Originally posted by HornsBane

It's not the MMO developers' faults you have a short attention span. Also, no modern MMOs take 6 months to get to max level... perhaps you're just not that good a player.

I sympathize with the OP.  Here you have the OP suggesting something, and people crap on him for it.  I've read these posts, and can say as a casual player (I spend more time on this site than playing), the OP's point is valid.  I play LotR right now, and have been for two months.  I am level 17.  I'm enjoying the game a lot.  But, I know that once i hit level 30, the experience will begin to creep to halt simply because I don't put in three hours of game time a night.  I like to take my time, explore, do one quest at a time to get into the story.  Nothing more.  It's fun for me that way.

As far as implementing the OP's idea, why not have one dedicated server for it.  The others can level normally.  Let people who like to play two or three hours a week experience the big fights.  Also concerning implementation, I can think of no other game that would be better served for this than DDO.  I have gone back to that game three times because I like its ideas and system.  However, I never go above fifth level.  I cannot stomach doing the same dungeon over and over and over just to level.  It's ridiculous.  (I know there are some naysayers out there who will say otherwise, but yes - you DO have to repeat dungeons over and over to level.)

Lastly, I think when Guild Wars came out, both my friend and I reached level 20 (max at the time) rather quickly.  In one month or so.  It certainly didn't hurt our experience with the game.  In fact, just as the OP said, I believe it rather enhanced it and made me want to play more.

Agreed at this point the only games that will be real successful will be those that minimize leveling and maximize endgame content.

For me personally, levelling is the part of a MMORPG that I most enjoy. However I do think that the vast majority of MMO players (though not on this forum) would prefer to see faster levelling and more end-game as the OP suggests.

However, it also seems to me that the majority of MMO players would actually prefer to be playing some form of gear based MMOFPS rather than a MMORPG.

Gear based?!? Please NOOOOO!!!

I hate games, where it's all about grinding for the best epic items. That's the worst thing ever done in MMOs.

Provide us with a decent skill-system instead, that let's us choose and modify our abilities out of hundreds available possibilities instead. That's what guarantees unique characters.

Originally posted by Senadina

If you don't enjoy levelling, don't play RPG's. That IS the game. What are you wanting to be max level for? That's when the game ends. Don't tell me raids, PvP, or other nonsense. The journey IS the game, and if u find it boring, play an FPS, or RTS. Stop whining about levelling.

Sometimes I think these games are not the games they are enjoying so they come up with all these "fixes" to the game.  If you don't like a game or a type of game move on.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by vazghoul666

What is it with mmo creators that they dont realize why people quit their games?  most mmo's out there are actually pretty fun, that is until you reach about 1/3 to 1/2 way through their leveling system.  How many games have you quit or rerolled 2-5 times once you reach levels 20-25?  It may seem like a different reason for each game but overall it really the same reason the level grind becomes mindless grinding doesnt matter what game you play their system varies only in how many quests they cram in throughout to lessen the mob grind. 

 

You've pretty much described my entire history of playing MMOs. :) There's two things I wonder, though...

1) are you and I in the majority or minority? I'm thikning the latter as wehenver I join an MMO, almost everyone in the guild I am in has no problem leveling to the cap and even getting there before I am even half way.

2) even if the leveling was accelerated, would I still be playing more than the 6-9 months? I mean, maybe that's just the point we get to when we are sick of the game, and the level ceiling we are hitting is just an incidental result of the playstyle. If after 6 months I'm going to be moving on anyway, no level change would fix that.

I would prefer a more shallow leveling curve.

I will grind mobs a little bit longer at level 1, if you will let me grind mobs a lot less to get from level 49 to level 50.

It's when everything is nothing more than +1 that it gets hard to keep going.

At first you get new abilities. Wow, I can fly now, or do an area effect spell, or use weapons two handed, etc. That was worth grinding for a week or two.

But grinding for a month to get area effect spell +1, flying +1, two handed weapon +1? Gets boring really fast.

Originally posted by Amafi

AFAIK there has been NO MMO's (with the exception of EVE) that has changed the way a character advances.

UO has learn by doing and even had learning just by being near someone who is doing.

Puzzle Pirates (Y!PP) has player skill based advancement. Whereas in most MMOs you can suck at bashing rats but as long as you kill them, you'll advance in level, in Y!PP, unless you get better at the task you are doing, you will never increase your rank. I'd say Y!PP has about the most hardcore advancement system out there... and its players sem to be mostly Moms and kids.

The good thing with EvE Onlines skill-system is, that you train up your skills in real-time without having to be online doing something. This favours all those, who don't got alot of time to play.
I like this very much, allthough I've got tons of time to play. Usually playing 40+ hours a week. But this system let's me play other games aswell inbetween, without falling back in advancement.

The system of UO is also a nice one, and basically I favour any system that is skill-based.

Leveling your 3rd to toon to LvL80 in WoW or any game like this is really the maximum of boredom a game can provide, which is why I quit eventually, after I cleared the content and got full T7.5 equipment for my first two toons.
I tried resubbing, when Ulduar went live, but I really couldn't be bothered to do so.

I agree totally. I highly enjoy going and finding new places on lotro. I am currently playing it also and am liking it alot. However lvling is also a very fun thing that i enjoy almost as much as exploring.. I think the best mmorpg game is the blend of both of these concepts. But I like LOTRO alot.. have been enjoying it alot.

They are very awake, but short sighted:

Originally posted by jrs77

Originally posted by vazghoul666

darkfall and mortal online both have your idea in use and on the way also and what ends up happening is everyone maxes all skills and everyone is the same.  people all chose the cookie cutter skill model best for the game and everyone ends up playing the same way doing the same thing basically a fps style game with a longer leveling curve, it fits some people but the model is flawed read some posts on the darkfall forums its probably the most entertaining forums around.

 

Darkfall or Mortal Online don't even have 50% of the things in use I was talking about there.

They're FPS-style games without any content then killing each other.

No economy, no crafting-system, no ressource-gathering (big style!) no nothing.

You should really have a look at http://www.play-earthrise.com/ to know what kind of sandbox MMO I'm talking about.

Maybe that's true for Darkfall but it ceirtainly isn't true for Mortal Online. In Mortal Online you can have a career of only being a crafter, for instance there are over 200 MILLION weapons you can craft and some rediculous number of armour - I think it was 20*10^20.

no offense... but what is with people who actually WANT TO LEVEL? That just seems ludicrous to me. There is an argument that hardcore gamers should have a clear advantage over casual yada yada yada, but NO ONE should want longer leveling times. Leveling/grinding is almost NEVER fun. This is coming from a hardcore gamer. The only reason people do this is so they can have a clear cut advantage over people who don't play as much as them, even when they alreadyd o considering the better ger they get from playing more often.

Leveling has been boring in every single MMO I have ever played, and I think most people agree. Endgame is where the fun starts and ends, nobody wants to have to grind to get there.

If all of the content was fun to do, you wouldn't need levels, people would just do all the content because they enjoy it.

I hate leveling when the levels are noticable. In a single player game, for example ME, you don't notice the experience gain, it just happens as you play the game. In MMOs though, you level up and level up and level  up, repeating content or grinding on mobs, either way you are no longer playing the game, but playing the mechanic within the game.

Remove levels, make the game FUN.

Originally posted by bobfish

If all of the content was fun to do, you wouldn't need levels, people would just do all the content because they enjoy it.

 

I hate leveling when the levels are noticable. In a single player game, for example ME, you don't notice the experience gain, it just happens as you play the game. In MMOs though, you level up and level up and level  up, repeating content or grinding on mobs, either way you are no longer playing the game, but playing the mechanic within the game.

Remove levels, make the game FUN.

Agree with you 100%... Leveling is BS. We all play to get to endgame to have fun. Why the hell should we basically be wasting 500 hours of our life when we are all going to reach the same destination, which we could of gotten to much quicker, and there for join the fun faster

Originally posted by SSSJKiNg

 Leveling has been boring in every single MMO I have ever played, and I think most people agree. Endgame is where the fun starts and ends, nobody wants to have to grind to get there.

Not all games are the same though, they don't all have an 'endgame' as such. Look at City of Heroes for a prime example. You do exactly the same at level 50 as you did at level 1. There's nothing more to get your teeth into. Yet even in that game, people want to level faster and faster all the time. What's the point when there's nothing to do once you get to 50...except start all over again...

Originally posted by SSSJKiNg

 

no offense... but what is with people who actually WANT TO LEVEL? That just seems ludicrous to me. There is an argument that hardcore gamers should have a clear advantage over casual yada yada yada, but NO ONE should want longer leveling times. Leveling/grinding is almost NEVER fun. This is coming from a hardcore gamer. The only reason people do this is so they can have a clear cut advantage over people who don't play as much as them, even when they alreadyd o considering the better ger they get from playing more often.

 

Leveling has been boring in every single MMO I have ever played, and I think most people agree. Endgame is where the fun starts and ends, nobody wants to have to grind to get there.

I have to respectfully disagree with you here- the fun starts the moment you make your character, not when you get to the end. You might have heard someone say "The journey to the destination is more fun than the destination itself". I think this applies to MMO's as well as anything.

However if developers think the same as you, the game will also become as you said. The destination is where the fun starts, because developers don't pay attention to the journey before it. Leveling becomes a race, a hindrance. This isn't how it should be; the journey should be as exciting as the destination.

What makes things exciting? The fact that you get a little stronger each time you level up, or get a better piece of equipment, or that you beat some hard boss in a storyline. These things don't have to start at the end- developers can flesh out low and middlegame in exchange for slower leveling times. The most important thing is to hide the grind so that it doesn't feel like it at all, someway or the other. But to remove the leveling part altogether? That type of thing will only create bad MMO's, imo.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by SSSJKiNg

 

no offense... but what is with people who actually WANT TO LEVEL? That just seems ludicrous to me. There is an argument that hardcore gamers should have a clear advantage over casual yada yada yada, but NO ONE should want longer leveling times. Leveling/grinding is almost NEVER fun. This is coming from a hardcore gamer. The only reason people do this is so they can have a clear cut advantage over people who don't play as much as them, even when they alreadyd o considering the better ger they get from playing more often.

 

Leveling has been boring in every single MMO I have ever played, and I think most people agree. Endgame is where the fun starts and ends, nobody wants to have to grind to get there.

 

I have to respectfully disagree with you here- the fun starts the moment you make your character, not when you get to the end. You might have heard someone say "The journey to the destination is more fun than the destination itself". I think this applies to MMO's as well as anything.

However if developers think the same as you, the game will also become as you said. The destination is where the fun starts, because developers don't pay attention to the journey before it. Leveling becomes a race, a hindrance. This isn't how it should be; the journey should be as exciting as the destination.

What makes things exciting? The fact that you get a little stronger each time you level up, or get a better piece of equipment, or that you beat some hard boss in a storyline. These things don't have to start at the end- developers can flesh out low and middlegame in exchange for slower leveling times. The most important thing is to hide the grind so that it doesn't feel like it at all, someway or the other. But to remove the leveling part altogether? That type of thing will only create bad MMO's, imo.

I see what you are saying. If they did somehow make the journey to the level cap exciting, I would be all for it. I just haven't seen it yet, and I don't think I will see it any time soon. I am all about having fun in MMOs. From what I've experienced, leveling is the anti fun except when you just start out. I would love the first game that really made leveling as fun as endgame.

Originally posted by SSSJKiNg

 

I see what you are saying. If they did somehow make the journey to the level cap exciting, I would be all for it. I just haven't seen it yet, and I don't think I will see it any time soon. I am all about having fun in MMOs. From what I've experienced, leveling is the anti fun except when you just start out. I would love the first game that really made leveling as fun as endgame.

 

I agree with you here, most MMO's don't even try to make it exciting. I don't even think that with the current basic leveling systems this kind of balance can be achieved. They should think of something new to hide the grind in the system. 

Just killing monsters might not be enough (the quest system ex. in WoW helped it a bit, since you could slice the "progress" into smaller parts (kill 10 rats > kill 5 boars > level), but it is still too simple in the long run, especially if that will be all you'll do from level one to level cap). I think that there could be more... strategic elements added to it. 

What I mean by this is something that will make simple fights require a bit more thought, as well as increase diversity; you wouldn't do the exact same thing to make progress at level 50 as you did at level 1. At say every 5 levels you would get to make progress in some other way, however without going too far from the basics of the gameplay. Each level should teach you something different, so that at the level cap you could in theory be able to handle every strategic element in the game with ease. Also, everything you've learned before should be needed while learning the next strategic element, so that you won't forget what you've learned from before.

This kind of system of course requires more thought to the way fights are fought. The current system is not good enough, there must be a way to add more depth to it in some way or the other. That's why I encourage devs to create something new and fleshen out the combat aspect, instead of just making everything look prettier. Aion's flying would be a pretty good example, making progress while learning to fight in the air might be more fun than the same old fighting in the ground we've gotten used to. FFXI's skillchain/magicburst system could be good too, although it has to be suited to solo play as well as group play. 

There could be story element as a "reward" for getting further in the game, too. After every 5 levels you would be able to go on an instance where the main story of the game progresses and you get to fight bigger and badder bosses (with your friends? The more the merrier!) and see how the story unfolds (with cutscenes and all). It could be applied to the grind as an extra incentive- the player wants to see what happens next. 

If the strategies needed in the combat are complex enough, the game could reward the player with an extra equipment or consumables if he does very well in the "training". Every player would be given a "rank" of how well he succeeded (S, A, B, C, D) and be rewarded accordingly. 

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by SSSJKiNg

 

I see what you are saying. If they did somehow make the journey to the level cap exciting, I would be all for it. I just haven't seen it yet, and I don't think I will see it any time soon. I am all about having fun in MMOs. From what I've experienced, leveling is the anti fun except when you just start out. I would love the first game that really made leveling as fun as endgame.

 

 

I agree with you here, most MMO's don't even try to make it exciting. I don't even think that with the current basic leveling systems this kind of balance can be achieved. They should think of something new to hide the grind in the system. 

Just killing monsters might not be enough (the quest system ex. in WoW helped it a bit, since you could slice the "progress" into smaller parts (kill 10 rats > kill 5 boars > level), but it is still too simple in the long run, especially if that will be all you'll do from level one to level cap). I think that there could be more... strategic elements added to it. 

What I mean by this is something that will make simple fights require a bit more thought, as well as increase diversity; you wouldn't do the exact same thing to make progress at level 50 as you did at level 1. At say every 5 levels you would get to make progress in some other way, however without going too far from the basics of the gameplay. Each level should teach you something different, so that at the level cap you could in theory be able to handle every strategic element in the game with ease. Also, everything you've learned before should be needed while learning the next strategic element, so that you won't forget what you've learned from before.

This kind of system of course requires more thought to the way fights are fought. The current system is not good enough, there must be a way to add more depth to it in some way or the other. That's why I encourage devs to create something new and fleshen out the combat aspect, instead of just making everything look prettier. Aion's flying would be a pretty good example, making progress while learning to fight in the air might be more fun than the same old fighting in the ground we've gotten used to. FFXI's skillchain/magicburst system could be good too, although it has to be suited to solo play as well as group play. 

There could be story element as a "reward" for getting further in the game, too. After every 5 levels you would be able to go on an instance where the main story of the game progresses and you get to fight bigger and badder bosses (with your friends? The more the merrier!) and see how the story unfolds (with cutscenes and all). It could be applied to the grind as an extra incentive- the player wants to see what happens next. 

If the strategies needed in the combat are complex enough, the game could reward the player with an extra equipment or consumables if he does very well in the "training". Every player would be given a "rank" of how well he succeeded (S, A, B, C, D) and be rewarded accordingly.

This is the type of leveling system I always prefered.  When you start a new level you get a new skill or access to new areas or features (crafting, flying, PvP, ...).  A level should last long enough for you to learn to use the new abilities or to explore the new content.   Once you achieved a 'level goal' (eg. killed x mobs, explored the dungeon, crafted x weapons, killed Big Bad Boss, won a PvP match) you move on to the next level and start over with new skills, zones or features.  You could make the progression as linear or as multi-path as you want. 

Everything that has been said so far in this thread is opinion, not fact.  Until actual statistical information can be provided that proves your points and includes a profit analysis the dev's will continue to use the known working formulas.