Originally posted by rhinok

Originally posted by doobster

Originally posted by rhinok

 and couldn't do squat.  That's entertainment...  I should have been able to kill their NPCs (or at least die trying), break into their bank, set fire to their buildings, etc...,  I shouldn't have to be in a clan in order to do any of these things (some of which you can't do, like rob the bank, even if you're in a clan).  If the empty hamlet belonged to my race/alliance, there should be consequences to my actions (except maybe robbing their bank, if I'm a good thief - how would they know it was me?).  If it belonged to another faction, I should get alignment points for causing mayhem there.

• Can I build a house? No
• Can I set up a farmstead or mine? No
• Can I have my own store, either brick-and-mortar or online? No - I can only spam the trade channel.
• Do I have to be in a group in order to kill most mobs?  Yes
• Can I rob an unprotected bank? No
• Do I have to be in a clan in order to  particpate in most activies (sieging, building, etc...)? Yes 
• Can my clan build their hamlet or city anywhere they want?  No
• Can my clan build their hamlet or city any way they want? No

So, what are the sandbox aspects of Darkfall?  Crafting?  Politics? That's it?  Those mechanics exist in most other games, too, and done better (auction houses or individual shops, for example).

I'm starting to think Aventurine's definition of sandbox is "game that's not finished yet"

~Ripper

 

 

Solo-friendly doesn't equal sand-box.  Do you have to be in a clan to participate in sieging... gosh I sure hope so, because a 1 man siege will look quite silly.  UO would answer most of those questions you asked in a similar way, and it was still very much a sand-box.  I think that on a scale from Dropped-into-a-completely-empty-world-total-anarchy-clusterf*** and Follow-the-sheeple-in-front-of-you, Darkfall is infinitely closer to pure sand-boxism then 90% other games on the market.

You missed the point entirely and take things out of context:

• I never said a game had to be solo-friendly to be a sandbox. I said that forcing players to be in clans wasn't sandbox.  There are semantic differences.  The reality is that "any" player should be able to experience a sandbox game, whether solo or in a clan.  Their options might not be the same (individual player housing vs. clan cities, for example), but they should all have opportunity. 
• Sieging - I never said soloists should be able to siege.  Sieging was merely listed as one of the major game features that non-guilded players can't participate in.

Darkfall, in it's present state, is a clan game.  Major emphasis is on clan features, not player features (solo or not), which is one of the reasons it fails to be a true sandbox.

~Ripper

Agree 101%!

This is the core definition of sandbox, something that doobster did not understand in your previous post. The whole point of sandbox (even the name itself suggests this) is sitting in a box of sand and building your own adventures. any kind of restrictions, and i do stress ANY restriction, limits that sandboxiness (pardon the term) of the game.

In case of other games, AoC is limited by very restrictive geography, so it did not feel too sandbox to me if i saw a mountain in the distance but I could not get to it... ever. WoW is also not a sandbox game, its to static, the world does not change around you no matter what you do. DF tries to be sandbox, but it has these severe limitation due to open PvP. Because of that alone, you are forced to join clans and in general you are restricted to specific (and very few) activities.

As rhinok mentioned, being solo friendly does not necessarily mean that you alone can do what a whole clan can - that would be silly and there would be no need for clans. But, you should still be able to do SOMETHING. WoW, SWG(original) and Horizons are/were the closest to being sandbox from this perspective.

In WoW, I have a trade network and I have basically monopolized few trade items, thus having a really nice stable income. I had to beat my competition by underselling the product i was trading in, but eventually competition died out and now my product is being sold exclusively most of the time. That is pretty sandbox to me, I built my own little trading empire on my own. I only have one level 80 toon (1 month old), 2 77 and several others ranging between 30 and 55. I am not hardcore and I just recently started raiding 10 man Nax. Point is, I managed to accomplish reasonable success without being forced to join a guild or play 10 hours a day just playing the market, buing low, selling high, etc.

SWG (original) was even more sandbox that that. I would have to run around scouting for best quality materials because parts that i wanted to manufacture depend on the quality of the resources they are built from. And the items I build from those parts also depend on the quality of those parts. So the lazier I am, the worse quality item I produce. I could build resource-extracting machinery pretty much anywhere in the world, it was not uncommon to walk in the wilderness and suddenly find yourself surrounded by a massive ore-extracting field(s) and even whole player cities. Those cities were built where you wanted them and however you wanted them.This freedom was not restricted to guilds only. Sure, being in a guild helped a lot, but it was not required.

I think the original SWG was as close to being sandbox in my experience, and from what I hear about DF, its far far away from being sandbox. mostly because of all the restrictions that are implied by FFA PvP. Ironically, DF is very restrictive in most of its aspects because of the unrestrictive nature of PvP. AV sacrificed sandbox in all its aspects  to have that single sandbox pvp element. A bad trade IMO.

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by oddjobs74

 

First of all I know what fact means.

No I do not and have not played Darkfall. As i have said, I have common sense.  I would not by a car with 2 wheels and no transmission, or play 3 card monty on the street, which is what a person who plays Darkfall has in essence done.

What gives you the Idea that AV is attempting to put things right?

 

So to summarize facts

1) You not have played DarkFall

2) If you make statements about the game they pulled out of your ass

3) You troll these forum

4) it was very nice of you to share us that piece of information, we now are able to form a justified opinion about your opinions lol

To summarize facts:
 

1. I do not have to eat a turd to say I will not enjoy the taste of it. I just know it is not good. Just like I will not buy a car with only 2 wheels and no transmission, which is what the Darkfall paid beta is.

2. There is no statement pulled out of my ass.. see #1 I only speak facts.

3. The only trolls are the fan bots. end of story case close this is undisputable.

4. Whatever

Originally posted by pwnzorellOr 

" you are not hardcore, you can't deal with forum pvp. you are weak."

LOL, quote worthy material.

There is no single definition of sandbox, we all have our own ideas of what constitutes one.

One of the better description someone else once posted was that a sand-box type game does not force (or strongly encourage) the player down any particular course of action but provides a large number of tools for the players to influence the game world and make their own mark on it.

I think peoples issue with Darkfall is that it provides far fewer tools for playing in the sandbox, vs a game such as EVE which provides considerably more.

Now its true, EVE didn't have a full set of tools at launch, and neither does DF.  But I think people expected DF to have far more than it currently has, and they have doubts that Aventurine can really deliver a lot more of them.

I don't play, so I cannot say with certainty that DF is staggering, but I do believe that they are suffering financial problems caused by a lack of captal and subscribers.  History has shown us that games in this state frequently don't last long enough to become the games they were meant to be.

CCP managed to pull it off somehow, but I'm sure it was a near thing at times and there's no telling if DF will survive in the long haul or go the way of Auto Assault or TR.

Been lurking for a while and have a question that maybe one of the more reasonable people can answer.

Are Darth and Javac paid employees of AV that actually are Mods here on MMORPG which is why they don't get banned? There has to be someone in bed with someone else on MMORPG staff to get away with what those 2 do.

I have over the last 4 months seen people get banned for using words that Mods don't understand all the while Javac and Darth flame people constantly and troll their little hearts out and seem to get away with it?

So does anyone know the answer? Are they actually Mods that are also paid AV shills?

Originally posted by JTBanker

Been lurking for a while and have a question that maybe one of the more reasonable people can answer.

Are Darth and Javac paid employees of AV that actually are Mods here on MMORPG which is why they don't get banned? There has to be someone in bed with someone else on MMORPG staff to get away with what those 2 do.

I have over the last 4 months seen people get banned for using words that Mods don't understand all the while Javac and Darth flame people constantly and troll their little hearts out and seem to get away with it?

So does anyone know the answer? Are they actually Mods that are also paid AV shills?

Wondering the same thing myself I get banned every time I have any exchange with either of them.

Originally posted by oddjobs74

Wondering the same thing myself I get banned every time I have any exchange with either of them.

The only issue I have with posters the likes of Darth and Javac are that people actually make the effort to reply and debate with them.  Which we all know, except for the amusement factor, is completely pointless.  If reasonable people would just add them to their block list and move on you can imagine how quiet these forums would be.

Originally posted by javac

out of curiosity, what were you expecting? WOW with full loot? did you research the game at all before buying? What game did you come from and what game are you going back to?

 

DF is a sandbox MMO with an emphasis on PVP and conquest, and that's exactly what it delivers. IMO.

To answer your second question first, again, yes I researched it. That research told me not to buy the game... but I followed a guild to DF from another mmo, and some of them had been enjoying it. So despite my reservations, I gave it a go.

To answer your first question, here's what I wasn't expecting:

• To be forced to hit afk'ers on bloodwalls for a couple of months before I could walk out of town wearing armour I didn't want to lose. *yawn*
• An alignment system so badly screwed up, that players will be griefed more by members of their own "friendly" faction than by enemy ones.
• Rampant hacking/macro'ing/botting.
• Aventurine to not enforce their ToS - which they don't on nearly all counts. Because if they did, they'd be taking disciplinary action again the majority of their already tiny playerbase.

To answer your third question, I may go back to Ryzom. It has most of the sandbox elements that DF has - just minus the open PvP+full-loot and the city ownership.

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

I agree that what would compel many to continue would be non-instanced player housing;but then again, there isnt an mmo that offers it.

I know it's a bit of an embarassment in the mmo world, but Istaria has had non-instanced player housing for many years now.

Originally posted by JTBanker

Been lurking for a while and have a question that maybe one of the more reasonable people can answer.

Are Darth and Javac paid employees of AV that actually are Mods here on MMORPG which is why they don't get banned? There has to be someone in bed with someone else on MMORPG staff to get away with what those 2 do.

I have over the last 4 months seen people get banned for using words that Mods don't understand all the while Javac and Darth flame people constantly and troll their little hearts out and seem to get away with it?

So does anyone know the answer? Are they actually Mods that are also paid AV shills?

No i defend the game becuase i love it i am not paid by aventurine or have any position but i started playing some weeks after launch and i am a satisfied customer since.  No problems with account, the gameplay is exciting particullary i hadn't any more fun  in PvP in ANY mmorpg until now with DarkFall also i hadnt any more fun in any MMORPG until now with a GROUP of people.

Interesting fact is that you single few persons out (in fact 2)  including me that bothers you.

On the other hand you dont question opinions from people who NOT play but

state opinions as facts,  taking excessive negative perspectives without knowledge, bully people who admitelly like the game.

(take these thread for example  and how haters started to bully fans of the game by  recurring to personal attacks)

Interesting.

Originally posted by green13

• To be forced to hit afk'ers on bloodwalls for a couple of months before I could walk out of town wearing armour I didn't want to lose. *yawn*
• An alignment system so badly screwed up, that players will be griefed more by members of their own "friendly" faction than by enemy ones.
• Rampant hacking/macro'ing/botting.
• Aventurine to not enforce their ToS - which they don't on nearly all counts. Because if they did, they'd be taking disciplinary action again the majority of their already tiny playerbase.

So let break your points down one by one.

To be forced to hit afk'ers on bloodwalls for a couple of months before I could walk out of town wearing armour I didn't want to lose. *yawn*

You dont like loose items.  - its a full loot PvP game. You choose to attend bloodwals having YOU fear of loosing armor  force you. 

There have could been other options you didnt choose. One of which is  ..get used to loosing stuff in a full loot game the most important and foremost.  Then dont wear the most expensive armor running around use the armor fitting your skill.

Its YOU wanting to wear full plate with lets say  Lesser Magic 40 as highest skill (just an example) . AYou want to have it all handed to you. You want no risk while wearing the best armor and to minimize it the fast possible way you put yourself on Bloodwalls. 

An alignment system so badly screwed up, that players will be griefed more by members of their own "friendly" faction than by enemy ones.

These could have been an issue prior the alignment received a patch. I haven't been killed by a blue player since. Be honest and count me how often you got killed by blue friendly players ?

Rampant hacking/macro'ing/botting.

Often heard but really experienced ? be honest, on how many occasions you really had to report a hacker ?  You personally, not how many times you heard about hacking.

 Aventurine to not enforce their ToS - which they don't on nearly all counts. Because if they did, they'd be taking disciplinary action again the majority of their already tiny playerbase.

What makes you believe that ?  A general statement without any proof ?

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

I agree that what would compel many to continue would be non-instanced player housing;but then again, there isnt an mmo that offers it.

I know it's a bit of an embarassment in the mmo world, but Istaria has had non-instanced player housing for many years now.

What should be the purpose of player houses in Darkfall ? Please describe a bit of how they should function in the existing game.

"Often heard but really experienced ? be honest, on how many occasions you really had to report a hacker ? You personally, not how many times you heard about hacking."

For me, I reported nine in a fairly short time period then gave up when I saw that nothing happened to them.

When I left the game last week, those nine were still cheating away, plus I could find another 20 doing the same thing within a short travel time.

Those are my *firsthand*, personal observations.

I really love df's pve btw.

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by JTBanker

Been lurking for a while and have a question that maybe one of the more reasonable people can answer.

Are Darth and Javac paid employees of AV that actually are Mods here on MMORPG which is why they don't get banned? There has to be someone in bed with someone else on MMORPG staff to get away with what those 2 do.

I have over the last 4 months seen people get banned for using words that Mods don't understand all the while Javac and Darth flame people constantly and troll their little hearts out and seem to get away with it?

So does anyone know the answer? Are they actually Mods that are also paid AV shills?

 

No i defend the game becuase i love it i am not paid by aventurine or have any position but i started playing some weeks after launch and i am a satisfied customer since.  No problems with account, the gameplay is exciting particullary i hadn't any more fun  in PvP in ANY mmorpg until now with DarkFall also i hadnt any more fun in any MMORPG until now with a GROUP of people.

Interesting fact is that you single few persons out (in fact 2)  including me that bothers you.

On the other hand you dont question opinions from people who NOT play but

state opinions as facts,  taking excessive negative perspectives without knowledge, bully people who admitelly like the game.

(take these thread for example  and how haters started to bully fans of the game by  recurring to personal attacks)

Interesting.

 

 

You people are the only ones who put out personal attacks. This is undisputable.

Originally posted by oddjobs74

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by JTBanker

Been lurking for a while and have a question that maybe one of the more reasonable people can answer.

Are Darth and Javac paid employees of AV that actually are Mods here on MMORPG which is why they don't get banned? There has to be someone in bed with someone else on MMORPG staff to get away with what those 2 do.

I have over the last 4 months seen people get banned for using words that Mods don't understand all the while Javac and Darth flame people constantly and troll their little hearts out and seem to get away with it?

So does anyone know the answer? Are they actually Mods that are also paid AV shills?

 

No i defend the game becuase i love it i am not paid by aventurine or have any position but i started playing some weeks after launch and i am a satisfied customer since.  No problems with account, the gameplay is exciting particullary i hadn't any more fun  in PvP in ANY mmorpg until now with DarkFall also i hadnt any more fun in any MMORPG until now with a GROUP of people.

Interesting fact is that you single few persons out (in fact 2)  including me that bothers you.

On the other hand you dont question opinions from people who NOT play but

state opinions as facts,  taking excessive negative perspectives without knowledge, bully people who admitelly like the game.

(take these thread for example  and how haters started to bully fans of the game by  recurring to personal attacks)

Interesting.

 

 

You people are the only ones who put out personal attacks. This is undisputable.

Absoutley correct. Also they are the kings of spin and denial.

Darth and Javac, give it a rest, you are becomming a laughing stock on several boards and if you like DF so much why are you here and not playing all your waking time?

I guess you both must be AFK macroing to level up in the game that has no levels (ROFLMAO, yeah right).

Oh and before you start the "you don't play so you don't know" crap, I have probably followed and played longer then most here.

I first joined the forum membership back when Razorwax owned the game. Back when we had level headed people that saw a future for what Razorwax was planning. Not a bunch of screaming kids that act emo everytime someone says anything against their wittle itty bitty game that is probably their first mmo they have ever played.

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

I agree that what would compel many to continue would be non-instanced player housing;but then again, there isnt an mmo that offers it.

I know it's a bit of an embarassment in the mmo world, but Istaria has had non-instanced player housing for many years now.

It's funny, but now that you've made me think of it, DFO is basically the "Horizons of Istaria" of the PvP world.

A comparison that is both valid and embarrassing.

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

What should be the purpose of player houses in Darkfall ? Please describe a bit of how they should function in the existing game.

but...but...but...it's a sandbox! you're supposed to use your imagination! That's what I've been hearing so I am not sure why you would expect someone to detail the purpose of housing in a game.

That said, they could function in much the same way they have in SWG as storage, vendor hireling locations, or simply a place where someone can carve out their life in the game and have some impact on the game world. Certainly, I wouldn't expect the purpose to be limited to this short list.

So, while that may provide the begining of answer to your question, the previous response was based on a comment that no game had non-instanced player housing and not whether or not DF should have it. I imagine there are plenty of other things on the DF devs' plate.

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

Originally posted by rhinok

Originally posted by javac

out of curiosity, what were you expecting? WOW with full loot? did you research the game at all before buying? What game did you come from and what game are you going back to?

 

DF is a sandbox MMO with an emphasis on PVP and conquest, and that's exactly what it delivers. IMO.

• Can I build a house? No
• Can I set up a farmstead or mine? No
• Can I have my own store, either brick-and-mortar or online? No - I can only spam the trade channel.
• Do I have to be in a group in order to kill most mobs?  Yes
• Can I rob an unprotected bank? No
• Do I have to be in a clan in order to  particpate in most activies (sieging, building, etc...)? Yes 
• Can my clan build their hamlet or city anywhere they want?  No
• Can my clan build their hamlet or city any way they want? No

I'm starting to think Aventurine's definition of sandbox is "game that's not finished yet"

~Ripper

 

I'll be another to say that DF is not a true sandbox.  But it is the most compelling and freedom of tethered coded static environment available, where players influence the game-play environment and take on the roll of a mob which are hard-coded into most games for combat and gain.

 

This is not a solo game, never has been designed that way, or thought about changing their core dynamic in that direction for years.  DF is a purely social team-oriented, guild-centric game where you play the politics and diplomacy against the backdrop of small bands of players with the freedom to influence your game-play.

 

I agree that what would compel many to continue would be non-instanced player housing;but then again, there isnt an mmo that offers it.  But to think that there should be some safety of having a farmstead without being influenced by the player-driven ecosystem is outrageous, though you can have a farm within a hamelt.

 

So, while DF offers the greatest dynamic mmorpg to date within a player-centric ecosystem, you touch on a few things that no mmorpg has such as...

 

>player housing. (UO, EQ2, SWG) Just to name 3

>brick and mortel store. (SWG has actual player built stores. Almost ANY korean mmo has player stores as well.)

>robbing a bank. (Not yet seen any mmo do that, would like to though!)

>building a hamlet in any conceivable location. (SWG did it, build anywhere and anything.)

 

. . . .and claim that those are the reasons why you wont leave your pve-centric, themepark game?  Alrighty then.

Would just like to point that out.

Originally posted by Axllow18

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

Originally posted by rhinok

Originally posted by javac

out of curiosity, what were you expecting? WOW with full loot? did you research the game at all before buying? What game did you come from and what game are you going back to?

 

DF is a sandbox MMO with an emphasis on PVP and conquest, and that's exactly what it delivers. IMO.

• Can I build a house? No
• Can I set up a farmstead or mine? No
• Can I have my own store, either brick-and-mortar or online? No - I can only spam the trade channel.
• Do I have to be in a group in order to kill most mobs?  Yes
• Can I rob an unprotected bank? No
• Do I have to be in a clan in order to  particpate in most activies (sieging, building, etc...)? Yes 
• Can my clan build their hamlet or city anywhere they want?  No
• Can my clan build their hamlet or city any way they want? No

I'm starting to think Aventurine's definition of sandbox is "game that's not finished yet"

~Ripper

 

I'll be another to say that DF is not a true sandbox.  But it is the most compelling and freedom of tethered coded static environment available, where players influence the game-play environment and take on the roll of a mob which are hard-coded into most games for combat and gain.

 

This is not a solo game, never has been designed that way, or thought about changing their core dynamic in that direction for years.  DF is a purely social team-oriented, guild-centric game where you play the politics and diplomacy against the backdrop of small bands of players with the freedom to influence your game-play.

 

I agree that what would compel many to continue would be non-instanced player housing;but then again, there isnt an mmo that offers it.  But to think that there should be some safety of having a farmstead without being influenced by the player-driven ecosystem is outrageous, though you can have a farm within a hamelt.

 

So, while DF offers the greatest dynamic mmorpg to date within a player-centric ecosystem, you touch on a few things that no mmorpg has such as...

 

>player housing. (UO, EQ2, SWG) Just to name 3

>brick and mortel store. (SWG has actual player built stores. Almost ANY korean mmo has player stores as well.)

>robbing a bank. (Not yet seen any mmo do that, would like to though!)

>building a hamlet in any conceivable location. (SWG did it, build anywhere and anything.)

 

. . . .and claim that those are the reasons why you wont leave your pve-centric, themepark game?  Alrighty then.

 

Would just like to point that out.

Kind of makes you think they never played an MMO before.

You could break into someones non instanced house and steal there stuff 10 years ago in UO.

Originally posted by mklinic

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

I agree that what would compel many to continue would be non-instanced player housing;but then again, there isnt an mmo that offers it.

 

On this point in particular, and I will admit it has been a while, but last time I played, SWG was non-instance player housing. Additionally, you could place vendors in your house, decorate it however you wanted using any object (armor, weapons, furniture, resources, etc), and set access permissions. Placement was fairly liberal with terrain determining whether you could place your house and you could set your flora farmers working just steps from your front door if the resources in the area were right.

Now, to add to the sandbox argument, you could do all this without picking up a weapon of any sort and, if you chose, without a player association/guild, though being in a PA didn't hurt your gaming options.

 

Indeed, SWG at launch is miles ahead than almost everygame now in the industry, as far as sandbox goes.  The community is varied, everyone plays in his own ways.  Merchants! never before in any game and never since, you have merchants that really is a gameplay, and not just an off-activity before log out, and not just AH camping.  Crafters, they are unique.

DF is completely left in the shade when you look at SWG.  What shame it is for a game released in 2009 to pale in totality comparing to a game years before.  With the new processing power from computers, we expect ease and fluid implementation of SWG-like game, and room for much more improvement to be tried out.  Sad to us, DF simply deliver an empty map with broken skill system, hacker-heaven ... endless list of issues.

DF is a PVP game with ffa loot, that is it.  Sandbox?  Well if we do not bring up the successful stories of sandbox games, maybe we can pretend DF to be one.