What is it with mmo creators that they dont realize why people quit their games?  most mmo's out there are actually pretty fun, that is until you reach about 1/3 to 1/2 way through their leveling system.  How many games have you quit or rerolled 2-5 times once you reach levels 20-25?  It may seem like a different reason for each game but overall it really the same reason the level grind becomes mindless grinding doesnt matter what game you play their system varies only in how many quests they cram in throughout to lessen the mob grind.  Whats the point in having 10 classes you can pick from if they expect it to take you 6 months to level a  single class and even long term players dont normally play a mmo for more than 1-2 years.

Developers wake up, you want to keep and hold onto subscribers?  Lower leveling time by 1/2 and watch as your average subscription length doubles and triples.  Personally theres quite afew games i would have played and leveled several chars and experienced long term end game on multiple chars instead of quitting after the first max char or in many cases at levels 20-25.

How many of you on here do the same im guessing theres alot of us that are the people who find grinding the same mob for 5 hours to get 1 level doesnt sound exciting.

Originally posted by vazghoul666

What is it with mmo creators that they dont realize why people quit their games?  most mmo's out there are actually pretty fun, that is until you reach about 1/3 to 1/2 way through their leveling system.  How many games have you quit or rerolled 2-5 times once you reach levels 20-25?  It may seem like a different reason for each game but overall it really the same reason the level grind becomes mindless grinding doesnt matter what game you play their system varies only in how many quests they cram in throughout to lessen the mob grind. 

You've pretty much described my entire history of playing MMOs. :) There's two things I wonder, though...

1) are you and I in the majority or minority? I'm thikning the latter as wehenver I join an MMO, almost everyone in the guild I am in has no problem leveling to the cap and even getting there before I am even half way.

2) even if the leveling was accelerated, would I still be playing more than the 6-9 months? I mean, maybe that's just the point we get to when we are sick of the game, and the level ceiling we are hitting is just an incidental result of the playstyle. If after 6 months I'm going to be moving on anyway, no level change would fix that.

How typical of the "I want it now generation".  Pick a class and stick with it, these games level too fast to start with.

ive been playing online games since muds, in my 12 years or so theres been several games ive played for 2-3 years reached level cap on multiple chars.  The problem isnt playstyle the problem is mmo's regardless of what they add are'nt realizing they need to subtract old out dated idea's as well.  I dont think were a minority, scanning the forums can reveal just how many people are mmo bouncing and the reason they cant find a home isnt because there arent any good games its because half way through they realize they dont want to sink a 8 hour shift in to get 1 level on a char their not sure theyll enjoy endgame.

Wrong approach buddy.

Developers should think about doing away with level-based systems and classes and go with skill-based, sandbox MMOs instead, where you can have your single character and are able to train all available skills on that one character.

That's how you keep players interested in playing the game, if they don't have to do the same quests over and over again, with every new class they play. Also, players are not interested in having 5 toons at maximum level, when there's no content after leveling up.

Players need to have the option to create their own content, like conquering territories and defending them against other players etc.
And a working economy!

Just take EvE Online as an example and transfer the basics into a 1st/3rd-person styled MMO and let the players work for their XP/skills instead of having them trained in realtime.

There's a game in development atm, that will probably set a milestone regarding this question: it's called Earthrise.

I for sure will keep an eye on it and see how it looks like on release.

How typical of the "I want it now generation". Pick a class and stick with it, these games level too fast to start with.

.....as i posted above im sure ive been playing online games longer or as along as you i've put in my mindless grinding days just like everyone else.  My point is it's an outdated business model, when the concept of mmo's was new and exciting the grind platform worked well since the lack of competition resulted in fewer options.  Now there are 100's of mmo's all with the same grind model except now the mmo community has seen it all done it all, give options not limitations.  Give the ability to experience the game a developer crew has worked for years on from each classes perspective not a single view point and theyll see their longterm subscription rate increase.

Im not sure how you can say 300-600 hours of pure grind is to fast a leveling pace to begin with........

darkfall and mortal online both have your idea in use and on the way also and what ends up happening is everyone maxes all skills and everyone is the same.  people all chose the cookie cutter skill model best for the game and everyone ends up playing the same way doing the same thing basically a fps style game with a longer leveling curve, it fits some people but the model is flawed read some posts on the darkfall forums its probably the most entertaining forums around.

I tried LOTRO, gave up after about three weeks. One of the reasons was that levelling was ridiculously fast.  I'd never even seen the game before and had three toons in the teens, one was over lvl 30. That's ridiculous, gives you nothing to work for or to look forward to.

I just cancelled my CoX account. The 'goodbye' email was a simple one liner saying the account was closed. Developers these days don't want to know why people leave their game. Without that information how can we have any hope that they have a clue what the players want.

Looking for a new home...not got much hope though

It's not the MMO developers' faults you have a short attention span. Also, no modern MMOs take 6 months to get to max level... perhaps you're just not that good a player.

But why do you want to get to the level cap anyway? 

I've actually found that the games I've played get boring once I've hit the top.  For me the fun has come from the journey not the destination.

I would say it depends on the game you're playing and what the endgame is.  PoTBS & DoAC and to a smaller degree SWG the end game is Pvp.  From my understanding of them, WoW & AoC would fit that model too.  For games that fall into those catagories than why bother with levels anyway?  Why not just start out at the end point and play the endgame?

The worst I've seen had to be AoC, the levels flew by so fast why did they even have them. For a endgame style game going with skills vice level would make so much more sense.  Except that then the cookie cutter / best build problem comes up.  Heaven forbid that people should customize their toon's to their individual tastes!  Got to have this skill for offense and this for defense with a little of this for added whatever.  What was it in the old SWG? TK/pikemen/doc/commando? Bah!
 

For LotRO which I'm playing now and SWG & PotBS the fun is/was just running the story (missions/quests).  I had more fun with SWG & PotBS as a mid-level player.  I could handle the missions and was in a good enough position to run with a group if it was a hard mission or wanted to Pvp.

Let's look at a few recent MMos...AOC, Vanguard, WAR, Darkfall, LoTRo, DDO..etc

For all their slight differences, they're all the same. Alright, some are doing ok, but they aren't doing great. It's just churning out the same old shit in a different skin. Taking an established title and jumping shamelessly onto the WoW bandwagon with a half-baked clone with crappy code hoping in vain that somehow people will like it.

I think we need something different now, the MMO scene is tired.

What gets me most is that how can they make a bad game? You have a certain amount of money, you know the capabilities of your programmers, and you should have an original idea. If a husband and wife team can make a half decent game funded with just donations (Mount & Blade). Surely a multi-million $ company can churn out something half decent? Well,  Apparently not.

I used to be a huge MMO fan, now I simply can't be arsed with them. They're all shite IMO.

Amafi

Originally posted by vazghoul666

darkfall and mortal online both have your idea in use and on the way also and what ends up happening is everyone maxes all skills and everyone is the same.  people all chose the cookie cutter skill model best for the game and everyone ends up playing the same way doing the same thing basically a fps style game with a longer leveling curve, it fits some people but the model is flawed read some posts on the darkfall forums its probably the most entertaining forums around.

Darkfall or Mortal Online don't even have 50% of the things in use I was talking about there.

They're FPS-style games without any content then killing each other.

No economy, no crafting-system, no ressource-gathering (big style!) no nothing.

You should really have a look at http://www.play-earthrise.com/ to know what kind of sandbox MMO I'm talking about.

Leveling speed is fine. I think they need to drop the whole raid as major part of end game approach. In Wow about the time I hit 80 its time to reroll a new toon or maybe go to a different server. The game would be much more tolerable with more small group or hell at this point even solo content at end game just no more raiding.

Originally posted by Amafi

What gets me most is that how can they make a bad game? You have a certain amount of money, you know the capabilities of your programmers, and you should have an original idea. If a husband and wife team can make a half decent game funded with just donations (Mount & Blade). Surely a multi-million $ company can churn out something half decent? Well,  Apparently not.

 

It's all about the investor's. 

The only  original titles / games are those like your M&B example above, Vendetta-Online (4 buddies doing it on their own) or PotBS (where FLS had all the money on their own and didn't have to borrow any).

For anything with investor's it's just the same as on TV. 

Dev - I want you to put money into something totally new that may not make any money.

Investor - Hmmmmm ...... NO.  Just re-do something we know we'll get our money back on.

If you don't enjoy levelling, don't play RPG's. That IS the game. What are you wanting to be max level for? That's when the game ends. Don't tell me raids, PvP, or other nonsense. The journey IS the game, and if u find it boring, play an FPS, or RTS. Stop whining about levelling.

Darkfall or Mortal Online don't even have 50% of the things in use I was talking about there.

They're FPS-style games without any content then killing each other.

No economy, no crafting-system, no ressource-gathering (big style!) no nothing.

You should really have a look at http://www.play-earthrise.com/ to know what kind of sandbox MMO I'm talking about.

darkfall does have a crafting system the economy is actually decent, and as for gathering its more of a grind than leveling in most mmo's

Grinding sucks.

When I see grind in an MMO I leave faster than a rat on a sinking ship.

If you don't enjoy levelling, don't play RPG's. That IS the game. What are you wanting to be max level for? That's when the game ends. Don't tell me raids, PvP, or other nonsense. The journey IS the game, and if u find it boring, play an FPS, or RTS. Stop whining about levelling.

your half right...an rpg is about advancing your character, however your talking about enjoying for example 1-49th level in a 50 level rpg.  all the equipment etc youve collected becomes obsolete at 50 so taking your time enjoying the grind and equipment farming that is going to become obsolete is a waste of time.  the object truely is get to 50 because that is really when the game actually begins 1-49 is a end to a new beginning.  thanks for your input though i appreciate you chiming in your .0002 cent and declaring me a whiner when all i have made is solid valid points.

 I disagree with your opinion in many ways.  To make a long story short I think there are many more important mmo features than leveling, and the length of leveling has a very small impact on my decision to play a game.  

Originally posted by vazghoul666

How many of you on here do the same im guessing theres alot of us that are the people who find grinding the same mob for 5 hours to get 1 level doesnt sound exciting.

Have not played an mmo that took me 6 months to level to cap.  Also I have yet to quit an mmo if I haven't played atleast one character to level cap.  Basically I disagree with your points, and what game took 5 hours to level killing the same mob?  Im guessing this is an exageration.