Originally posted by calmness

 <Mod Edit>

I'm not being defensive here, I'm asking a legitimate question: How are you coming to the conclusion that TOR will be bad?

I'm one of the few people out there that can usually size up things pretty accurately. I can't even tell if TOR is going to be average, let alone good or bad. There isn't enough information to make such a judgement call at this time. All we have are 'this is' and 'we want' or 'that will be' supositional and vague statements from the devs and speculation from the fans.

We know it will be "story oriented". That could mean almost anything. Moral choices and alignment for each character are included with this. Again, we have no idea what the hell that means.

There will be companion characters. Alright, cool, I think it's a bad idea, but I have no idea if it's good or bad because I have no idea what it actually means. I have theories, but zero facts, so I can't say one way or the other and have it be fact.

So far the only facts we have are the names of three classes, some bits of storyline and some ability info - that's it. That's not enough information to judge how the game might be in any solid basis. Meaning all you guys have are inuendo and suppositions of your own that may or may not turn out to be fact and you're getting all huffy over them. Translation: You're getting mad over what could be nothing, eg a complete waste of effort.

I have no idea how the game will be. I don't really care, if it's good then I'll have something to play, if not then I'm not personally adversly affected. No one can say with any certainty how the game will be, there is not enough information out there. The game is still in Alpha and you can't even sign up for beta yet. Stop getting all worked up over baseless assumptions.

-If- Bioware releases factual information, not vague statements, that is a genuinely bad idea then feel free. So far they have released pretty generic facts. Class info on three of the supposed eight classes.....hardly indicators of the game at large.

If Bioware were smart about it, and it doesn't feel like they are going down that road, they'd combine awesome storytelling with, yes, sandbox gameplay. You can have both, big surprise there.

But if they go down the themepark alley, then TOR is practically doomed. It has nothing to do with quality. MMO's can thrive on two things - social hype, the "everyone plays it!" mentality, which only a few games achieve by the virtue of sheer chance, and replayability.

And nothing beats a sandbox when it comes to replayability. The problem with sandbox designs is that usually they require players to get involved in some way in order to create content for themselves - hence the term. You get the sand, you've got to build your own castles.

This is something most gamers are not willing to do.

But, as I said, you can have both. You can have a sandbox where you are not constantly guided along on pre-scripted tracks, boxed in by a rigid class system or forced to play in a world bounded by artificial, immersion-breaking limitations; AND have a deep, meaningful storyline to enjoy.

Do I hope for this in TOR? Yes... but its a cynical type of hope. All the information they released so far points to the same old rehashed-to-death themepark style MMO with Star Wars flavor. If it turns out as such, it will have a great reception, and pretty much simmer down to a gentle and barely visible spark next to the still roaring inferno of WoW. Because WoW sucks up all the social hype. And WoW does not do that because its somehow a mega-brilliant game, but because it was in the right place at the right time.

All the developers that are trying to take a piece of that pie simply do not realize that the result can NOT be repeated by making a "better" product of the same type. The sooner they give up on that and start trying to actually be original in their game design, the better.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by calmness

<Mod Edit>

 

I'm not being defensive here, I'm asking a legitimate question: How are you coming to the conclusion that TOR will be bad?

I'm one of the few people out there that can usually size up things pretty accurately. I can't even tell if TOR is going to be average, let alone good or bad. There isn't enough information to make such a judgement call at this time. All we have are 'this is' and 'we want' or 'that will be' supositional and vague statements from the devs and speculation from the fans.

We know it will be "story oriented". That could mean almost anything. Moral choices and alignment for each character are included with this. Again, we have no idea what the hell that means.

There will be companion characters. Alright, cool, I think it's a bad idea, but I have no idea if it's good or bad because I have no idea what it actually means. I have theories, but zero facts, so I can't say one way or the other and have it be fact.

So far the only facts we have are the names of three classes, some bits of storyline and some ability info - that's it. That's not enough information to judge how the game might be in any solid basis. Meaning all you guys have are inuendo and suppositions of your own that may or may not turn out to be fact and you're getting all huffy over them. Translation: You're getting mad over what could be nothing, eg a complete waste of effort.

I have no idea how the game will be. I don't really care, if it's good then I'll have something to play, if not then I'm not personally adversly affected. No one can say with any certainty how the game will be, there is not enough information out there. The game is still in Alpha and you can't even sign up for beta yet. Stop getting all worked up over baseless assumptions.

-If- Bioware releases factual information, not vague statements, that is a genuinely bad idea then feel free. So far they have released pretty generic facts. Class info on three of the supposed eight classes.....hardly indicators of the game at large.

You're my new hero. I've been saying this exact thing for weeks but not nearly as well as you just did. You hit the nail on the head. Will it sink in with the haters? Probably not. Because they're determined to slam and to hate whether its based on facts or not.

Originally posted by maximot
<Mod Edit>

I see calmness (or lack of) is back with an alt. xD

Originally posted by illorion

i was hoping that this game would be kinda like eve except avatar based and the quests wouldnt be horribly boring. However after reading all the dev crap i realize that it wont be what i was hoping for. SWG except with better combat and customization. However it looks like its gonna be one of those linear hand holding games

Bring examples of "dev crap" if you want legitimate responses, otherwise expect to get flammed by bashing a game with such a huge fan base.

Originally posted by calmness

Originally posted by naraku209

Originally posted by calmness

 

You seem to think that people who raise objections to what has so far been revealed about this game do so because it seems like it's going to be a KOTOR-style limited themepark online rather than a SWG-style sandbox.

That's not the case for many people.

Some of us don't mind it being a KOTOR-style online limited themepark - what we are worried about is that it's going to be a bad online limited themepark.

You've got to let your 'all SWG vets want ToR to be SWG' paranoia go.

 

 

Indeed, People are wanting and are expecting ToR to be SWG, and it won't and that is not what they want so get over it, ToR will be amazing, it probably not be like kotor  either. it will be something completely different.

 

No, I said the precise - precise! - opposite of that.

Most SWG Vets don't care that ToR is not going to be SWG 2.

We care that, as mature gamers, we're going to be asked to pay for and then rent what seems to be shaping up to be a bad limited themepark game. If it was going to be a good themepark game, we wouldn't mind. Bad game = bad. Get it? And here, in these discussion forums, we are allowed to express that view. Deal with it.

 

It's true, he's allowed to express his view, regardless of how ignorant and uninformed it is.  If he wants to preach about the doom of a game based on very, very limited information, then he certainly can do that.

He just needs to realize that we're allowed to express our opinions that his views are misinformed and a waste of our time.

Originally posted by maximot
<Mod Edit>

Curious to see you contradict yourself within the 6 posts you made so far. Let's see how many more you come up with in your various incarnations, eh?

Originally posted by maximot

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by calmness

Originally posted by naraku209

Indeed, People are wanting and are expecting ToR to be SWG, and it won't and that is not what they want so get over it, ToR will be amazing, it probably not be like kotor  either. it will be something completely different.

 

No, I said the precise - precise! - opposite of that.

Most SWG Vets don't care that ToR is not going to be SWG 2.

We care that, as mature gamers, we're going to be asked to pay for and then rent what seems to be shaping up to be a bad limited themepark game. If it was going to be a good themepark game, we wouldn't mind. Bad game = bad. Get it? And here, in these discussion forums, we are allowed to express that view. Deal with it.

 

It's true, he's allowed to express his view, regardless of how ignorant and uninformed it is.  If he wants to preach about the doom of a game based on very, very limited information, then he certainly can do that.

He just needs to realize that we're allowed to express our opinions that his views are misinformed and a waste of our time.

 

By the same token, his view might be that you're a pompous, humourless discussion-killing little forum flamer, mindlessly abusing any poster whio doesn't agree with you as you shill for a game that is going to be sub-par.

And having read your post, I would agree with him.

:lol:

Is that what passes for an insult around here?  I'm bored, so let us look more closely at this post.

Pompous?  Absoutely. 

Humourless? I have an excellent, albeit evil, sense of humor.

Discusission-killing: Clearly I was keeping the discussion going.

Little: To be honest, I could use to lose a few pounds.

Forum-Flamer: I speak my mind, and if offends a couple of asshats, oh well.

Mindlessly Abusing:  I do nothing mindlessly, and I hardly see  one little post as abuse.

A game that is going to be sub-par:  Your'e obviously just as ignorant as the others, making baseless accusations about a game you know nothing about.

You agree with him:  You two should get together and hold hands while skipping in the park to celebrate.

Originally posted by illorion

i was hoping that this game would be kinda like eve except avatar based and the quests wouldnt be horribly boring. However after reading all the dev crap i realize that it wont be what i was hoping for. SWG except with better combat and customization. However it looks like its gonna be one of those linear hand holding games

Dear god I hope it's NOTHING like EVE. I'd take a poorly done WoW clone over something like EVE Online.

Originally posted by law573

Originally posted by illorion

i was hoping that this game would be kinda like eve except avatar based and the quests wouldnt be horribly boring. However after reading all the dev crap i realize that it wont be what i was hoping for. SWG except with better combat and customization. However it looks like its gonna be one of those linear hand holding games

 

Dear god I hope it's NOTHING like EVE. I'd take a poorly done WoW clone over something like EVE Online.

its surprising how many people with single digit IQ's would agree with you...

Originally posted by Moirae

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by calmness

<Mod Edit>

 

I'm not being defensive here, I'm asking a legitimate question: How are you coming to the conclusion that TOR will be bad?

I'm one of the few people out there that can usually size up things pretty accurately. I can't even tell if TOR is going to be average, let alone good or bad. There isn't enough information to make such a judgement call at this time. All we have are 'this is' and 'we want' or 'that will be' supositional and vague statements from the devs and speculation from the fans.

We know it will be "story oriented". That could mean almost anything. Moral choices and alignment for each character are included with this. Again, we have no idea what the hell that means.

There will be companion characters. Alright, cool, I think it's a bad idea, but I have no idea if it's good or bad because I have no idea what it actually means. I have theories, but zero facts, so I can't say one way or the other and have it be fact.

So far the only facts we have are the names of three classes, some bits of storyline and some ability info - that's it. That's not enough information to judge how the game might be in any solid basis. Meaning all you guys have are inuendo and suppositions of your own that may or may not turn out to be fact and you're getting all huffy over them. Translation: You're getting mad over what could be nothing, eg a complete waste of effort.

I have no idea how the game will be. I don't really care, if it's good then I'll have something to play, if not then I'm not personally adversly affected. No one can say with any certainty how the game will be, there is not enough information out there. The game is still in Alpha and you can't even sign up for beta yet. Stop getting all worked up over baseless assumptions.

-If- Bioware releases factual information, not vague statements, that is a genuinely bad idea then feel free. So far they have released pretty generic facts. Class info on three of the supposed eight classes.....hardly indicators of the game at large.

You're my new hero. I've been saying this exact thing for weeks but not nearly as well as you just did. You hit the nail on the head. Will it sink in with the haters? Probably not. Because they're determined to slam and to hate whether its based on facts or not.

Yep.. all us doubters stand corrected.. How dare us jump to a conclusion based on what info we have..   Granted I may not have actually tasted the new sandwich by Bioware.. But since two of the incredients are anchovy and peanut butter.. How dare I jump to the conclusion that it would suck..

The fact is that gaming companies deliberiately release vaque info to generate hype and speculation.. IF Bioware wants to play that game they have to suffer the negatives as well.. :)  

Simple, find another game if you think its gonna suck. No one cares if your here or not, TOR will be the greatest mmo to ever hit the net, you can count on that!

Originally posted by ManSh00ter

If Bioware were smart about it, and it doesn't feel like they are going down that road, they'd combine awesome storytelling with, yes, sandbox gameplay. You can have both, big surprise there.

But if they go down the themepark alley, then TOR is practically doomed. It has nothing to do with quality. MMO's can thrive on two things - social hype, the "everyone plays it!" mentality, which only a few games achieve by the virtue of sheer chance, and replayability.

And nothing beats a sandbox when it comes to replayability. The problem with sandbox designs is that usually they require players to get involved in some way in order to create content for themselves - hence the term. You get the sand, you've got to build your own castles.

This is something most gamers are not willing to do.

But, as I said, you can have both. You can have a sandbox where you are not constantly guided along on pre-scripted tracks, boxed in by a rigid class system or forced to play in a world bounded by artificial, immersion-breaking limitations; AND have a deep, meaningful storyline to enjoy.

Do I hope for this in TOR? Yes... but its a cynical type of hope. All the information they released so far points to the same old rehashed-to-death themepark style MMO with Star Wars flavor. If it turns out as such, it will have a great reception, and pretty much simmer down to a gentle and barely visible spark next to the still roaring inferno of WoW. Because WoW sucks up all the social hype. And WoW does not do that because its somehow a mega-brilliant game, but because it was in the right place at the right time.

All the developers that are trying to take a piece of that pie simply do not realize that the result can NOT be repeated by making a "better" product of the same type. The sooner they give up on that and start trying to actually be original in their game design, the better.

Sorry, but...

This guy wins this thread.

/thread

Originally posted by law573

Originally posted by illorion

i was hoping that this game would be kinda like eve except avatar based and the quests wouldnt be horribly boring. However after reading all the dev crap i realize that it wont be what i was hoping for. SWG except with better combat and customization. However it looks like its gonna be one of those linear hand holding games

 

Dear god I hope it's NOTHING like EVE. I'd take a poorly done WoW clone over something like EVE Online.

There is the this great idiomatic expression in the English language that goes something like....

"Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."

I think that this expression applies to this, above quoted, case.

-R

Originally posted by ManSh00ter

If Bioware were smart about it, and it doesn't feel like they are going down that road, they'd combine awesome storytelling with, yes, sandbox gameplay. You can have both, big surprise there.

But if they go down the themepark alley, then TOR is practically doomed. It has nothing to do with quality. MMO's can thrive on two things - social hype, the "everyone plays it!" mentality, which only a few games achieve by the virtue of sheer chance, and replayability.

And nothing beats a sandbox when it comes to replayability. The problem with sandbox designs is that usually they require players to get involved in some way in order to create content for themselves - hence the term. You get the sand, you've got to build your own castles.

This is something most gamers are not willing to do.

But, as I said, you can have both. You can have a sandbox where you are not constantly guided along on pre-scripted tracks, boxed in by a rigid class system or forced to play in a world bounded by artificial, immersion-breaking limitations; AND have a deep, meaningful storyline to enjoy.

Do I hope for this in TOR? Yes... but its a cynical type of hope. All the information they released so far points to the same old rehashed-to-death themepark style MMO with Star Wars flavor. If it turns out as such, it will have a great reception, and pretty much simmer down to a gentle and barely visible spark next to the still roaring inferno of WoW. Because WoW sucks up all the social hype. And WoW does not do that because its somehow a mega-brilliant game, but because it was in the right place at the right time.

All the developers that are trying to take a piece of that pie simply do not realize that the result can NOT be repeated by making a "better" product of the same type. The sooner they give up on that and start trying to actually be original in their game design, the better.

good post there.. /clap

I would love to find a good sandbox game.  I had hopes that SWG was going to be it, but that fell thru.. It didn't take long before all the errors, bugs and poor designs showed up..  The problem you have with a true sandbox is that the devs have to keep up with the everchanging world.. As with real life, sandboxes changes day after day, and the SWG devs did not have the grey matter to handle it.. Sandboxes require a shit load of manpower to keep it running.. In addition to keeping up with changes in the current game, sandboxes need add on changes as well..  This means adding new content, trades items, personal belongs and maybe even geographical changes.. Without change, any sandbox will become boring in time..

I seriously doubt you'll ever find a true sandbox game anytime soon.. It just cost too much to design and upkeep..

Originally posted by Phry

 just think of it as one of those single player rpg games, its mostly about storyline with some online content.

That's what I don't like about TOR.. Bioware claims its a mmorpg, but all I see is your typical platform structured single player rpg with "some" online content thrown in just to make the people pay 15 dollars a month.. That's not an MMORPG..

I was hoping TOR would be a real MMORPG where thousands of people interact with one another within the game world.

I enjoy quests and a nice storyline, but If I wanted to play a structured story driven RPG, I sure as heck wouldn't pay 15 dollars a month to do so.  I don't mind TOR being very story driven and quest oriented, but some of the things I've heard about the actual gameplay causes me to raise my eyebrow in worry. Such as, the majority of the game can be completed solo, but some of the quests require a "few" friends to complete.. Now, I don't know what few means, but I surely hope this isn't going to be like a diablo mmog where u can do everything by yourself but If u wanna hang out with friends, it's your choice but not necessary. To me and many veteran MMORPGamers that's not what we call a true MMO..

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to hate on TOR, in fact, I hope it will be a masterpiece. And I wish it will become the savior of the MMO genre. But, as of now the game sounds like a 90% single player RPG with very few EQ, WoW, DAOC, etc MMO features. That's not enough to make me pay to play..  Hope I'm wrong.

Originally posted by oakthornn

I enjoy quests and a nice storyline, but If I wanted to play a structured story driven RPG, I sure as heck wouldn't pay 15 dollars a month to do so.  I don't mind TOR being very story driven and quest oriented, but some of the things I've heard about the actual gameplay causes me to raise my eyebrow in worry. Such as, the majority of the game can be completed solo, but some of the quests require a "few" friends to complete.. Now, I don't know what few means, but I surely hope this isn't going to be like a diablo mmog where u can do everything by yourself but If u wanna hang out with friends, it's your choice but not necessary. To me and many veteran MMORPGamers that's not what we call a true MMO..

So far, it seems to me that TOR is trying to follow a Lotro approach where almost all the contents can be soloed, but some required grouping. In lotro, there is both instance and free zone with mobs.  The instance allows for better quest design, while the free zone are better to give a sense of  "this is a real world filled with people".  Lotro is story based and it works relativaly well too, although the story is the same for everybody, while TOR will have a different story for "everyone"...

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by ManSh00ter

If Bioware were smart about it, and it doesn't feel like they are going down that road, they'd combine awesome storytelling with, yes, sandbox gameplay. You can have both, big surprise there.

But if they go down the themepark alley, then TOR is practically doomed. It has nothing to do with quality. MMO's can thrive on two things - social hype, the "everyone plays it!" mentality, which only a few games achieve by the virtue of sheer chance, and replayability.

And nothing beats a sandbox when it comes to replayability. The problem with sandbox designs is that usually they require players to get involved in some way in order to create content for themselves - hence the term. You get the sand, you've got to build your own castles.

This is something most gamers are not willing to do.

But, as I said, you can have both. You can have a sandbox where you are not constantly guided along on pre-scripted tracks, boxed in by a rigid class system or forced to play in a world bounded by artificial, immersion-breaking limitations; AND have a deep, meaningful storyline to enjoy.

Do I hope for this in TOR? Yes... but its a cynical type of hope. All the information they released so far points to the same old rehashed-to-death themepark style MMO with Star Wars flavor. If it turns out as such, it will have a great reception, and pretty much simmer down to a gentle and barely visible spark next to the still roaring inferno of WoW. Because WoW sucks up all the social hype. And WoW does not do that because its somehow a mega-brilliant game, but because it was in the right place at the right time.

All the developers that are trying to take a piece of that pie simply do not realize that the result can NOT be repeated by making a "better" product of the same type. The sooner they give up on that and start trying to actually be original in their game design, the better.

 

good post there.. /clap

I would love to find a good sandbox game.  I had hopes that SWG was going to be it, but that fell thru.. It didn't take long before all the errors, bugs and poor designs showed up..  The problem you have with a true sandbox is that the devs have to keep up with the everchanging world.. As with real life, sandboxes changes day after day, and the SWG devs did not have the grey matter to handle it.. Sandboxes require a shit load of manpower to keep it running.. In addition to keeping up with changes in the current game, sandboxes need add on changes as well..  This means adding new content, trades items, personal belongs and maybe even geographical changes.. Without change, any sandbox will become boring in time..

I seriously doubt you'll ever find a true sandbox game anytime soon.. It just cost too much to design and upkeep..

Dare I bring this thread full circle? The best sandbox game on the market, and in my estimation one of the best games ever made, is eve online.

Try it.

I did , and hated it.. I couldn't even make it past the 14 day free trial..

/delete Eve

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Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

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Originally posted by illorion

i was hoping that this game would be kinda like eve except avatar based and the quests wouldnt be horribly boring. However after reading all the dev crap i realize that it wont be what i was hoping for. SWG except with better combat and customization. However it looks like its gonna be one of those linear hand holding games

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Still doesn't mean it won't be fun as hell. Also, we know little about the actual game..don't give up hope yet.

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Exactly, So it may just be a SWG except with better graphics, nothing fancy.