Well i consider it a flaw and im kinda worryed it might be  somthing that continues threwout the game.

From the review

"At one point, I broke off from the group to do a little solo exploring, and I quickly realized that I had no idea where I was. For me it was a really unique experience in an MMO because there was no radar in the upper corner showing me where I was on the map. There was no arrow pointing the way to go. I was actually lost, which made for a truly immersive experience, and this was only on the tiny test island we were placed on. I can only imagine what the immersion of being lost in a much larger and inhabited world would be like."

Ah somthing that looks neat on paper but flawed to the core.

Anyone remeber the reason they added minimap's to the game or playing before them?

They added them because of the inconvience factor of geting lost all the time and while you may think "aww noobs get worryed about being lost" There was a more balanced issue of giving them to everyone because that info is always feed to the client kinda has to be, and  people used custom ui to get maps and track other players.

So your enemy knew where you were and you did not, a giant issue.   So rather than give 1 side a advantage they gave it too everyone. Even tho people can still do it with having a mini-map casual players won't do it,  but a causal player will hunt for somthing like a mini map for the convenance and take the tracking as a bonus if you don't give it to them.

Issues like this in the name of being hardcore and not paying attention to the past does not give me hope for this game.

Mapmaking will be a skill.  You'll be able to learn areas, but the first time you go there you'll be completely lost.

I kinda like it.

It seems to me that you're just searching for an issue so you can't dislike the game. 

Originally posted by madeux

Mapmaking will be a skill.  You'll be able to learn areas, but the first time you go there you'll be completely lost.

I kinda like it.

It seems to me that you're just searching for an issue so you can't dislike the game. 

That just sounds freakin awesome.

Originally posted by Tridian

Originally posted by madeux

Mapmaking will be a skill.  You'll be able to learn areas, but the first time you go there you'll be completely lost.

I kinda like it.

It seems to me that you're just searching for an issue so you can't dislike the game. 

 

That just sounds freakin awesome.

Exactly!  For me, it's just one of hundreds of little decisions that they've made to enhance the game and bring in a bit of realism. 

More like a 'fog of war' thing that is only in place the first ime you go somewhere? That would not have any great advantages to modding other than the first few weeks, not worth the time I would have thought. The feature to me does sound good but I do see the caustion of the OP if it were a permanant thing.

I agree with the OP somewhat.

People seem to be blindly saying "It's awesome" before actually trying it for themselves. It sounds potentially awesome, but also sounds like once the "cool factor" wears off - it could just end up being a huge pain in the ass.

This is one of those features I'll have to wait to try for myself before I pass judgement on it.

Originally posted by harmonica

I agree with the OP somewhat.

People seem to be blindly saying "It's awesome" before actually trying it for themselves. It sounds potentially awesome, but also sounds like once the "cool factor" wears off - it could just end up being a huge pain in the ass.

This is one of those features I'll have to wait to try for myself before I pass judgement on it.

Reality is a pain in the ass.  Getting lost in the middle of nowhere is a pain in the ass... that's the whole point of it.

I think it brings in more of a sense of peril, as well as a sense of adventure... going through the woods to find out what's on the other side, vs looking at the map and seeing a "STORMWIND" scrolled beautifully across it. 

Well im not really looking for somthing to hate just paying attention to flaws, i like alot about the game but i don't like ignoring flaws in planing because of Realism or Hardcore reasons.

There's an enormous difference between a "flaw", as you put it, and a feature that will be liked or disliked based on personal opinion.

Your original terminology does make it look like you're searching for problems, whether that's the case or not.

Additionally, current games with minimaps have been hacked with "radar" programs to gain similar advantages.  Should minimaps be abolished for this?

Originally posted by humwha

Well im not really looking for somthing to hate just paying attention to flaws, i like alot about the game but i don't like ignoring flaws in planing because of Realism or Hardcore reasons.

This isn't a flaw, it isn't a mistake.  It is there by design, and it is at the core of what they want the game to be.  If not having a mini map is that big of a deal for you, then this just isn't the right type of game for you.

However you need to realize that just because you don't like a feature, that doesn't mean that it is a flaw.  I'm sure it will work exactly as planned.

Originally posted by humwha

Well im not really looking for somthing to hate just paying attention to flaws, i like alot about the game but i don't like ignoring flaws in planing because of Realism or Hardcore reasons.

Well the game will definately not be for everyone.   For some people they see things like instant travel, mini maps, auction houses, global banks and organized bags all as good things.   They might remember in old games how hard it was to do things, while others remember those same things as being a fun challenge.   This is really the difference in what MO wants to make, and what DF failed at doing.    Not everyone will like it,  the developers have acknowledged it many times but they feel there are a sufficient number out there that do want these things to build a game for.   Yes there will be player made maps and player made compasses,  but you might not always have such luxuries.  I suggest if you dont like the idea of getting "lost" in a modern MMO that maybe it isnt the right game?    I do not mean that in any sort of condescending way, just that everyone has different tastes. 

Originally posted by humwha

Well i consider it a flaw and im kinda worryed it might be  somthing that continues threwout the game.

From the review

"At one point, I broke off from the group to do a little solo exploring, and I quickly realized that I had no idea where I was. For me it was a really unique experience in an MMO because there was no radar in the upper corner showing me where I was on the map. There was no arrow pointing the way to go. I was actually lost, which made for a truly immersive experience, and this was only on the tiny test island we were placed on. I can only imagine what the immersion of being lost in a much larger and inhabited world would be like."

Ah somthing that looks neat on paper but flawed to the core.

Anyone remeber the reason they added minimap's to the game or playing before them?

They added them because of the inconvience factor of geting lost all the time and while you may think "aww noobs get worryed about being lost" There was a more balanced issue of giving them to everyone because that info is always feed to the client kinda has to be, and  people used custom ui to get maps and track other players.

So your enemy knew where you were and you did not, a giant issue.   So rather than give 1 side a advantage they gave it too everyone. Even tho people can still do it with having a mini-map casual players won't do it,  but a causal player will hunt for somthing like a mini map for the convenance and take the tracking as a bonus if you don't give it to them.

Issues like this in the name of being hardcore and not paying attention to the past does not give me hope for this game.

Part of the fun in a new game is getting losted and exploring.  

Have to agree with the people supporting mape making.

This isn't something an MMO has EVER done. It's a completely new feature. This is the kind of thing that will make it feel like you're actually in a world. People love realism in their entertainment, the best movies out there suck you in and make you feel like what you're watching is real. It's no different for video games.

Crafting in MO is going to be the main source for everything. Bows, arrows (dev actually took the time to respond to a thread asking about this not too long ago), sword, maps, everything. As such getting gear isn't going to be an epic undertaking. The devs have related it to something vaguely like Oblivion. You can run around and in the first twenty minutes in that game have a full set of steel gear or better if you know where to go.

MO has full loot PvP as well, which means let's say you're in a guild that has a secret base. Your guild survives on keeping this base a secret and only gives out maps with it's location marked to higher ranked members. If someone kills someone and they have their map on them then your base has been compromised. Point here though is that you can HIDE the location of your stuff, it doesn't just automatically appear on maps everywhere.

On that same full loot note, if you die and lose all of your gear, you aren't SOL. You can still get some cheaper gear or probably even free gear from friends. I like MO for the ability it could have to bring back a sense of community. I play games with my friends and what not, but I haven't played an MMO with my crew in a very long time that has made any of us feel like we actually relied on each other. The WoW-era MMO's don't really instill a sense of community, you might raid with a guild, but for the most part it's not like you really rely on a group. Nothing compared to back in the days when I played L2 and had massive betrayals go down during a siege.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Have to agree with the people supporting mape making.

 

This isn't something an MMO has EVER done. It's a completely new feature. This is the kind of thing that will make it feel like you're actually in a world. People love realism in their entertainment, the best movies out there suck you in and make you feel like what you're watching is real. It's no different for video games.

Crafting in MO is going to be the main source for everything. Bows, arrows (dev actually took the time to respond to a thread asking about this not too long ago), sword, maps, everything. As such getting gear isn't going to be an epic undertaking. The devs have related it to something vaguely like Oblivion. You can run around and in the first twenty minutes in that game have a full set of steel gear or better if you know where to go.

MO has full loot PvP as well, which means let's say you're in a guild that has a secret base. Your guild survives on keeping this base a secret and only gives out maps with it's location marked to higher ranked members. If someone kills someone and they have their map on them then your base has been compromised. Point here though is that you can HIDE the location of your stuff, it doesn't just automatically appear on maps everywhere.

On that same full loot note, if you die and lose all of your gear, you aren't SOL. You can still get some cheaper gear or probably even free gear from friends. I like MO for the ability it could have to bring back a sense of community. I play games with my friends and what not, but I haven't played an MMO with my crew in a very long time that has made any of us feel like we actually relied on each other. The WoW-era MMO's don't really instill a sense of community, you might raid with a guild, but for the most part it's not like you really rely on a group. Nothing compared to back in the days when I played L2 and had massive betrayals go down during a siege.

Great summary of why this is really a great feature... and if I find any of you giving out the location of our secret base... SMACK!

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by humwha

Well im not really looking for somthing to hate just paying attention to flaws, i like alot about the game but i don't like ignoring flaws in planing because of Realism or Hardcore reasons.

This isn't a flaw, it isn't a mistake.  It is there by design, and it is at the core of what they want the game to be.  If not having a mini map is that big of a deal for you, then this just isn't the right type of game for you.

However you need to realize that just because you don't like a feature, that doesn't mean that it is a flaw.  I'm sure it will work exactly as planned.

I kinda agree with both of you. It is not a "flaw", because that's the way it's meant to be. But It is a huge problem for me. I don't find getting lost to be fun. And fun is why I play games. There are gamers who want to be challenged, and for them that IS fun. And there are gamers who want to be entertained, and for them, that is fun.

This game is probably not for the second type...me.

Originally posted by Senadina

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by humwha

Well im not really looking for somthing to hate just paying attention to flaws, i like alot about the game but i don't like ignoring flaws in planing because of Realism or Hardcore reasons.

This isn't a flaw, it isn't a mistake.  It is there by design, and it is at the core of what they want the game to be.  If not having a mini map is that big of a deal for you, then this just isn't the right type of game for you.

However you need to realize that just because you don't like a feature, that doesn't mean that it is a flaw.  I'm sure it will work exactly as planned.

 

I kinda agree with both of you. It is not a "flaw", because that's the way it's meant to be. But It is a huge problem for me. I don't find getting lost to be fun. And fun is why I play games. There are gamers who want to be challenged, and for them that IS fun. And there are gamers who want to be entertained, and for them, that is fun.

This game is probably not for the second type...me.

I dont think the fun is getting lost.. the fun comes from the threat of getting lost, from avoiding getting yourself lost... from ganking some poor dumb sob and taking his map :)

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Senadina

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by humwha

Well im not really looking for somthing to hate just paying attention to flaws, i like alot about the game but i don't like ignoring flaws in planing because of Realism or Hardcore reasons.

This isn't a flaw, it isn't a mistake.  It is there by design, and it is at the core of what they want the game to be.  If not having a mini map is that big of a deal for you, then this just isn't the right type of game for you.

However you need to realize that just because you don't like a feature, that doesn't mean that it is a flaw.  I'm sure it will work exactly as planned.

 

I kinda agree with both of you. It is not a "flaw", because that's the way it's meant to be. But It is a huge problem for me. I don't find getting lost to be fun. And fun is why I play games. There are gamers who want to be challenged, and for them that IS fun. And there are gamers who want to be entertained, and for them, that is fun.

This game is probably not for the second type...me.

 

I dont think the fun is getting lost.. the fun comes from the threat of getting lost, from avoiding getting yourself lost... from ganking some poor dumb sob and taking his map :)

LOL

Originally posted by madeux

Great summary of why this is really a great feature... and if I find any of you giving out the location of our secret base... SMACK!

Many humans died to get us this information. :D (Mon Mothma: Many Bothans died to get us this information)

I mean this one feature could open up the ability to be a SPY. You get hired to go scout for an enemy hideout, all you have is a general location and they are killing people who venture into their territory on sight. So you have to sneak in, find their location, make a map of how to get there and (hopefully) the layout of the base and get out with the map.

Or let's say you stumble upon some ruins and inside there is a lot of treasure and other goodies that would net a lot of gold, but you don't have enough carrying cap to take it all. You have to mark the location and how you got there on your map and get back to town, sell/store the stuff you have, get pack horses and head back out there and hope no one lacking in morals spots you and wonders why you're leading pack horses into the mountains.

The chances are they are going to sell very basic maps with the location of major NPC cities on them for like five copper (whatever is cheap) from an NPC shop. Whether or not you'll be able to see yourself on the map is another matter, personally I don't care. Reading a map isn't hard, average joes have been during it for thousands of years.

This all goes back to the OPs type of gamers.  The norm now for the MMORPG genre.   I want everything without any effort or thinking involved.  

That is what this is all about.   The OP does not want to think while playing video games, he wants everything handed to him without putting in the effort.   It is what is ruining the genre.  The instant gratification crowd.

Effort does not equal time.

This is a great feature not a flaw, this will reward the smart gamer.  It will allow players to create a niche in the market.  Hidden locations, exploring, getting lost.   Those are all good things.

Originally posted by humwha

Well i consider it a flaw and im kinda worryed it might be  somthing that continues threwout the game.

From the review

"At one point, I broke off from the group to do a little solo exploring, and I quickly realized that I had no idea where I was. For me it was a really unique experience in an MMO because there was no radar in the upper corner showing me where I was on the map. There was no arrow pointing the way to go. I was actually lost, which made for a truly immersive experience, and this was only on the tiny test island we were placed on. I can only imagine what the immersion of being lost in a much larger and inhabited world would be like."

Ah somthing that looks neat on paper but flawed to the core.

Anyone remeber the reason they added minimap's to the game or playing before them?

They added them because of the inconvience factor of geting lost all the time and while you may think "aww noobs get worryed about being lost" There was a more balanced issue of giving them to everyone because that info is always feed to the client kinda has to be, and  people used custom ui to get maps and track other players.

So your enemy knew where you were and you did not, a giant issue.   So rather than give 1 side a advantage they gave it too everyone. Even tho people can still do it with having a mini-map casual players won't do it,  but a causal player will hunt for somthing like a mini map for the convenance and take the tracking as a bonus if you don't give it to them.

Issues like this in the name of being hardcore and not paying attention to the past does not give me hope for this game.

I remember the reason they added minimaps... to make more money atracting people like you. What are you doing here again? Go play any of the hundred MMOs with a minimap.