I suspect that console gaming will murder MMO if they continue down this road.  OP, you are absolutely correct.  And in a FPS, console will always dominate!

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Indeed. Interesting post.

But let me quote Paul Barnett , at this year E3.

This is what he said to question about where he sees MMO's heading in next years:

"We are not going to see MMOs as we know them today. Instead it will just be games with multiplayer connectivity.
in fact term MMO will become thing of the past."

 

He is on to something.

 

Most of upcomming MMOs are in fact this.

RPG games, or Shooters. Where developers said:

"We know MMO games sell more , and earn more. Let just create internet server structure in our games!"

 

Basically , they are Multiplayer Enabled games - not Massively Multiplayer games

 

 

And I am just waiting for SWTOR to be a final example of this trend. And flagbearer of this sad trend

 

Anyone that quotes Paul Barnett (an utter fool and idiot) is just losing credibility for anything else they type. That guy knows nothing about games and there is a reason why WAR has been on a constant downslide from the moment it was released.

You'll get no argument from me about what you stated about PB. The issue, as I see it, is that all the key players in these bigger name companies making MMOs think pretty much on exactly the same lines. It's evident in the types of MMOs being released. That and shareholders are the driving force behind development, not polish and out of the box thinking. There've been a scribble or two here outside of the box, but only enough to entice the blinded by hope crowd into thinking a new title is truly something new and different. The indy company...a few of them had designs on making a triangle or circle, but they don't have the money the box companies do. Thus, production value is such that it drives people away.

Vicious, vicious seemingly never-ending cycle we are in.

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by MindTrigger

The problem with your theory is:

1) There is a constantly growing number of people who are sick and tired of game play as defined by the Theme Park design of today's games.  There are new people on this board daily who came from WoW, are sick of WoW, and are looking for something new or more challenging. 

...then when asked if they actually accomplished anything difficult in the game, they say they soloed to 70 and expected it to be hard when it was never designed to be, ignored every dungeon, never bothered trying to rank high in the arenas, and never did any of the difficult acheivements.  I'm not saying ALL people, but the common excuse to WOW being easy is because these people played the easy way.  They avoided everything difficult because it wasn't rammed down their throat.  As if they'll every be happy with anything;)

These same people will just complain about the next MMO, and the next and the next.  Darkfall is hard and tedious, everything peopel "loved", hehe.  You don't see millions knowcking down those doors.  Millions weren't knocking down SWG's doors either.  They didn't care for Pirates, Dark&Light, Ryzome or Eve(300k+ unique account my foot)  Almost everyone playing the game is 2 boxing by now.  Thats where all the new subs are coming from.

Theres always a market for sandboxes but its no bigger than it ever was.

I'd wonder if it had the production value and funding that all these themepark games get if it wouldn't be experiencing a different fate. Not one of the games in that paragraph that you list was done by a AAA, big name company. SWG doesn't count as SOE has proven they can run any effort into the ground. Would be interesting to see what a top-line company could do.

Few good point here so far:

1. Releasing MMO with sameish game mechanic as WOW will always fail. Since once player realise its all same he will return to WOW that is more polished and has more content and bigger community.

This was proven many times so far.

2. Sandbox gaming got hijacked by hardcore PVP game design philosophy. And poorly developed titles.

Simply there is not even a case to prove sandbox gaming would be popular. Last such AAA title was SWG that never had a chance to grow. And on other side there is example of most hardcore PVP game EVE. And such games can not appeal to mainstream. And than you have games like Darkfall that are plainly just under developed.

I never had an idea why Darkfall was supposed to be a good idea in the first place ... no mater how well it would have been developed.

The last thing I heard about it was people running around naked in order to not get robbed in PvP. Well, I guess that makes sense if gear doesnt matter anyway ?

But thats certainly not a game I am eager to play.

Pre-Tram UO, especially in the beginning w/o guildstones, was literally hands down the best mmo design ever. Mmorpgs if they are even going to compete with UO would definately be post-tram, the carebare land of crappy rule systems and the beginning of the end for a true moneys worth experience.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Sandboxes (a.k.a Virtual World Simulations) started to fall out of favour 10 years ago when EQ launched.

The majority wants a game to play, not a new world to live in.

With the return of the story-driven immersive gameplay promised by TOR, I'm very happy with the direction the genre is heading in. I understand that not everyone feels the same, and that opinions don't get changed on forum posts but meh; your negative viewpoint demanded a positive rebuttal.

My GOD you are naive. How many MMO's have promised to do this or that and have actually delivered? The most you'll get from TOR is some pretty cutscenes with dialogue trees. The same cutscenes and dialogue trees that EVERY OTHER PLAYER will see. 

Amen, OP. Amen.

Originally posted by leshtricity

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Sandboxes (a.k.a Virtual World Simulations) started to fall out of favour 10 years ago when EQ launched.

The majority wants a game to play, not a new world to live in.

With the return of the story-driven immersive gameplay promised by TOR, I'm very happy with the direction the genre is heading in. I understand that not everyone feels the same, and that opinions don't get changed on forum posts but meh; your negative viewpoint demanded a positive rebuttal.

My GOD you are naive. How many MMO's have promised to do this or that and have actually delivered? The most you'll get from TOR is some pretty cutscenes with dialogue trees. The same cutscenes and dialogue trees that EVERY OTHER PLAYER will see. 

Hmm. How many MMOs have promised a properly written story-driven progression? Well, none have.

If there's one thing that Bioware can do properly, it's tell a story. A quote from a recent interview:

James Ohlen: To give you an example, in your standard MMO you have a single person doing the quests. He writes it up, he scripts it, he places it in the world. It’s one guy.

But with us, we have a writing team, we have scripters who script it, we have designers who are very good at doing all the cinematic angles and all the animations… so we basically have three times the size of the team for implementing a quest.

And yes, the quests are a lot more intensive than in other games.

That ain't pie in the sky as far as I'm concerned; Bioware is one of the few delveopers who I trust to do what they say they are going to do. They've a tremendous track record with turning out polished and high-quality story driven RPGs.

As for other players getting the same questlines, I've no problem with that. They're free to make their own choices (the same as mine or different) and I don't play MMOs to feel like a unique snowflake.

Sounds like a battle between FFXIV and TOR then. Pick your sides!

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by leshtricity

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Sandboxes (a.k.a Virtual World Simulations) started to fall out of favour 10 years ago when EQ launched.

The majority wants a game to play, not a new world to live in.

With the return of the story-driven immersive gameplay promised by TOR, I'm very happy with the direction the genre is heading in. I understand that not everyone feels the same, and that opinions don't get changed on forum posts but meh; your negative viewpoint demanded a positive rebuttal.

My GOD you are naive. How many MMO's have promised to do this or that and have actually delivered? The most you'll get from TOR is some pretty cutscenes with dialogue trees. The same cutscenes and dialogue trees that EVERY OTHER PLAYER will see. 

Hmm. How many MMOs have promised a properly written story-driven progression? Well, none have.

If there's one thing that Bioware can do properly, it's tell a story. A quote from a recent interview:

James Ohlen: To give you an example, in your standard MMO you have a single person doing the quests. He writes it up, he scripts it, he places it in the world. It’s one guy.

But with us, we have a writing team, we have scripters who script it, we have designers who are very good at doing all the cinematic angles and all the animations… so we basically have three times the size of the team for implementing a quest.

And yes, the quests are a lot more intensive than in other games.

That ain't pie in the sky as far as I'm concerned; Bioware is one of the few delveopers who I trust to do what they say they are going to do. They've a tremendous track record with turning out polished and high-quality story driven RPGs.

As for other players getting the same questlines, I've no problem with that. They're free to make their own choices (the same as mine or different) and I don't play MMOs to feel like a unique snowflake.

Sounds good. And I am sure Bioware will do a stellar job

And thats not he point

Point is that SWTOR is not MMORPG

Its nothing more but a good singleplayer RPG , with multiplayer feature

Originally posted by Lobotomist 

Sounds good. And I am sure Bioware will do a stellar job

And thats not he point

Point is that SWTOR is not MMORPG

Its nothing more but a good singleplayer RPG , with multiplayer feature

Much as I hate reposting something, I literaly just replied to this critique in the SWTOR forums and I doubt MMORPG.COM will begrudge me plagiarising my own post just this once:

I really find this whole "It's not going to be an MMO!" argument funny.

Maybe I just have a completely different view of how the game is going to turn out than some of you, but I'm imagining that TOR will be like a traditional themepark MMO like WoW* but with the added benefit that the quests from level 1 to end-game follow a story arc that is unique to your class and can be influenced by your choices.

That's gotta be better than traditional questlines that amount to little more than "kill 10 wolves, ok now kill the boss wolf, ok now deliver the boss wolfs fur to a tanner, ok choose an item reward"

I'm at a loss as to how anyone can see what TOR is proposing to do as a bad thing.

*I used WoW as an example on the basis that it's the most well-known themepark MMO; if the mere glimpse of those three letters enrages you to the point where you can't respond coherently to this post without devolving into a mass of gibbering bilespewing hatred, then mentally substitute it for EQ, LOTRO, AoC or any other themepark MMO that you find less offensive.

TOR is going to have everything that other themepark MMOs has. There will be grouping, raiding, there will be PvP, there will be crafting and an economy, the story arcs aren't single-player, (though they can be done solo if one chooses) and it will be a persistant world populated by other players who are scurrying around doing the aforementioned things.

It is, in every sense, going to be an MMO.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Sounds like a battle between FFXIV and TOR then. Pick your sides!

I'm planning on playing both! .. I quite like the Final Fantasy universe, but FFXI was way too into the forced grouping for my liking, and from what I'm reading, FFXIV is planning on changing that.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

I can understand what you try to say, but here is a simple thought:

This sounds perhaps odd ... but the endgame of Wow - at least now -  is far less "themepark" than most would believe. I mean there IS a lot of freedom of how you play the end game of it. Take for example the non raiding public (which is HUGE), how do you think they play Wow these days...

I doubt they follow strict lines. Most of the people that play Wow these days gather mounts, titles, achievements.

That was a lot of words to convey a simple thought.

I've snipped it down to what I believe the crux of the matter is; you misunderstand the concept of themeparks.

WoW is still a themepark at endgame; all of the content is scripted, all the dialogue is prewritten and all the encounter mechanics are predetermined; that's the essence of themepark, that the player can only go along with the things that the developer has put into the game and is unable to influence/create content himself.

It's still a themepark, you just get to pick which ride you want to go on. That ain't sandbox.

Originally posted by Zorndorf 

Please read the WHOLE post instead cut and paste 3 lines.

If you would look at the complete post it also says : offer the 10.000 different possible adventures to the people and let them choose the adventures they want to have without giving them strict to follow lines or "scripts". Use the world only as a decoration and nothing more. The avatars create their own adventures within a WELL dressed framework that players simply not can make.

I did read the whole thing; but dismissed the suggestion as untenable wishful-thinking.

There's only two ways that a developer could offer that many choices to the player; either remove meaningful character progression, or scale the content to match the players level of progression.

The former would cut the RPG out of the MMORPG and the latter would destroy any semblance of an open-world and lead to heavy instancing/phasing being put into place to prevent a level 1 character from blundering into an encounter that is scaled to a level 80 character.

Zorndorf is offering an alternative.

I think there are others, all it takes is for game developers to seek them.

 See, you know the problem? All those bright ideas will never be implemented. Why? They take risk. Huge monetary risk. Risk companies wouldn't like to take. Most upcoming games are either franchise-based or WoWites with a unique feature or two. And creativity simply dies.

Seriously? Until WoW withers away or leaves an opening big enough, we won't see a game truly innovative in terms of rich, challenging yet available to the casuals experience. It just won't be done, since it's easier to either cah-in or emulate ab existing popular model. Why do you think 99% of modern FPSes are apeing Halo and CoD, instead of, say, Portal? 

Originally posted by LynxJSA

The alternative is to give the players the tools to create their own story. This can best be seen in games like UO and EVE Online, where no two characters will have the same tale to tell - quite the opposite of games like WOW where every player follows the same steps, does the same exact quests and moves along the same path in the same order as every other character of his race. It's really hard to combine an engaging and entertaining amusement park with personal evolving story without the story starting to feel static or the content seem separated (instances).

 

This is right on the money and what sets apart player driven content in true Sandbox MMO's like Eve and UO, from linear developer driven content in WOW.

You need to give the players the tools to create their own content, experiences and adventures. This makes the game become almost "organic" in the way it cannot be predicted even by the developers and far more immersive and rewarding for the players. Eve got this right and so did UO.  This is the very essence of what an MMO is and should be (call me a purist). And I personally do not class WOW as an MMORPG, nor Warhammer nor AOC. They have their own genre more akin to simply a multiplayer RPG.

Dont get me wrong, theres a place for linear multiplayer RPG's like WOW, as is evident by it's subscribers, but MMORPG gaming has pretty much laid stagnant since Eve's release and the genre needs fresh blood.

Unfortunately for me, I struggle with the tedium of Eve's gameplay. UO was bang on the mark and i'm still waiting for something to better it in it's prime. But yes, player driven content is the KEY, mark my words....

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Interesting

Zorndorf is offering an alternative.

I think there are others, all it takes is for game developers to seek them.

 

 

 

Well apparently Blizzard changes Wow faster than I could type my above posts about leveling and experience.

Today Blizzard annouced that you can just STOP getting experience and stop leveling whenever you want  - both in PVE and PVP.

The measure was taken together with the experience leveling option solely through PvP.

Talking of changes: we're seeing them develop right under our noses now !

Read on the official site (today) : http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/underdev/3p2/battleground-qna.html

It makes sense.

Right at this moment I am working on my third character to get the Justicar titile and I was fed up with running the Raids for weapons once more to become even competitive in PVP at level 80.

So I already started the achievements up early on. Now at lvl 78/79 I can just stop the leveling proces completely for 10(!) gold and do my achievement adventures which gives me that nice fat PvP title I long for with all my characters without joining the "rat race" at 80  - and ... with my preferred playing style PvP. I even get the BG gear with buying crafted gear for level 78 (and the rest from reputations of factions).

The reputation rises but the experience doesn't.

How about an exellent example of what I wrote above (I think I deserved a medal for that ) :)))

OK It is still embryo, but it supports the arguments of playing without levels (and certainly 80 (sic) levels).

If even Wow begins to introduce it: Bye bye story telling games.

----> You create your own stories in ... old Wow at level 60 it you want, doing ALL the reputations you want without EVER crossing the line to 61. (think about it).

 

Oh wow, they're implementing the feature I saw in EQII three years ago.

Blizzard is sure on the bleeding edge of gaming!

Back in 60's-80's u were walking out in the strrets and ppl u didnt even know were saying goodmorning. You were sleeping in your house without having to lock your doors. Back there in footbal ,players were playing and figting for their shirts and the team , now its stricktly proffesional they play just for the money, exceptions there are but its just the esceptions.Freedom is another issue that is threaten in our days by the universalism that is being provided by our goverments trying to control us more and mroe and more.We have less freedom day by day . 

Ppl now are more hostile, more aggresive and rude(im not an exception either). What i think devs like blizard and others did is they just made social research ,sitted down and thought..What does the community is like? ok we ll give them this to satisfy their needs and ego.

Ultima for me pictures freedom in choises freedom in every way that matters in a game or a virtual world for soem others and wow (and many other games that nowdays monopolise the mmorpg market is well mannered self willingly temptation that pictures a fine prison where u loose freedom in choises and creation.

For me nowdays mmorpg market pictures signs of our society.

And the dying UO breed of players is being replaced by these rude/aggresive anti-social kids that grown up in a wow prison ,never tasted of freedom that UO gave.

as william wallace yelled...

FREEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDOMMM