrior wearing plate mail should not really be dodging much stuff. I can see a nimble rogue/thief dodging fireballs and rolling behind cover but anyone wearing metal armor is not gonna be doing that for long. Mechanics-wise you would have to seriously balance against strafing and let the mage 'lead' the target sot he spells become more like small non-targeted AoEs or cone-of-effect spells. |
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6/29/09 11:20:23 AM#12
Too bad I never played AC. I would definitely prefer being able to dodge magic, arrows, bullets, etc. I would also like to manually block/parry, and even grapple and throw enemies. Also, it depends on the performance and overall enjoyability of the game. I would rather play the game wtih the following fireball if it's good, than playing the other and the game sucks. Technology isn't where it needs to be for the type of MMO I would want (at least I don't think it is). |
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Dewm
Spotlight Poster
Joined: 5/29/09
Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this. |
6/29/09 11:21:13 AM#13
That and if this where "true magic" like from real life, you probably wouldn't have a fire bolt origitating at you and heading to the victim, it would probably just set the victim on fire.
(I dunno if that even makes sence) But yeah I would prefere the "auto trail" and then worry about the stats
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6/29/09 11:23:19 AM#14
I agree that Magic should not be "dodged" in a game anymore than it could be in Real Life. It can be "resisted", but not dodged if it's focused on a single individual. ...So not unless it's an AoE. If you're outside the area being casted upon you can technically 'dodge' it.
So before anyone asks me about my basis for Real Life magic: It's defined as an action of the unexplained. LineageII | LoTRO | RFO | 9Dragons | Aion | Perfect World | Ether Saga | Dungeon Runners | GuildWars | Hellgate London | tCoS | Warhammer | AoC | Tabula Rasa
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6/29/09 11:27:29 AM#15
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
It's a very basic RPG mechanic. Whether the spell or laser bolt hits you is determined by your stats versus your opponents stats. Your running around doesn't affect that. Ever played a D&D game, or some other Paper n Pencil roleplaying game? You have a dex stat, or a dodge skill, or an armor class, etc., etc. THAT determines whether or not you're going to be hit, depending on the opponents skill to hit you. Then, the picture, you getting hit by a fireball, is a representation of those stat calculations. Getting rid of armor class, dodge, chance to hit, makes it less RPG, more FPS. I like RPGs to be RPGs. If I don't want to get hit, I want to level up, skill up, buy a shield, a magic robe, etc., etc. If i want to hit, I want to level up, skill up, buy a better magic wand, train in "accuracy", and things like that, not run arond like a chicken. If I want to run around like a chicken, which can be fun, I'll play Battlefield, Call of Duty, etc. The more combat relies on me the PLayer versus the CHARACTER, the more I feel like I'm playing an FPS, and I like BOTH sorts of games. If all games were FPS games, then I'd have no RPG to play.
The thing is not all RPGs have to follow D&D or any P&P game. Stats are not a rule; they are absolutely not necessary to Role Play. Leveling and equiping armor is cool, but I've done it a million times already. It's nice that you can jump into battlefield or COD and have fun, but I am HORRIBLE at FPS. My aim is shit no matter how much I try. I usually get head shotted in 2 seconds of spawning. I'm a fan of fighters like Street Fighter, or Soul Calibur, and wouldn't mind seeing something similar on a larger scale. Maybe it doesn't have to be an MMO, but an online game with lobbies similar to GW, or even FPS games. |
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6/29/09 11:46:40 AM#16
Originally posted by zaxtor99
What you describe in regards to wow is not true. Also what you suggest is already implemented into wow. It is called "LoS" or "Line of Sight". Mages cannot hit you through a wall, if you go inside a building where the magic user cannot see you he can not cast on you. However IF a mage shoots a bolt at you while you were in his LOS and you just happen to run around a corner while this spell was fired at you, yes it will curve the corner and blast your face. Good for you though because you are now behind a wall, and he can't get another shot on your without moving and gaining sight to you again. Also spells in wow are dodgeable and resistant. There are resistance lines for each school of magic, holy, fire, arcane, frost, shadow, and nature. If you have super high resistance then you will be able to shrug off a huge portion of that damage type. As far as being able to dodge magic. You can but it is stat based. I can run up to a level 30 caster at level 80 and I will dodge that mobs spells all day long. I have also dodged level 80 spells cast against me though that is much more rare because I am not a tank. Tank in wow with high dodge skill can dodge magic, some such as the DK can avoid magic all together with the magic shell buffer.
So wow already has what you speak of, just maybe not implemented to the effect that you want it. PS. Also on a side note, straight shooting spells would never work in a game such as wow for the simple fact that wow has twitch based combat, very fast paced with characters able to move very fast on the fly. Could even image how pissed mages would be if they could only hit a player based off a luck shot by guesstimating where their enemy MIGHT decide to move at any given time? They would be useless. I know from personal experience if mages, locks, shamans or whatever else cast a bolt. They would NEVER hit me with anything. I could dodge straight shot spells all day long. If I ever did get hit, would be a pure luck shot from the opposing caster. The mechanic just wouldn't work in a game like wow. |
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6/29/09 12:02:59 PM#17
Originally posted by skydragonren I think he's talking about manually dodging and not relying on stats. Also the fact that you were in LOS when the spell was cast, but it still hit you when you went behind a wall doesn't make much sense. I know we are talking about magic, but a bullet would not follow you around a wall. I could understand if the spell was powerful enough to penetrate the wall, but player damage should be reduced then. As for WoW type games being too fast pace, I think this could be fixed for casters with instant spells. Only really powerful spells could have casting times. If it's possible to hit players with bullets in a FPS, it would be possible in an MMO. Having a shitload of instant cast spells would be considered overpowered in current MMOs, because there is no way to dodge them. I don't think this would be a problem if everything had to be done manually. |
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6/29/09 12:08:57 PM#18
Originally posted by zaxtor99
I vastly prefer games that are realistic. Like you said in AC (and it is still up and running) you can dodge magic spells and arrows/thrown weapons. This means if you are paying attention and using your head you can dodge the projectiles and use your enviornment for cover as you rush up to an enemy to attack them. This also means as an archer or magic user you have to plan ahead and not just dumb fire the entire battle.
This creates a much more intense fight with thinking and strategies as opposed to the WoW style of "Ok I'm in a fight and with this class I hit 2 4 3 2 1 6 5 2 3 and then he dies". There is no fun or excitement in that, nothing ever changes and every fight goes the same boring way.
I will take a game with actual dodgeable projectiles any day of the week. I wouldn't mind a combination game where arrows/thrown weapons are dodgeable and most spells are dodgeable but there are special tracking spells in the mix too. But I would want those tracking spells to hit the environment so you could still out think it by putting a tree between you and it.
Not surprsingly I've been able to play AC for years, but have not be able to stick with any WoW style game more then a couple months before I get bored. |
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6/29/09 12:25:24 PM#19
I think someone else said this already but it is all stat based. Visually the fireball seems to hit you...quick calculations based on level/stats determine whether the damage numbers pop up or the word "miss". D&D did have magic missiles which followed you around or otherwise tracked a target. Maybe that should require a point / points spent in skills or a talent tree. To give individual spells/arrows/other ranged attacks tracking (and subsequently a hit bonus) or AoE damage..things like that..Character customization of missile and spells..including color..would be cool. Having missiles act realistically would look better visually and for immersion. Then again..it is "fantasy"..so anything can be explained. WoW and SWG are really bad with the homing attacks. In Nortrend...I was passing by a Wolvar while mounted...it threw something at me..a spear I think...and I swear it followed me from the Tuskar village in the south..can't remem the name...to the old tuskar village full of spirits. lol. Someone can probably figure out where I am talking about and the distance. I think it must be a bug...it still does it with missiles occasionally. SWG...well I know they are lasers and blasters..but they shouldn't be able to see you through 4 buildings...lol. At least line of sight for both games should be more accurate and affective in deterring attacks. |
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6/29/09 12:27:06 PM#20
I don't feel that Pen and Paper have anything at all to do with this. With PnP - you had no choice but to roll dice to determine whether or not you dodged. you just had no choice obviously. In modern RPG one could reinterpret this to allow player skill to factor into it. Look at Star Ocean RPG series. you can use your skill to dodge the bolt altogether however if it hits, then stats are used to determine how much damage you take / resistances, and so forth
There is no reason why MMORPGs cannot adopt similar systems unless they want to play the LAG card.
Personally I hate being able to fire through trees and buildings. I just noticed that this weekend in EVE I fired a missile right through a space station. It's not really realistic nor immersive watching a missle got right through a building. you just cant justify this too me. Never....
Integrating a little player skill is a no-brainer for PVP. Will make 'spiking' way less effective whereas a group of people target call your name on Vent and instapop ya. This got so bad in city of heroes that had to code some strange stuff to try to lessen this |
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