Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Vyeth

I think the arguments in this topic have taken two different routes..

1 side believes that this P2L is like gold selller strategy ,where you pay and the game pops you out a character of such and such level..

the other side (like myself) take this topic to mean that you pay something equivalent to how far you get in the game , say like 1 dollar per level like an mp3 from a respected music site online....

 

 

Exactly. The OP is going in the opposite direction.

ITunes = $1 a song. ZunePass, Rhapsody = $15 a month for unlimited songs.

So, what the OP wants to do is go from the ZunePass/Rhapsody model to the ITunes model. It's backwards.

exactly so, the zunepass is clearly the better buy here for the majority of us unless you really only download 1 song a month....

Once again we get the idea that players who put in more time are somehow disadvantaging those who cannot put in so much time.

A level playing field is one where all rely on their own abilities and commitment to achieve. Spending more time is just showing more commitment it does not disadvantage anyone. Would you say a guild leader who spends more time online to run his guild is making you have a poorer gaming experience? Or someone who is doing top end content before you, how does that make your experience of the game poorer?

On this basis students who spend time studying more are disadvantaging students who study less. Is your answer to this that those less committed should be able to buy their qualifications? This ridiculous idea so often touted by the casual player needs a 2 handed warhammer wrapped around it’s head.

Originally posted by Scot

Once again we get the idea that players who put in more time are somehow disadvantaging those who cannot put in so much time.

A level playing field is one where all rely on their own abilities and commitment to achieve. Spending more time is just showing more commitment it does not disadvantage anyone. Would you say a guild leader who spends more time online to run his guild is making you have a poorer gaming experience? Or someone who is doing top end content before you, how does that make your experience of the game poorer?

On this bases students who spend time studying more are disadvantaging students who study less. Is your answer to this that those less committed should be able to buy their qualifications? This ridiculous idea so often touted by the casual player needs a 2 handed warhammer wrapped around it’s head.

In a PvE game, there is no correlation between time or money invested and another players enjoyment or potential enjoyment of the game.

In a PvP game though, where levels & items = power, those that have more time have a distinct advantage and can impact on the enjoyment of the game that another player receives.

It is no different to the items in a cash shop that directly impact a characters power, one is time one is money.

This is why PvP has so many issues these, because balance can not be achieved, no matter how good the game is designed, if time or money can influence a characters power then you will not have balance. Without balance, PvP becomes pointless and futile and ultimately not fun for those who can't dedicated the time or money to winning.

So, current PvP MMO design is inherently flawed, it either favors those with time or it favors those with  money and everyone else is left out in the cold.

But as I said, in a true PvE MMO, time nor money have no impact on anyone other than the person spending the time / money.

Again.

I said that normal sub would be alternative for people that want it.

So people that play less = pay less than they pay now

People that play LOTS = pay normal subscription

Originally posted by Thradar

 No.

Paying for ANYTHING other than access to a server to send data packets ceases to be a game.  I've been a gamer for 30 years.  Seeing what some of these companies are trying to sell as gameplay models makes me want to wretch.

Gaming is about challenging yourself, or being challenged by other players...online or face to face.

MMO gaming should be like plaing a monthly fee to a fitness club that give you access to competition so you can go in and play basketball, racquetball (etc) with people.  If a fitness club was run like a lot of mmos out there you'd have to pay for the extra uber racquet or shoes.  Oh, you want the bball hoop 1 foot lower?  $5.  You want someone to play your opponent for you?  $5.

F'ing stupid gaming model.  And everyone who buys in to this model are not gamers/competitors...they are posers and should stick to Guitar Hero or something.  LOL.

My 2 cents.

This is a great post I couldn't agree more or have said it better. : ) I haven't played MMOs for the past few months because of the way I see the industry going. I want to play video games. The industry is turning this genre into something else, a big money racket. It is suppose to about gameplay.

With a game like WoW that has 80 levels, it would be a pain having to pay for every level.  I would rather have to pay every ten levels.  For example, you can level 1-10 for free but to be able to get to the 11-20 zone you have to pay a dollar.  To access 21-30 it costs $5, 31-40 costs $10, etc.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Again.

I said that normal sub would be alternative for people that want it.

 

So people that play less = pay less than they pay now

People that play LOTS = pay normal subscription

 

So we are really back to the company running the game making a business decision where they are willing to take less money per customer in an effort to attract more customers.

I like to level alts so under this plan I would be most likely paying full subscription anyway.  To me the math is pretty simple I will always choose the option where I pay less and still get the service I want.  Since there is no trade off for me here, as a customer the choice is trivial.  I will estimate how many levels I will gain per month and then see if it comes cheaper than a flat fee. 

So unless the game company is trying to pull some sort of bait-and-switch on me I will come out paying less money for a game I like enough to pay full price for.

Originally posted by bobfish

Originally posted by Scot

Once again we get the idea that players who put in more time are somehow disadvantaging those who cannot put in so much time.

A level playing field is one where all rely on their own abilities and commitment to achieve. Spending more time is just showing more commitment it does not disadvantage anyone. Would you say a guild leader who spends more time online to run his guild is making you have a poorer gaming experience? Or someone who is doing top end content before you, how does that make your experience of the game poorer?

On this bases students who spend time studying more are disadvantaging students who study less. Is your answer to this that those less committed should be able to buy their qualifications? This ridiculous idea so often touted by the casual player needs a 2 handed warhammer wrapped around it’s head.

 

In a PvE game, there is no correlation between time or money invested and another players enjoyment or potential enjoyment of the game.

In a PvP game though, where levels & items = power, those that have more time have a distinct advantage and can impact on the enjoyment of the game that another player receives.

It is no different to the items in a cash shop that directly impact a characters power, one is time one is money.

This is why PvP has so many issues these, because balance can not be achieved, no matter how good the game is designed, if time or money can influence a characters power then you will not have balance. Without balance, PvP becomes pointless and futile and ultimately not fun for those who can't dedicated the time or money to winning.

So, current PvP MMO design is inherently flawed, it either favors those with time or it favors those with  money and everyone else is left out in the cold.

 

But as I said, in a true PvE MMO, time nor money have no impact on anyone other than the person spending the time / money.

If a person found a game to require more time than they have to play and feel relavent then that person needs to quit and find a game that fits them better. All games do not have to be short instant gratification games. All games do not have to be time demanding difficult games. People need to learn to stop playing games that they feel do not fit their playtime/playstyles. 

I agree with you the only games this affects people in is PvP games. I think it is up to the person to find that new PvP that requires the playtime/playstyle they desire. Why support a game that doesn't fit you? If people want instant PvP with little time constraints, play Guild Wars. 

I wouldn't pay to lvl my main, but I might pay to lvl my alt.

Originally posted by madeux

I wouldn't pay to lvl my main, but I might pay to lvl my alt.

Why Am I not suprised

I just have to say this if you are thinking about Paying money to have someone level your toon you might be better off not subscribing to MMOS. 

This just shows the ungoing trend that more and more single player gamers are getting into the MMO market. As not many quality games, due to Piracy, are being developed for the PC. I think that a  NO lvl mmo will be the next big hit, as many people just dont seam to find leveling FUN or entertaining, or even worth thier precious TIME.

I can’t excuse the RMT shops as being OK in a PvE game. Think about this realistically, how many games come out now days with only PvE servers? Do you think a company would have a cash shop for one type of server and not another? Lets say this was a PvE game only at launch, who is to say PvP elements like an arena will not be added later?

But I also object as I see no reason why a PvE game with a monthly fee needs a cash shop, we are already paying, why do you guys want to pay more and more?

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I just had a great idea how to marry F2P game and P2P game, in a way that everyone wins !

Let say for example that WOW goes this new F2P model.

 

Here is what happens:

- The game is completely free to play and download.

- There is no item shop of any kind (except perhaps cosmetic)

 

What is the catch ?

 

When your character gains enough EXP to level. You need to pay $$$ to train and lvl up.

Lover levels cost less , higher cost more - propotionate to how much time would be invested in leveling them.

 

p.s (to explain better) = You dont automatically level. You still need to grind for XP. You only pay to train.

 

...

So why is this good ?

 

In P2P games you pay to play the game. Basically you pay for TIME.

Let say it takes two days to level from lvl 15 to lvl 16.

 

In P2L (pay to level) you also take 2 day to level from 15 to 16. But you pay only when you are DONE. And that also only if you wish.

 

So in P2P you are actually paying infront. And also for something you might not use at all

In P2L you pay after (and if) you actually used your time in game.

 

 

Benefits of this model.

1. Its F2P/P2P model fusion

2. You pay only if you play. And what you play. Not a cent more

3. You can still log in - interact with guild. Help friends. Do quests. Even if you decide to stay at certain level.

 

 

So..there is P2L system in a nutshell..

What do you think ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great idea! The problem is will the developers agree?

Originally posted by uhjpae

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I just had a great idea how to marry F2P game and P2P game, in a way that everyone wins !

Let say for example that WOW goes this new F2P model.

 

Here is what happens:

- The game is completely free to play and download.

- There is no item shop of any kind (except perhaps cosmetic)

 

What is the catch ?

 

When your character gains enough EXP to level. You need to pay $$$ to train and lvl up.

Lover levels cost less , higher cost more - propotionate to how much time would be invested in leveling them.

 

p.s (to explain better) = You dont automatically level. You still need to grind for XP. You only pay to train.

 

...

So why is this good ?

 

In P2P games you pay to play the game. Basically you pay for TIME.

Let say it takes two days to level from lvl 15 to lvl 16.

 

In P2L (pay to level) you also take 2 day to level from 15 to 16. But you pay only when you are DONE. And that also only if you wish.

 

So in P2P you are actually paying infront. And also for something you might not use at all

In P2L you pay after (and if) you actually used your time in game.

 

 

Benefits of this model.

1. Its F2P/P2P model fusion

2. You pay only if you play. And what you play. Not a cent more

3. You can still log in - interact with guild. Help friends. Do quests. Even if you decide to stay at certain level.

 

 

So..there is P2L system in a nutshell..

What do you think ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great idea! The problem is will the developers agree?

People will create a character, level it up to level 2, discover they need to pay and say, what a s*** and stop playing. The idea is original, but i doubt it would work.

All I'm seeing in this thread is the OP contiually touting how awesome his idea is and completely ignoring people who make points that crush his point of view.

When someone comes up with something to counter him he just changes his idea or adds some other option to it. It's like watching kids play make believe. "I shot you, you're dead!" says kid number one. "Nu-uh, cause I...I have this armor and it makes me bullets not hurt me." replies kid number two to which kid number one retorts, "Well, I load these special bullets that go through armor. So now you're dead!" This doesn't sit well with kid number two, so he exclaims, "I activate my magic shield then and it stops your bullets and makes me invincible!"

Seriously man, conceed defeat already.

This P2L idea is just plain stupid and is nothing more than a attempt to turn the genre into a mindless cash cow. That's all F2P's are, cash cows that don't usually actually have any real content in them. With your system devs can just make it harder and harder to level, so you focus on leveling and if there isn't really any content you don't notice.

Playing an mmorpg should be a journey to a destination, not a 'journey' -or- 'destination' BS. The reason why the bulk of content is at the end level of most games is because when people get there they have to have something to do. Not everyone likes making alts, they want to keep progressing the character they started.

This is why skill-based systems should be the future of the genre. There were some games back in the day and some games in development that have such systems. These systems are designed so that if you have more time to spend in the game, sure, you'll progress faster than someone who doesn't. On the other hand you won't ever be some kind of uber demigod to those with less free time than you, but you will have an advantage.

People who whine about not having as much free time as others need to just stop though, it's getting old. Saying that is like saying, "It's not fair that guy beats me in basketball because he has more time to practice." And yes, that is an accurate anaology because basketball is just a freaking game, I don't care if people are stupid enough to give people who are good at it millions of dollars. I also make fun of people who try to turn video games into a spectator event ("sport"), because it's ridiculous. Paying other people money for you to sit there and watch them have fun is retarded, period.

Anyway, back on track here. You're assuming that MMO's are run by ethical people or gamers. The people who run video games these days would simply use it as an excuse to pry more money out of people. I know it, everyone else knows it, you need to acknowledge it. Video games are a multi-billion dollar a year industry, it's big business run by big-business professionals who will pry every cent they can out of people.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Terrible idea.

It also demonstrates a trend that's happening (well, been happening, but really coming to the forefront lately)... That all many players seem to care about is what level they are... anything else, if it doesn't help them level faster in some way, is deemed "pointless". It seems, to me, to be the product of a mind who sees MMORPGs as "leveling grinds", and only places value in gaining xp and reaching level cap/end-game.

Your suggestion, OP, is not a step in the right direction, as it underscores the above behavior by placing an actual monetary value on levels, thus taking MMORPGs even farther away from what they were conceived as. MMORPGs are, ideally, an on-going adventure with no end where players get together to quest, socialize, engage in commerce, explore, compete, etc.. where the "game" begins at level 1 and lasts until the player decides to move on, which could be *years*.

Over the past few years, they've been steadily diluted to the point where they offer little more than fast leveling, end-game raiding and "phat lewt". Is it any wonder more and more players are finding newer MMOs to be increasingly derivative, shallow and boring? Newer MMO devs are lucky if they can keep a player's interest for even a few months.

Sorry... but I prefer to pay a flat monthly fee, the same fee as everyone else, that allows me to *play the entire game*. Leveling isn't a goal or a focus to me... Leveling is a passive thing that happens while I'm playing the game and enjoying the content.


Good grief, what the hell is this genre coming to.

This and what Thradar said just before it.

I understand the OP's idea perfectly, and laughed at the moron posts who can't seem to figure out what it meant. However for someone like me who plays anywhere from 20 to 80 characters at any given time, this system would pretty much limit me on what I can play depending on what I could afford to progress as. So essentially, it isn't any cheaper and yet it limits the high end game to people who can shell out the cash for the levels. Imagine being stuck as a level 15 in WoW or some other level based mmo.

The monthly sub is the best system in play. If you can't afford it, or you don't like it, don't play the game. It really is that simple.

I play games for fun.

If you play games for being the best, so be it. Just dont complain if I dont care.

Originally posted by blackwolf82

Originally posted by WSIMike

Terrible idea.

It also demonstrates a trend that's happening (well, been happening, but really coming to the forefront lately)... That all many players seem to care about is what level they are... anything else, if it doesn't help them level faster in some way, is deemed "pointless". It seems, to me, to be the product of a mind who sees MMORPGs as "leveling grinds", and only places value in gaining xp and reaching level cap/end-game.

Your suggestion, OP, is not a step in the right direction, as it underscores the above behavior by placing an actual monetary value on levels, thus taking MMORPGs even farther away from what they were conceived as. MMORPGs are, ideally, an on-going adventure with no end where players get together to quest, socialize, engage in commerce, explore, compete, etc.. where the "game" begins at level 1 and lasts until the player decides to move on, which could be *years*.

Over the past few years, they've been steadily diluted to the point where they offer little more than fast leveling, end-game raiding and "phat lewt". Is it any wonder more and more players are finding newer MMOs to be increasingly derivative, shallow and boring? Newer MMO devs are lucky if they can keep a player's interest for even a few months.

Sorry... but I prefer to pay a flat monthly fee, the same fee as everyone else, that allows me to *play the entire game*. Leveling isn't a goal or a focus to me... Leveling is a passive thing that happens while I'm playing the game and enjoying the content.


Good grief, what the hell is this genre coming to.

This and what Thradar said just before it.

I understand the OP's idea perfectly, and laughed at the moron posts who can't seem to figure out what it meant. However for someone like me who plays anywhere from 20 to 80 characters at any given time, this system would pretty much limit me on what I can play depending on what I could afford to progress as. So essentially, it isn't any cheaper and yet it limits the high end game to people who can shell out the cash for the levels. Imagine being stuck as a level 15 in WoW or some other level based mmo.

The monthly sub is the best system in play. If you can't afford it, or you don't like it, don't play the game. It really is that simple.

Instead of item shop crap I could see a MMO have both a monthly subscription model + pay as you go option. Maybe not as the original poster has dreamed up but maybe by the day or hour. Maybe the players with less time could choose to pay per day and the person that plays a lot may go for the monthly sub model? 

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Originally posted by madeux

I wouldn't pay to lvl my main, but I might pay to lvl my alt.

 

Why Am I not suprised

I just have to say this if you are thinking about Paying money to have someone level your toon you might be better off not subscribing to MMOS. 

This just shows the ungoing trend that more and more single player gamers are getting into the MMO market. As not many quality games, due to Piracy, are being developed for the PC. I think that a  NO lvl mmo will be the next big hit, as many people just dont seam to find leveling FUN or entertaining, or even worth thier precious TIME.

When games like WoW, for example, are so centered on End Game content, you will always find people who want to skip the lvling and get to the "real" game.

And for the record, I have never paid anyone to lvl a character for me.  I lvl'd a couple of twinks myself, and that would be an example of where I might be willing to pay to lvl.