Theres been many attempts at being unique and innovative and they've all failed.  The one game that has collected the GOOD innovation and left out the bad ones is the most successful.

Still can't say I understand.

So why are we still trying to find new innovation instead of just using the ones that work and leave out the ones that don't?

Is it because we'd rather try to find our creative spotlight in time rather than being successful?

--
And yes, out of the top 4 reasons why I left is because everything in WoW looked the same after time and I kept thinking "I would love to play this game if they just changed all the content but kept the logic."

Originally posted by arenasb

If what they are doing isn't innovative than what is?

I would say UO, EQ, DAOC, GW would all be examples of innovative games because at the time they were all introduced, they brought something new to the table.

UO brought the virtual world.  EQ brought class and levels.  DAOC brought realm versus realm.  Guild Wars brought henchmen. 

Originally posted by Terranah

Originally posted by arenasb

If what they are doing isn't innovative than what is?

 

I would say UO, EQ, DAOC, GW would all be examples of innovative games because at the time they were all introduced, they brought something new to the table.

 

UO brought the virtual world.  EQ brought class and levels.  DAOC brought realm versus realm.  Guild Wars brought henchmen. 

I would also add Eve Online to your list as a game which helped involve meta gaming, real world economics integrated into the game, and also politics having a huge impact on the game world as a whole.  

Its really pretty simple.

If people don't like what they are hearing about the game, then they don't have to play it.  Find something else that suits your gaming preferences.  Not every new MMO coming out is going to (or has to) cater to everyone's differing playstyles.

Originally posted by Airwren

Originally posted by Terranah

Originally posted by arenasb

If what they are doing isn't innovative than what is?

 

I would say UO, EQ, DAOC, GW would all be examples of innovative games because at the time they were all introduced, they brought something new to the table.

 

UO brought the virtual world.  EQ brought class and levels.  DAOC brought realm versus realm.  Guild Wars brought henchmen. 

I would also add Eve Online to your list as a game which helped involve meta gaming, real world economics integrated into the game, and also politics having a huge impact on the game world as a whole.  

Yeah very true. 

Maybe I would add SWG because it had the land based game and introduced the space component.  I don't think anyone had done that yet.  There's lots of examples of innovation in the mmo business.  Keep them coming people...

Originally posted by arenasb

If what they are doing isn't innovative than what is?

Nothing has been truly innovative yet, but along the way most games have introduced one new step over the old games.

First there were MUDs.

Then The Realm created a 2d side scrolling graphical version.

UO created isometric and a much more open world then the Realm and took out screen loading and instanced combat. Probably the most innovative overall.

EQ added 3D and focused more on quests. Used the D&D class system as it's base.

AC (devoloped at same time as EQ and released within a couple months of it) used 3D and a seamless world, expanded on the skill system of UO. It took out the safe zone of cities for PvP that UO had.

AC2 added the current interface and game layout you see used in almost all modern MMOs.

DAoC added Realm vs Realm and battlegrounds.

WoW added the quick leveling/focus on end game.

EQ2 added character voices.

DDO added built in VOIP.

LotRO added Monster Play in a workable form (yes EQ had it but it didn't work out too well).

On their own none of them were innovative, they took what worked and reused it, then they tried adding something new. The next game in the series kept the new if it worked and then added it's own new.

This is why it is so ridiculous everytime someone quotes the new game coming out as truly innovative. SW:tOR sees what works and is taking all the parts that work and putting them in one game. They are also seeing that currently a lot of people like to solo so they are focusing their game on the solo experience. But there isn't anything they're doing that is actually innovative.

It may turn out good it may not, but the over-eager need to get a grip on what it actually is.

Full voice acting for every character  requiring 1000s of actors  I would say thats pretty damn innovative. Quit bitching about story holy hell.  Bioware is focusing a major part of their game on story, cool.  Were they the first to do it no but who really cares. Innovation isnt the key its doing it well. There can be plenty of games with innovative ideas that flop because they are poorly implemented. I think why most people are excited for this game is 1.) From Bioware we can expect a well done polished game 2.) a great story line similar to that of the KOTORs

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by blotz

honestly

i think it will be just another " guided experiance"  with a different name slapped on the box

 

 

would you care to enlightend us on how you came to your divine conclusions? 

Bioware only puts out crappy games?  Bioware just pushes poor copies of already existing games?  Bioware never innovates?  Hmmm... It seems that none of these apply, so I can only assume you must have some great knowledge that the rest of us are lacking.

That, or you are just talking out of your ass.

Nah, he is absolutely right if you consider the info we have at this time. Apart from the words "just another", that is ...

It WILL be a guided experience in some way; a focus on story driven gameplay + high on single player content make that fairly obvious.

What remains to be seen is whether that is a problem or not and if it hurts the long time playability. It could also be the genious addition to the genre we all waited for.

But personally I think guided experiences, no matter how compelling, can only work in an mmo if they are be balanced with more than enough open ended and public content and if the main storylines feel like a natural part of the total experience and won't get obtrusive in any way. We will have to see about that.

I'm the kind of guy that avoids guidance like the plague (as in: playing the Elder Scrolls, X-universe and Fallout games for years and years but never bothering with the main quests, simply because being THE hero did never appeal to me from a RP perspective), so I am really curious whether SW:TOR will manage to draw me in.

For me, everything depends on how that story driven gameplay is implemented.

I think its that there are just so many things that a game with 12,000 to a server could do and seeing the same things as in a single-player game is just disheartening.  It is innovation only to a degree, because story is something we have seen, just in a different form.

The following are examples of innovation:

Why has player government not been a popular feature?  How about letting players become members of the jedi council and run for election?  Let me be the supreme chancellor and tax players in order to build more city content.  Let there be guilds who can rebel, or switch sides.  How about a ton more world events that shape the history of a server instead of pre-created story?  If a guild becomes big enough, why can't they be a faction choice?

NPC towns for the opposite faction, LET US DESTROY THEM.  They need to be able to defend themselves.  I am not saying destroy completely, the plot of land could even remain in their hands, I just think that we should be able to occupy their lands for a certain amount of time and destroy their buildings.  And please, reward us for our valiant efforts.  How about a ceremony held with new NPC dialogue in honor of the guild?  I know it sounds ridiculous, but honestly that would be a cool thing to kill the one-time spawned monster and get a feast, etc.

How about procedural boss fights?  Why is it always "Go here, click on the box when he yells 'I hate humans,' and nuke until he turns black, then run behind for cover," rinse and repeat.  How about a GM controls a dragon that spawned in front of a main city?  How about the scale the dragon drops is the only one that will ever drop, and it can be used to make an actually unique sword?  What about housing, a feature that isn't in many MMO's be included  for the people who want that?  What about Guild Halls?  How about making just enough guild keeps that actually keeping them is realistic, but not enough that every guild gets one?  This would cause wars amongst guilds!

Video game customers don't know what video game customers want.  Video game customers are sheep, which is why WoW has 11 million subs and every Call of Duty released for the rest of history will sell 11 million copies as well.  An example of what was going to be an innovative FPS was Six Days At Fallujah, until it was dropped.  I hope that they make up some war, call the game something different and use the same technology because that game was the most realistic war simulation game to date.  Things like this make me agitated.

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk

It may turn out good it may not, but the over-eager need to get a grip on what it actually is.

Its true this game could go either way, all games can, but in the end if someone wants to get exited about something.....whats wrong with that? I dont think they need ot get a grip, but you really need to get a life...

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk

Originally posted by Mathrym

I agree with OP. I really dislike seeing people flame a game that isn't out yet without giving it a chance. And not only that, they are flaming Bioware who has virtually flawless history of games.

A good storyline is essential to a RPG, may it be single player or MMO. So what that it is possible to solo the whole game, it's also possible to do it with groups. And they did say that the game will incorporate most elements of current MMORPGs(I'm thinking of PvP, achievements and hopefully RvR). I'm not the biggest Star Wars fan, but I can see that this game has lots of potential to be very successful and will most likely give it a try once it gets out.

 

I see the opposite of that. I hate people who fall in love with a game that no real details have been released on, and then they turn around and call the game (which has no details out on it, let alone even beta tested or played it) innovative and will change MMOs. You see these same people pop up everytime before a game is released, getting pissed and attacking everyone who has the sense to realize nothing will be innovative or different.

 

But then again everytime a game is released those people mysteriously disappear and don't post anymore because they now realize the game isn't innovative, and often times isn't even good. So they don't want to be around when everyone is pointing out how they got their panties all bunched up when other people tried to explain it all before hand.

 

The fanboys are the ones who do more flaming then anyone else on the boards, bring on the next flame at me for pointing this out now.

Have you read any of the contradictions you made? lol

Mathrym: I really dislike seeing people flame a game that isn't out yet without giving it a chance.

AllNewMMOSuk: I hate people who fall in love with a game that no real details have been released on.

Your whole entire argument pretty much fell apart when you said Fanboy. It showed that you'll always look for something to hate, no matter what it could be, when when there is so little information.
Which fits pretty much into what the OP said, You're a very naive individual.

Your name also points to why you said Fanboy, Irony!

well whenever ppl  start  (no matter on what topic here) using phrases like Fanboi; hater ;carebear or become all of a sudden gramma nazis ect. to defend/underline their arguments, they reached imo the point where they're incapable to have a discussion in a civil manner .Some Ppl only want a  Bash/Flame Festival.

That said i think this site is the best MMO on the market right now isnt it ? :)

YAWN!.. the game will never be good enough for some, others its spot on blah blah.  It will come out with something not finished people will still pay some will bitch others with say best MMO EVER! Just like AION.. people crying its crap, others say its going to steal millions from WOW LMAO.. ok. others call it a wow clone..

Just play it when it comes out.. if you like it PAY if not cancel.

I only have 2 fears with sw:tor, being them:

1- be overly instanced. I despise overly instanced games like AOC, Yet since  Blizzard introduced the "phasing" concept, might be possible for Bioware to use the same idea, and in the process, allowing players to have some sense of impact on the gameoworld. Yet only time will tell.

2-EA pulling a "micro transiction business model"  on the players. Can cope with it, but If i couold chose, would go against.

On the rest naysayers and supporters can be wrong or right. We have to wait and see.

Originally posted by Praxus1874

 And now this becomes a speculation war on both sides, like every other thread.  I really wish that Bioware would release something new on this game so that we could put some of these discussions to rest, or at least have something better to discuss while we wait for the game to come out.

Prax  

QFT

Originally posted by andmiller

The bottom line is you guys don't want something new, you just want a variation of whatever game you liked in MMO history.

For me something new if fine or a good variation of an old favorite, story or no story as long as it's diverse with options, not something simple and generic and limited to me vs PVE/AI most the time.

And as far as SWTOR which is what it looks like your real focus is then I love the SW story line, esp pre Vader-R2D2. So in that regards it's still to early to tell but it is starting to look like it may just be a game like the other Bioware games and wont hold an interest for longer than 6 months-year. I am neither angry or cranky about the current options but I do have an opinion that reflects being disappointed at the last few years of MMO productions.

The bottom line is, will the next game captivate for any length of time vs the time I invest into building a game class/career. Or after I reach max lvl and experience the end game will it bore me to no end and feel like my time was wasted for a limited experience

please bring back pre-cu SWG!!!! Please!!! I need it!!! I have to have it!!!! Please bring it back!!! I cant continue on with my life without it!!!! Please!!! For the love of Christ please!!!!

This is a semi response to the OP and to one person who said WoW and FFXI were both based on a central story.

Eh.  You really can't compare WoW's storyline to FFXI's.  Yes WoW has a storyline, but it comes in disjointed bits and chunks and it isn't really comparable to the storylines in FFXI.  Don't get me wrong, WoW has some nice quest sequences and the cut scenes they do have (I've only seen the one in northrend) was awesome.

Here is an explation that probably isn't going to do justice to FFXI, but I'll try to summarize it:

Take a generic asian grinder MMO.  Now add a FF-like single player story line with a multitude of boss and dungeon encounters where you need a group to complete.   You slowly progress through the story line and complete more sections as you level up higher.  During each section there are a variety of engaging characters that explain the past of Vanadiel along with gripping cutscenes.

For some expansion storylines, the more you complete the more areas are unlocked to you for you to explore.  Add all of this with one of the best communities I've ever seen, and you have FFXI. :)

If TOR pulls off a great storyline they will have me hooked to the game. :)

I see a lot of people talking about assumptions on bothe sides here.  Why not take what information we have been given about the game at face value, and quit speculating on how much it will suck/not-suck.  The hands on from E3 showed nothing about a story line that had to be followed, it seemed to be nothing more than a simple quest that much more involved than the quest lines we are used to seeing.  That, VO for characters, and a dedicated class quest story is all we really know.

Innovation is a very poor word to use when talking about MMO;

innovation  Show Spelled Pronunciation [in-uh-vey-shuhn] Show IPA
–noun 1. something new or different introduced: numerous innovations in the high-school curriculum.
           2. the act of innovating; introduction of new things or methods.

                                  -Dictionary.com

Very few MMO's do this, if any.  Refining or improving already existing mechanics is obviously not the same thing.  Wait and see, is probably he best approach to have until new information is released.

-Edit: stupidity

Originally posted by Praxus1874

 And now this becomes a speculation war on both sides, like every other thread.  I really wish that Bioware would release something new on this game so that we could put some of these discussions to rest, or at least have something better to discuss while we wait for the game to come out.

Prax  

I don't see that happening anytime soon.. Bioware is running the hype engines at 110%.. The more hype, the more guessing, the more people are hooked and willing to BUY the game as release..  It's a marketing strategy plain and simple..  Bioware has no intention to damage their lil 8.5 hype rating with accurate game footage and facts before the game goes live.. Which as far as we're all concern won't be until 2010 IF we're lucky..  What pisses me off.. I hate when people, mags or conventions like E3 nominate games for "game of the year" when they have no intention of being released that year.. and further on that is that no games should ever be nominated or publisized without providing public details..

When was the last time "(anything) of the year" was ever awarded BEFORE it's proven?   Quarterback of the year?  Albumn of the Year?  Driver of the year? Movie of the year?  etc etc.. the list just keeps on going.. However in the cyber gaming world all normal rules are tossed out the door.. LETS wait and demand more intel and wait till games actually go LIVE before giving them any awards..