Well, no 3D movement in STO.  Is Basically just 2.5 D (Think Submarine Warfare).  Here are some comments from the STO Site:

<CrypticZinc> There's no rolling or looping in STO now. There's pretty signifigant up and down movement, but no barrel rolls or looping.
<CrypticZinc> However, you do always move in the direction that you're pointing.
<CrypticZinc> There’s no strafing, no moving backwards and shooting (kiting).
<CrypticZinc> No. No warp in combat. Combat in STO takes place at subwarp speeds.
[COLOR="Yellow"][RANT].
<CrypticZinc> There are a lot of mechanics and features to the game that we at Cryptic imagined when we first started the STO project.
<CrypticZinc> Rolling, fuel - things like that.
<CrypticZinc> Once we got the game up and running, and more people got on the team, and we started playing it more...
<CrypticZinc> there were things that we just didn't _miss_ from the original ideas that we had.
<CrypticZinc> things that the game didn't demand that we put in to make it a richer experience.
<CrypticZinc> Nobody internally has asked for the ability to do rolls or loops.
<CrypticZinc> It's not that we didn't have time to put it in - it's that the gameplay didn't merit that we do it. : )
[/RANT]
***taken from Dev chat about movement

*****

Rekhan (Community Rep):  

Whoa, obviously you guys have some very strong feeling on combat maneuvers within the game. The team has read your posts and taken all of them to heart, but at this stage in the game’s design we’re not adding rolls or loops into your ship’s bag of tricks.

When Craig said no one missed rolls, he meant it. No one on the team emerged from a combat situation and said, “Wow, if only I could’ve rolled my ship, I’d have won.” Much of this has to do with the way we allow players to shift power to their different shields. If you start getting hammered on your left side, you can press a button and instantly transfer shield power from one side of your ship to the other. This particular approach makes rolls and loops aesthetic rather than functional.

We’ve approached ship movement in a very certain way, and adding anything we haven’t deemed critical to that system at this stage in design would have a great chance of fouling up the works of numerous systems that we’ve implemented, tested and discovered were quite a bit of fun. All I ask is that you reserve judgment until you see the game in action.

So flying like in space (ie in 3D) like we see in the series is 'not Critical' to space movement??    Rather, playing 'Ships on the Water' in space is perfectly acceptable?     No thanks. This is 2009, not 2003. 3D movement has been in Flight sims for ever, and Klingon Academy was able to do it with no problem in 2000.

Instead of creating space movement, they have make a car game:

* You go forward = Driving down the road
* You turn, right/left = turning left or right on a curve
* You go up/down = Driving up the ramp/down the ramp.

Thats It.    That's Cryptics SPACE MOVEMENT.    There is no 'looping back' to pursue an enemy. Instead you have to turn and chase it like you are driving a cop car.

There is no 'rolling over' as you fly buy your friends or a space station.

Approaching DS9 will be like taking a Sail boat to the docks.

There is no straifing or rolling the Defiant as you attack a Klingon Cruiser.

So basically, its PoTBS in Space, except you can go 'up the ramp and down the ramp'. :(

The second thing, is that despite a lot of outcry about it, and 'having the time to fix it', the Devs are ignoring the community -- which suggests they will ignore the community through out development, and only 'react' if their game doesn't sell or they start losing subscriptions.   They want us to 'Wait till we play the game' (aka spend $$$ first).

I am not saying the game is going to suck, but rather than they are completely ignoring those of us that have played Legacy, and don't care for it.   It also shows they are certainly not trying to make the best game they can, and that they really do not care about customer opinion -- but when do Devs ever do in development.

I think this is going to be a reason I will probably pass.
 

I didn't watch a ton of Star Trek but I did watch some. I don't think I ever saw a ship strafe, so why now? Plus in space a strafe would end up much different, since you'd keep going in the direction you were previously going it would usually just end up in diagonals which I guess would get the job done.

I can understand not including barrely rolls and loops, since I did not see that in any star trek plus the people on board would all get knocked out. They tend to not strap themselves in during combat.

I dunno, I guess from what he said it didn't sound out of place. Star Trek was always about changing shield location and flying around/past a ship to get different shots. Especially since the lasers and torpedos could be fired at the target and so the ship never needed to face it's target.

That is all the Defiant did, was basically straffe and roll. 

I also fail to see the big deal with this. As usual, much ado about nothing.

Originally posted by Loekii

The second thing, is that despite a lot of outcry about it, and 'having the time to fix it', the Devs are ignoring the community -- which suggests they will ignore the community through out development, and only 'react' if their game doesn't sell or they start losing subscriptions.   They want us to 'Wait till we play the game' (aka spend $$$ first).

I am not saying the game is going to suck, but rather than they are completely ignoring those of us that have played Legacy, and don't care for it.   It also shows they are certainly not trying to make the best game they can, and that they really do not care about customer opinion -- but when do Devs ever do in development.

I think this is going to be a reason I will probably pass.

I always find it amusing that when someone finds something they don't like in the development process, the dev's are not listening to the customers.

Personally, I have a feeling that the dev's do listen to the customers a lot, but there are a lot of opinions out there and for everyone on that you like, there will be another that you don't.  Perhaps they did listen and the majority of their small alpha testers didn't like full 3D.  Gamers as a whole, and forum goers even more, are pretty ignorant about what really makes a game fun.  They know it when they play it, but I've seen plenty of thing gamers have demanded, gotten, and universally hated once it made it in.

So yes, wait for a release, if you are skeptical, don't buy it until you've heard some reviews.  I'd expect that from any game to be honest.  If they're good and you like Star Trek, pick it up.  If not, laugh your way to the bank and some other game.

Originally posted by ktanner3

I also fail to see the big deal with this. As usual, much ado about nothing.

Given the amount of critism of other games across this website, and the high number of failures, imo, I just see it as going down that same road.

Now I am not saying this will be the reason STO may fail, but rather commenting on part of the reason it might not do so well.

In this market, one would think developers looking for a successful MMO, would try to attract customers, not push them away.   Saw quite a few posters comment how this has 'cooled' their feelings towards the game -- and virtually zero saying 'yeah! this is awesome!'.  

Regardless of your personal opinion, that is not a 'good' reaction for a pending game in this struggling market.

part of me is glad cryptic is " ignoring" the " fanbase". Perpetual spet an inordinate amount of time trying to pacify whom they thought would in the end play the game and it killed them.  I think in all actuality cryptic is maiing a mistake discussing game mechanics at this point with anyone.  I don't have high hopes  for the game in general but I have a positive vibe given cryptics track record.  As long as ship combat feels  immersive I don't care about the overall  mechanics

I suppose it could be a good game, and am totally willing to try a free trial after launch to see for myself, but that being said, based on what I've read so far it seems like its not the kind of game I'd enjoy, which is a shame, cause you want to by hyped about a star trek game, ya know?

For those of you who don't think this is a big deal, read the OP again. And make sure you read the part where the dev says that they had plenty of "time" to put it in, they just didn't feel like it.

This is supposed to be a complete universe and they can't even summon the energy to their pathetic fingers to make some ship manuevers?? What, did they whack off to too many granny pics?


If they don't think we're worth a little effort, then STO is not worth my money, nor the money of my gaming community. We value effort and accomplishment strongly. I can proudly say my people and I won't be signing on to this kind of MMO. I won't trust my gaming experience, let alone my money, to a bunch of lackies.


Way to go Cryptic. HAVE FUN BEING A FAILURE.

I'm surprised that you're surprised. It never occurred to me that it would be fully 3D.

Maybe I grew up playing too much of the Starfleet Command series, but Freespace-style dogfighting couldn't ever be Star Trek in my mind.

I think the only reasonable way to do a fully 3D space environment in an MMO format is the way EVE did, and while I love EVE, I'm pretty sure Cryptic wants to carve STO into much more casual niche.

Originally posted by Saerain

I'm surprised that you're surprised. It never occurred to me that it would be fully 3D.

Maybe I grew up playing too much of the Starfleet Command series, but Freespace-style dogfighting couldn't ever be Star Trek in my mind.

I think the only reasonable way to do a fully 3D space environment in an MMO format is the way EVE did, and while I love EVE, I'm pretty sure Cryptic wants to carve STO into much more casual niche.

Well Eve Online is not a true 3d world either. You cannot do rolls or loops in that game either, you cannot go around planets or stars either. In fact you go through them in Eve. I find the issue the OP brought up to be a non issue.

 you guys also seem to be completely overlooking how helmsmen fly modern star trek ships, theres no joy sticks and rudder pedals involved.  its set a heading, set a speed, possibly enter a combat manuever like riker 3 or picard 7 and press an engage key, with the helmsman updating course corrections as ordered by his captain or adjusting them for a combat situation on the fly.  ild imagine a keyboard piloting setup very similar to how a star ship helm was imagined to work making its way into the game with mouse being used for firing of weapons and acceleration settable to the mouse wheel for users of wheel mice and targeting of targets on the mouse or tab key maybe.

I think this is fine, full 3D movement is more for fighter combat and not so useful for large space ships where the bulk of the tactic should be how you handle your weapons, shield etc and not positioning.

Originally posted by Loekii

Well, no 3D movement in STO.  Is Basically just 2.5 D (Think Submarine Warfare).  Here are some comments from the STO Site:

<CrypticZinc> There's no rolling or looping in STO now. There's pretty signifigant up and down movement, but no barrel rolls or looping.
<CrypticZinc> However, you do always move in the direction that you're pointing.
<CrypticZinc> There’s no strafing, no moving backwards and shooting (kiting).
<CrypticZinc> No. No warp in combat. Combat in STO takes place at subwarp speeds.
[COLOR="Yellow"][RANT].
<CrypticZinc> There are a lot of mechanics and features to the game that we at Cryptic imagined when we first started the STO project.
<CrypticZinc> Rolling, fuel - things like that.
<CrypticZinc> Once we got the game up and running, and more people got on the team, and we started playing it more...
<CrypticZinc> there were things that we just didn't _miss_ from the original ideas that we had.
<CrypticZinc> things that the game didn't demand that we put in to make it a richer experience.
<CrypticZinc> Nobody internally has asked for the ability to do rolls or loops.
<CrypticZinc> It's not that we didn't have time to put it in - it's that the gameplay didn't merit that we do it. : )
[/RANT]
***taken from Dev chat about movement

*****

Rekhan (Community Rep):  

Whoa, obviously you guys have some very strong feeling on combat maneuvers within the game. The team has read your posts and taken all of them to heart, but at this stage in the game’s design we’re not adding rolls or loops into your ship’s bag of tricks.

When Craig said no one missed rolls, he meant it. No one on the team emerged from a combat situation and said, “Wow, if only I could’ve rolled my ship, I’d have won.” Much of this has to do with the way we allow players to shift power to their different shields. If you start getting hammered on your left side, you can press a button and instantly transfer shield power from one side of your ship to the other. This particular approach makes rolls and loops aesthetic rather than functional.

We’ve approached ship movement in a very certain way, and adding anything we haven’t deemed critical to that system at this stage in design would have a great chance of fouling up the works of numerous systems that we’ve implemented, tested and discovered were quite a bit of fun. All I ask is that you reserve judgment until you see the game in action.

 

So flying like in space (ie in 3D) like we see in the series is 'not Critical' to space movement??    Rather, playing 'Ships on the Water' in space is perfectly acceptable?     No thanks. This is 2009, not 2003. 3D movement has been in Flight sims for ever, and Klingon Academy was able to do it with no problem in 2000.

Instead of creating space movement, they have make a car game:

* You go forward = Driving down the road
* You turn, right/left = turning left or right on a curve
* You go up/down = Driving up the ramp/down the ramp.

Thats It.    That's Cryptics SPACE MOVEMENT.    There is no 'looping back' to pursue an enemy. Instead you have to turn and chase it like you are driving a cop car.

There is no 'rolling over' as you fly buy your friends or a space station.

Approaching DS9 will be like taking a Sail boat to the docks.

There is no straifing or rolling the Defiant as you attack a Klingon Cruiser.

So basically, its PoTBS in Space, except you can go 'up the ramp and down the ramp'. :(

 

The second thing, is that despite a lot of outcry about it, and 'having the time to fix it', the Devs are ignoring the community -- which suggests they will ignore the community through out development, and only 'react' if their game doesn't sell or they start losing subscriptions.   They want us to 'Wait till we play the game' (aka spend $$$ first).

 

I am not saying the game is going to suck, but rather than they are completely ignoring those of us that have played Legacy, and don't care for it.   It also shows they are certainly not trying to make the best game they can, and that they really do not care about customer opinion -- but when do Devs ever do in development.

I think this is going to be a reason I will probably pass.
 

This really sounds weird. A space ship, flying in space, but ina 2.5 D universe. I'm not saying it's not fun but it should be a 3D enviroment.

As always, free trial before you buy will save you money and the "I wasted my money" feeling in case you dont like it.

Originally posted by Loekii

Regardless of your personal opinion, that is not a 'good' reaction for a pending game in this struggling market.

It could very well be a good thing. It brings those people with ridiculously unrealistic expectations down to earth. I understand your mentality of 'grab every one you can' but when you try to please everyone it's very rare that you please anyone.

"When Craig said no one missed rolls, he meant it. No one on the team emerged from a combat situation and said, “Wow, if only I could’ve rolled my ship, I’d have won.” Much of this has to do with the way we allow players to shift power to their different shields. If you start getting hammered on your left side, you can press a button and instantly transfer shield power from one side of your ship to the other. This particular approach makes rolls and loops aesthetic rather than functional."

Seems more than reasonable.

Originally posted by Loekii

Originally posted by ktanner3

I also fail to see the big deal with this. As usual, much ado about nothing.

Given the amount of critism of other games across this website, and the high number of failures, imo, I just see it as going down that same road.

Now I am not saying this will be the reason STO may fail, but rather commenting on part of the reason it might not do so well.

In this market, one would think developers looking for a successful MMO, would try to attract customers, not push them away.   Saw quite a few posters comment how this has 'cooled' their feelings towards the game -- and virtually zero saying 'yeah! this is awesome!'.  

Regardless of your personal opinion, that is not a 'good' reaction for a pending game in this struggling market.

To be honest,I am more concerned with the rumour that there will be no collision detection in this game.

I never saw the enterprise roll, flip, or strafe.  When you're dealing with vessels that large, it's just not something that comes in to play.  This talk of 'ignoring the fanbase' is just ridiculous.  If anything, they are staying true to the fanbase.  I've always found it slightly humorous that whenever two ships meet up in Star Trek they are always approaching on the same plane, not coming at each other from crazy angles.  That's what we'll have hear.  2.5D is more than enough for the game.

I'm always amazed at the amount of crying that I have to put up with this.  You see, the devs had "Time" to change this, so because they didn't do it, it must be a failure.  Forget the fact that the game didn't need it, that's not important.    They had time, and they didn't take that time to cater to a small group of whiners.

With attitudes like this, there is nothing they could have done to make this game right.  They would find something to complain about, one little point on which to focus their ignorance.  Fine by me,  because when I'm playing, I'd rather not have children like you in my universe.

Originally posted by madeux

I never saw the enterprise roll, flip, or strafe.  When you're dealing with vessels that large, it's just not something that comes in to play.  This talk of 'ignoring the fanbase' is just ridiculous.  If anything, they are staying true to the fanbase.  I've always found it slightly humorous that whenever two ships meet up in Star Trek they are always approaching on the same plane, not coming at each other from crazy angles.  That's what we'll have hear.  2.5D is more than enough for the game.

Watch the final season of Deep Space 9. In one of the major battles, the Fed fleet forms a wall with the smaller "fighter" ships coming in at angles to makes holes in the dominion fleet. Then near the end of the battle, the Klingons enter from above the dominion fleet and slice thru them.

Then in Star Trek 2: Wrath of Kahn, they enter the nebula and to trick Kahn, who is thinking in a 2d way, they move the ship to be below Kahn and to get in behind. I could cite many more instances of a 3d engagement, but this is enough.

So, there is precedent for a 3d  movement, but its early and they can still change thier minds, if enough people ask for it in the right way.

Wow man to see such nerd rage over STO you would think you would be a serious trekky, but you want to pilot a ship in a way that completely defies how Star Trek and the Starships have always been piloted and controlled.  There is a word for this, but I always forget it.

Star Trek has always been, like you said yourself, more of a submarine/battleship type of cockpit management.  That is how the game should work and I agree with the devs.  Now if they include tiny little ships then I could see it making not so much sense, but give them a chance.  They are talented devs, and they are pretty good at staying true to their IP's. 

If I play a Star Trek game it better be about micro management, shield controls, and strategic combat.  The good news is if you want fast paced twitch combat with crazy 3d movement Jumpgate Evolution is closer to releasing than STO.  (I think)

Originally posted by lugal

Originally posted by madeux

I never saw the enterprise roll, flip, or strafe.  When you're dealing with vessels that large, it's just not something that comes in to play.  This talk of 'ignoring the fanbase' is just ridiculous.  If anything, they are staying true to the fanbase.  I've always found it slightly humorous that whenever two ships meet up in Star Trek they are always approaching on the same plane, not coming at each other from crazy angles.  That's what we'll have hear.  2.5D is more than enough for the game.

 

Watch the final season of Deep Space 9. In one of the major battles, the Fed fleet forms a wall with the smaller "fighter" ships coming in at angles to makes holes in the dominion fleet. Then near the end of the battle, the Klingons enter from above the dominion fleet and slice thru them.

Then in Star Trek 2: Wrath of Kahn, they enter the nebula and to trick Kahn, who is thinking in a 2d way, they move the ship to be below Kahn and to get in behind. I could cite many more instances of a 3d engagement, but this is enough.

So, there is precedent for a 3d  movement, but its early and they can still change thier minds, if enough people ask for it in the right way.

But your examples still represent a small minority of the engagements that have taken place in the star trek universe.  They're not going to waste their time catering to this small minority, nor the small minority of whiners.

I always expected, with ships this large, that space combat would play out much like sea combat. I never even imagined STO to play like a cockpit fighter game.

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by lugal

Originally posted by madeux

I never saw the enterprise roll, flip, or strafe.  When you're dealing with vessels that large, it's just not something that comes in to play.  This talk of 'ignoring the fanbase' is just ridiculous.  If anything, they are staying true to the fanbase.  I've always found it slightly humorous that whenever two ships meet up in Star Trek they are always approaching on the same plane, not coming at each other from crazy angles.  That's what we'll have hear.  2.5D is more than enough for the game.

 

Watch the final season of Deep Space 9. In one of the major battles, the Fed fleet forms a wall with the smaller "fighter" ships coming in at angles to makes holes in the dominion fleet. Then near the end of the battle, the Klingons enter from above the dominion fleet and slice thru them.

Then in Star Trek 2: Wrath of Kahn, they enter the nebula and to trick Kahn, who is thinking in a 2d way, they move the ship to be below Kahn and to get in behind. I could cite many more instances of a 3d engagement, but this is enough.

So, there is precedent for a 3d  movement, but its early and they can still change thier minds, if enough people ask for it in the right way.

 

But your examples still represent a small minority of the engagements that have taken place in the star trek universe.  They're not going to waste their time catering to this small minority, nor the small minority of whiners.

I cited evidence that there is 3d movement in Star Trek. If they(the ships moving in a 3d way) are a small minority, show me some proof. I want to see you analysis of this to prove your point.

Also, in a Next Generation episode, the enterprise is stuck in a trap and cant use impulse engines to move.  They did a move that I can describe as a spin. They kept the nose of the ship pointed at a asteroid then "spun" the backend around to get a slingshot effect to kept up the momentum.

Mosrt of this will be moot if thier is no collision detection in STO. But if thier is, this will be a game of turrets just spinning in 1 spot shooting at another turret. With a 3d enviroment, that will open up the combat to accomadate the smaller ships better manuverability.

Originally posted by lugal

I cited evidence that there is 3d movement in Star Trek. If they(the ships moving in a 3d way) are a small minority, show me some proof. I want to see you analysis of this to prove your point.

Also, in a Next Generation episode, the enterprise is stuck in a trap and cant use impulse engines to move.  They did a move that I can describe as a spin. They kept the nose of the ship pointed at a asteroid then "spun" the backend around to get a slingshot effect to kept up the momentum.

Mosrt of this will be moot if thier is no collision detection in STO. But if thier is, this will be a game of turrets just spinning in 1 spot shooting at another turret. With a 3d enviroment, that will open up the combat to accomadate the smaller ships better manuverability.

The question is not if there will be 3D or 2D, there will be 3D movement in STO but there wont be full 3D movement with rolls and stuff. For example the movement in Wrath of Khan will be supported in STO. That is the way I interpret what the devs said anyway.

As for advanced 3D manevours, well thankfully this isn't a fighter simulation game and I wont miss it a bit. If you like that kind of combat you should take a look at Jumpgate: Evolution. That game apparently has full 3D movement with rolls and all that fancy fighter stuff.

Originally posted by Yamota

The question is not if there will be 3D or 2D, there will be 3D movement in STO but there wont be full 3D movement with rolls and stuff. For example the movement in Wrath of Khan will be supported in STO. That is the way I interpret what the devs said anyway.

I'm hoping you right.

I wasn't expect to do dog fighter style stuff with a Galaxy or anything like that... but what I would like to see is a form of "Rolling" your ship to bring a set of phaser into the right arc, or bringing the stronger sheild  to take the income attacks.
Like your starboard shield is getting low and you roll your ship to bringing ventral or dorsal shields to take the hit...
Kinda like Bridge Commander, but this is sounding more like SFC then BC....
For one the shields are Fore, Aft, Starboard and Port... no dorsal or ventral shields... which would have added a bit more depth to the game.

until I play for myself I'm not going to judge this just yet... but I have my doubts...

Originally posted by lugal

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by lugal

Originally posted by madeux

I never saw the enterprise roll, flip, or strafe.  When you're dealing with vessels that large, it's just not something that comes in to play.  This talk of 'ignoring the fanbase' is just ridiculous.  If anything, they are staying true to the fanbase.  I've always found it slightly humorous that whenever two ships meet up in Star Trek they are always approaching on the same plane, not coming at each other from crazy angles.  That's what we'll have hear.  2.5D is more than enough for the game.

 

Watch the final season of Deep Space 9. In one of the major battles, the Fed fleet forms a wall with the smaller "fighter" ships coming in at angles to makes holes in the dominion fleet. Then near the end of the battle, the Klingons enter from above the dominion fleet and slice thru them.

Then in Star Trek 2: Wrath of Kahn, they enter the nebula and to trick Kahn, who is thinking in a 2d way, they move the ship to be below Kahn and to get in behind. I could cite many more instances of a 3d engagement, but this is enough.

So, there is precedent for a 3d  movement, but its early and they can still change thier minds, if enough people ask for it in the right way.

 

But your examples still represent a small minority of the engagements that have taken place in the star trek universe.  They're not going to waste their time catering to this small minority, nor the small minority of whiners.

 

I cited evidence that there is 3d movement in Star Trek. If they(the ships moving in a 3d way) are a small minority, show me some proof. I want to see you analysis of this to prove your point.

Also, in a Next Generation episode, the enterprise is stuck in a trap and cant use impulse engines to move.  They did a move that I can describe as a spin. They kept the nose of the ship pointed at a asteroid then "spun" the backend around to get a slingshot effect to kept up the momentum.

Mosrt of this will be moot if thier is no collision detection in STO. But if thier is, this will be a game of turrets just spinning in 1 spot shooting at another turret. With a 3d enviroment, that will open up the combat to accomadate the smaller ships better manuverability.

Actually with the exception of your last example, what you've given are examples of the 2.5D that they talked about in the dev post.  Change height (angling up or down), 'sink' below Khan etc.... Your last example with the Ent. swinging it's back around (strafing) is the type of 3D they're not going to support.

There are a number of TV show examples of the smaller ships flying like fighter aircraft with rolls, looks etc... so yes there is precedence, but they don't want to support that.

One problem here is that what the Dev's are calling 2.5D movement IS REALLY 3D movement.  Anytime you introduce a height element into a back / forward / turn setup it's 3D.  So yes Lugal there is 3D in the TV shows and yes there will be 3D in the game, just not a 100% anything goes type.