Let me give a personal backround of myself here, I'm 22 and I've started out playing MMOs really young, probably around 11 starting at EQ: Ruins of Kunark until Gates of Omen. I level capped my Iksar Monk several times (due to expansion and 11 year old adhd) and had enjoyed the process, yes it was rough back then but it was an enjoyable rough with plenty of Risk vs Reward. I learned the ins and outs of MMos, the do's and don'ts. I had talked to several people who had played UO and were having de ja vu experiances talking to me as a younger mmo player.

Fast foward 11 years and several mmos later I'm playing WoW, and its at the point were its a glorified IRC and trust me I've played the game from pre-bc to wotlk, and the world is brainwashed into thinking MMO = WoWclone. My younger brother age 15 has only played WoW as an MMO. So I decide to try to take him to play WAR. The concept of Open world PvP as an alternate to instanced PvP was alien to him. I didn't tell him about the small amount of addons since most mmos dont support them, he was somewhat confused as to hold aggro or lose aggro. This went on for a few months until he was overwhelmed by the confusion of a OPvP system that he ragequitted back to WoW.

Slightly befuzzled I went the nearest LAN center full of screaming Gen Y people, most of the people from my Generation, were playing an RTS, or were oddly enough quiet while playing WoW. When I bought up my WAR account People actually came up and told me it was a blatent rip off of WoW and a WoWclone, despite timeline descrepnices(sp) and that it plays nothing like WoW, I inquired to ask what an MMO would need to have to pull them from WoW, nothing worth noting. Most said that WoW has the highest subscirber base and thats why its the best, or for some other statistic.

After this rant is done and done, I ask the veterans of mmos, that we know nothing will kill WoW, but do you think that WoW just might be killing every other game by cheapening the experiance/making bad expectations/rediculous advertising?

MAJOR EDIT: Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I would like to have been. I'll lay it out in a few bullet points.

• WoW is a good game, however the difficulty in it is far below all other mmos. If there is a chance of having a "WoWkiller" and please excuse that horrendous buzzterm, it might need a lower difficulty, in order to pull the "wow is my first mmo"-people away from WoW.
• When I refer to Gen Y in this post I mean the future mainstray of MMO players. Most of us do remember playing MUDs/EQ/UO, and while I cant MUDs or UO, EQ made me grind, and taught me mmo ettiquite. WoW however is easy, and the ettiquite there is, almost non existant on both factions.
• With WoW being easy and "The First" for a new generation I'm only a bit worried about the next MMO to emerege after WoW dies off, seeing how most people only know easy and rude.
• I myself own a WoW account, I do enjoy the game to an extent, and I know that the demographic for this game isnt only Gen Y but a multitude of people spanning different ethnicities/ages/sexes.

I'm 24 years old and I started on MUDs when I was 9 years old.  I actually got into EQ when it was it was in beta.  I don't understand how you can group WoW lovers in a single generation.  I like WoW (even though I currently don't have a subscription to it) it's a great game.  I don't see how it's poisoning the genre.  What's poisoning the genre is developers trying to copy it's formula without the polish Blizzard games get.

You say your brother ragequitted back to WoW because of ORvR.  How is that ragequitting if he doesn't like ORvR?  Ragequitting is on purposely disconnecting or dropping from a game when you are losing.  When I was playing Warhammer all it was in the end game was musical keeps and little actual fighting, which I'd hardly call ORvR anyway.  Is running with a zerg constantly really that fun anyway?  WoW's instanced PvP and arenas are much fairer fights.  If you enjoy Warhammer more than WoW than keep playing Warhammer, but don't get upset when others like WoW more (I'm one of those people who went back and played WoW for a bit right after playing Warhammer for a few months).

WoW doesn't cheapen the experience.  Yes, it caters gameplay to all types of gamers (and the devs will consistently make older content easier so more players can experience).  If anything that's introducing new types of gamers to the genre.  As far as making bad expectations go I'm not sure what you mean by that.  Is it because Blizzard set the bar so high with the amount of polish they put into the game and their quick delivery of patches and bug fixes that it's impossible for developers to hit that standard?  As far as advertising goes it too will get a lot of people who normally wouldn't try a game within that genre interested in it, and there is no reason other companies who want to spend a decent amount of money on a MMO can't match their advertising either.  They also don't make any false promises in their advertising unlike many MMO companies (ex: look at the back of Age of Conan's box for a list of features that aren't in the game).

There is one thing I can agree with you on about the WoW generation is that many of them are just unwilling to try new MMOs.  I think a lot of this is due to the fact they know that as of right now they are going to be disappointed.  I'm sure one day a game will come out that could be a decent dent in WoW's sub numbers, but as of right now there is no decent contender.

Oddly most of the people I know who play WoW are in their mid 30's to mid 40's and started with UO... or EQ.

My personal friends from UO that made the move from MMO to MMO (uo, eq, anarchy online, daoc etc) are all pretty much in WoW.  We still chat, email etc but I don't play WoW..

So I don't see it as a generation thing either.. and I'd say many of the people playing already tried quite a few MMO's.

Maybe the real issue is "clones".  Eventually you end up in a game with your friends and realize almost all the games are the same.  So what is the incentive to try another game?

Comes back to the same thing... the biggest issue for the MMO market... lack of innovation.

Taking a system and making very minor changes.. then slap a new name on it  (isn't innovation or different to most people).

WoW cheapened MMO. It's one thing to make MMO more accessible, it's another when every company does it.

There should be room for games like WoW,  it has appeal. The issue is that every company caters to the WoW demographic and obviously this isn't working. 

Well the problem are the publishers like EA & Co. They are trying to kill wow by copying it. that doesnt gonna work. I remember back in 2004 before WoW came out we had so much different MMORPGS non playing like the other. Like EQ, Daoc, UO, Lineage 2, Shadowbane, AQ and so on....

And look now most new mmorpgs are trying to copy wow or have the same features. the publishers should stop and look at the average dumb wow player. He wont ever play a MMORPG after WoW. He will probably play wow a few years more and stop or continue with the next Blizzard MMORPG.

Originally posted by Antarious

Maybe the real issue is "clones".  Eventually you end up in a game with your friends and realize almost all the games are the same.  So what is the incentive to try another game?

Comes back to the same thing... the biggest issue for the MMO market... lack of innovation.

Taking a system and making very minor changes.. then slap a new name on it  (isn't innovation or different to most people).

I agree. There are a couple of games on the Horizon that try to break the mold - Fallen Earth, Earthsiege - but i guess we'll need to see how they go. I'm still not sure about Aion, it looks interesting but I don't think it's significantly different from EQ2, WoW, WAR, etc...

I tink future MMOs will do better by exagerating how they are different from WoW than those who mimic their core game around the succes of WoW.

I think the majriuty of WoW players are burnt out, but without a viable alternative

WOW didn't cheapen anything. WOW opened up a whole new world of possibilities in the MMO market as it expanded the market to many players.

The ones that cheapen the market are the game developers. They are the ones who think that, to be a success now, you must copy WOW. The problem is that a copy is rarely as good as an original. If you ask the millions of players who play WOW but have tried many games that have come out since or are coming out soon (WAR, AOC, LOTRO, Aion, etc...) and ultiamtely go back to WOW, they will tell you that is was an okay game but WOW was just better.

The other issue isn't a generational thing, its the fact WOW is their only MMO. They are not hardcore, jaded veterans of the genre like we are and WOW is all they know. If I drink Pepsi my entire life and you try and convince me Coca-Cola is better and I should drink it, I am going to give you the same response they gave you.

Some game will come out and will rival WOW. Something will be the new WOW but not by trying. Remember, Blizzard never expected 11 million subscribers. The success shocked them and that is one major reason the game had growing pains early on. The new game that will rival WOW will be the same way. Some game will launch (most likely from a major studio) and will be a huge success. It could be SW: TOR but it doesn't have to be. This new game will take some common part of MMO's and improve on it. WOW was the first MMO to really go after the casual market (not at launch but as the game changed over time) and as it did, the subs increased.

Maybe this new game will have more RPG elements or vocie acting in 100% of the game. Maybe it will be based around a huge IP (Star Trek or Transformers). Maybe it will be a sandbox. Who knows!? But I can guarantee you that the game that will be the new huge, massive success (ala WOW) will not try to be it, it will just happen.

Originally posted by templarga

WOW didn't cheapen anything. WOW opened up a whole new world of possibilities in the MMO market as it expanded the market to many players

And this is a good thing.... for us?  It could be a good thing for Blizzard. But not for us, since these newbies are acustomed to the way WoW work, that is a simplisted dumbed down way.

The OP show how one of these players "collide" with how a real MMO work, and since these players are not ready for a real mmo, go back to WoW. 

These are not real MMO players, these are a hybrid of "FPS/irc chatter" that don't care much about lore, or a persistent world.  The love for scenarios show how litte care about worlds.     Scenarios != MMO.   If all you do is play scenarios, you are not playing a mmo, but a FPS with a 3D lobby.

I never got people calling WAR a WoW clone. 

I got to max level in WAR doing nothing but instanced scenarios.  No quests at all.  No exploring at all. No crafting at all.

Very different from my WoW experience which was walking around 90% of the time, asking myself why anyways plays this boring heap of a game.

The two gaming experiences could not be further apart. Sure you could play WAR like WoW but you don't have to.

Originally posted by Teiman

Originally posted by templarga

WOW didn't cheapen anything. WOW opened up a whole new world of possibilities in the MMO market as it expanded the market to many players

And this is a good thing.... for us?  It could be a good thing for Blizzard. But not for us, since these newbies are acustomed to the way WoW work, that is a simplisted dumbed down way.

The OP show how one of these players "collide" with how a real MMO work, and since these players are not ready for a real mmo, go back to WoW. 

These are not real MMO players, these are a hybrid of "FPS/irc chatter" that don't care much about lore, or a persistent world.  The love for scenarios show how litte care about worlds.     Scenarios != MMO.   If all you do is play scenarios, you are not playing a mmo, but a FPS with a 3D lobby. 

You mean those REAL MMO players who accepted sitting on the a$$es for 5 minutes after almost every fight doing NOTHING but watching their mana regen?  Or the ones who waitied in line for hours sometimes an entire day to kill a boss?  Or how about the ones who would hit a tree 5000 times to train up their sword skill, something a monkey could do or pay 15$ a month to litterally just chat and decorate a house? Those brilliant beings?  Ya, they were the smart ones=)

A real MMO is just one you have fun playing.    If being a real MMO player means the willingness to waste hours of time doing nothing, which is what those "REAL" MMOs forced you to do, I'll happily be fake=)

I'm 23 and the first MMO i ever played was EQ1 from before the kunark expansion. I had been playing elder scrolls 2 Daggerfall b4 that and then my friend told me about EQ and the idea of an rpg with real people instead of computer characters sounded awesome so I gave it a try. I definately enjoyed EQ and had some great memories of just doing random nonsense with my friends who also bought the game. The death penalty was pretty harsh and in its starting days there were no maps for the zones so exploration was risky especially if you were kill on sight to most of the npcs like my guy was but you adapted to all that and just learned different ways to stay alive I mean it sucked everytime but no one ever complained about it and said the game sucked because of that. And there were probably better looking games out at the time as far as graphics but you didnt hear people complain about that either. Everyone was just stoked to be playing the game and being part of the experience was enough. Nowdays there are soooo many MMOs that like every feature of a game gets analyzed and compared to the standard which for better or worse right now is WoW. Why is wow the standard? i guess cause it has the most subscriptions but in all reality I agree with the people that have been saying that WoW just took the MMO genre and made it so casual people could play it. Its the truth cause i can clearly remember when I had been out of EQ for a few years and was was deciding to try wow reading up on it and seeing that the death penalty was basically nothing ( no xp loss, no corpse running) and that they made it easier to lvl (rested xp). Raid wipes back in old EQ would take hours to recover from and in WoW it takes what like 5 minutes but people still complain and ragequit the raid which is funny. Anyway I remember comparing the classes between EQ and WoW and seeing that alot of the classes and spells crossed over. Paladins still had lay hands, druids still had root and thorns and insect cloud, necromancers(warlocks) still had pets and could cast fear and DoTs. So i'm not even trying to be an ass or anything but in all reality WoW borrowed alot(almost all) of its core mechanics and gameplay from EQ but just made the experience easier to jump into and play. So the point of all this is that yeah I agree that WoW has made alot of people compare every new MMO to wow and downrate it because it has some of the same aspects but its really getting rediculous now to the point where any game with swords or quests is a wowclone.....really? So im glad wow got a whole new demographic of people into gaming but people need to be more openminded. WoW didnt create gaming.

Originally posted by Teiman

Originally posted by templarga

WOW didn't cheapen anything. WOW opened up a whole new world of possibilities in the MMO market as it expanded the market to many players

And this is a good thing.... for us?  It could be a good thing for Blizzard. But not for us, since these newbies are acustomed to the way WoW work, that is a simplisted dumbed down way.

The OP show how one of these players "collide" with how a real MMO work, and since these players are not ready for a real mmo, go back to WoW. 

These are not real MMO players, these are a hybrid of "FPS/irc chatter" that don't care much about lore, or a persistent world.  The love for scenarios show how litte care about worlds.     Scenarios != MMO.   If all you do is play scenarios, you are not playing a mmo, but a FPS with a 3D lobby.

 

 

A "real" MMO? Can you please tell me what a real "MMO" is and what one isn't?

Sounds like an old school elitist opinion to me. WAR is anything but a real MMO to me and a horrible example of what I think a real MMO would be.

There is no required criteria for an MMO outside of a large persistent world that allows for many, many players to play at a given time. After that, what is and isn't an MMO is up to the player to decide.

And most of all, if its fun play it regardless of what the game is.

My first MMO was UO, shortly before the 2nd age exp pack.  Shortly after I went to EQ, DAOC, SWG, FFXI, and finally WoW.

Worst community?  WoW

I've never been so frustrated from a games community that I wanted to quit not because the game was broken or bad but because everyone was so blatantly rude and excessively selfish.

UO PK's actually had some dignity and honor among theives.

People in wow just spit on each other all day long, they find ways to ruin the game for everyone because they are unhappy with their own lives or something.

Every time I log in now I find some new person who makes me want to log off.

Horrible, simply horrible.

(I normally hate people who blame wow for the degredation of the gaming community, but hey after a few years of it, i agree)

You people amaze me sometimes, how in the world would anyone consider Wow is poisoning the genre?

It is supporting the genre right now, because most of the new games are too afraid to deviate and trying to out Blizzard Blizzard is setting yourself up to fail.

There will be better games out there that will dethrone Wow.  Time will do it if nothing else does.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

My first MMO was UO, shortly before the 2nd age exp pack.  Shortly after I went to EQ, DAOC, SWG, FFXI, and finally WoW.

 

Worst community?  WoW

I've never been so frustrated from a games community that I wanted to quit not because the game was broken or bad but because everyone was so blatantly rude and excessively selfish.

UO PK's actually had some dignity and honor among theives.

People in wow just spit on each other all day long, they find ways to ruin the game for everyone because they are unhappy with their own lives or something.

Every time I log in now I find some new person who makes me want to log off.

Horrible, simply horrible.

(I normally hate people who blame wow for the degredation of the gaming community, but hey after a few years of it, i agree)

So because of a few bad apples in the WOW community, they whole games sucks and its bringing down the genre?

That is quite a stretch.....

Every game has their bad apples. Actually the worst communities I have seen to date are Age of Conan and Aion....the chief reason I uninstalled the preview weekend client from my computer and will never touch the game again. It was like the worst of the WOW community all in one place.

I will assume since you talk about UO, you play on a WOW PVP server and I hate to say it, that is where the worst of the community is at. Look at Darkfall and other PVP focused games, the community is usually horrible.

personally, I have little to no issue with the WOW community but hey, maybe I am just lucky with servers.

You know, a lot of people complain they see more idiots in WoW than other MMOs. Honestly...there's more people there period. Of course you'll see more. It's a matter of population.

WoW as a game brings good and bad. It brought MMOs into an almost mainstream focus. This has paved the way for more developers to make more new MMOs. Back when I started playing them there were 3: EQ, UO (dying), and a newcomer called Asheron's Call (Meridian 59 was pretty much dead already as well). Today? I can't even tell you how many their are. Hundreds. the lack of innovation is somewhat irksome, but unsurprising. I wonder if there's a fast food forum site that gripes about all the "McDonald's clones" out there. Although claled WAR a WoW-clone still makes me laugh, since the Warcraft series probably never would have existed without Warhammer, which was aorund far longer.

Rather than killing the MMO genre, WoW MIGHT be the key to opening it up into something much bigger. Maybe it already has. I think time and technology will slowly kill Blizzard's giant, and will give rise to newer, more original games. Perhaps even better ones. So, for the record, I picked the last option.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

UO PK's actually had some dignity and honor among theives.

Oh please. It is amazing how time passes and old things tend to look so much better. I dont want to turn this into a Trammel debate, but I lost count back in the so-called "glory days" of how many times I stepped outside Britain and some high level mage would one-shot me and and type "noob", or "loser". Then camp me.

"Rather than killing the MMO genre, WoW MIGHT be the key to opening it up into something much bigger. Maybe it already has. I think time and technology will slowly kill Blizzard's giant, and will give rise to newer, more original games."

I agree with this statement.  WoW ain't gonna die anytime soon.  I don't think its poisoning the market either, but rather bringing more people into the MMO genre.  If more people are playing MMO's, the bigger and better the next MMO's will be because its a giant resource.  Aion might be the next big thing, though at the start, it will be no wear near WoW's subscriptions, I believe it will definately get up there over time because the game is improving on what WoW has or copying it atm.

So what if more newbies are coming into the MMO genre? Everyone was a newbie when they once started.  You didn't know everything about getting Max DPS or needing the right gear to do this or that.  Back then games were fun because you didn't know all that kind of stuff.  You just played the game and enjoyed it.  Its when you know these kind of things that the game tends to feel like work and lose the edge.  Though it would be exciting at first when your doing all this, after a while you'll look for something new. 

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Teiman

Originally posted by templarga

WOW didn't cheapen anything. WOW opened up a whole new world of possibilities in the MMO market as it expanded the market to many players

And this is a good thing.... for us?  It could be a good thing for Blizzard. But not for us, since these newbies are acustomed to the way WoW work, that is a simplisted dumbed down way.

The OP show how one of these players "collide" with how a real MMO work, and since these players are not ready for a real mmo, go back to WoW. 

These are not real MMO players, these are a hybrid of "FPS/irc chatter" that don't care much about lore, or a persistent world.  The love for scenarios show how litte care about worlds.     Scenarios != MMO.   If all you do is play scenarios, you are not playing a mmo, but a FPS with a 3D lobby. 

 

You mean those REAL MMO players who accepted sitting on the a$$es for 5 minutes after almost every fight doing NOTHING but watching their mana regen?  Or the ones who waitied in line for hours sometimes an entire day to kill a boss?  Or how about the ones who would hit a tree 5000 times to train up their sword skill, something a monkey could do or pay 15$ a month to litterally just chat and decorate a house? Those brilliant beings?  Ya, they were the smart ones=)

A real MMO is just one you have fun playing.    If being a real MMO player means the willingness to waste hours of time doing nothing, which is what those "REAL" MMOs forced you to do, I'll happily be fake=)

I am not talking about what is fun or not.   Poking a tree 5000 times look like boring to me.  But It may help provide *deep* to a game world.  

About 98% of the MMORPG players are  WoW or ex-WoW players (number from my ass), so the future will be mold based on his WoW experiences.  Today these people are playing WoW,   so all other people, with different tastes, can have "niche" games. But once WoW die, these people will be everywhere demanding other games to be more like WoW.  

Is like... If MySpace invade the internet, and want other webpages to look like MySpace profiles.

(example page provided here to show how horrible a myspace profile look:)

http://www.myspace.com/manuelleopoldakadjhardsau