Hey everybody, I would like to warn everyone now, this is a huge post so...read if you want to but be warned.

A Game vs. A World

That right there is my biggest question. I'll say it right here just to get it over with...I want a World, Games are good but I want a World. Difference in my mind being a game is something i'll pick up and play to achieve something, whereas a world i'm satisfied with just exploring and talking to the other people doing the same thing...in the same world.

The way I look at it is this, we have our games and an example I will use is WoW and that's because it IS a great game there's really no denying it. I played it non-stop pre-BC and came back to try Wrath and played for about 7 months before giving it up again. The reason being I realized that I was playing a game, not IN a world. When I look back on EQOA and FFXI (my first two MMO's) I would log in every day non-stop for 2+ years, but it wasn't really to accomplish anything or achieve a goal. I'm not saying everybody is like this because that's generalizing and I know is already false but I will say the general consensus going around is "we all pay our $15 a month to play the same game so we're all entitled to the same thing" and IMO that's what seperates a game from a world.

I'll give an example and also some brief stories that i heard. When I played EQOA (Everquest Online Adventures on PS2) and FFXI I would log on find out where the most amount of people were and what level range I was in spamming LFG and talking or crafting to the nearby players and/or guildies. At the end of the night (usually a few hours later) I would log off when I was tired and ready to call it a night. Whether I gained 10 levels or none at all, some new uber-gear or spent more on repairs then actually made or even lost XP or a level (as was common in FFXI) I didn't care much, i would log in the next day and resume, neverending cycle and never really thinking about that next big update, or the next big dungeon, i went around, enjoyed my ONE character and had a blast exploring and IMO living in the world created by the developers, there was no real path it was kind of, here's a few quests to get you started and a general direction but it's up to you to create your own story and gameplay experience.

I hear the same from people that played EQ1 that weren't raiders as well, people that played for YEARS and never hit level cap, just had a whole lot of fun grinding/questing/trading/crafting/chatting. They would run around and find new places to go and basically LIVED in the world, not caring if they didn't get 5 levels before they logged out or not. I'm also sure that there were people the exact opposite but my encounters with them were almost non-existant.

Fast forward a few years and WoW comes out and I don't know if it was the people I managed to play with but I always felt the same from myself, my friends (even the ones that played EQ1 casually like i described above) and anybody I knew that played WoW all had one goal...hit level cap and get the best gear. "I'm going to log on and get atleast a level or two tonight and if i didn't i would work extra hard that next day and burn through to make up time lost" was my general way of thinking.

Like i said i'm not sure if it's the fault of the developers, people i was playing with or maybe even my own personality changing, i don't really know but i realise now that in EQOA and FFXI I had ONE character, and that character was who i made him and his actions reflected me IRL. In WoW i have many characters and it doesn't feel as personal as it did years ago, like i said could it be the fault of the developers, meaning it takes no time at all to level up anymore so you spend more time at max level then actually getting there and exploring stuff? My awesome Rose-Tinted Nostalgic glasses? I don't know, I'm just wondering what anybody else would think on this same subject or had similar experiences as me.

Last tidbit before I end this, I'm a HUGE fan of books...mainly fantasy and the biggest lure for me in EQOA was it seemed like i was PLAYING a fantasy book and my character was the main character of the story that I made up as I played. I just never get that feeling when I play any of the newer MMO's, although the closest that I've found to that feeling is EQ2, maybe it's just the nostalgia of Norrath that was my first MMO experience, i don't know but it's holding me over for now.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far, i'm definitely curious to other peoples' opinions.

The onset of online gaming was a great thing. It was only a matter of time that it's appeal would grow ..as well as it's fanbase....then gradually attain a "fast food " mentality. Almost everyone wanting everything....quicker and cheaper. They can't be bothered with exploration or story.  If the instruction manual ,quest text and lore had "Cliff Notes"...that would be swell.

EQ2 may be holding you over with more than just the Norrath nostalgia. It's a game where there's less of a feeling of being on rails than the other EQ variants. Crafting, collecting, leveling and all the minigame stuff makes for a nice set of diversions to log into to play around with.

I'd  venture to guess that when you log into EQ2, you probably happily ask yourself, "What do I want to do today?" whereas when you logged into WOW, you probably rarely asked that question because you were often logging in just to level grind and catch up.

Look around for the MMOs where you aren't just a smacker of things- EQ2, ATITD, Ultima Online, and Puzzle Pirates are some of the many games where you log in and decide what you want to do in the game world that day. That seems to be more your type of game.

Whoa my formatting got all messed up..

Point is-

Yes, you are nostalgic.

Seems these days many, such as myself, spend more time waxing poeticaly about the days of old or what our "ideal" MMOs would be then we actually spend time playing them.

Having played EQ1 for five years and never making it past level 33,  I'm with you %100 on this.  This is the kind of idea that needs to be encouraged, these are the conversations that need to take place.

Perhaps there really are two different genres here- "games" and "worlds", or make that:  MMORPGs and MMORPWs. 

Another thought, would you say that the term "sandbox" fits the same idea as a "world"?

I'm flying all over the place here, but sometimes I think that "leveling" or gaining XP might be a part of the problem.  if the goal is to "level" or get XP, then that possibly excludes a lot more meaningful goals like "protecting our frontier town from orcs" or whatever.  Even as I write that though, I know I am a fan of gaining levels and getting new spells and abilities, etc.  Strange.

I was writing a post on persistent worlds vs. static worlds.  I looked up and it was three pages long.  I'll let you know when I post it.  it's very much along these lines.

Good read.  Thank you for your thoughts.

I'm actually looking for the same thing as the OP: a world you can live in. Just wander around and have fun with friends. But with all the MMO's I played for at least a month I always found myself leveling like a maniac just to get to the level cap where you can get all the good looking gear and end game content. Most MMO's give you the feeling that, if you're not at the level cap, you're a noob that needs to hurry up. Most MMO's express this in the gear you are wearing: look at WoW for example. Most of you're leveling time you look like a christmas tree with all kinds of different colors. You need to reach the level cap to get some nice sets or other good looking gear.

So OP: I haven't found a game yet that really let's you live in another world like you describe. I wouldn't say it's nostalgic, I would say there just aren't many (or any) MMO's that provide our demands. It's all about end game content, uber gear and making sure everybody can get to that point as soon as possible.

Originally posted by PaulMK

Last tidbit before I end this, I'm a HUGE fan of books...mainly fantasy and the biggest lure for me in EQOA was it seemed like i was PLAYING a fantasy book and my character was the main character of the story that I made up as I played. I just never get that feeling when I play any of the newer MMO's, although the closest that I've found to that feeling is EQ2, maybe it's just the nostalgia of Norrath that was my first MMO experience, i don't know but it's holding me over for now.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far, i'm definitely curious to other peoples' opinions.

Yep same for me, I totally love being a fantasy character in a world where usually you can only go in your own mind.

I have to agree that yes many new mmos lose that magic of taking place in a world, it brings up the most common threads on these boards, casual vs hardcore, theme park vs sandbox, those are just terms I think the real issue is that we NEED to get back to our online worlds and not just games.

Create a place with all the features we've come to love in a 3D environment that is constructed as a world. I don't believe it when people say you can't have the same type of gameplay in one game, and yes I'll admit they are right, in a GAME you can't in a WORLD you totally can.

Really great post :)

What you said BarCrow about it getting a "fast food" like mentality I understand, but I think my biggest problem is the studios, I understand that WoW's success has ushered in a new age of MMO's that what i would consider as games, but I'm sure if somebody released a more "old-school" world type of MMO, as long as they did it right (which means something completely different to everybody so would be impossible to get it "right") but if it was polished (think Vanguard, but with a developement studio that actually cared about building it up not just stagnant like SoE is with it) I don't think it would fail, I know 100% it wouldn't receive WoW-like numbers, but why does everything have to have WoW-like numbers to succeed?

I understand MMO's are a business and a business makes money, but there's money to be got from all around, not just the WoW model, and I will be happily playing the best "game" on the block for months at a time going back and forth until i find a good "world" to settle into.

Here's to hoping it's not going to take 10 years.

(although I am self-teaching myself C++ now so maybe I'll come out with something in 10-15 years if nothing strikes my fancy LOL)

Hey Alcuin I really like your MMORPG vs MMRPW, i think you might be onto something there, there probably should be 2 different types especially as we get more and more of the same.

I think a "sandbox" game can be classified as a "world" if done correctly obviously, unfortunately I was never interested in DarkFall, Mortal Online might be something I might check out, but I think a well built sandbox, given enough sand and a good box could become extremely successful. Not WoW success, I really don't think we'll ever see anything like that again in this genre, who knows I could be wrong though.

The biggest thing is the way society is today, too many people running the corporations are after the biggest bucks, not the happiest customers, that's why niche games are niche games and very successful in their own rights...look at EvE, taken by itself it's extremely successful and alot of people love it, but if you start comparing it to WoW you would think "why is it still operating?" and luckily the developers are happy with what they have and aren't trying to change the gameplay to fit what will make the absolute most money.

Anyway, that's all i'll say about that because i'm not too knowledgeable and just throwing stuff out, very easy way to get many types of people pissed, especially when I kind of don't know WTF i'm talking about just going off my own perception LOL.

I would love a world game but last time I felt anything like that was in DAoC.

I completely agree with you. I don't want an online game, those are a dime a dozen and don't require $15 a month. I want an online world. A world for my virtual character to live in, explore, conquer, make friends and make enemies.

Originally posted by PaulMK

What you said BarCrow about it getting a "fast food" like mentality I understand, but I think my biggest problem is the studios, I understand that WoW's success has ushered in a new age of MMO's that what i would consider as games, but I'm sure if somebody released a more "old-school" world type of MMO, as long as they did it right (which means something completely different to everybody so would be impossible to get it "right") but if it was polished (think Vanguard, but with a developement studio that actually cared about building it up not just stagnant like SoE is with it) I don't think it would fail, I know 100% it wouldn't receive WoW-like numbers, but why does everything have to have WoW-like numbers to succeed?

I understand MMO's are a business and a business makes money, but there's money to be got from all around, not just the WoW model, and I will be happily playing the best "game" on the block for months at a time going back and forth until i find a good "world" to settle into.

Here's to hoping it's not going to take 10 years.

(although I am self-teaching myself C++ now so maybe I'll come out with something in 10-15 years if nothing strikes my fancy LOL)

I like WOW(sorry to mention it)...but if a game doesn't have even  .02  of WOW pop...it seems to be classified as a niche game at best...or a failure in the worst. Many games claim with pride of being a niche game...usually only after they realize and become resolved to the fact...that they will not likely reach  400,000 subs...much less 10,000,000. Everyone wants the big blizzard bucks at the beginning .....no matter what they say before launch. Then again...who wouldn't want that.

PaulMK I have two words for you....... Mortal Online

This is the #1 reason I've been playing EvE for so long - I do what I want, not what the devs tell me to do.  For all its failings its still the only MMO that's really nailed the sandbox formula.

Originally posted by Dakarin

PaulMK I have two words for you....... Mortal Online

Agreed.  Mortal Online is definitely a game you should be looking at.

I agree with an above poster. The last time I felt like I lived in a world was at the launch of DAOC.

I also briefly felt this way at the launch of WOW, until Blizzard really strated going the instanced PVP route.

Its funny though this is the reason I cannot bring myself to really enjoy LOTRO. I feel like its a game when it should be a world. Of all the IP's out there, LOTR is the one that should be the most world like.

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Dakarin

PaulMK I have two words for you....... Mortal Online

Agreed.  Mortal Online is definitely a game you should be looking at.

Thank you guys, i will definitely put a focus on that.

Thanks for the suggestion.

edit: added below

I agree with you 100% Templar, I tried LOTR thinking the same thing and couldn't get past the late teens, it just felt so....WoWish which isn't a bad thing, like i said I loved WoW when I played it but I'm done with it and I want something more.

I know WoW bashing is looked down upon but I wonder if I'm the only one thinking that Blizzard seems to be turning WoW into a 3d D2....which brings me to another point, they are working on a new MMO...IMO with the developers now and their track record, it would be INSANELY smart of them to keep WoW going the way it is and make an "old school" style MMO.

Why you ask? Very simple, they would OWN the ENTIRE MMO community. Everybody will undoubtedly flock to their new MMO and if they make it "old school" with a rediculous death penalty and insane XP grinds the stuff that everybody isn't so sure would fly nowadays, the people that DO like it would stay and everybody else would go back to WoW, they would have everybody under their wings.

That's what I would do if I was blizzard, but I'm sure theres a reason I'm here on this message board and not running my own company...that decision is possibly one of them, lol.

Totaly agree with this thread 100%!

I play'd FFXI for 2 and a half years, I lived in that world. I got home from work and play'd almost till I had to go back to work. got bad enough I had to quick before I got fired :(

But honestly....I want that again. (maybe I can control it better now)

anyways..I know it pathetic. But I really want that again, sure i play'd WOW. for around 5 months capped my dude. got some decent gear, but it wasn't 1/10th the fun that FFXI was. *sigh* I just hope that FFXIV is as good....

The whole game vs world point is something I have been kicking and screaming about for 2-3 years now. The majority of the developers making games (and I mean the people in the trenches, not the CEOs rushing them) either never played any of the first gen MMOs that were more world-like or didn't pay attention if they did. It's either that or their first MMO was WoW and that's all they know. All the folks who have played AD&D (not to be confused with D&D 3.X and on) table top and that know what it means to create a world vs a game are either in management and can't affect the games or are here on the outside with us as gamers.

In my view, WoW was a curse. The MMO genre wouldn't have died without it. It wouldn't have been as popular, sure, but it would have had a far better chance at continuing the production of Worlds versus these "accessible, solo-dominant, marker over npc's head" games.

Nothing about EQ really made it any more of a world compared to WOW besides a bunch of time sinks that were removed or severely lessened to make them palapable.  And if you think having to wait in line in dungeons, wait for a boat for a 1/2 hr or sit around for 5 minutes to regen your mana after every fight makes a game a world, good luck to you and your nostalgic, first game, cherry popping delusions=)