Originally posted by SEANMCAD

So you want to play the game still is what you are saying?

 

think about this....

And what will all those people from North America who got screwed do, in your opinion?

Give more money to Aventurine, who lied to them, July 7.?

Or buy MO June 29.?

Or even if they don't buy MO then, many people who did will have been in the game and able to make reviews. Some of them will be ex-DFO players who will be able to compare both games. The potential NA DFO buyers will read all those reviews and comparisons...

This about this when you log into your empty DFO server soon.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Conq

Broke a promise?  This isn't grade-school.  The Aventurine team, lead by Tasos, baited North American players to purchase an account, which is akin to buying a key or a client for @ $50, and mentioned that they would accommodate NA players to transfer to their character to the new server if they chose to, the NA server, when it is on-line. 

 

And now, 2-weeks, not months, not last year when they were still baiting, did AV provide the clarity about having to pay-out/fund AV for another account/key/client (its all semantics)  AV informs their NA player-base that they do in fact have to pay another client/account/key fee of @50 to play on the NA server.

 

Just as a snake-oil salesman doesn't make promised, neither did Aventurine, they just mislead and deceived the North American market to gain income to fund their experiement.  Wait for the 'transfer' fee 3months down the road, if you dont enter the NA server in a week and a half, to be as much as the account fee.

 

So you want to play the game still is what you are saying?

 

think about this....

. . .let me finish your thought. . .anyone that gets scammed and deceived by the likes of Aventurine and Tasos over the course of a long period of time, and pays twice, should look into a lobotomy.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

 

And what will all those people from North America who got screwed do, in your opinion?

Give more money to Aventurine, who lied to them, July 7.?

Or buy MO June 29.?

Or even if they don't buy MO then, many people who did will have been in the game and able to make reviews. Some of them will be ex-DFO players who will be able to compare both games. The potential NA DFO buyers will read all those reviews and comparisons...

This about this when you log into your empty DFO server soon.

THINK!

the only people getting "Screwed over" are people who ACTUALLY LIKE THE GAME AND WANT TO PLAY.

the people who DO NOT like the game are not going to try to get on the NA server in the first place!

So this subject alone admits that people want to play the game

Originally posted by WOWthatsucks

 

please sit back down captain clueless.

dfo has been out for soemtime, and people dont like it, and with mmo's you are buying a service aswell.  Not just the game.

and i dont like dfo or the other ones....

funny you thought u were the only one watching american idol..........lol @ u

the problem here is is that the game, the actual game itself. I find fun. I find it more fun than most other MMOs.

THAT is the core problem here.

ALSO: you guys that harp on the valid point of being charged twice are admiting that there are still players that in fact want to play the game.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by WOWthatsucks

 

please sit back down captain clueless.

dfo has been out for soemtime, and people dont like it, and with mmo's you are buying a service aswell.  Not just the game.

and i dont like dfo or the other ones....

funny you thought u were the only one watching american idol..........lol @ u

 

the problem here is is that the game, the actual game itself. I find fun. I find it more fun than most other MMOs.

THAT is the core problem here.

 

ALSO: you guys that harp on the valid point of being charged twice are admiting that there are still players that in fact want to play the game.

You are also forgetting a change in the MMO landscape this time around though.
 

At the time people purchased and continued to play DarkFall (because they were having fun presumably) there wasn't a newer MMO alternative that gave them the same gameplay.

That will not be the case this go around with the NA DarkFall server launch.

MO will be available for players to buy before then.

So, given that even though there may be some NA players of DarkFall who had some fun playing... there are very few that are happy over the prospects of paying again to play on the NA server.

These DarkFall players (the ones that had fun) are going to have to make a choice.  Spend money on getting the newest MMO on the block, or spend money on getting another copy of DarkFall.

Obviously the DarkFall players that did NOT have fun will not be purchasing the NA DarkFall version.

With this move by Aventurine they have now made it a really tough choice for their NA players that DID have fun.

Still think it was a smart move by Aventurine?

I agree with one of the posters above.  If I was part of the MO marketing team I'd offer an extra free month, or some other "allowance" for any existing DarkFall player. 

Originally posted by xzyax

You are also forgetting a change in the MMO landscape this time around though.
 

 

At the time people purchased and continued to play DarkFall (because they were having fun presumably) there wasn't a newer MMO alternative that gave them the same gameplay.

 

That will not be the case this go around with the NA DarkFall server launch.

MO will be available for players to buy before then.

 

So, given that even though there may be some NA players of DarkFall who had some fun playing... there are very few that are happy over the prospects of paying again to play on the NA server.

These DarkFall players (the ones that had fun) are going to have to make a choice.  Spend money on getting the newest MMO on the block, or spend money on getting another copy of DarkFall.

 

Obviously the DarkFall players that did NOT have fun will not be purchasing the NA DarkFall version.

With this move by Aventurine they have now made it a really tough choice for their NA players that DID have fun.

Still think it was a smart move by Aventurine?

 

I agree with one of the posters above.  If I was part of the MO marketing team I'd offer an extra free month, or some other "allowance" for any existing DarkFall player. 

well you might be 100% correct in that and I might even be an MO player then.

But I do not speculate on games before they come out so for the most part I dont really care about what might happen.

have fun until then!

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by xzyax

You are also forgetting a change in the MMO landscape this time around though.
 

 

At the time people purchased and continued to play DarkFall (because they were having fun presumably) there wasn't a newer MMO alternative that gave them the same gameplay.

 

That will not be the case this go around with the NA DarkFall server launch.

MO will be available for players to buy before then.

 

So, given that even though there may be some NA players of DarkFall who had some fun playing... there are very few that are happy over the prospects of paying again to play on the NA server.

These DarkFall players (the ones that had fun) are going to have to make a choice.  Spend money on getting the newest MMO on the block, or spend money on getting another copy of DarkFall.

 

Obviously the DarkFall players that did NOT have fun will not be purchasing the NA DarkFall version.

With this move by Aventurine they have now made it a really tough choice for their NA players that DID have fun.

Still think it was a smart move by Aventurine?

 

I agree with one of the posters above.  If I was part of the MO marketing team I'd offer an extra free month, or some other "allowance" for any existing DarkFall player. 

 

well you might be 100% correct in that and I might even be an MO player then.

But I do not speculate on games before they come out so for the most part I dont really care about what might happen.

have fun until then!

Yup, I am.
 

Part of that fun for me is posting on discussion boards while at work.   Doing server maintenance sometimes gets really boring. 

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

There are two very seperate situations here and I think you are fliping back and forth a bit.

1. quiting a game you LIKE because of a promise broken

2. quitting a game you DONT like becuase you dont like it.

I understand not playing a game becuase its not fun. I dont agree with not playing a game becuase a developer uses slave labor or lies becuase I think there are much more importnat things in the world than worrying about a developer liying

PLUS (and this is important)

If have an idea and then later I have a BETTER idea but it would involve me breaking my orginal promise, which is better?

You phrased your point as a "great game" being destroyed. My point was that no game is universally great and is not flipping back and forth. It was merely addressing a point you stated.

That said, let's look at the alternative you present: I like a game and, as a result, I should bury my head in the sand and say "thank you, can I have another?" anytime the devs decide they want to implement a poorly thought out change or demand more money.

Having been through such a chance with SWG, I can assure you the end result of this behavior does not lead to a great game.

Now as to your "PLUS" statement, are you implying that deciding to charge an extra $50 so someone can keep playing the game, but with possibly lower latency, amounts to a "better idea"? That's pretty rediculous from where I am standing, but in the end, it comes down to what you are willing to accept I suppose.

Ultimately, I stand by my point that players do not destroy games which was the original comment that prompted me to reply. A player does not decide what changes are made in a game, what new charges are made, or any of this. A player just decides whether it is acceptable and worth their dollar/pound/euro/whatever. Ultimately, it is the publisher/developer who destroy a game as it is their job to entice and retain more players then they alienate.

Originally posted by mklinic

 

You phrased your point as a "great game" being destroyed. My point was that no game is universally great and is not flipping back and forth. It was merely addressing a point you stated.

That said, let's look at the alternative you present: I like a game and, as a result, I should bury my head in the sand and say "thank you, can I have another?" anytime the devs decide they want to implement a poorly thought out change or demand more money.

Having been through such a chance with SWG, I can assure you the end result of this behavior does not lead to a great game.

Now as to your "PLUS" statement, are you implying that deciding to charge an extra $50 so someone can keep playing the game, but with possibly lower latency, amounts to a "better idea"? That's pretty rediculous from where I am standing, but in the end, it comes down to what you are willing to accept I suppose.

Ultimately, I stand by my point that players do not destroy games which was the original comment that prompted me to reply. A player does not decide what changes are made in a game, what new charges are made, or any of this. A player just decides whether it is acceptable and worth their dollar/pound/euro/whatever. Ultimately, it is the publisher/developer who destroy a game as it is their job to entice and retain more players then they alienate.

despite your great efforts the best I can tell the gaming industry as a whole is infamous for making promises all the time that they never fullfil. So it seems despite how much power people have the problem has only grown.

pleas read

Additionally, sometimes broken promises are actually a good thing!...oh wait do tell you ask?.....

Well, if I promise to take you to the ball game on sunday and one sunday we find out that the road to the ball game is crammed with traffic making it impossible to get there but there was a carnaval very close by that you would like at least as much which would be the better option?

1. get out of the car and spend the day walking to the ballpark in 100degree weather becuase I promised it

2. drive to the carnval and have good fun

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by mklinic

 

You phrased your point as a "great game" being destroyed. My point was that no game is universally great and is not flipping back and forth. It was merely addressing a point you stated.

That said, let's look at the alternative you present: I like a game and, as a result, I should bury my head in the sand and say "thank you, can I have another?" anytime the devs decide they want to implement a poorly thought out change or demand more money.

Having been through such a chance with SWG, I can assure you the end result of this behavior does not lead to a great game.

Now as to your "PLUS" statement, are you implying that deciding to charge an extra $50 so someone can keep playing the game, but with possibly lower latency, amounts to a "better idea"? That's pretty rediculous from where I am standing, but in the end, it comes down to what you are willing to accept I suppose.

Ultimately, I stand by my point that players do not destroy games which was the original comment that prompted me to reply. A player does not decide what changes are made in a game, what new charges are made, or any of this. A player just decides whether it is acceptable and worth their dollar/pound/euro/whatever. Ultimately, it is the publisher/developer who destroy a game as it is their job to entice and retain more players then they alienate.

 

despite your great efforts the best I can tell the gaming industry as a whole is infamous for making promises all the time that they never fullfil. So it seems despite how much power people have the problem has only grown.

pleas read

Additionally, sometimes broken promises are actually a good thing!...oh wait do tell you ask?.....

Well, if I promise to take you to the ball game on sunday and one sunday we find out that the road to the ball game is crammed with traffic making it impossible to get there but there was a carnaval very close by that you would like at least as much which would be the better option?

1. get out of the car and spend the day walking to the ballpark in 100degree weather becuase I promised it

2. drive to the carnval and have good fun

As I said, it all comes down to what a person is willing to accept. Most people were unwilling to accept the NGE. We see many people unwilling to accept the recent news from AV. However, when WoW decided to allow transfers from PvE to PvP servers (despite promises at one point that they would not), we heard some complaints, but overall, people were willing to accept it. This is an example of a company who had a good idea of what there playerbase wanted and would tolerate and made a move based on the fact they could likely retain and attract more then they lost. So there are three examples that hopefully provide some anecdotal perspective.

That said, I'm not really sure how your example has any bearing on the conversation. What was the better alternative AV offered? A player can either spend money or wait and spend money with undisclosed limitations (aside from the whole no gear transfer) if their desire is to play on NA1. Wow, with all those options, one has to be the clear winner right?

Back to my original point which you went out of your way to not address; players don't kill games. I have to assume we agree on that since you did not choose to address that point and that what my main point of contention to your previous posts.

Originally posted by mklinic

 

As I said, it all comes down to what a person is willing to accept. Most people were unwilling to accept the NGE. We see many people unwilling to accept the recent news from AV. However, when WoW decided to allow transfers from PvE to PvP servers (despite promises at one point that they would not), we heard some complaints, but overall, people were willing to accept it. This is an example of a company who had a good idea of what there playerbase wanted and would tolerate and made a move based on the fact they could likely retain and attract more then they lost. So there are three examples that hopefully provide some anecdotal perspective.

That said, I'm not really sure how your example has any bearing on the conversation. What was the better alternative AV offered? A player can either spend money or wait and spend money with undisclosed limitations (aside from the whole no gear transfer) if their desire is to play on NA1. Wow, with all those options, one has to be the clear winner right?

Back to my original point which you went out of your way to not address; players don't kill games. I have to assume we agree on that since you did not choose to address that point and that what my main point of contention to your previous posts.

ok
 

1. WoW might have great customer service and fantastic dev relationships with players but speaking personally I think the game looks like a cartoon and I wouldnt play it regardless of how good the customer service is. This is where I am coming from that the ACTUAL GAME ITSELF is more important to me that the PR or dev to player realtionship or even the company. But, hey, I am odd that way.

2. A lot of complainers (which may or may not be you in this context) really dont care what the reason is for the broken promise. They have zero intrest in learning that maybe the promise was broken becuase it was discovered that it was not possible or that maybe a better idea is being explored. Not sure if that is your angle or not but a promise broken just becuase its a promise doesnt mean ANYTHING to me.

ADDED:  alot of players in the community seem to not really be all that intrested in games themsevles. They are however intrested in teh companies that create that games. Speaking personally

I would never play WoW no matter how good the customer service is becuase the game itself doesnt appeal to me.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

ok
 

1. WoW might have great customer service and fantastic dev relationships with players but speaking personally I think the game looks like a cartoon and I wouldnt play it regardless of how good the customer service is. This is where I am coming from that the ACTUAL GAME ITSELF is more important to me that the PR or dev to player realtionship or even the company. But, hey, I am odd that way.

2. A lot of complainers (which may or may not be you in this context) really dont care what the reason is for the broken promise. They have zero intrest in learning that maybe the promise was broken becuase it was discovered that it was not possible or that maybe a better idea is being explored. Not sure if that is your angle or not but a promise broken just becuase its a promise doesnt mean ANYTHING to me.

1.) This is not a discussion of WoW being good or bad. It was anecdotal evidence of three different games that made three different changes and how those changes were received and handled. So, of the people that enjoyed DF, a number have raised issues with the current situation. Of the number who played SWG, a number raised took issue with the implementaion of the NGE and xPac sale preceeding it. Of the number who played WoW, the change was generally well received. What does any of that have to do with whether you like WoW?

2.) See previous two times where I said "it all comes down to what a person is willing to accept." Those same people would have quit WoW or SWG given the scenarios presented for those games. They do not however kill the game as the publisher is the one who incited them to leave.

And, once again, your post screams "me, me, me" when you are critcizing others for making a decision based on their personal opinions. Why is yours any more valid? People make decisions on their personal thresholds and motives.

nevah ! The game is garbage

some people these days are willing to pay for betas and patches advertised as expansions, go figure.

Originally posted by mklinic

 

1.) This is not a discussion of WoW being good or bad. It was anecdotal evidence of three different games that made three different changes and how those changes were received and handled. So, of the people that enjoyed DF, a number have raised issues with the current situation. Of the number who played SWG, a number raised took issue with the implementaion of the NGE and xPac sale preceeding it. Of the number who played WoW, the change was generally well received. What does any of that have to do with whether you like WoW?

2.) See previous two times where I said "it all comes down to what a person is willing to accept." Those same people would have quit WoW or SWG given the scenarios presented for those games. They do not however kill the game as the publisher is the one who incited them to leave.

And, once again, your post screams "me, me, me" when you are critcizing others for making a decision based on their personal opinions. Why is yours any more valid? People make decisions on their personal thresholds and motives.

1. everyone who posts (including yourself) is posting their personal view point on something and is therefore a "me me me"  post exactly like mine. The only difference with mine is I usually point out things like "I think this game is bad" instead of the more common post of "this game IS bad" (which is a view point posted as a fact)

2. I am also using WoW  "as an example" to make my point that if the game itself is not good, no amount of good customer serivice is going to attract me (oh sorry....I mean "players") to the game.

3. "willing to accept" well yeah, your exactly right. To bad for them, I am lucky I make it simple, play games I like, dont play games I dont like.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

1. everyone who posts (including yourself) is posting their personal view point on something and is therefore a "me me me"  post exactly like mine. The only difference with mine is I usually point out things like "I think this game is bad" instead of the more common post of "this game IS bad" (which is a view point posted as a fact)

2. I am also using WoW  "as an example" to make my point that if the game itself is not good, no amount of good customer serivice is going to attract me (oh sorry....I mean "players") to the game.

3. "willing to accept" well yeah, your exactly right. To bad for them, I am lucky I make it simple, play games I like, dont play games I dont like.

1. Fair enough that you see it that way. Funny thing is that many people actually speak from experience while you openly state you have very little. Others speak based on principles when you openly admit you have very few. And yet you present yourself as knowing so much better then everyone while calling others losers.

2. Once again, nowhere in there have I said DF was bad or WoW was good as far as the game goes. If you want to get hung up on those specifics then your neglecting the actual topic.

3. Again, good for you, but that somehow allows you to label those other people as "losers". Reminds me of the mother watching their kid in the marching band "All those other kids are out of step except mine".

We can certainly go back and forth all day and not get anywhere though. My original point stands. You are not longer speaking to it and, as a result, I don't really see a reason to continue. If you still believe players kill games, despite your later statements that they dont have such power, then I will be happy to continue the discussion. Until then, you get to stamp your feet and get the last word again since that is the game you seem to like to play.

Originally posted by mklinic

 

1. Fair enough that you see it that way. Funny thing is that many people actually speak from experience while you openly state you have very little. Others speak based on principles when you openly admit you have very few. And yet you present yourself as knowing so much better then everyone while calling others losers.

2. Once again, nowhere in there have I said DF was bad or WoW was good as far as the game goes. If you want to get hung up on those specifics then your neglecting the actual topic.

3. Again, good for you, but that somehow allows you to label those other people as "losers". Reminds me of the mother watching their kid in the marching band "All those other kids are out of step except mine".

We can certainly go back and forth all day and not get anywhere though. My original point stands. You are not longer speaking to it and, as a result, I don't really see a reason to continue. If you still believe players kill games, despite your later statements that they dont have such power, then I will be happy to continue the discussion. Until then, you get to stamp your feet and get the last word again since that is the game you seem to like to play.

all is all nice but...

when I hear of someone who stops doing something they like to do becuase someone broke a promise I find that patetic and childish and I am sorry but that feeling is factual.

despite how much experience you think you have in this industry and no matter how prinicpled you think you are everything you say here is also your "opinion" just like me, unless you can back it up as an actual fact.

also, to be frank, I think I have more actual game experience then most people here. Why ? becuase they still havent learned how the industry works pre-game release and they keep following the vapor.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by mklinic

 

1. Fair enough that you see it that way. Funny thing is that many people actually speak from experience while you openly state you have very little. Others speak based on principles when you openly admit you have very few. And yet you present yourself as knowing so much better then everyone while calling others losers.

2. Once again, nowhere in there have I said DF was bad or WoW was good as far as the game goes. If you want to get hung up on those specifics then your neglecting the actual topic.

3. Again, good for you, but that somehow allows you to label those other people as "losers". Reminds me of the mother watching their kid in the marching band "All those other kids are out of step except mine".

We can certainly go back and forth all day and not get anywhere though. My original point stands. You are not longer speaking to it and, as a result, I don't really see a reason to continue. If you still believe players kill games, despite your later statements that they dont have such power, then I will be happy to continue the discussion. Until then, you get to stamp your feet and get the last word again since that is the game you seem to like to play.

 

all is all nice but...

when I hear of someone who stops doing something they like to do becuase someone broke a promise I find that patetic and childish and I am sorry but that feeling is factual.

despite how much experience you think you have in this industry and no matter how prinicpled you think you are everything you say here is also your "opinion" just like me, unless you can back it up as an actual fact.

 

also, to be frank, I think I have more actual game experience then most people here. Why ? becuase they still havent learned how the industry works pre-game release and they keep following the vapor.

 

Yup it is all nice.
 

In the end it's always about a player's own personal opinion of what they find fun... or what they may THINK they will find fun. 

(If for instance, they haven't played the game and are just going by what they read about it from a description of it on the web-site).

The bottom line is that DarkFall is hurting for subs.  WoW has subs in spades.  Games are a very subjective thing, what one players find great; another will hate.  Current forum's game is a good example of this.

What isn't subjective is the number of subs that a game attracts.  Like it or not, MMOs are judged by the number of subs they attract. 

If a particular MMO attracts too few subs... they fold.   That too is not subjective... it's a fact.

If a particular MMO attacts a huge amount of subs... they will have many other MMOs trying to emulate them.  Again, nothing subjective there.

Draw whatever conclusion you want, but in the end there is no denying the fact that a very small percentage of gamers currently find DarkFall to be the best MMO available.  Will they attract enough to keep afloat?  Well, that is what this NA server launch in July will decide.

It will make no difference if you personally find DarkFall to be fun, and if you personally think it is the best MMO available.  If enough other players do not share your opinion... it will die.   THAT is where the intangibles like customer support, and PR come in.  They can help tide a game over the rough spots and give developers a few more months to straighten things out. 

THAT is what Aventurine has been pissing away in spades! 

Originally posted by xzyax

Yup it is all nice.
 

 

In the end it's always about a player's own personal opinion of what they find fun... or what they may THINK they will find fun. 

(If for instance, they haven't played the game and are just going by what they read about it from a description of it on the web-site).

 

The bottom line is that DarkFall is hurting for subs.  WoW has subs in spades.  Games are a very subjective thing, what one players find great; another will hate.  Current forum's game is a good example of this.

What isn't subjective is the number of subs that a game attracts.  Like it or not, MMOs are judged by the number of subs they attract. 

If a particular MMO attracts too few subs... they fold.   That too is not subjective... it's a fact.

If a particular MMO attacts a huge amount of subs... they will have many other MMOs trying to emulate them.  Again, nothing subjective there.

 

Draw whatever conclusion you want, but in the end there is no denying the fact that a very small percentage of gamers currently find DarkFall to be the best MMO available.  Will they attract enough to keep afloat?  Well, that is what this NA server launch in July will decide.

It will make no difference if you personally find DarkFall to be fun, and if you personally think it is the best MMO available.  If enough other players do not share your opinion... it will die.   THAT is where the intangibles like customer support, and PR come in.  They can help tide a game over the rough spots and give developers a few more months to straighten things out. 

THAT is what Aventurine has been pissing away in spades! 

most people would agree with this. I however do not.

I do not believe that the best movie is the one that sells the most tickets.

peroid.

Sorry

HOWEVER: you might be able to convince me that most people do not like to play a game based on fun factor of actual game play but more on customer service. This is something I could actually believe.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by xzyax

Yup it is all nice.
 

 

In the end it's always about a player's own personal opinion of what they find fun... or what they may THINK they will find fun. 

(If for instance, they haven't played the game and are just going by what they read about it from a description of it on the web-site).

 

The bottom line is that DarkFall is hurting for subs.  WoW has subs in spades.  Games are a very subjective thing, what one players find great; another will hate.  Current forum's game is a good example of this.

What isn't subjective is the number of subs that a game attracts.  Like it or not, MMOs are judged by the number of subs they attract. 

If a particular MMO attracts too few subs... they fold.   That too is not subjective... it's a fact.

If a particular MMO attacts a huge amount of subs... they will have many other MMOs trying to emulate them.  Again, nothing subjective there.

 

Draw whatever conclusion you want, but in the end there is no denying the fact that a very small percentage of gamers currently find DarkFall to be the best MMO available.  Will they attract enough to keep afloat?  Well, that is what this NA server launch in July will decide.

It will make no difference if you personally find DarkFall to be fun, and if you personally think it is the best MMO available.  If enough other players do not share your opinion... it will die.   THAT is where the intangibles like customer support, and PR come in.  They can help tide a game over the rough spots and give developers a few more months to straighten things out. 

THAT is what Aventurine has been pissing away in spades! 

 

most people would agree with this. I however do not.

I do not believe that the best movie is the one that sells the most tickets.

 

peroid.

Sorry

HOWEVER: you might be able to convince me that most people do not like to play a game based on fun factor of actual game play but more on customer service. This is something I could actually believe.

Did you read what I posted?

Please point to where I said that the best MMO (movie) is the one that sells the most subs (tickets).

I'll wait.