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Originally posted by zymurgeist
Something new? COUCH.. Many game reviews have already said this is nothing more then KoTOR 3 with an internet twist.. ONE reviewer that has actually played a demo of SWTOR said the graphics and UI is directly from "Mass Effect"... COUGH.. There is nothing new here by Bioware.. It's just KoTOR relabed..
It's a fully voiced game ( no offence, but I could give a rats ass if it's voiced or not) with individual story arcs ( EXACTLY the problem.. IF Bioware holds true to this , this means that so many players will be time line split from each other.. UNLESS Bioware has no intent to do this because it restricts grouping.. In that case all thier hype about individual story arcs is just bullshit) the outcome of which is affected by your decisions. While that's nothing new for single player games it is unique for a MMO. ( NOT unique, this was done by Blizzard in WoW's 2 expansion zones.. It's called phasing, which in my opinion SUCKS.. Phasing IMO if very anti mmo friendly) The difference in the UI from Mass effect is more than one player may contribute to the conversation. That also is as far as I know unique. THe differences may be subtle but they're real. (It doesn't matter if one person or many talk to the NPC.. that NPC is programed to a predetermined choice of endings.. PERIOD.... Example is that a group is conversing and the group ends up "bribing" the npc.. Does it really matter? That NPC was preprogramed to be a) killed, b) bribed or c) left alone.. ) Furthermore, how can group members converse to the NPC IF they chose a different story arc? hmmm is that MMO'ish?
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6/24/09 7:10:49 AM#122
Even if it turns out to be as some of you are saying, a story driven online rpg I can play with my friends with constant development and regularly expanded content... hell sounds good to me. I'd certainly pay a monthly fee for an rpg that never ends. I've done what most of you regard as the "mmo" circuit for years now. I'm not really interested in more of the same. I won't debate what the final product WILL be because it's too early to know, but I will say the only thing I haven't liked about what's been released so far is that they intend to cater to traditional roles to some degree or another. I'd love to see them go a different way. I understand some of you dislike what you speculate will be the finished product, but bear in mind, just because you don't agree with the direction doesn't mean the game will be junk. For example, I'm totally not a fan of Eve nor Wow, yet they are both very successful games. I expect however the game turns out, at release it will be a relatively smooth running and engaging piece of work. That's what Bioware has provided in the past, all the way back when some of them were Black Isle. I'll respectfully reserve judgement on if the eventual product until its in my paws, but until then, as I've said before, I'm highly optimistic. |
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6/24/09 7:12:56 AM#123
Phasing is actually a very strong MMORPG element. Unfortunately, I doubt other developers have the resources to try and mimic it in their MMORPGs. It is an exceptional story telling too for certain. |
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6/24/09 7:16:10 AM#124
Do you "think" the crew from Bioware/Lucasarts are stupid ? They will be trying to put something new on the stagnant MMO market, and here people are arguing if this game really is worthy the MMORPG title or not. Will the game be diffrent ? ....Yes hopefully |
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6/24/09 7:26:34 AM#125
I am interested to know why some of you upset by the story elements and player driven choices seem to be fine with traditional quest mechanics yet they are essentially the same thing as what Bioware is likely to do. How many times have you killed a specific boss, that by all accounts should already be dead from a prior engagement? Really, are you upset about continuity or is the fear that you'll somehow be unable to tackle content with your friends due to different positions in a story arc? If it's the latter, I'm not sure why you'd assume Bioware will handle that aspect in such a way that will limit your experience. The most obvious approach, if there is any limitation at all, would be to base accessable content upon the group leader's position in the story arc. Again, seems a lot of angst over speculation. |
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6/24/09 11:29:23 AM#126
I suspect bioware and EA have an idea how to handle the immersion factor for paradoxes with grouping. Storyboards have directions. I am not a highly paid MMO designer, writer or computer programmer, but I would handle the original paradox (how does a game handle the immersion factor if two or more players of the same party are participating in a storyline which they chose differently) is this: Remove the paradox. For example. five Sith are participating in my story. I let the Captain live, two others did also. The other three didn't. The game code has flagged me and the other who choose life (Choose LIFE ! :P) and my mission continues. The instance provides a cutscene for me and the lifers with one story, perhaps the captain meets me in an alley for further instructions and moves on or is injured or is (INSERT REMOVE CAPTAIN NPC SITUATION HERE). The point is the end result is that the Captains role in this part of the story is gone. This satisfies the players who killed the Captain earlier because he is dead. The Captain killer players are along for the ride because of their own reason. My mission is from the captain but he may have been eliminated from my story or left my story. As far as the vengence from the family scenario. Again, If the roles were reversed and I join a Captain Slayers story. If the story is to evade revenge, then I am participating ina survival instance. I may be told by the game I need to meet up with a contact from the Sith empire. The Captain slayer may also need to meet with his contact, but he knows he must deal with assasins on the way/ If the story dialogue involves me, the game may simply state: This does not involve you! Stand aside or die. Or if they want you to choose, say something like: "Captain send his regards. What say you?" a) Play dumb b) I have no issue with the Captain allies c) I knew the captain and he spoke nothing of you. Why should I trust you? Again, my point here is the storyline can account for group dynamics because the outcomes are already determined. The story advances, the characters may change, but the story can still advance. |
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6/24/09 12:04:35 PM#127
Originally posted by Lobotomist
(OT) Okay, I'm almost 99% sure that there will be a subscription in this game, but you can't be sure. I have heard rumors that this game COULD be a game without a subscription... Rumors are rumors tho. (End of OT)
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singsofdeath
Novice Member
Joined: 1/28/06
"You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity." |
6/24/09 12:16:59 PM#128
Originally posted by Rydeson
It's a fully voiced game ( no offence, but I could give a rats ass if it's voiced or not) with individual story arcs ( EXACTLY the problem.. IF Bioware holds true to this , this means that so many players will be time line split from each other.. UNLESS Bioware has no intent to do this because it restricts grouping.. In that case all thier hype about individual story arcs is just bullshit) the outcome of which is affected by your decisions. While that's nothing new for single player games it is unique for a MMO. ( NOT unique, this was done by Blizzard in WoW's 2 expansion zones.. It's called phasing, which in my opinion SUCKS.. Phasing IMO if very anti mmo friendly) The difference in the UI from Mass effect is more than one player may contribute to the conversation. That also is as far as I know unique. THe differences may be subtle but they're real. (It doesn't matter if one person or many talk to the NPC.. that NPC is programed to a predetermined choice of endings.. PERIOD.... Example is that a group is conversing and the group ends up "bribing" the npc.. Does it really matter? That NPC was preprogramed to be a) killed, b) bribed or c) left alone.. ) Furthermore, how can group members converse to the NPC IF they chose a different story arc? hmmm is that MMO'ish?
You know...I really couldn't care less about your attitude towards the game. It's your prerogative to not like the concept. But you have pushed a few buttons here, namely, spreading of false information to back your arguments.
Let's look at this more closely, shall we?
1) UI and Graphics from Mass Effect. Do I even have to comment on this? I mean....seriously? Give me the link to your supposed journalist source. I have a feeling I know what you are referring to, but if so, you took it completely out of context - AND- warped it even further to suit your needs. The only interview comment comparing Mass Effect to TOR was a comment where they compared the Dialogue Wheel. If you have other sources that actually compare the full UI and the graphics, please, share them.
2) Unique Storylines with Multiple Endings depending on your choices over the course of the story = Phasing in WoW. Are you being intentionally clueless? I mean...seriously? Do you want anyone to take you seriously? Show me -one- quest/storyline in WoW with multiple endings which depend on your actions and decisions within the story/quest arc and I will apologize to you publicly.
For clarification: Phasing allows players on different stages of the -SAME- questline to see areas of the game differently (for example, someone who has completed a quest would see a certain building already rebuilt while the one who has not completed the quest would still see it in construction). This is a mechanic that supposedly will be used by BioWare in the game but has nada, zip, nothing to do with branching story-arcs in which your decisions actually take you down different paths to a different ending.
3) You do not care for voice-overs. Fine again. That is your prerogative, but don't just brush it aside like it is nothing. Not caring for it is all nice and fine, but to just dismiss it as unimportant is, again, intentionally ignorant. It -is- something that has not been done before and that's the end of it. You liking it or not has no impact on that.
--------------- In conclusion. Many people see your point, you know. That you do not like story-based MMO's. That you think having branching questlines and so on will detract from the MMO-feel. I can see that argument, I really can. I am pretty sure that the leveling process of the game will play a lot less like a traditional MMO. The MMO part will (hopefully) begin when you reach the endgame, where PvP/PvE and social stuff will (again, hopefully) keep you occupied in case you do not wish to go through another story.
But that's speculation, as I cannot prove that. I understand your concerns and share them to a degree, namely, me being concerned that the end-game will only be implemented half-heartedly, but I will wait and see.
But you should really restrict your arguments to those that are actually real and not make up random things on the fly. That just weakens your position tremendously. |
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Briansho
Apprentice Member
Joined: 3/05/06
Functionless Art is Simply Tolerated Vandalism...We Are The Vandals. |
6/24/09 12:50:38 PM#129
Originally posted by takayi
(OT) Okay, I'm almost 99% sure that there will be a subscription in this game, but you can't be sure. I have heard rumors that this game COULD be a game without a subscription... Rumors are rumors tho. (End of OT)
Not to be starting anything but the feeling I get from watching the movies and reading info is this give off a heavy Guild Wars feeling. Pay for the game, then pay for expansion packs but no monthly fee. Unless they go item shop point purchase with stuff. Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL! |
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6/25/09 10:33:39 AM#130
Originally posted by singsofdeath
It's a fully voiced game ( no offence, but I could give a rats ass if it's voiced or not) with individual story arcs ( EXACTLY the problem.. IF Bioware holds true to this , this means that so many players will be time line split from each other.. UNLESS Bioware has no intent to do this because it restricts grouping.. In that case all thier hype about individual story arcs is just bullshit) the outcome of which is affected by your decisions. While that's nothing new for single player games it is unique for a MMO. ( NOT unique, this was done by Blizzard in WoW's 2 expansion zones.. It's called phasing, which in my opinion SUCKS.. Phasing IMO if very anti mmo friendly) The difference in the UI from Mass effect is more than one player may contribute to the conversation. That also is as far as I know unique. THe differences may be subtle but they're real. (It doesn't matter if one person or many talk to the NPC.. that NPC is programed to a predetermined choice of endings.. PERIOD.... Example is that a group is conversing and the group ends up "bribing" the npc.. Does it really matter? That NPC was preprogramed to be a) killed, b) bribed or c) left alone.. ) Furthermore, how can group members converse to the NPC IF they chose a different story arc? hmmm is that MMO'ish?
You know...I really couldn't care less about your attitude towards the game. It's your prerogative to not like the concept. But you have pushed a few buttons here, namely, spreading of false information to back your arguments.
Let's look at this more closely, shall we?
1) UI and Graphics from Mass Effect. Do I even have to comment on this? I mean....seriously? Give me the link to your supposed journalist source. I have a feeling I know what you are referring to, but if so, you took it completely out of context - AND- warped it even further to suit your needs. The only interview comment comparing Mass Effect to TOR was a comment where they compared the Dialogue Wheel. If you have other sources that actually compare the full UI and the graphics, please, share them.
2) Unique Storylines with Multiple Endings depending on your choices over the course of the story = Phasing in WoW. Are you being intentionally clueless? I mean...seriously? Do you want anyone to take you seriously? Show me -one- quest/storyline in WoW with multiple endings which depend on your actions and decisions within the story/quest arc and I will apologize to you publicly.
For clarification: Phasing allows players on different stages of the -SAME- questline to see areas of the game differently (for example, someone who has completed a quest would see a certain building already rebuilt while the one who has not completed the quest would still see it in construction). This is a mechanic that supposedly will be used by BioWare in the game but has nada, zip, nothing to do with branching story-arcs in which your decisions actually take you down different paths to a different ending.
3) You do not care for voice-overs. Fine again. That is your prerogative, but don't just brush it aside like it is nothing. Not caring for it is all nice and fine, but to just dismiss it as unimportant is, again, intentionally ignorant. It -is- something that has not been done before and that's the end of it. You liking it or not has no impact on that.
--------------- In conclusion. Many people see your point, you know. That you do not like story-based MMO's. That you think having branching questlines and so on will detract from the MMO-feel. I can see that argument, I really can. I am pretty sure that the leveling process of the game will play a lot less like a traditional MMO. The MMO part will (hopefully) begin when you reach the endgame, where PvP/PvE and social stuff will (again, hopefully) keep you occupied in case you do not wish to go through another story.
But that's speculation, as I cannot prove that. I understand your concerns and share them to a degree, namely, me being concerned that the end-game will only be implemented half-heartedly, but I will wait and see.
But you should really restrict your arguments to those that are actually real and not make up random things on the fly. That just weakens your position tremendously. Well said singsofdeath. Rydeson the only thing that makes sense in your entire rant is the word "bullshit". Every thing else is pretty much irrelevant at this point because we do not know period. |
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Originally posted by Briansho
Not to be starting anything but the feeling I get from watching the movies and reading info is this give off a heavy Guild Wars feeling. Pay for the game, then pay for expansion packs but no monthly fee. Unless they go item shop point purchase with stuff. You have a good point.. This could very well be KOTOR meets Guild Wars.. You rent KoTOR 3 (aka SWTOR) monthly for the story content, then end game is nothing but Guild Wars in space.. The thing is.. GW doesn't charge a monthly fee.. OH.. one other thing.. I hear alot of ranting and raving about "voice" over quest.. Am I missing something here?? I've listened to many of audio books and read them as well.. I truely don't see the difference other then one is hands free.. LOL I'm calling my library today and demand they get rid of all "text" books but audio is so much superior... lmaooo The point I'm making is that there is no difference what so ever between text and audio quest.. A quest is a quest is a quest.. However if you like being brainwashed by devs to believe audio is so much superior.. Watch out for the Kool-Aid !! |
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catlana
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/18/08
Playing ToR |
6/25/09 1:28:52 PM#132
Originally posted by Rydeson
Not to be starting anything but the feeling I get from watching the movies and reading info is this give off a heavy Guild Wars feeling. Pay for the game, then pay for expansion packs but no monthly fee. Unless they go item shop point purchase with stuff. You have a good point.. This could very well be KOTOR meets Guild Wars.. You rent KoTOR 3 (aka SWTOR) monthly for the story content, then end game is nothing but Guild Wars in space.. The thing is.. GW doesn't charge a monthly fee.. OH.. one other thing.. I hear alot of ranting and raving about "voice" over quest.. Am I missing something here?? I've listened to many of audio books and read them as well.. I truely don't see the difference other then one is hands free.. LOL I'm calling my library today and demand they get rid of all "text" books but audio is so much superior... lmaooo The point I'm making is that there is no difference what so ever between text and audio quest.. A quest is a quest is a quest.. However if you like being brainwashed by devs to believe audio is so much superior.. Watch out for the Kool-Aid !!
Voice adds a immersive element to a game. Reading text reminds you that this is a fake / false experience. Try watching a movie with only using sub titles verus watching the same movie with voices. The difference is quite a bit actually. Why do you think foreign movies do so poorly at the box office? Most people simply do not enjoy reading as part of a immersive experience. |
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6/25/09 1:31:51 PM#133
Originally posted by catlana You have a good point.. This could very well be KOTOR meets Guild Wars.. You rent KoTOR 3 (aka SWTOR) monthly for the story content, then end game is nothing but Guild Wars in space.. The thing is.. GW doesn't charge a monthly fee.. OH.. one other thing.. I hear alot of ranting and raving about "voice" over quest.. Am I missing something here?? I've listened to many of audio books and read them as well.. I truely don't see the difference other then one is hands free.. LOL I'm calling my library today and demand they get rid of all "text" books but audio is so much superior... lmaooo The point I'm making is that there is no difference what so ever between text and audio quest.. A quest is a quest is a quest.. However if you like being brainwashed by devs to believe audio is so much superior.. Watch out for the Kool-Aid !!
Voice adds a immersive element to a game. Reading text reminds you that this is a fake / false experience. Try watching a movie with only using sub titles verus watching the same movie with voices. The difference is quite a bit actually. Why do you think foreign movies do so poorly at the box office? Most people simply do not enjoy reading as part of a immersive experience.
I think the greater immersion comes from being forced to listen to all that the character has to say. It has just become a horrible habit to skip through quest dialogs, skimming just enough to find out who/what I have to kill/do next. In away it will force players to slow down and enjoy the gameplay, taking away the rush to level that sometimes becomes the dominant factor in our gameplay. |
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6/26/09 7:56:23 AM#134
That might be somewhat true in the US and in countries where they dub most of the movies and TV-programs. It is clearly a cultural issue. It is not an issue in countries where they use original language and subtitles, like mine. However, our box office hits seem to be mostly American films as well and it got very little to do with the language barrier. So I would say that your analogy does not really hold water that well albeit it might be ONE of the reasons in your country and in few others. Production values, celebrities and marketing... "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in." |
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So movies and shows with subtitles are "sub-standard"?.. I'll remember that the next time I'm watching a movie with someone who is hearing impaired.. That my immersion in the movie is far superior then theirs.. I enjoy books much more then movies.. I have yet to ever view a movie that was as good as the book.. IMO I believe most everyone would agree with me that actually reads.. As for the immersion.. How entertaining do you think it will be to be FORCED to view and listen to the same audio clip over and over without the option to say, "SKIP IT"? hmmmm Any Idea? PS.. I play PS3 frequently, such as Tiger Woods 10 and looking forward to NCAA Football 10 in July.. These games as well as dozens of others allow online interaction, but they are NOT called or discribed as MMO's.. There is a reason.. From what info I see so far by Bioware shows TOR to be nothing more then these types of games.. To guise a game as a MMO just to justify a monthly subscription is just greed and misleading |
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6/26/09 9:01:41 AM#136
Originally posted by madeux
I think the greater immersion comes from being forced to listen to all that the character has to say. It has just become a horrible habit to skip through quest dialogs, skimming just enough to find out who/what I have to kill/do next. In away it will force players to slow down and enjoy the gameplay, taking away the rush to level that sometimes becomes the dominant factor in our gameplay.
I am not sure whether this is a good thing or not. Personally, I prefer to read dialogue and skip spoken scripts. This is partly because I find the imagination provides a richer version of what a character's voice 'should' sound like than the actor providing that voice. Equally, voice-acting does 'slow' the action down. Now, some might enjoy that but most players, I suspect, prefer to set their own pace for the game rather than have the game's various latencies - which can take the form of loading screens, instances, grouping requirements, and now voice acting - do it for them. ToR is going to be a big gamble for Bioware. |
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6/26/09 9:07:12 AM#137
People skip reading text in quests in MMOs because they just dont care for the details, and people will still continue to do so in ToR even with voiceovers. The only quests in MMO i ever pay attention to are the Main Story quests, the filler quests are always garbage. Im sure ToR will be no different. Personally i think adding voiceovers to story missions and cutscenes is enough, but adding voiceovers to EVERY mission is more of a cosmetic thing and IMO just a waste of time. |
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Yauchy
Novice Member
Joined: 11/06/07
"The keenist sorrow is that we are the sole cause of our adversities" ~Sophicles |
6/26/09 9:12:00 AM#138
Originally posted by Serulith Could of been more eloquently worded, but I have the same sentiments. Its too much extra dev time that could be used for more valuable game elements :/ for some its a sad truth, but its a truth nonetheless....though if anyone can try to hack at it, EA has the resources. In the end its Star Wars, even burned by SWG ... I think I'm going to buy it for a try, lol. |
Originally posted by Serulith
Agreed ATTENTION BIOWARE.. Blizzard already does voice over cut scenes.. SHIT.. my first voice over was in the Deadmines YEARS ago.. Granted it's great and fun if used appropriately.. I loved the cut scenes in Dragonblight when doing the quest for the battle of Undercity.. However, if I had to deal with that the entire game with every "average" quest mission.. I'd go nuts.. I mean really, if TOR is going to have voice overs on everything, I hope they offer a "turn off" feature or "skip" feature.. |
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6/26/09 10:08:03 AM#140
I believe you can skip them like in any other Bioware game, as far as I remember. "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in." |
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