Everyone seems like there on the breaking point for information these days. I've been reading these threads constantly for the last couple of days (And having a little chuckle myself as I go through some peoples comments ) it just has to show that there has been so many arguments of what wont be or what if... and that, but I know you've seen it all already. The people getting so worked up about it is what makes it all that more interesting cause it leads to my main point. Be you one of the 3 main groups and no I'm not including the die hard fans and the so called trolls. (Which I'm offended by since my WOW character was one... just kidding) your all helping the cause .

Oh... the groups let me get started on that one... this might be fun afterall. (Don't worry I wont bash you to much)  I mean the ones who cling to the odd theory that there doing nothing over there but sitting around drinking coffee... cause the idea of the game failing since there hiding what they don't have and lying to the community (Witch makes no sense cause how are they lying when they havn't  even told you yet otherwise) would only work with that logic. If you know as much as the next guy, which is didily squat why post that they already failed (Yes I'm a hyprocrit get to know me better and you'll learn that ) The other group has to be the ones who makes up whatever floats there boat at the time... some of these things you'd think came to them in a dream or something. Lastly it has to be the group who dosent care (I'm also not talknig about the guy pulling a tantrum for having a storyline in a game... of all the things in the world OH NOES!!! ) and just comments to make other people look bad after they say some idiotic line and defending the game. (I kinda like these people) There the people who make the community look good and make a game have a chanche before they even tried it.  Hi-five to you guys.

  That was off topic but it had a point your all working up hype for this game and this is exactly what they want, They want people arguing over it. This leads to people wanting more information, and looking back for the first person with leaked news or updates. Ill try to explain there was a episode of South Park once where Cartman bought a amusement park jsut for himself, but he made a commerical advertising it than later saying you cant have it. This led to human nature kicking in making everyone suddenly crying to get in. The hype was made not for having an awesome product (Since no-one went when it was open) but not letting someone have a product. He slowly let people in to help pay for workers, sorta like with Bioware letting little by little out on end building hype like no other before. The amusement park went popular using this strategy. I think Biowares kinda on the same terms (It's Star wars, the tittle sells itself... having KOTOR on it only gains it more strength) dont you agree? Everyones wanting more arnt they... yet its not even close to release.

P.S Ill edit more in later, Other than that I've seen the movies but I enjoyed the games more... Including Republic Commando (I hope someone heard of it), KOTOR 1&2 and finnaly Battlefront. Id play more but I got an Xbox and 360.

 So this is a critique of posters on these forums?  I mean, are you actually suprised that people are posting opinions (opinions are varied from person to person...i.e. an opposing opinion is an opinion, not a flame)?

I will throw this out there though:  If you read the posts that aren't Pro-SWTOR, and you read them without disagreeing with them ahead of time, you will see that *most* are not whining that there is a story in the game.  They are more concerned about the fact that the game seems to be an essentially single player experience (I'm not talking about forced grouping/solo), where the MMO portion of the described genre is void.  Any other genre and this would be made fun of by forum-goers and critics alike.  Also, don't pretend like they haven't said anything about this game.  The only stuff they have yet to reveal are specific details (the rest of the classes, planets, etc.), but the game itself has been pretty much described thusfar.

I don't know why all of these critiques of the forum posters seem to act as though from a viewpoint on the outside (the outside looking in).  It is as if to purposefully place oneself outside of the sphere of judgment which has so carefully been crafted.

There's never a surprise since its the way it happens on all boards. A lot of people even actually like being in debates and end up being best friends with there main oppenent. It's wasn't my attention to sum up everyone on the boards and review them but rather get to the point that the fighting is helping the game in an odd case.  What better way to drag people into a board than having chaos it attracts people in the mass. The Darkfall forum is mainly popular because of that, I didnt hear of it beforehand. I dont mean entirly that there fighting over its bad in this case but rather over the lack of information. (Refering to the you cant have it aproach).

On a second note, I know they have released info - I've actually been waiting for KOTOR online since Ive played the game and when I heard of its release I've been fallowing it ever since. To the topic there not whinning... one of the most popular threads a guy called Bioware jackasses for having a storyline. Ill contradict myself there through I never claimed most people are whinners, after looking over my post I didnt even write that. I justtpointed out a few instances and cases were Iv'e seen it. I actually think most people have inner good, but when interests cross they put there anger out leaving *most* (I can use stars to ) to say non-decent things.

Im not on the outside, there is no need to be... by posting this I entered to be judged by the likes of you and others. Dont treat me like some horrific person who dosent know when you in fact said people state there opinions what do you expect.

 I apologize if I offended you with the last bit.  It just seems that every critique post (not so much yours - you are much more civil) the author seems to act as though on the outside of some arbitrary sphere of the damned.

Anyways, I do agree, buzz is buzz :)  I think the main reasons so many people are arguing / debating about this game are as follows:

1.)  It's Star Wars.  I don't think there is any greater IP for a video game out there (a lot would disagree, but it provides so much content / lore).  Since there probably won't be another Star Wars MMO for a long time, people want this one to be the perfect one (especially since many on these forums [the ones who post] are discontent with the current MMO offerings).

2.)  Whether anyone will admit it or not, this is the next big thing.  As such, it has implied effects upon the industry.  If this game is no good, but successful (just the name and maker are enough to make some big bucks initially), more games will come out just like it.  Unfortunately, they will probably not be successful like the first.  Look at WoW.  Most WoW-like games didn't garner nearly the same amount of players.  If this game lasts until you finish the story, it sets a precedent for other games to just label themselves as MMOs, barely add MMO functionality, and make a buck off of it.  I'm not accusing BioWare of purposefully trying to cheat consumers - I'm just saying that they don't seem to be considering the MMO portion of their game to be something at least worth a mention (they clearly don't care about it nearly as much as the story).

Hopefully I'm wrong - but this is a forum, and as such needs to be filled with discussion!

To the first part, ill let you know theres no offence taken - Theres hardly anything that bothers me really.

As my follow up to that for-

1) I know what you mean completely actually, I'm just glad its not one of those Korean made item shop games that spammed the market in the last couple of years litterly giving the Genre a bad name.  Even a couple of the big budget games were put out before they were ready and caused an uproar just to make a quick buck. ( I dont care if they wait an extra month or to to polish the game and get things tweaked) I wouldn't actually trust the Star Wars franchise with any other company other than Bioware, if they announce any pre-order bonuses I'd most likly go for it  - thats how much I trust them. With the sucess of there games and the effort they put into there stories there a go for me. I know there gunna release a good game, I'm just hoping they implimit a good multyplayer game so the community dosent get to frantic when most people solo the game and only meet up with people to trade and make a friend. Players having companions also adds to my fear that the game will be solo-able. With a franchise like Star-Wars they got a lot to live up to, hopefully they put out once again. Than again who knows mabie you wont be enough to go through the game alone, A player with 3 companions grouped with 4 other people could make large scale battles entertaining.

2) I've answered most of that but what I didn't ill make quick. As succesful as WOW was I didnt find it at all challenging ... sure it changed standards for all games... in my opinion worse titles are comming out now than before it was released. The game played itself litterly.... I made it to 50 with no difficulty and it played itself (I got board and left).  For Star Wars I want a harder difficulty right off the bat (optional of course), so I can struggle through a game - which I really like in a game. There was an old game Warlords Battlecry which had a mode called Ironman where if you died your hero died permantly but was a little stronger than normal characters and recieved experience at double the rate. It was optional but it added a new taste to diffculty instead of charging in full force you planned every move out adding skill to a game rather than button massing and hoping to get lucky. (Which would be interesting for smuggler since you rely on luck and surprise ) Other than that I liked Warhammer online more than WOW... population means nothing. Than again our servers will be full no matter what It's Star Wars... As much as I dont want to say it... it sells itself. This could be the redemption to behold on games not up to par... or set an example for years to come to market any good title (I really don't want the darkness to overwhelm us)... Im so scared for the thoguht of Mario RPG online (Pray to god no developers saw that line)

Originally posted by demalus

 So this is a critique of posters on these forums?  I mean, are you actually suprised that people are posting opinions (opinions are varied from person to person...i.e. an opposing opinion is an opinion, not a flame)?

I will throw this out there though:  If you read the posts that aren't Pro-SWTOR, and you read them without disagreeing with them ahead of time, you will see that *most* are not whining that there is a story in the game.  They are more concerned about the fact that the game seems to be an essentially single player experience (I'm not talking about forced grouping/solo), where the MMO portion of the described genre is void.  Any other genre and this would be made fun of by forum-goers and critics alike.  Also, don't pretend like they haven't said anything about this game.  The only stuff they have yet to reveal are specific details (the rest of the classes, planets, etc.), but the game itself has been pretty much described thusfar.

I don't know why all of these critiques of the forum posters seem to act as though from a viewpoint on the outside (the outside looking in).  It is as if to purposefully place oneself outside of the sphere of judgment which has so carefully been crafted.

Do yourself a favor. Remove the word "fact" from your vocabulary until you've learned how to use it properly.

Hint: it's not a synonym for "opinion" or "speculation".

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by demalus

 So this is a critique of posters on these forums?  I mean, are you actually suprised that people are posting opinions (opinions are varied from person to person...i.e. an opposing opinion is an opinion, not a flame)?

I will throw this out there though:  If you read the posts that aren't Pro-SWTOR, and you read them without disagreeing with them ahead of time, you will see that *most* are not whining that there is a story in the game.  They are more concerned about the fact that the game seems to be an essentially single player experience (I'm not talking about forced grouping/solo), where the MMO portion of the described genre is void.  Any other genre and this would be made fun of by forum-goers and critics alike.  Also, don't pretend like they haven't said anything about this game.  The only stuff they have yet to reveal are specific details (the rest of the classes, planets, etc.), but the game itself has been pretty much described thusfar.

I don't know why all of these critiques of the forum posters seem to act as though from a viewpoint on the outside (the outside looking in).  It is as if to purposefully place oneself outside of the sphere of judgment which has so carefully been crafted.

 

Do yourself a favor. Remove the word "fact" from your vocabulary until you've learned how to use it properly.

Hint: it's not a synonym for "opinion" or "speculation".

You obviously didn't comprehend my post, because it applied to what you just did.  Yes, I misspoke...whatever.  What I said is still unchanged even if I were to subsitute opinion for fact.  Then again, it is much easier to engage in grammer policing than it is to debate a point.

Originally posted by demalus

You obviously didn't comprehend my post, because it applied to what you just did.  Yes, I misspoke...whatever.  What I said is still unchanged even if I were to subsitute opinion for fact.  Then again, it is much easier to engage in grammer policing than it is to debate a point.

That's the whole problem. People are substituting opinion for fact.

Your inability to recognize that as little more than a grammar issue is just par for course.

Without anything to go one theories make the world go around, People come up with theories to make the unexplained have meaning (Every little thing in the world needs meaning, or the value of its existance is pointless if it dosent help the greater good.). No he is not wrong for haveing an idea that I was ranting about the forum members and I was one of the so called one of them or the fact everyone is speculating on fact. The only thing here is theres little to no fact, one of these people speculating might be actually right... and when more info or work comes comes out to prove there theory they'll get the respect they deserve for contributing rather than correcting peoples grammer like some people rather than contribuiting. Like all people there theories and opinions are silenced as false before there even proven wrong... as you seem to go on as learn to use Fact... where is yours?

I dunno. I guess I just don't see it as quite the existential crisis if I don't have all the answers and my illustrative theories don't garner me 'respect' from an online message board.

We're talking about a freakin' video game for goodness sakes. One that easily could be in development for another two to three years.

I don't take issue with people expressing concerns, doubts, and/or opinions so much as long as they don't try to bolster their claims with fabricated absolutes, assumed populism, or general all-around asshatry.

It's not a 'grammer' issue. If you're preoccupied with that, then you've missed my point.

 OK, I understand (and understood) your point.  Yes, it is not a fact that this is essentially a single player game.  Any educated guess as to WHAT BIOWARE HAS SAID SO FAR points to that though.  My point is, people are upset that this game is the supposed "saviour of MMOs" when it really won't even have many MMO features.  To believe that this is a compelling  MMO experience when they haven't talked about features other than the story (they've only casually mentioned that they will tack on the MMO part) is just blind faith.

To be honest, I don't think you ever understood my point.

If the game is fun, it is fun...whatever.  But if it isn't going to be an MMO, there is no need to call it one.  Just call it a multiplayer KotOR.  It cheapens the genre and opens the door for more of these "MMOs".

BioWare could always come out and announce things that are radically different from what they have been saying, but I really doubt it.  I also doubt that this game will be in development for much longer.

Like I said before, my point is unchanged.

Originally posted by demalus

 OK, I understand (and understood) your point.  Yes, it is not a fact that this is essentially a single player game.  Any educated guess as to WHAT BIOWARE HAS SAID SO FAR points to that though.  My point is, people are upset that this game is the supposed "saviour of MMOs" when it really won't even have many MMO features.  To believe that this is a compelling  MMO experience when they haven't talked about features other than the story (they've only casually mentioned that they will tack on the MMO part) is just blind faith.

To be honest, I don't think you ever understood my point.

If the game is fun, it is fun...whatever.  But if it isn't going to be an MMO, there is no need to call it one.  Just call it a multiplayer KotOR.  It cheapens the genre and opens the door for more of these "MMOs".

BioWare could always come out and announce things that are radically different from what they have been saying, but I really doubt it.  I also doubt that this game will be in development for much longer.

 

Like I said before, my point is unchanged.

I'm sorry, this is just your opinion. Really. And it is -not- backed by what BioWare Dev#s said. This is just your interpretation of it. 

Here's another educated guess (just as valid as yours at this point in time): Story is the defining element of the game, Story is what BioWare is -famous- for, which is why they actually talk about it more than about anything else. If you have a new/different feature in an established product, do you beat on the old and established things and only casually slip in "Oh and btw, we're doing this thing new/differernt"? Or do you extoll on the thing that (supposedly) makes your game different. The thing you know you are good at, because it's been proven in your previous prodcuts? 

Is that so hard to understand. Raiding, PvP, Social Elements. Those are all common things in other MMO's. Story, as BioWare does it, is not. This is what BioWare is best at. So that's what they advertise first and foremost. That does not mean in any way that the rest is not there. In fact, they have said more than once, more than on the sides, that the other features common to MMO's will be there and well done (if that will be true remains to be seen). 

So no. it is -not- a fact that they have pointed in a Single-player direction. That's what some people on these boards would like to make of it. Why? I don't know. But as you see, the other theory is just as valid with what information we have. 

The irony here is apparently some would have you believe any dispute regarding a three-letter gaming acronym is a justifiable basis for a jihad or fatwa (a threat to the known cosmos, no less), while I'm criticized as a grammar nazi for objecting to the flagrant substitution of opinion over fact. Oy vay.

 @singsofdeath

Yes, BioWare is amazing at storytelling (not so much creating the actual story IMO though).  I loved pretty much all of their games and I'm looking forward to Dragon Age and ME2.  So why make an MMO without doing anything different?  Imagine if they made a story based board game.  Imagine it had this "amazing story", but they just make checkers except add a story.  How are they improving the game itself?  Stories can be done in MMOs, but they are certainly just hacking away at the single player model until it barely passes as a multiplayer experience (if at all).  I honestly believe that stories need to be told in a much different way in MMOs.  For example, the stories told need to be either personal or actually affect everyone.  Since they've said that you won't really affect other players, that means it must be a personal story.  Here's the problem.  More than one person will have the same story - that's immersion breaking right there.  Also, a personal story therefore cannot be as epic as the Star Wars lore (which they kept touting.....heroic, star warsy, iconic, legendary, etc. etc.) because there is a good chance it would affect another player.  Now, how to get around this?  Oh, just use the single player model.  Two people can do the same thing....we'll just ignore it.  That's not immersive.  If it was single player, it would be, but an MMO is about being in a world/game that many other people are in.  To me, just knowing that other people are doing what I'm doing ruins the story because I am no longer me....I'm just another puppet.  How is that conducive to this personal journey of meaningful choices?

Sorry, but in my opinion you are being delusional if you honestly think they aren't going to tack on a generic MMO onto this game ACCORDING to what they have described.  Just because they haven't said some specific, trivial little detail about something specific does not mean that they haven't explained what this game is essentially about.  What I mean by this is that saying what the different classes are does not explain the experience you'll be getting out of this game.  Saying that this game is heavily focused on story and will just be using "standard MMO stuff" tells me plenty about what they are going to be doing.  They aren't excited at all about the MMO portion.  If you don't absolutely love the product you are making, how can it be good (ESPECIALLY on huge teams)?

Also, I sincerely hope you regard my comments as a discussion instead of dismiss them as trolling  :)

Originally posted by demalus

 OK, I understand (and understood) your point.  Yes, it is not a fact that this is essentially a single player game.  Any educated guess as to WHAT BIOWARE HAS SAID SO FAR points to that though.  My point is, people are upset that this game is the supposed "saviour of MMOs" when it really won't even have many MMO features.  To believe that this is a compelling  MMO experience when they haven't talked about features other than the story (they've only casually mentioned that they will tack on the MMO part) is just blind faith.

To be honest, I don't think you ever understood my point.

If the game is fun, it is fun...whatever.  But if it isn't going to be an MMO, there is no need to call it one.  Just call it a multiplayer KotOR.  It cheapens the genre and opens the door for more of these "MMOs".

BioWare could always come out and announce things that are radically different from what they have been saying, but I really doubt it.  I also doubt that this game will be in development for much longer.

 

Like I said before, my point is unchanged.

  I get tired of hearing this stupid arguement when bioware has announced there will be pvp, raids, crafting... it is very much going to be an mmo.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

The irony here is apparently some would have you believe any dispute regarding a three-letter gaming acronym is a justifiable basis for a jihad or fatwa (a threat to the known cosmos, no less), while I'm criticized as a grammar nazi for objecting to the flagrant substitution of opinion over fact. Oy vay.

See?  You are STILL trying to denounce me on the basis that I exaggerated a claim about other posts.  You have yet to acknowledge that I actually said something that means the same even when philosophically corrected.

You don't have to agree with me or even care that I posted something - but I don't understand why you are so invested in discrediting it for something that doesn't really affect it.  Sure, as a side effect substituting opinion for fact is inherently wrong (and I apologize for that), but like I've said, it doesn't change what I have said.

Originally posted by NecroHelium

Originally posted by demalus

 OK, I understand (and understood) your point.  Yes, it is not a fact that this is essentially a single player game.  Any educated guess as to WHAT BIOWARE HAS SAID SO FAR points to that though.  My point is, people are upset that this game is the supposed "saviour of MMOs" when it really won't even have many MMO features.  To believe that this is a compelling  MMO experience when they haven't talked about features other than the story (they've only casually mentioned that they will tack on the MMO part) is just blind faith.

To be honest, I don't think you ever understood my point.

If the game is fun, it is fun...whatever.  But if it isn't going to be an MMO, there is no need to call it one.  Just call it a multiplayer KotOR.  It cheapens the genre and opens the door for more of these "MMOs".

BioWare could always come out and announce things that are radically different from what they have been saying, but I really doubt it.  I also doubt that this game will be in development for much longer.

 

Like I said before, my point is unchanged.

  I get tired of hearing this stupid arguement when bioware has announced there will be pvp, raids, crafting... it is very much going to be an mmo.

And I've responded to stuff you've said too many times now.  Maybe I haven't done it here, so I'll repeat in short:

Just saying, "it will ahve pvp, raids, crafting, etc. whatever.....now onto the STORY!!"  is almost a non-statement.  At best it means, "ya, generic MMO stuff".  The lack of interest in the rest of the features (the ones that actually make it an MMO and warrant paying more than a one time fee) only points to a generic MMO tacked onto a great version of KotOR.  If some company came out and said, "We are making an MMO.  It will have PvE, PvP, crafting, raiding, etc.", no one would be hyped about it.  So why is this game the supposed saviour of MMOs?

Originally posted by demalus

Originally posted by NecroHelium

Originally posted by demalus

 OK, I understand (and understood) your point.  Yes, it is not a fact that this is essentially a single player game.  Any educated guess as to WHAT BIOWARE HAS SAID SO FAR points to that though.  My point is, people are upset that this game is the supposed "saviour of MMOs" when it really won't even have many MMO features.  To believe that this is a compelling  MMO experience when they haven't talked about features other than the story (they've only casually mentioned that they will tack on the MMO part) is just blind faith.

To be honest, I don't think you ever understood my point.

If the game is fun, it is fun...whatever.  But if it isn't going to be an MMO, there is no need to call it one.  Just call it a multiplayer KotOR.  It cheapens the genre and opens the door for more of these "MMOs".

BioWare could always come out and announce things that are radically different from what they have been saying, but I really doubt it.  I also doubt that this game will be in development for much longer.

 

Like I said before, my point is unchanged.

  I get tired of hearing this stupid arguement when bioware has announced there will be pvp, raids, crafting... it is very much going to be an mmo.

 

And I've responded to stuff you've said too many times now.  Maybe I haven't done it here, so I'll repeat in short:

Just saying, "it will ahve pvp, raids, crafting, etc. whatever.....now onto the STORY!!"  is almost a non-statement.  At best it means, "ya, generic MMO stuff".  The lack of interest in the rest of the features (the ones that actually make it an MMO and warrant paying more than a one time fee) only points to a generic MMO tacked onto a great version of KotOR.  If some company came out and said, "We are making an MMO.  It will have PvE, PvP, crafting, raiding, etc.", no one would be hyped about it.  So why is this game the supposed saviour of MMOs?

My point was not that this would be the "savior of mmo's," although I think it will be a very good game.  My point was that it is, in FACT (see how I used that???) an mmo, contrary to what you would have others believe.  At least in this post I got you to admit that TOR will be an mmo.

There's a lot there and I'm most likly not even going to hit everything that was said in the slightest. (Was at friends house sorry) From what I have read through I'm going with my opinion on how things work and might try to summerize whats going on between you guys at the same time. Well anyhow I think "Demalus" was misheard for what he said through misswording it, and was picked up by the "Grammer Natzi Special Forces" (You called yourself one ). Correct me if im wrong , which I probably am cause reading 5 different paragraphs or so from different posts and trying to get to the greater point when views keep changing is allways fun. His point was that his original post wouldnt have changed at all, if you corrected the word that made sense ethier way taken... The fact may not be the fact in reality of whats truth but its reffering to the "fact"  that its being used between the so called fact makers. Meaning hes reffering to the fact makers not to the actual facts. It's jsut one of those confusing processes...

Other than that don't worry that the community may not cater to your views... repect isnt allways important, except those stars do make you seem a little more plesant ;) with there brightness. Theres no point missed at all... You said I't's not a 'grammer' issue. If you're preoccupied with that, then you've missed my point. Your entire post was about  correcting his grammer and changing the meaning around missing his point. Sure you had a point about peoples speculations... but it didn't degrade his anyless if we use your reasoning.

Also to "Demalus" they have stated a dozen times that there will be more than just storyline... it will just be there main focus to draw you in compelonly but there will be alot more added to that including PVP and raids (One of the early interviews from Decemeber even said realm vs realm but I hav'nt heard much from that again). On another note you said If you don't absolutely love the product you are making, how can it be good (ESPECIALLY on huge teams)? Watch the videodocs, if you listen to the people talking you can see it in there faces there enjoying what there talking about and doing in the Star Wars universe... I wouldn't doubt it if they themselfs play the games as much as we do. Someone dosen't just write a story as compelling as they do without picturing themselfs in it, and imagining what they'd do in there place to make it seem that more realstic and fluent.

The rest jsut seems like arguments to the first part, so Grammer Natzi give me some tips cause my spelling is awful ;)

Originally posted by demalus

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

The irony here is apparently some would have you believe any dispute regarding a three-letter gaming acronym is a justifiable basis for a jihad or fatwa (a threat to the known cosmos, no less), while I'm criticized as a grammar nazi for objecting to the flagrant substitution of opinion over fact. Oy vay.

 

See?  You are STILL trying to denounce me on the basis that I exaggerated a claim about other posts.  You have yet to acknowledge that I actually said something that means the same even when philosophically corrected.

You don't have to agree with me or even care that I posted something - but I don't understand why you are so invested in discrediting it for something that doesn't really affect it.  Sure, as a side effect substituting opinion for fact is inherently wrong (and I apologize for that), but like I've said, it doesn't change what I have said.

He may be a physicist, and in that circle the mistake you just might get you perma ignored/flamed by a whole congregation of scientist. <shrug>