Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by Waterlily 

I do agree with this. If we straight up compare EQ to WoW, yes EQ's abilities are much harder to control and you are much more prone to making mistakes.

It doesn't really matter what the hell I push on my WOW action bar, if I hit something wrong it won't wipe my raid.

 

Spoken like a true DPS player in WoW...

Sigh.

You even miss one GCD as a Healer or mess up a threat rotation as a Tank and you can, and often do, wipe your raid.

Anyone who thinks WOW raiding is "easy" either never got past Naxx 10 or Kara or is really good at the game, and thinks because they are so good it's so easy.

Hmm... so good.. so it's... easy....

FUCKING DUUUHHHHH

nobody is saying its "Easy".   I am simply saying its Easier compared to EQ.

So WoW is easy compared to EQ1.   Do you get it?

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Interesting 

Its not about reaching the end of the line and getting satisfied. The end of the line is your comparative distance from everyone at all times, thats competitiveness, thats character progression. Character progression only makes sense because of that superiority feeling, once people catch up it ceases to exist. Without character progression its not an MMORPG anymore. You dont evaluate it from the start. You evaluate it at ALL TIMES.

Its always about comparison, how far, how superior, what is your advantage over others due to your progression.

In a dinamic persistent world, the lack of character progression (or possibility to evolve further once someone catch up) represent a stalemate. Its a contradiction.

If the MMORPG allows people to catch up (with reachable level caps) without allowing players to keep progressing (to keep their advantage, power, whatever benefits from their character progression), there is no more incentive for achievers, no more time sink, no meaningfull reward for the time and effort spent. The meaningfull reward is not something in itself that you get alla single player games, its meaningfull due to the fact that only you have and others dont, or meaningfull because its something you have over others.

You mention all those games, but keep using WOW as reference to define MMORPGs.

WOW introduced a series of new mechanics that were very successfull, but ultimatelly destroyed the genre.

What we are discussing: instant gratification is the general desired effect of those new design decisions in WOW.

And because of WOW was so successfull, for reasons that we can discuss if you want (but its beating a dead horse unless I feel you dont know what Im talking about), and other games try to copy it, thats why we are stuck with such instant gratification mechanics.

But my overall point is that casual players have no right to demand such game mechanics and design decisions to try to compete with hardcore players. Its against the genre in so many levels, I already explained to you, but you refused without counterarguing.

Clearly, you want an endless treadmill where hours played = power. That's your preference and that's fine. But that's not what MMOs are about or why people play them.

Continuing this debate is fruitless; you're entrenched in the ideal image you have in your mind about an MMO where you can continue to outpace everyone ad inifinitum. We're not discussing the current state of MMOs, you're peddling your own opinions and preferences as an ideal, and I've no interest in that.

So, I'll leave you with one point; you're absolutely wrong in your assertion that casuals want instant gratification.

If anything, it's the polar opposite. Casuals are willing to slowly work towards (for example) a set of level 100 equipment, whereas it's the hardcores who rush to get the same set of level 100 equipment.

In essence, they rush towards the gratification because they want it faster.

For the purpose of this topic, opposing to instant gratification, an endless treadmill is what I want.

Outside of this topic, Im more prone to player skill = power games, but Im still waiting for it to become mainstream on MMOs.

I agree with you that we wont agree about what MMOs are about. As though why people play them, I reserve the right to specify that "Achievers" play MMOs for the reasons I exposed,  Killers (in games where time = power and reward/allow pvp tend to be included, although a series of restrictions apply), Explorers and Socializers, have their own reasons and I dont include them on my claim.

Those four types of players are classified by the Bartle test you must be acquainted to and Im sure you dont oppose to such classification.

Either casuals or hardcore players both have a bit of each of those 4 steryotipes, those who want instant gratification are not achievers, unless you consider achievers those who just want to achieve things regardless of their time and effort spent, whose claim would bring us back to the definition of achievers, but I dont think you will adventure through such terrain.

Casual players might not want instant gratification, and thats not my claim.

My claim is about the contradictory/inconsistence of casual players wanting game mechanics/design decisions that allow them to compete with hardcore players. I use the terms hardcore and casual just to avoid the elipse of "people who spend more/less time and effort".

Also, there is mention of casual players wanting a level 100 item that a hardcore players just achieved, well, for me, according to my beliefs, thats ridiculous. It wouldnt be such a problem if players in general didnt started to play MMOs with "end game" goals in mind, such as the level 100 item in the example.

Im not opposed to their right of having access to "all content", Im against the idea behind "all content" itself. If there wasnt a concept of "all content" in the first place, people wouldnt be bragging about why its so hard to achieve it. To avoid that, I think MMORPGs should be made like Star Wars TOR is being made, creating an achievable story driven content, just so casuals can get satisfied with that, every time and effort spent outside the story arch, whose purpose is just to progress the character vertically shouldnt be marketted to casual players, it shouldnt even be marketted at all, it should silently exist just to please achievers who want endless progression and meaningfull rewards for their consistent time and effort spent even after the "vanilla story" has ended.

Those hardcore achievers, after amassing enourmous power, long after having completed whatever story driven elements, would righteously own those casual who just played the story mode and decided to do some PVP. Once pwned, they would either start working hard themselfs, since the game should be worth it or doesnt try at all, because its not worth it and because they already "finished it" (the achievable story-driven content). Such would put the MMORPGs back to its axis.

Originally posted by Interesting

Also, you are not splitting a community. Communities were born split, based on subjective difference from players = the ammount of time and effort they spend to progress their characters on the persistent world of MMORPGs. Thats how it was when the first MMORPGs appeared, regardless what MMORPG school it derived from.

Its that or its not an MMORPG at all.

Want to escape from that rule? Devs have to label their games Multiplayer Online Games and its all fine by me, but not MMORPGs.

MMORPGs are about virtual worlds where people live in, worlds that persist regardless of the player and characters progressing and evolving along with the world. Is that clear enough now?

 

LOL .. says you???

So WOW is catering to the casuals. It *is* marketed as a MMORPG. What are you going to do? Go to a gamestop and yell that it is not, that it should be MOG instead of MMORPG?? 

These are all games, some more persistent than others. People really do NOT care about your definition.

Originally posted by terrant

Now, about whether casuals want instant grat or not. I think the confusion here stems from the fact that there are, in essence, two types of casuals. for instance, I consider myself one. I work full time and have a life outside of gaming. I only play a few hours a week usually. I DON'T want the best uber gear naows kthxbye. I DO believe that I should be entitled to good (not the best, but good) gear if I take time and put effort in. I DO believe I should be able to see whatever game content I want without being hardcore. It shouldn't be that only the guys that play 60+ hours a week can fight Arthas, for an example. Everyone should be able to see that if they work for it! The hardcore guys should get it first, and (maybe) get better rewards for the effort they put in. But we're playing the same game, we should have access to (mostly) the same content. I don't expect to ever be as good geared, or do the most difficult hard mode challenges, but I shouldn't be penalized as a player because I don't spend my entire life at my keyboard. Nor, however, should I expect to be rewarded the same as those who do.

There is a second category of person, who wants it all now with no work put in. I hate them as much as hardcore players do.

 

Very reasonable.

Let casual players fight and defeat Arthas, its fine.

But dont cap the game so it doesnt matter how hard hardcore players work, their rewards wont be meaningfull and effective to the point when they can just overpower Arthas like the casuals would never be able to do. Thats what I think should be the difference. Casuals should be able to do it in a raid group, in lets say less than one month. But if hardcore players keep playing for 6 months 10+ hours a day non stop whatever hard work they spent should translate to meaningfull rewards/power so that they would easilly kill Arthas in a little group like it was nothing. That would be meaningfull.

We worked hard, we spent so much time and effort, that we evolved and progressed to a point that what once was hard (kill Arthas) when we were barelly able to do it (at the power curve of casual players after one month after the release of the expansion) and now we can even kill him in a little group! Thats proof that our time spent was worthy, because it caused a meaningfull effect.

Thats it. Not like it is now, where if hardcore players spent 2 thousand hours they just get a little stronger, no. They should get many times stronger, without diminishing returns auto-balancing their strenght from the casual players. Such mechanics just removes the reward aspect from the achievers and those who love the game and want to play it over and over and still feel rewarded like they did in the first month.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Interesting

Also, you are not splitting a community. Communities were born split, based on subjective difference from players = the ammount of time and effort they spend to progress their characters on the persistent world of MMORPGs. Thats how it was when the first MMORPGs appeared, regardless what MMORPG school it derived from.

Its that or its not an MMORPG at all.

Want to escape from that rule? Devs have to label their games Multiplayer Online Games and its all fine by me, but not MMORPGs.

MMORPGs are about virtual worlds where people live in, worlds that persist regardless of the player and characters progressing and evolving along with the world. Is that clear enough now?

 

 

LOL .. says you???

So WOW is catering to the casuals. It *is* marketed as a MMORPG. What are you going to do? Go to a gamestop and yell that it is not, that it should be MOG instead of MMORPG?? 

These are all games, some more persistent than others. People really do NOT care about your definition.

 

Go read the sheep analogy some posts above.

Originally posted by Interesting

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Interesting

Also, you are not splitting a community. Communities were born split, based on subjective difference from players = the ammount of time and effort they spend to progress their characters on the persistent world of MMORPGs. Thats how it was when the first MMORPGs appeared, regardless what MMORPG school it derived from.

Its that or its not an MMORPG at all.

Want to escape from that rule? Devs have to label their games Multiplayer Online Games and its all fine by me, but not MMORPGs.

MMORPGs are about virtual worlds where people live in, worlds that persist regardless of the player and characters progressing and evolving along with the world. Is that clear enough now?

 

 

LOL .. says you???

So WOW is catering to the casuals. It *is* marketed as a MMORPG. What are you going to do? Go to a gamestop and yell that it is not, that it should be MOG instead of MMORPG?? 

These are all games, some more persistent than others. People really do NOT care about your definition.

 

 

Go read the sheep analogy some posts above.

Millions of people play HALO3. Millions of people watched Star Trek. Millions of people followed 24. We are all sheep anyway. There is nothing wrong with it and it is fun.

In the sheep analogy, people arent the sheep.

The sheep is the MMO genre.

WOW killed the genre by modifying everything for the sake of the sheeps meat (success)

But you can only kill the sheep for its meat once.

Now we are left with the consequences of the dead sheep: design decisions like instant gratification is one of them.

The sheep is dead and we cant change people who were influenced by WOW. Neither other developers who cant skin the sheep for its fur anymore either.

Now that the sheep is dead, other developers cant skin it.

People are left without the fur, and the meat is ending.

Originally posted by Palebane

I'm a big advocate of allowing people to play games however they want, and it's nice for the game developers to try to cater to everybody. However, it's hard to play like you want when you want to find a group and make friends, but most players would rather solo, or never even speak to the group when you do invite them. It's just my opinion, but I believe that gear progression has alot to do with this, which relates to instant gratification somewhat. The emphasis has moved away from the community as a whole, and is now focused on individual statistics to a very large degree in alot of current games.

The problem is, most groups are just a lose association of individuals all in it for individual loot and individual XP, who would stab another team member in the back if it meant getting an extra share of the take.  There is no impetus for anyone to talk in a group, everyone is too busy trying to rush through content as fast as possible to grab as much XP in as short a period of time as possible.  Group, get to the end fast, get out of the group and count your winnings.

That's supposed to be something to look forward to?  At least playing solo, I've never screwed myself over for an item.

Originally posted by Interesting

In the sheep analogy, people arent the sheep.

The sheep is the MMO genre.

WOW killed the genre by modifying everything for the sake of the sheeps meat (success)

But you can only kill the sheep for its meat once.

Now we are left with the consequences of the dead sheep: design decisions like instant gratification is one of them.

The sheep is dead and we cant change people who were influenced by WOW. Neither other developers who cant skin the sheep for its fur anymore either.

Now that the sheep is dead, other developers cant skin it.

People are left without the fur, and the meat is ending.

That's a bloody silly analogy you have there; they're supposed to clarify, not convolute.

It would be far simpler if you stay away from analogies and just say what you mean.

WoW has brought many non-traditional MMO gamers into the genre.

This in turn leads profit-minded developers to design their products with the aim of catering to this newly emergent mainstream market rather than to the diehard fans of pre-WoW MMOs; i.e. you.

Unfortunate as it may be, two things are true:

1. Developers will continue to target mainstream majorities in order to maximise profits.
2. That newly emergent mainstream ain't going away.

There's a symbiotic relationship at work here; the developers get a large market (and are happy) and the mainstream gets a steady influx of new games to choose from (and are also happy).

The only unhappy party is, well .. you. You're a minority, which means that there is no benefit for a large developer to prioritise your needs/desires over the mainstream market when deciding how to spend their $100m development money.

The only hope that you have is for indie developers, who generally aren't well funded, to target a game specifically at your playstyle in the hope of cashing in by filling a niche. Best of luck with that; everyone deserves to find an MMO they enjoy.

Just don't expect yours to be a AAA title, 'cos you're just setting yourself up for frustration.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

That kind of gratification is missing the accomplishment. You didn't work for it, it feels like nothing. What's the purpose then, when you get really nothing out of it after a while?

Don't take this the wrong way, but the idea of "accomplishment" for sitting in front of your computer or TV with a keyboard/mouse or controller in your hand seems a bit silly.  Moving an imaginary charcter around an imaginary world and thinking you've actually managed to do something worthwhile that you ought to be proud of.. um... sure.

It's a form of entertainment, something to do when you've got nothing better to do.  The idea of being "hardcore" is utterly ridiculous, it's like "hardcore" stamp collecting.  People with that kind of outlook probably ought to get out of their mother's basements.

Originally posted by Interesting 

Very reasonable.

Let casual players fight and defeat Arthas, its fine.

But dont cap the game so it doesnt matter how hard hardcore players work, their rewards wont be meaningfull and effective to the point when they can just overpower Arthas like the casuals would never be able to do. Thats what I think should be the difference. Casuals should be able to do it in a raid group, in lets say less than one month. But if hardcore players keep playing for 6 months 10+ hours a day non stop whatever hard work they spent should translate to meaningfull rewards/power so that they would easilly kill Arthas in a little group like it was nothing. That would be meaningfull.

We worked hard, we spent so much time and effort, that we evolved and progressed to a point that what once was hard (kill Arthas) when we were barelly able to do it (at the power curve of casual players after one month after the release of the expansion) and now we can even kill him in a little group! Thats proof that our time spent was worthy, because it caused a meaningfull effect.

Thats it. Not like it is now, where if hardcore players spent 2 thousand hours they just get a little stronger, no. They should get many times stronger, without diminishing returns auto-balancing their strenght from the casual players. Such mechanics just removes the reward aspect from the achievers and those who love the game and want to play it over and over and still feel rewarded like they did in the first month.

Isn't this exactly what Blizzard is doing?

The power level between progressive raider and a 'casual' is quite apparent in the game.  A 'casual' who just reached 80 will struggle in trying to complete a level 80 instance or a entry level heroic.  A 'casual' who has been working on gearing up and has 5man heroic and emblem epics will do fine in most heroics but still struggle with some of the harder events and achievements.  A well geared 10man raider will have little problem with heroics and a 25man raider will 'faceroll' his way through them.

Now that 'casuals'  are slowly catching up to the progressive raiders, Blizzards is working on bringing a new set of content that will introduce new gear that will make the progressive raiders even more powerfull so entry level casual content will be a joke to them.

Originally posted by terrant

Again. Please remember the roots of all RPGs are tabletoppers like D&D. Think you're gonna get epic-level magical weapons and a rod of wishes just for wallking around town and killing 1-2 kobolds by yourself? No. You might get some decent gear, but unless your GM runs a Monty Haul, you're going to need a full party for that level of reward. you can't give people that kind of reward for solo play even IF you develop a solo caompaign that complex, involved, and challenging. Simple because some roles in games are not suited to difficult solo fights. And if you tailor those roles/classes' campaigns to be that much easier, the ones who have it harder will feel like they were punished for being more capable of soloing. You can't win.

Also, if you're playing MMOs just to talk/mingle, let me introduce you to a little thing called IRC.

Except it's not.  Oh, it's nice to think that tabletop RPGs are the precursors of the MMO, but it just isn't the case.  In a tabletop RPG, the only way to play at all is to get a group of people together around the same table and play.  If the group can't make it, you can't play.  But in an MMO, there's no group, no table, just you and your computer and you can get online any time you want, whether there's anyone to group with in the game or not.

People who only want to play in games where you have to be in a group ought to go back to sitting around a table, but the rest of the planet has moved on from that, that's why the tabletop RPG industry is in the crapper.

Lets face it, hardcores embrace the "caste" system in MMOs while casuals do not.  We will never get along and arguing about it will never change anyone's mind.  They are competing play styles and developers are still too stupid to realize that mixing them together in the same game is bad business.  Of course, hardcores love the mix.  It guarantees a constant influx of noobles for them to lord it over by flashing their e-peens.

Once developers get a clue in this regard, I forsee the MMO genre really taking off beyond anything that WoW ever achieved.  There are more console and single player gamers than MMO gamers.  Do you think we'll ever draw them in with hardcore game play?  It's already proven to be true that they won't be drawn in, but we've yet to see a true casual game with no hardcore elements in it at all, other than kiddie games.  Once it does happen, you'll be amazed at the explosion of new players to the genre.  Hell, even Free Realms, kiddie game extreme, has more Western subscribers than WoW.  The majority of WoW subscribers are outside of the West.

Originally posted by MarL

I dont think getting an item, getting a level, doing a quest, or killing an ai monster  is an accomplishment. Usually its just something I have to dredge through to get to the fun part of the game PvP.

Since when did PvP get to be fun?  It's usually a bunch of losers hiding behind computer screens waving their ridiculous e-peens around screaming "LOOK AT MY DICK!"

Sorry, where's the fun again?

PvP is more popular than raiding, but that isn't saying much.  Niche gamers feel the need to push their play style exactly because it is niche.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Interesting 

Very reasonable.

Let casual players fight and defeat Arthas, its fine.

But dont cap the game so it doesnt matter how hard hardcore players work, their rewards wont be meaningfull and effective to the point when they can just overpower Arthas like the casuals would never be able to do. Thats what I think should be the difference. Casuals should be able to do it in a raid group, in lets say less than one month. But if hardcore players keep playing for 6 months 10+ hours a day non stop whatever hard work they spent should translate to meaningfull rewards/power so that they would easilly kill Arthas in a little group like it was nothing. That would be meaningfull.

We worked hard, we spent so much time and effort, that we evolved and progressed to a point that what once was hard (kill Arthas) when we were barelly able to do it (at the power curve of casual players after one month after the release of the expansion) and now we can even kill him in a little group! Thats proof that our time spent was worthy, because it caused a meaningfull effect.

Thats it. Not like it is now, where if hardcore players spent 2 thousand hours they just get a little stronger, no. They should get many times stronger, without diminishing returns auto-balancing their strenght from the casual players. Such mechanics just removes the reward aspect from the achievers and those who love the game and want to play it over and over and still feel rewarded like they did in the first month.

Isn't this exactly what Blizzard is doing?

The power level between progressive raider and a 'casual' is quite apparent in the game.  A 'casual' who just reached 80 will struggle in trying to complete a level 80 instance or a entry level heroic.  A 'casual' who has been working on gearing up and has 5man heroic and emblem epics will do fine in most heroics but still struggle with some of the harder events and achievements.  A well geared 10man raider will have little problem with heroics and a 25man raider will 'faceroll' his way through them.

Now that 'casuals'  are slowly catching up to the progressive raiders, Blizzards is working on bringing a new set of content that will introduce new gear that will make the progressive raiders even more powerfull so entry level casual content will be a joke to them.

I wish it were even more pronounced.

I just watched Blizzcon 2008 Q&A pannel yesterday and one of the things that stuck with me was

"We never say never, except for a few things: WOW will always be an item based game".

Originally posted by Interesting

Originally posted by Torik 

Isn't this exactly what Blizzard is doing?

The power level between progressive raider and a 'casual' is quite apparent in the game.  A 'casual' who just reached 80 will struggle in trying to complete a level 80 instance or a entry level heroic.  A 'casual' who has been working on gearing up and has 5man heroic and emblem epics will do fine in most heroics but still struggle with some of the harder events and achievements.  A well geared 10man raider will have little problem with heroics and a 25man raider will 'faceroll' his way through them.

Now that 'casuals'  are slowly catching up to the progressive raiders, Blizzards is working on bringing a new set of content that will introduce new gear that will make the progressive raiders even more powerfull so entry level casual content will be a joke to them.

 

I wish it were even more pronounced.

I just watched Blizzcon 2008 Q&A pannel yesterday and one of the things that stuck with me was

"We never say never, except for a few things: WOW will always be an item based game".

 

If the gear gap was larger then they recreate their problems from vanilla WoW and give the raiders too much of an advantage in PvP.  Then they have to raise the power of the basic PvP gear to compensate and we are back to the Eazy Epics argument.

Plus they do not really need to raise the power level of the raid gear any further without adding another 'wall' to the raid progression.  As it is right now it allows a smoother transition between raid tiers without having to have everyone completely geared out before attempting the next tier. 

Anyway it's not like the raiders are 'better' players and have some natural right to gear way better then what a 'casual' can get.  They get more powerful gear because they are doing content that requires more powerful gear.  Anything else is just vanity and 'epeen' issues.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Interesting

Originally posted by Torik 

Isn't this exactly what Blizzard is doing?

The power level between progressive raider and a 'casual' is quite apparent in the game.  A 'casual' who just reached 80 will struggle in trying to complete a level 80 instance or a entry level heroic.  A 'casual' who has been working on gearing up and has 5man heroic and emblem epics will do fine in most heroics but still struggle with some of the harder events and achievements.  A well geared 10man raider will have little problem with heroics and a 25man raider will 'faceroll' his way through them.

Now that 'casuals'  are slowly catching up to the progressive raiders, Blizzards is working on bringing a new set of content that will introduce new gear that will make the progressive raiders even more powerfull so entry level casual content will be a joke to them.

 

I wish it were even more pronounced.

I just watched Blizzcon 2008 Q&A pannel yesterday and one of the things that stuck with me was

"We never say never, except for a few things: WOW will always be an item based game".

 

If the gear gap was larger then they recreate their problems from vanilla WoW and give the raiders too much of an advantage in PvP.  Then they have to raise the power of the basic PvP gear to compensate and we are back to the Eazy Epics argument.

Plus they do not really need to raise the power level of the raid gear any further without adding another 'wall' to the raid progression.  As it is right now it allows a smoother transition between raid tiers without having to have everyone completely geared out before attempting the next tier. 

Anyway it's not like the raiders are 'better' players and have some natural right to gear way better then what a 'casual' can get.  They get more powerful gear because they are doing content that requires more powerful gear.  Anything else is just vanity and 'epeen' issues.

It doesnt satisfy me the way it is now, therefore I quit back then. Limiting  (balancing difference of time and effort spent) my progression to allow casuals to compete is giving them instant gratification, the gratification to compete with me, whose power wasnt instantly achieved.

I think Devs these days have  almost no say  in creating something that is out of the ordinary, i guess its bc the publishers and marketing department  are the ones that  pulling the strings. If the quick shiny roxxor armor is the key to  Joe's wallet  he can have it , they want the shiny $$. 

Seems lots of the MMO players  who want some real  innovation in the MMO department are  still a minority , cuz these guys do their researches before they spend money on anything and from  those researches (i guess) they built the pattern for the game mechanics ect.

 Horse is already dead, so stop beating it more :/