I keep reading over and over on these forums about how SE is going to "dumb down" the game make it less "hardcore".

OMG WTF their making it more solo friendly. OMG we might have to take off our masochist outfits and stop driving nails through our eyes, because we won't be forced into killing the same exact mob one at a time for 5 hours to lvl. /slitwrists my life is over.

Since when was HARDCORE only associated with jinormous time sinks? People in FF11 consider themselfs to be awsome and harcore because they have a lvl 75. My little brother who is 8 and has been playing since he was 6 has done everything in the game and has reached lvl 75. How? because hes 8 and has nothing else to do.

The end game content of this game is a joke. Zerg fest hit spells at a rate so slow even the most mentally challenged of our society can manage and yet people still consider this game challenging and requiring 1337 skill sets. The quests don't tell you where to go that is true. However, even my brother can read a player guide online. As im sure much of  the FF11 player base has done.

PLZ i am begging the FF11 fainbois to stop making comparisons of FF11 to wow. Or at the very least stop saying wow has no hardcore aspect to it. I am sure 90% if not more of the people making these claims don't have a 5v5 team over the 2k rating. Or have full cleared everything in the game.

And yes i played this game for a few months a while back. However, i could never get myself into enjoying masochism or the monotony of spending a massive amount of time to put a group together just to go spend the rest of my day in the same spot killing the same mob one at a time.

Originally posted by renshu77

OMG WTF their making it more solo friendly. OMG we might have to take off our masochist outfits and stop driving nails through our eyes, because we won't be forced into killing the same exact mob one at a time for 5 hours to lvl. /slitwrists my life is over.

Even if we might be complaining about solo friendly, it doesn't mean that wer'e complaining about making it casual. These 2 things don't need to go hand in hand. 

read the other threads in this forum. They even have a poll dedicated to the subject.   Here is a sumed up example " /cry their making it more casual  dumbing down the game severaly because everyone knows you have to have skills to play 80 hours a week....skip a few tear soaked paragraphs...... /sadface we can't spend 75 days of straight grinding to hit max lvl now  its going to wreck the game."

Originally posted by renshu77

I keep reading over and over on these forums about how SE is going to "dumb down" the game make it less "hardcore".

OMG WTF their making it more solo friendly. OMG we might have to take off our masochist outfits and stop driving nails through our eyes, because we won't be forced into killing the same exact mob one at a time for 5 hours to lvl. /slitwrists my life is over.

Since when was HARDCORE only associated with jinormous time sinks? People in FF11 consider themselfs to be awsome and harcore because they have a lvl 75. My little brother who is 8 and has been playing since he was 6 has done everything in the game and has reached lvl 75. How? because hes 8 and has nothing else to do.

The end game content of this game is a joke. Zerg fest hit spells at a rate so slow even the most mentally challenged of our society can manage and yet people still consider this game challenging and requiring 1337 skill sets. The quests don't tell you where to go that is true. However, even my brother can read a player guide online. As im sure much of  the FF11 player base has done.

PLZ i am begging the FF11 fainbois to stop making comparisons of FF11 to wow. Or at the very least stop saying wow has no hardcore aspect to it. I am sure 90% if not more of the people making these claims don't have a 5v5 team over the 2k rating. Or have full cleared everything in the game.

And yes i played this game for a few months a while back. However, i could never get myself into enjoying masochism or the monotony of spending a massive amount of time to put a group together just to go spend the rest of my day in the same spot killing the same mob one at a time.

Feeling better now?

I mean... you went through the trouble of creating an account just to post that, so I hope it was at least cathartic.

That said... though there are a couple things in there that could ring true (fighting the same mobs for a while whilst leveling), I really don't recognize anything else you say as being either:
1. Resembling the FFXI I've been playing these past 6 years.
or...
2. Issues with anything else but people's personalities, and not the game itself (ie. elitism, etc. etc.)

For the most part, though, it comes across as a very emotionally-driven rant.

That said... I think what many people here are concerned about is that when a company says they're making a game more "casual friendly", comparisons to WoW are a given. Reason being when other developers have said they're making their titles "casual friendly", WoW is the MMO they've tried to model it after, making a large portion of the game soloable, and thus rendering grouping unnecessary or even undesirable.

And, fans of FFXI's group dynamics and the need to coordinate with other group members see it as one its strong points... We don't want to see that fall by the wayside as the result - intended or unintended - of XIV having "more soloable content".

There's also the strong community bonds that are created through grouping and spending all that time killing whatever mobs are on the menu for that session. If you never have to party, then that whole element is undermined as well.

Originally posted by renshu77

And yes i played this game for a few months a while back. However, i could never get myself into enjoying masochism or the monotony of spending a massive amount of time to put a group together just to go spend the rest of my day in the same spot killing the same mob one at a time.

I'll tell you right now ... it is the social aspect that you miss out on in other MMOs. If you are sitting there swinging at a set of mobs for hours on end just to get your level up it is boring as hell. If you get a party where you can play efficiently (keep a steady exp) and you can chat it up and joke around with your party members you are around for those hours you end up creating more bonds with people and you find more friends that way. I have said it in other posts. This is what other MMOs are missing. It isn't just a group of people trying to work together to get the best armor available (although there is that aspect in FFXi as well), there are also oppritunities to work in a small team for a small period of time where you can gain the comradery or friendship you would be gaining in the real world if you ended up going outside and finding another activity.

Originally posted by WSIMike
I mean... you went through the trouble of creating an account just to post that, so I hope it was at least therapeutic.
 

He created another account so people wouldn't find him and flame him later about his opinion ... just pointing the facts out.

EDIT: LOL post 420

Originally posted by renshu77

read the other threads in this forum. They even have a poll dedicated to the subject.   Here is a sumed up example " /cry their making it more casual  dumbing down the game severaly because everyone knows you have to have skills to play 80 hours a week....skip a few tear soaked paragraphs...... /sadface we can't spend 75 days of straight grinding to hit max lvl now  its going to wreck the game."

Most people don't want the game "dumbed down" because there are some aspects of FFXI that are challenging. For instance the Chains of Promathia expansion. I had finished that story arc and people would look at me with the rewards and be some what hard to get. Today you don't lose exp if you are in one of the fights so there is no punishment for dying, people get exp for winning now, and you don't need to have specific equipment (that fights are level capped) to take part. This was seen as dumbing it down because it gave a lot more people could do it and not be inconvienenced. People looked at what you had to do to win even one of these fight and walked away at the first hint of trouble. Other like myself took it head on and succeeded. This is one of those aspect that were dumbed down. The challenges were made less challenging. Without the challenge there is no need to push yourself to make yourself a better player. If no one is becoming a better player you are filled with a world of idiots.

I have played WoW, honestly there is very little challenge to the game. You can pretty much solo from begining to end, instances and easy, PvP is kinda pathetic (I speak from the knowledge of getting killed the second I steped into contested territory for the first time by some lvl 75). Anyone can do it, anyone can play this game. We dont' want that in FFXIV. We want some challenge where the people who know what they are doing and people who take the time and effort of succeed get rewarded. You do not get that in WoW and at times it seems like the game becomes a game between two groups of mentally challaged kids and in the end everyone wins. That is the reason we don't want the game to be like WoW.

Personally I'd love to play FFXIV and find out that I can play for 30 minutes here or an hour there and succeed. What I liked about WoW is that you can play for small little bits at a time and that is cool. But making it so everyone wins isn't fun for anyone other than the people who can't win anywhere else in life.

Originally posted by ic0n67

 But making it so everyone wins isn't fun for anyone other than the people who can't win anywhere else in life.

 

So very true...

Originally posted by renshu77

 I am sure 90% if not more of the people making these claims don't have a 5v5 team over the 2k rating. Or have full cleared everything in the game.

 

This part is just as funny as can be. Your one of those people who want stuff handed to them no questions asked. I know a bit about WoW you do Arena and pretty much get the same exact gear as if you were raiding.

Oh yeah stop QQ'in. Learn how to play a game that actually requires skill.

I don’t think you can compare FFXI and WOW. The only thing they have in common is that they are both MMORPG’s. They cater to a completely different group of people.

In my opinion there is a huge difference between “dumbing down” and being less hardcore.

I played FFXI for years (75 RDM/30WHM/30BLM/30NIN), including end game with an HNMLS.
I never wore the “masochist” suit as I was very content with my wyrmal set and the Sandy Ahkitan around town :) I played WOW for several years (3 level 80’s) including end game raiding.

I think the OP is getting the WOW community and the FFXI community confused. I can’t ever recall anyone in FFXI that thought they were awesome and hardcore because they had a 75 but I have run into hundreds of folks on WOW who think they are awesome and hardcore because of a PVP rating.

None of these things require you to be hardcore, but removing them would be “dumbing down” in my opinion:

Removing missions required to obtain access to certain areas of the game. The first time I walked into Sky or Sea I felt like I had accomplished something, that I had earned entry.

Anyone remember partying in Qufim and running back to Jeuno to feed the chocobo?

How about the first run from Bastok to the Dunes? Or Sandoria? Remember how your heart beat as you tried to sneak past the mobs to make it to your party’s camp?

Does anyone really like the pot room on the way to Kirin? But I remember laughing until we cried when our ranger ended up in the pot room 24 times.

What about the run to Fafnir? Frantically looking for a corner when your sneak was about to wear off?

I de-leveled and hit 75 twice on Kirin one night. Once I had to call a WHM from the LS to rescue me when the “Impossible to Gauge” NM spawned on the boat from the Dunes and killed me. I was lying dead on the dock ½ naked because I wasn’t of the level to wear most of my armor.

Would the game be easier with these “obstacles” removed? Maybe. Is the game hardcore because it has obstacles? Maybe. I wouldn’t trade any of my FFXI memories for an easier game.

I don’t think WOW end game raiding guilds could begin to keep up with the HNMLS’s I knew. I’ve never seen a raiding guild sleep in shifts to beat a boss they had been fighting for 18 hours. Or have people “on call” to record TOD’s. Or log on at 2am to camp a king.

Without challenges and obstacles what memories can you have? My memories of FFXI will surely outlive those of WOW.

Originally posted by Inaya

I don’t think you can compare FFXI and WOW. The only thing they have in common is that they are both MMORPG’s. They cater to a completely different group of people.

I think that's why it hard to decide how to combine the two. I think it's one of the current topics of FFXIV until we get more information. Some want more WoW, some want more FFXI. Which direction to take? Can there be a middleground? It'll be interesting to see.

Originally posted by Inaya

Without challenges and obstacles what memories can you have? My memories of FFXI will surely outlive those of WOW. Everything Else!

 

Heck yeah, those are the words I live by when choosing to enjoy any game, but most of all MMOs!  Nothing has ever come even the slightest bit comparable too or overlaping the fond memories and experinces I earned playing FFXI!

The memories I have of FFXI:

Bots. And lots of them.

Grind. As the OP mentioned, and several people admitted, the game IS about grinding the same mob in a group over and over again, but its "ok if you joke around with your group" for hours on end.

And the horrible, horrible playonline thing, the worst way to start an MMO ever? I think they had to have design and research meetings to develop it so horrible, it couldn't have been an accident.

FFXI is "hardcore" ONLY because of its insane grind and forced grouping. It requires no more skill than WoW, only more mind-numbing grinding and a group of like-minded masochists.

No MMORPG really even begins to tax a players skill set (I hope). Press 1 over and over again until mob dies (or button "A" as the case may be)... so don't try to defend FFXI as needing more "skills" than anything else. It doesn't. None of these games can be "dumbed down". They can be made less "tedious", which is a good thing.

So here's hoping FFXIV has learned the lessons of the MMORPG community over the last few years and given up on the tedium = skillful = l33tness false premise.

Originally posted by eric_w66

The memories I have of FFXI:

Bots. And lots of them.

Grind. As the OP mentioned, and several people admitted, the game IS about grinding the same mob in a group over and over again, but its "ok if you joke around with your group" for hours on end.

And the horrible, horrible playonline thing, the worst way to start an MMO ever? I think they had to have design and research meetings to develop it so horrible, it couldn't have been an accident.

FFXI is "hardcore" ONLY because of its insane grind and forced grouping. It requires no more skill than WoW, only more mind-numbing grinding and a group of like-minded masochists.

No MMORPG really even begins to tax a players skill set (I hope). Press 1 over and over again until mob dies (or button "A" as the case may be)... so don't try to defend FFXI as needing more "skills" than anything else. It doesn't. None of these games can be "dumbed down". They can be made less "tedious", which is a good thing.

So here's hoping FFXIV has learned the lessons of the MMORPG community over the last few years and given up on the tedium = skillful = l33tness false premise.

It's just as grindy as WoW. Yeah, might come as a surprise, but that's how it is.

Originally posted by eric_w66

The memories I have of FFXI:

Bots. And lots of them.

Grind. As the OP mentioned, and several people admitted, the game IS about grinding the same mob in a group over and over again, but its "ok if you joke around with your group" for hours on end.

And the horrible, horrible playonline thing, the worst way to start an MMO ever? I think they had to have design and research meetings to develop it so horrible, it couldn't have been an accident.

FFXI is "hardcore" ONLY because of its insane grind and forced grouping. It requires no more skill than WoW, only more mind-numbing grinding and a group of like-minded masochists.

No MMORPG really even begins to tax a players skill set (I hope). Press 1 over and over again until mob dies (or button "A" as the case may be)... so don't try to defend FFXI as needing more "skills" than anything else. It doesn't. None of these games can be "dumbed down". They can be made less "tedious", which is a good thing.

So here's hoping FFXIV has learned the lessons of the MMORPG community over the last few years and given up on the tedium = skillful = l33tness false premise.

Pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.  WoW and FFXI -are- very much alike in many ways. You press the same buttons over and over to kill monsters to level up to go grind more monsters. Period. There's hardly any skill involved in either game except for how well your finger can hit a key on the keyboard. Both have a few interesting points and difference, but actually? The core of those two games and -most- other MMO's is exactly the same. And none of them take much skill, frankly. They take time. Time =/= skill.

Wrong I would argue FFXI takes more skill. The tank needs to be able to hold aggro and casters need to be carefull not to get aggro but casting too much. Plus you don't use mods like everyone in WoW does to know the threat and quest helpers and all that, which dumbs it down even more. Plus think of all the strategy and planning that WoW takes when you go into certain dungons. That's how FFXI is no matter where you are.

The OP is obviously a troll as I have been watching this thread and there are hardly any whinners about making FFXIV more casual. People have simply stated that rather it not go that way. That's all.

The only person whining is the OP.

Originally posted by natuxatu

Wrong I would argue FFXI takes more skill. The tank needs to be able to hold aggro and casters need to be carefull not to get aggro but casting too much. Plus you don't use mods like everyone in WoW does to know the threat and quest helpers and all that, which dumbs it down even more. Plus think of all the strategy and planning that WoW takes when you go into certain dungons. That's how FFXI is no matter where you are.

The OP is obviously a troll as I have been watching this thread and there are hardly any whinners about making FFXIV more casual. People have simply stated that rather it not go that way. That's all.

The only person whining is the OP.

Uh......I've played both games. And many other MMO's. Every time you group the tank has to hold agro and the nukers have to be careful not to pull agro. Are you living in a cave or something? That formula is staple for every group-based-dungeon/activity out there. 

I wonder how many people looked up quests online to figure out how to do them in FFXI. And there ARE FFXI mods. Illegal ones, but I know many...many players who do use them. And quite honestly even WoW's most used mods were DPS trackers, threat meters (you still have to know how NOT to cast too many nukes or when to use your taunts kids) and stuff like Auctioneer and Titan Bar, which just kept track of sales, gold, ammo etc.  FFXI doesn't take much more strategy when you're just grouping on normal mobs. In fact, I used to get so damned bored waiting for the TP calls during those drawn out fights I'd read a few pages of a book in between. And I was a paladin tank, and a damned good one (I was told so by several rangers, bm's and whm's etc many times, not patting myself on the back here - it's a fact). 

And if you think there are "hardly any whiners" you obviously haven't read that "poll: do you want FFIV more or less casual than WoW blah-blah" thread that's been going for 19 or so pages, with plenty of "core" players throwing a fit already before there's even much information on the game except that it will have some content for less-than-core players.

Sheesh

I disagree about everything you said really. So I guess it's a matter of opinion. And for 19 pages or whatever that thread has stayed mostly civil and has just been a normal discussion. Yet the OP has to create a new topic to complain about that. Please.
 

I've played both games and I enjoy both games. Sorry but when I'm killing mobs and can solo all the way to the max level. No skill is really involved. For the simple fact that it's more required to party in FFXI makes the game more skill focused. I'm not saying it's hard but you need to work together. You can't run around killing things by clicking fireball fireball fireball next mob repeat.

So yes tanks and all that are staples of most MMOs, but few actually require players to put them into practice. Guess it's you living under the cave. But alas I'm done here. Peace~  ^^

Originally posted by KaitarBesh

Originally posted by natuxatu

Wrong I would argue FFXI takes more skill. The tank needs to be able to hold aggro and casters need to be carefull not to get aggro but casting too much. Plus you don't use mods like everyone in WoW does to know the threat and quest helpers and all that, which dumbs it down even more. Plus think of all the strategy and planning that WoW takes when you go into certain dungons. That's how FFXI is no matter where you are.

The OP is obviously a troll as I have been watching this thread and there are hardly any whinners about making FFXIV more casual. People have simply stated that rather it not go that way. That's all.

The only person whining is the OP.

 

Uh......I've played both games. And many other MMO's. Every time you group the tank has to hold agro and the nukers have to be careful not to pull agro. Are you living in a cave or something? That formula is staple for every group-based-dungeon/activity out there. 

 

I wonder how many people looked up quests online to figure out how to do them in FFXI. And there ARE FFXI mods. Illegal ones, but I know many...many players who do use them. And quite honestly even WoW's most used mods were DPS trackers, threat meters (you still have to know how NOT to cast too many nukes or when to use your taunts kids) and stuff like Auctioneer and Titan Bar, which just kept track of sales, gold, ammo etc.  FFXI doesn't take much more strategy when you're just grouping on normal mobs. In fact, I used to get so damned bored waiting for the TP calls during those drawn out fights I'd read a few pages of a book in between. And I was a paladin tank, and a damned good one (I was told so by several rangers, bm's and whm's etc many times, not patting myself on the back here - it's a fact). 

 

And if you think there are "hardly any whiners" you obviously haven't read that "poll: do you want FFIV more or less casual than WoW blah-blah" thread that's been going for 19 or so pages, with plenty of "core" players throwing a fit already before there's even much information on the game except that it will have some content for less-than-core players.

 

Sheesh

 

He wasn't saying that FFXI you actually had to tank/watch aggro, what he was saying is that in FFXI you don't have a trillion add-ons to help you. For instance in WoW you have "Damage meter, aggro meter, pet aggro meter, boss/enemy health, buzzing sounds/screen flashing when you get to much aggro"

And I agree with his point. I play'd FFXI (60RDM 45BLU 30NIN...and a bunch of smaller stuff) And i've play'd WOW (70Hunter, 40 hunter, 20 mage, and alot of smaller classes) So i'm not "new" to eather game.

And whether you like it or not WoW is ALOT easier then FFXI, Sure FFXI has the "grind" issue and what not..But in WoW you can pick up ANY class and play it for 30 minutes and be good at it. (Point in case, I play'd FFXI for 1.5 years and got what I did, I play'd wow for 4 months and got the 70 hunter and whatnot)

I have a friend who LOVES WOW. he has a 80 lock right now. I can serously sit there for 15 minutes figuring out the char. and go solo some of the hardest area's by myself.

Wow Is and always will be a easier game. Just the facts.

It seems not only silly, but bad business to create another MMO that competes with ones you already have.  Why would they make FFXIV just as group centric as FFXI?  Why would you make FFXIV as hardcore as FFXI?  I'm pretty sure I've read that they have no intention of replacing FFXI, so you may be very, very surprised how much different FFXIV will be from FFXI.