Aventurine's June 24th, 2009 announcement of the impending launch of the North American server caused quite a bit of uproar on both the official boards and the forums here at mmorpg.com.  There's a lot of rage towards Aventurine and Tasos Flambouras, but is it justified? Were players ever promised a free transfer from one server/region to another?  Why wasn't the game launched in North America at the same time?

Per Tasos (source):

07-29-2008, 11:11 AM

Tasos Darkfall Developer   Join Date: Jan 2003

European vs. N. America Launch The answer to the question on whether we're going to launch in N. America and Europe at the same time is: "Right now it doesn't look that way" I’ve been frustrated by issues like these while waiting for a game myself, and I’ll try to explain this as well as I can: First of all, this isn’t an issue of us being located in Europe. It just means that things are moving faster for Darkfall in Europe. A few months ago, it was the other way around and that’s how fluid things are at the moment. It would be a publishing and a logistics issue that the European launch might precede a N. American launch. We have a publishing partner in Europe; we haven’t settled on one in N. America yet. Unfortunately as things stand right now, we can’t launch in both regions at the same exact time but, of course, we would like to. While the actual status on this hasn’t changed much since our friends visited our offices, things are moving at a fast pace. What we can say with relative certainty is that the first beta test will be on the European servers. This isn’t to say that N. American players will be excluded from it. It also doesn’t necessarily mean that N. American players would be excluded from playing on a European server. While we haven’t selected a publisher in N. America yet like we have in Europe, this doesn’t actually mean that we need one, or that we're going to wait for one, in order to launch the game there. Our publishing effort has been for a common infrastructure and we’ve been adopting solutions with a global reach so that the setup in one region could be shared by- or quickly duplicated in the other. I don’t want to say that we could be up in N. America in no time, but that’s our intention. It’s important to remember that our preferred scenario is to launch Darkfall in N. America and Europe at the same time. This is on our mind as we move forward. Even if we don’t manage this, it’s our intention to move very quickly to catch up. Discuss it here: http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=61040 __________________ Last edited by Biggs; 07-29-2008 at 03:14 PM.. Reason: Adding General Discussion link.

Nowhere in this statement does he promise free transfers.   He does reference the fact that Aventurine hasn't yet acquired a North American publisher, but also states that a publisher isn't necessarily required (self-publishing is, therefore, implied).

Then, there's this statement (source):

02-18-2009, 09:39 PM
Tasos Darkfall Developer   Join Date: Jan 2003	Darkfall Information Update February 18 ... Players in North America are welcome to participate in the European Launch. The plans for US servers aren’t finalized at the time of this announcement. We will offer the option for character migration to US servers for N. American players who wish to use it.    ... __________________ Last edited by Tasos; 02-18-2009 at 10:18 PM..

This is after the initial launch for Europe was supposed to happen, but prior to the actual launch.  He says that North American players will be given the option to migrate, but doesn't provide any details nor does he state it will be free.

Per this statement last month (source):

05-27-2009, 05:40 PM
Tasos Darkfall Developer   Join Date: Jan 2003	Darkfall information update May 27th ... North American Server Many of you saw the announcement our server hosting partner GNI made about the signing of our cooperation in North America.  We had already explained that we would be launching in North America sometime during Q2 2009 and this information is also in the FAQ: We will be making our own announcement when we nail down an exact launch date for the NA server, there are a couple of things which may affect the launch date by a few days that are not ironed out completely yet. Character transfer/cloning will become available with a significant delay (months) and possible further restrictions. This concerns only the characters without any of their possessions. More on this at a later date.  There are several considerations to be taken into account including the fact that European rights and North American rights to Darkfall belong to different organizations.   ... Thank you for Reading, The Darkfall Team __________________ Last edited by Tasos; 05-27-2009 at 06:09 PM..

This announcement came well after news of the impending North American server launch was announced by Darkfall hosting providier GNi.  It's a little condescending, not very timely and doesn't provide much info, but there are some key points:

• "Character transfer/cloning will become available with a significant delay (months) and possible further restrictions." - This doesn't say "free" anywhere.  If anything, it actually implies a cost.
• "European rights and North American rights to Darkfall belong to different organizations." This implies that there are separate publishers for Europe (AudioVisual) and North America (unnamed publisher).  This is not unprecedented.  LotRO is published by Codemasters in Europe and Turbine in the US.  WAR is published by GOA in Europe and EA in North America.  In either case, you need a license to play in each region and there are separate account and billing systems for each region, due to the different publishers.

Lastly, there is the announcement on June 24th, 2009 (source) and it's follow up::

Yesterday, 07:24 PM
Tasos Darkfall Developer   Join Date: Jan 2003	Update June 24 On the American server: The American server will launch on July 7th. Characters from the European server can be cloned and moved without their possessions 3 months after the American launch. Certain restrictions and charges will apply, to be announced at a later date. In the meanwhile if you want to play on the American server at launch you need to buy the American Darkfall client. More information on the American server will be available in a few days. ... Thank you for reading The Darkfall Team Darkfall Account Management and Sales Darkfall Support and Help Desk Player Journal and Clan Pages __________________ Last edited by Tasos; Yesterday at 07:34 PM..

Yesterday, 08:19 PM

Tasos Darkfall Developer   Join Date: Jan 2003

Clarification Clarification: American players wanting to clone and transfer their characters do not have to buy another client. Everyone else needs to buy the American Darkfall client to play on the American server. The European rights and the American rights to Darkfall do not belong to the same company, therefore you cannot freely transfer between the two territories, as is the case with most MMORPGs. Our offer of character cloning / transfer to American players is because we had said that we would try to accommodate them should they want to start playing on the European server. __________________ Last edited by Tasos; Yesterday at 08:20 PM..

The primary points of these statements are:

• Players will be offered the chance to transfer 3 months after the North American server launches.  There will be charges and restrictions.
• Players who want to create new characters and play at launch will need to buy Darkfall for North America.  Tasos explicitly says "client", but it would be more accurate to say "license", since you don't actually buy game software.  You buy the license to use it. 
• Rights to publish the game for each region belong to different entities.

All of this is business as usual.  Players aren't being denied anything they were "promised" and Aventurine doesn't seem to be doing anything underhanded:

• Other game companies have different publishers for different regions
• Players need to subscribe to and pay for access to the games explicitly for those regions in the examples I gave (LotRO and WAR)

What's relatively unusual in this case is that Darkfall, an "international" game that's already localized for English, is being launched in an English speaking region months after it was launched and playable in another English speaking region.  Games like RoM and CoH launch in different regions at different times due to localization issues.  With Darkfall, the delayed launch seems to be due to the prior lack of a North American publisher, not the game, itself.

That being said, I do think this is a PR nightmare for Aventurine due to their handling of the situation and their announcements.  The rights belong to different entities?  We know that AudioVisual holds publishing rights in Europe, but who holds the rights for North America?  Why hasn't a publisher been announced?  The lack of a publisher announcement implies that Aventurine is going to self-publish Darkfall in Nroth America.  This means they'll get ALL the money for Darkfall, whereas a publisher would only get a percentage. If that's the case, it truly does seem like a greedy money grab by Aventurine.  If it's not the case, it's imperitive that Aventurine announce their publishing partner else risk ostracizing their player base even further.

The manner in which Aventurine and Tasos have handled the announcements is terrible.  Even though they aren't reneging on promises, they're handling the situation poorly.  Why should any of this be up to debate?  Why should players like myself have to attempt to clarify the situation for others?  It should be crystal clear.  Tasos should have referenced how this is business as usual for game companies, he should announce the publisher or state that Aventurine is self publishing.  By providing clear information, he could have avoided the storm of rage now progressing through various internet sites and mitigated the risk of losing both a significant chunk of existing players and, possibly, disgusted potential players.

So, to answer the initial question "There's a lot of rage towards Aventurine and Tasos Flambouras, but is it justified?", I'd say "Yes and No".  Anger towards Aventurine regarding different publishers and the costs associated to each of them isn't justified.  It's business as usual.  Being upset, however, at Tasos' inept handling of the situation is probably justified.

~Ripper

The real bottom line here to me is this.

If Taso lied what is one to actually do other than complain about it?

There are several options like throwing cender blocks at cars but most of them boil down to two options

1. play the game.

2. not play the game.

If out of all the things on the planet to be principled enough about people find this specific one so horrific that they would perfer not to have fun playing a game they like, then I guess it is what it is.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

The real bottom line here to me is this.

If Taso lied what is one to actually do other than complain about it?

There are several options like throwing cender blocks at cars but most of them boil down to two options

1. play the game.

2. not play the game.

If out of all the things on the planet to be principled enough about people find this specific one so horrific that they would perfer not to have fun playing a game they like, then I guess it is what it is.

 

He didn't lie and he hasn't reneged on promises (unless there are other quotes I can't find), which was one of the points I tried to make through various news posts.  He hasn't handled the announcements well and there's still the question of who the North American publisher is, but he didn't lie.  Anybody who has followed MMOs should have seen this coming.  Those who don't or are new the genre are justifiably confused and upset, but why should other players have to clarify the situation for them?  That's the real issue - Tasos' mismanaged communication.

Then again, if Aventurine is self-publishing in NA, that's another issue entirely, as I mentioned above.

Ultimately, you're right, though.  Players can choose to play or not play, pay or not pay.

~Ripper

Thank you for posting these quotes. I have to say you are correct in that it was not handled correctly, but in the first quote it clearly says they will have a different publisher for the NA client. Which should have led people to understand you would need to purchase it through them.

Even is they launched it in NA w/o a publisher in NA at the same time as EU, it is not suggested it would be using the same client as the EU publisher, which would be the same conclusion of having 2 seperate clients.

How ever vauge AV was with people, I think they just assumed to much and didn't read what was actualy writen.

From where i sit, its really a case of "no harm, no foul".

There's nothing really unusual or unfair about this annoucement, other than it appears the NA players were expecting to be ablt to transfer freely and that won't be the case.

If you really like playing the game that much, you'll either stay on the EU box or ...buy it again.

Originally posted by Kyleran

From where i sit, its really a case of "no harm, no foul".

There's nothing really unusual or unfair about this annoucement, other than it appears the NA players were expecting to be ablt to transfer freely and that won't be the case.

If you really like playing the game that much, you'll either stay on the EU box or ...buy it again.

 

Negative. NA players, in fact all players including the Europeans, were promised specifically that they could play on all servers with a single account. Aventurine welched on that deal. The foul is if you want to play on more than one server you must buy acounts for each server. Were there ever to be more than one European or North American server you would still have to buy more than one subscription. That is not and has never been standard practice for any company I am aware of. The harm is you must pay twice to play on two servers. If they ever had three servers you would have to pay three times.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Kyleran

From where i sit, its really a case of "no harm, no foul".

There's nothing really unusual or unfair about this annoucement, other than it appears the NA players were expecting to be ablt to transfer freely and that won't be the case.

If you really like playing the game that much, you'll either stay on the EU box or ...buy it again.

 

 

Negative. NA players, in fact all players including the Europeans, were promised specifically that they could play on all servers with a single account. Aventurine welched on that deal. The foul is if you want to play on more than one server you must buy acounts for each server. Were there ever to be more than one European or North American server you would still have to buy more than one subscription. That is not and has never been standard practice for any company I am aware of. The harm is you must pay twice to play on two servers. If they ever had three servers you would have to pay three times.

While I agree thats an odd way to do things, I do not see the relivance. This is not a question of servers, it's an issue with who is providing the service. If they are using 2 different publishers (which they have said they are doing), then this argument is flawed.

It's like buying a book at 1 store and trying to return it to a different store. Sure the book is the same, but you need to pay the store front for thier service.

Originally posted by Nicksd

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Kyleran

From where i sit, its really a case of "no harm, no foul".

There's nothing really unusual or unfair about this annoucement, other than it appears the NA players were expecting to be ablt to transfer freely and that won't be the case.

If you really like playing the game that much, you'll either stay on the EU box or ...buy it again.

 

 

Negative. NA players, in fact all players including the Europeans, were promised specifically that they could play on all servers with a single account. Aventurine welched on that deal. The foul is if you want to play on more than one server you must buy acounts for each server. Were there ever to be more than one European or North American server you would still have to buy more than one subscription. That is not and has never been standard practice for any company I am aware of. The harm is you must pay twice to play on two servers. If they ever had three servers you would have to pay three times.

 

While I agree thats an odd way to do things, I do not see the relivance. This is not a question of servers, it's an issue with who is providing the service. If they are using 2 different publishers (which they have said they are doing), then this argument is flawed.

It's like buying a book at 1 store and trying to return it to a different store. Sure the book is the same, but you need to pay the store front for thier service.

It's not an issue of service providers. It's an issue of they blatantly lied and now you must pay for a new account for each server no matter where it is. Read their updated FAQ. If some day there are two servers, in any location, you must pay for a new account for each you wish to play on. If there were two NA servers you would still have to buy two accounts to play on both. If there were five you would have to buy five accounts to play on each. As far as I can determine there is no way to purchase a new subscription without repurchasing the entire game. So you will pay the full $50+, again, to play on more than one server no matter where you, or  they, are located.

I can understand a nominal fee for a transfer. I can even understand a nominal fee for playing on a different provider's network. I do not understand charging people the full amount for each and every server they wish to play on. Unless you take advantage of this offer to wait for months. Even if you delete your toon to play on the NA server at opening you must pay full price. If you do transfer, according to their FAQ you will no longer have access to the EU=1 server without purchasing another account. What company has ever done this?

 These are really two distinct issues, Zy:

• One char/server now being referenced as one char/account
• Publishers and servers for different regions

I can aboslutely see being upset about  the first.  Even though there's only ever been one server for Europe, I think players hoped additional servers would be added, thereby giving them the ability to have multiple characters, one/server.  Changing the text implies there won't ever be more than one sever/region, which is disheartening.  If there were multiple servers/region and Aventurine still only allowed a single character, that'd be ridiculous, IMO. As of now, however, the point is moot.  it doesn't really matter whether text says one char/server or one char/account, since there's only one server for that publisher. 

That being said, it's a completely separate issue than what's happening now, which is that the game is being published by two different entities, AudioVisual and an unnamed publisher, each of which has rights to their specific regions.

Regarding this quote "If you do transfer, according to their FAQ you will no longer have access to the EU=1 server without purchasing another account. What company has ever done this?", please post a link, because I can't find it in the FAQ.  There are a lot of comments being flung about, many of which aren't true, which is one of the reasons I created this thread.  Even if you transfer a character from the EU server to the NA server, what's to stop you from creating a new character on the EU server?  You paid for the EU license, so if you continue to subscribe to the EU game, you could still play. Granted, you'd be subscribing to the game twice, once for each region/publisher, but you would do the same in other games like LotRO and WAR, too.  Why you'd want to do that, however, is questionable.

~Ripper

 To me it seems pretty simple, you bought the client for the euro server, which seems to be heavily populated by NA players (note: I realize many say the population is currently dropped significantly), so stay on the euro client. Chances are there will not be many sales in NA since they have already bought the thing for the other place. It has been long enough that I can't see the purpose in purchasing one license if you already own the other. According to reports I have seen on this site, performance has not been much of an issue whn logging in from over here. The only appeal to the new server is a fresh start.

Darkfall's stock (player interest) has tanked over the past few months, which is kinda why I stopped posting on the subject. I just assumed it better to let it die slowly. It's not like NA gamers don't know what to expect. They have played the game. I don't see why they would spend another $60 / 50 quid to experience the same thing again. The fact that nailing down a host here in the US should be a indicator as to how badly the game is doing, I mean if it is doing well, there are unlimited resources here to host a single server. Especially when your method of distribution is a torrent. Torrents are easy, bandwidth is relatively cheap, and decent hosting should be accessible.

I do understand the separate publishers issue, I am just surprised it did not occur to them to recruit a publisher that could host in both locations. I do think double charging customers is a bait, but looking at AV history, I am not surprised in the least. People were warned about this type of behavior from AV though. So, I guess you enjoy what you already have, or pony up for something that is somehow supposed to be better (I don't see how though). It's the players choise. Thankfully. I'll have 100US for more brew, because I decided not to drink the overprices kool-aid.

@OP  

Why did you not post the original DF FAQ that states you only need to purchase one account to play on any DF server?   I think that is the what has gotten everyone ruffled.  

Originally posted by rhinok

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

The real bottom line here to me is this.

If Taso lied what is one to actually do other than complain about it?

There are several options like throwing cender blocks at cars but most of them boil down to two options

1. play the game.

2. not play the game.

If out of all the things on the planet to be principled enough about people find this specific one so horrific that they would perfer not to have fun playing a game they like, then I guess it is what it is.

 

He didn't lie and he hasn't reneged on promises (unless there are other quotes I can't find), which was one of the points I tried to make through various news posts.  He hasn't handled the announcements well and there's still the question of who the North American publisher is, but he didn't lie.  Anybody who has followed MMOs should have seen this coming.  Those who don't or are new the genre are justifiably confused and upset, but why should other players have to clarify the situation for them?  That's the real issue - Tasos' mismanaged communication.

Then again, if Aventurine is self-publishing in NA, that's another issue entirely, as I mentioned above.

Ultimately, you're right, though.  Players can choose to play or not play, pay or not pay.

~Ripper

I think this is an important quote to include in this discussion:
 

"Our first release is the European release. The North American release will follow as soon as possible but not until a few months later. We’re allowing players from N. America to participate in the European release due to this fact. Of course we’ll make some allowances for these players if they would like to move to the US server when it launches."

Quote by Tasos from TTH interview 1-15-09 (A week before the first scheduled launch day).

www.tentonhammer.com/node/61490

I guess I am curious as to what "allowances" are being made "when it launches".

Is 3 months after the server launches, "when it launches"? 

I think most would say no.

Is paying full price for a second client "when it launches" an "allowance"? 

I think most would say no.

So where is this promised "allowance" at the time of "when it launches"?

I fail to see what the "allowance" is at the time the server is launching.  Perhaps someone else can point out what the allowance is.  Surely 3 months after the server has been launched is not "when it launches"... right?

i realy wonder if that Tasos guy can show his face with another title/company ever again. IMO hes done  in this buisness

Originally posted by CoffeeGrunt

i realy wonder if that Tasos guy can show his face with another title/company ever again. IMO hes done  in this buisness

Heh... well that part was already a given even before DarkFall was Released. 

To the op. I do understand where your comming from but you are quite missing the big picture.

Av waited a good while before notifying its customers. The same thing they did when the nda was released 1week before darkfall went gold.(corrected ty xzyax)

Same thing here,  I damn knew well long ago that gni was going to host the game un the us. Av damn well knew  also. Why wait till now to announce their buisness on the na server when they could have announced it long ago even if they couldnt have announce a date of the na server?  players would have been prepared and others wait for the release. they would have been happy.

what many people are seeing from the last tasos post was: new server on july 7, you have to buy the game . anyone who just got a euro copy in hopes of going to the na server just go shafted and teabagged by all of AV.

All i know is ncsoft announce long ago the price of their game and monthly fee for their new game aion.

Originally posted by maxnrosy

To the op. I do understand where your comming from but you are quite missing the big picture.

 

Av waited a good while before notifying its customers. The same thing they did when the nda was released 2 weeks before darkfall went gold.

Same thing here,  I damn knew well long ago that gni was going to host the game un the us. Av damn well knew  also. Why wait till now to announce their buisness on the na server when they could have announced it long ago even if they couldnt have announce a date of the na server?  players would have been prepared and others wait for the release. they would have been happy.

what many people are seeing from the last tasos post was: new server on july 7, you have to buy the game . anyone who just got a euro copy in hopes of going to the na server just go shafted and teabagged by all of AV.

All i know is ncsoft announce long ago the price of their game and monthly fee for their new game aion.

 

 

Actually it was 1 week.
 

NDA lifted 2-18-09

forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php

Release was 2-25-09

(Granted the only players that got to actually play on 2-25-09 were those living a bit West of Hawaii). 

I've seen people defend Turbine, SOE, Blizzard, etc who have done far worse things.  Really, I see a buncha nitpicking here, something to grasp at to justify their rage against Tasos and Adventurine.  Heck, even after fully explaining it, many of the complainers in this thread still don't seem to understand what is being said and done.  Blindly, they march on in their crusade against Tasos and Adventurine.

Personally, I'm glad they are waiting months (and charging a fee which will most definately be much smaller than purchasing a new license) before they allow EU server players to transfer their characters to NA.  That means that people, like myself, will have a fresh start and have a foot hold on the NA servers without everything already taken or people already having well established guilds and the game's server dictated.

This, overall (even if presented poorly by Tasos) is something I WANT AND I LIKE!

So, in the end, I'm giving Adventurine a B+ for this move.

Originally posted by Dethnoble

I've seen people defend Turbine, SOE, Blizzard, etc who have done far worse things.  Really, I see a buncha nitpicking here, something to grasp at to justify their rage against Tasos and Adventurine.  Heck, even after fully explaining it, many of the complainers in this thread still don't seem to understand what is being said and done.  Blindly, they march on in their crusade against Tasos and Adventurine.

Personally, I'm glad they are waiting months (and charging a fee which will most definately be much smaller than purchasing a new license) before they allow EU server players to transfer their characters to NA.  That means that people, like myself, will have a fresh start and have a foot hold on the NA servers without everything already taken or people already having well established guilds and the game's server dictated.

This, overall (even if presented poorly by Tasos) is something I WANT AND I LIKE!

So, in the end, I'm giving Adventurine a B+ for this move.

Yeah, we've heard it before...

Let us know how you feel about it the second week of October. 

I'll still be here, as long as mmorpg.com is around.  You may have noticed that very few ardent supporters of DarkFall from Release are still around and playing the game.

Anyway, good luck on the NA server.  I hope you are treated well. 

Originally posted by xzyax

I think this is an important quote to include in this discussion:
 

"Our first release is the European release. The North American release will follow as soon as possible but not until a few months later. We’re allowing players from N. America to participate in the European release due to this fact. Of course we’ll make some allowances for these players if they would like to move to the US server when it launches."

Quote by Tasos from TTH interview 1-15-09 (A week before the first scheduled launch day).

www.tentonhammer.com/node/61490

 

I guess I am curious as to what "allowances" are being made "when it launches".

Is 3 months after the server launches, "when it launches"? 

I think most would say no.

Is paying full price for a second client "when it launches" an "allowance"? 

I think most would say no.

 

So where is this promised "allowance" at the time of "when it launches"?

I fail to see what the "allowance" is at the time the server is launching.  Perhaps someone else can point out what the allowance is.  Surely 3 months after the server has been launched is not "when it launches"... right?

All he's saying in that quote is they will allow players to transfer from the EU server to the NA server.

~Ripper