I really liked to follow all about Aion and it looks very much promising but its another game that uses a root kit protection that you hardly get off your system. And in other games that uses this protection the Farmers are still found.
The worst thing is that you are not even told that it tries to install it.

It would be a nice information on mmorpg.com to include this kind of information in the game description.

Originally posted by vendolis

The worst thing is that you are not even told that it tries to install it.

When I installed the game a little window popped up in the lower right side of the screen and told me it was installing Gameguard.

I personally don't see the issue with it.  Never had a problem removing it or having it affect my other games.

I never had a problem with gameguard and removing it is simple. If not I'm sure you can google it and find it in the top 5.

Never had a problem with Aion's version of gameguard neither. I can understand people who do have problems with it, it's just that I never had any, so to me, it's useless, but non intrusive also.

I've no problems with it at all... which I cannot say about punkbuster.

If you really have that big of a problem with it, then don't play it.  To be honest, if you're that much of a whiner, I'd rather not have to deal with you in-game.

Originally posted by madeux

I've no problems with it at all... which I cannot say about punkbuster.

If you really have that big of a problem with it, then don't play it.  To be honest, if you're that much of a whiner, I'd rather not have to deal with you in-game.

Well, you know that they operate exactly the same right? You don't have problem with it at all does not mean that problems don't exist. At least the company makes punkbuster is here in the US so you can scream at them if you have problem. nProtect is in Korea and NCSoft will not support Gameguard conflict with other programs on your computer.

Originally posted by madeux

I've no problems with it at all... which I cannot say about punkbuster.

If you really have that big of a problem with it, then don't play it.  To be honest, if you're that much of a whiner, I'd rather not have to deal with you in-game.

Here we go again... ^^ One has to wonder what type of sweet deal the Game Guard company is offering the suits in these companies. It certainly isn't the tech types who order it. They would know thats its smoke and mirrors. Game security issues are best addressed *server side*.  Which means they have to be inherent in the development cycle, not slapped on as an after thought.  It really doesn't matter how clever one gets client side, it can always be broken. Thats been demonstrated countless times over the years.

Tools like this are inevitable for all MMOs.

Players want more freedom and increasing complexity in game design. The servers can't handle it all (and maintain low costs at $15 a month subs) and too many players are looking for ways to break/cheat the system.

Players point out games like Darkfall and comment on poor game design, but developers look at the same thing and notice how the players take advantage of a system.

This is the result... and since the majority don't really understand tools like Game Guard, Punkbuster, or details in the EULA / TOS... The few that cry out are a small price to pay for the security of the world the devs made. You'll hit a few good ones, but for the most part it catches the bad. I'm fairly certain the percentages are acceptable, or else the games that employ these systems would have had them removed.

In the end, it is just good, safe business... *chuckle*

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

Tools like this are inevitable for all MMOs.

Players want more freedom and increasing complexity in game design. The servers can't handle it all (and maintain low costs at $15 a month subs) and too many players are looking for ways to break/cheat the system.

Players point out games like Darkfall and comment on poor game design, but developers look at the same thing and notice how the players take advantage of a system.

This is the result... and since the majority don't really understand tools like Game Guard, Punkbuster, or details in the EULA / TOS... The few that cry out are a small price to pay for the security of the world the devs made. You'll hit a few good ones, but for the most part it catches the bad. I'm fairly certain the percentages are acceptable, or else the games that employ these systems would have had them removed.

In the end, it is just good, safe business... *chuckle*

Well... As I stated, security is best kept server side. That is if security is ones real focus. Bandaids like Game Guard are more to make the suits feel "secure" than anything else. Client side "security" is not only poor design, its lazy. These days servers have no problems handling security, if the code base has it designed in from the start.  "Good safe business"? Not in the least, when one considers the false sense of security that stop gaps like Game Guard provide. But it is all too typical of the suit mentality. Then when their game gets hacked, they hush it up, blame the technical staff and hope for the best.  Remember when DAoC europe was hacked? To this day they deny that it happened, even though I still have videos of multiple epic mobs that the hackers spawned. ^^

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Originally posted by madeux
To be honest, if you're that much of a whiner, I'd rather not have to deal with you in-game.

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Well I can say that installing Chronicles of Spellborn caused some big problems with my former XP system, most likely with the installation of Kaspersky and a lot of other software. It is just the way that they use a system that hides on that level and digs that deep into your system isn't something I am really fond of. And CofS installed it on the patcher with no chance to interrupt other than block it with Kaspersky. I like to be asked when something like that is installed. And I like to be informed before I buy a game that they use such a system. Its like the Sony root kit on the music CDs. If they give you a warning you are the one to make the choice. If they sneak it in, its a no-no to me.

The problem I had with the Betatesting is that I changed systems to Windows 7 RC1 64Bit and they put in a version of GameGuard that does not work with it. and again. I know se7en is still in Beta and They have all rights to say not to support it yet, but it still annoys me that its because of a mostly not working item they use.

I have nothing against a good copy/cheat protection that plays in the rules, that I decide to use and that hassles a hacker/cheater more than me. I am still waiting for such a system. (Dongles are quite good there, just too expensive.)

And I also dislike PunkBuster and saw a friend getting banned with in 20 sec while playing on the computer beside me and it took him three weeks to get his account unbanned.

Why it is bothering you? It just makes the game loading time a bit slower but nothing else.

Originally posted by madeux

I've no problems with it at all... which I cannot say about punkbuster.

If you really have that big of a problem with it, then don't play it.  To be honest, if you're that much of a whiner, I'd rather not have to deal with you in-game.

lol.. Aion is going to have some of the worst people playing  for a MMO. NCsoft is NOT like Warhammer, nor WOW blah blah your going to read over and over about .. wheres a GM? I've been waiting days. Gameguard is not very good its very easy to .. anyway.. 

Well the thing is that the game guard doesn't work for Windows 7 and the people who done the game guard should have made the patch in the first place so people don't have problem running it so if people installed Windows 7 they can play Aion on the new operating system.

I was going to try out CotSB but GG would not allow me to run the game. I don't know why, tried loads of solutions and then gave up.

Looks like Aion may be a non starter for me now. :(

I love Gameguard

It's great. It means I can hack and bot till my hearts content :-)

Wave if you see me running past you at 10x normal speed......mwahahahah

P.S this is a joke, don't take me seriously

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Originally posted by injurer Why it is bothering you? It just makes the game loading time a bit slower but nothing else.

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Well it does too much to my system.

I was running NetMon. A network monitoring and traffic shaping tool what I use for years to see what is going on my network line and block or slow down items that cause problem with my network speed. I know that it is used to slow down the network speed to a point where you can jump through wall in some games, but that is bad design in the first place, no mistake with NetMon. I had first to find out what had kicked me (took about 1 day) then I had to find out how to get it running without uninstalling NetMon (which was no option) which was only doable by totally disabling the Windows service and restarting the system. So it caused me a lot of trouble.

And when I can cite from Wikipedia what GameGuard does (link):

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GameGuard hides the game application process, monitors the entire memory range, terminates applications defined by the game vendor and INCA Internet to be cheats (QIP for example), blocks certain calls to DirectX functions and Windows APIs, and auto-updates itself to change as new threats surface. nProtect GameGuard is launched via GameMon.des with a driver wmimmc.sys.

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I have no problems with process hideing (though its no real use realy), I have a problem with memory scanning cause it affects all my system and I have major Problems with the termination of applications. Blocking calls to DirectX and WindowsAPI can cause nasty problems, and interfere with my system on a level which they can not control, its just too complex.

That is bothering me.

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Originally posted by Shadow0429
Well the thing is that the game guard doesn't work for Windows 7

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GameGuard in general does at least there is a version that does. (don't know if you meant that by the mentioning of the patch.) Just not the version they put into the Beta.

I still don't know why people continue to use gameguard. It's not like it even works.

I remember when lineage 2 first started using it and the devs were all, 'this will put an end to botting!'.

The folks over at game haqs timed how long it took them to get past gameguard, it was something like eleven minutes. Gameguard is a joke, it doesn't stop people from botting or hacking and doesn't even really make it harder.

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Originally posted by LiquidWolf
Tools like this are inevitable for all MMOs.

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Then why non of the Games played had them? (EQ1, EQ2, AC, WoW[ok they have their own now], Van, CoH, SWG, GW, AO, DAoC, UO, WAR, LOTRO, DDO, Ryzom, ...)

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Originally posted by LiquidWolf
Players want more freedom and increasing complexity in game design. The servers can't handle it all (and maintain low costs at $15 a month subs) and too many players are looking for ways to break/cheat the system.

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Well how the other games do it then? The game list I have above does not list only unsuccessful and farmer/exploiter swarmed games.

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Originally posted by LiquidWolf
The few that cry out are a small price to pay for the security of the world the devs made. You'll hit a few good ones, but for the most part it catches the bad. [...]
In the end, it is just good, safe business... *chuckle*

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I want to give you a quote from Bruce Phillips (Member of the User Research Team at Microsoft Game Studios) from the most recent issue of GameDeveloper Magazin (VOL16NO6, page 22):

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... What's worse, when game players have negative experience, they are likely to tell their friend, family, and community.
When some one quits a game prematurely, we haven't just lost a player; we've created a detractor.

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So I ask you, how many times when you had a problem with a game of a bug, something that brakes the ability to enjoy the game at the level you wanted to do it, you went to your friend, to forums, and vent your frustration. Now I ask you how many of this people still got into the game or bought it?
I think I do tell it everyone who is slightly interested in games in my surroundings, and I even post sometimes on forums. I know that I have about 5 people who I influence directly on trying a game or not, and I think that are at least 20 people reading my posts in my direct community that are affiliated to games.
now again I ask how many times you have heard something bad from a game (from a friend, media, forums) and have told it to others? For me that is a lot.

Now the other side. How many times you tell some one that a game is great? And more importantly, how many times you repeat it? For me this are only the best games I played, or the game I play a lot at the moment. In contrast to a bad game which I will repeat also at a very much later time if the discussion comes near it.

And for this matter I am discussing here, there was already one person who said that he will then not buy the game. How many more did read it, had problems in the past with GameGuard, or just don't like root kits on their systems, who did not push the button and post up.

I made the decision to avoid Aion for this very reason. I've had severe problems with that ludicrous SecuROM nonsense in the past and I'm not allowing anything like that near my systems again.

Windows is flaky enough without third party programs messing with the system.