I'm probably going to get flamed for this line of thinking but here goes:

Yes the companies hype their games, its marketing, hopefully it will make them money.  Every company does this; pepsi puts out a commercial for a new soft drink and you think "hmmm wonder if it's any good..." you go out and buy it and it tastes awful! The worst thing you do is tell your friends who are picking some up not to bother.  With games it is different to a point, and I acknowledge that but not drastically different.  You don't say that pepsi is a crap company for putting out a soda that taste terrible to you, but gaming companies deal with this constantly.  Again I recognize its not a perfect metaphor but I think you can see what I am trying to say. 

Sometimes I feel like we the consumers of MMO's ask for the hype, we get it, foam at the mouth, and then are dissapointed when the game isn't "what we expected."  If you remember the posts on MMORPG.com after AoC came out, there were a lot of "not what I expected" posts and yes some people only complained about the bugs. 

WoW opening up the market share is a good thing overall I think, (I am not saying that WoW is good, it just brought a lot of fresh blood into the market) but the one bad thing it has certainly done is pushed companies to release info about a new game entirely too early.  A good example of this right now is Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic online.  Just look at the forums and the discussions about what is going to be in the game or not.  A company releasing info on a game too early will encourage this and get people dreaming up what a title is going to be only to be dissapointed when it is nothing like it.   If you go to website for this game there is very little information about what this game will be like.  You have some info on some "jobs" but no real sense of what the game is going to be like and hence the posts I see all the time about how it's going to be a co-op rpg and not an mmo. (I kinda thought that was what an mmo is but perhaps I play differently than others)  Perhaps they are further along in development of this game than I realize...wouldn't be a first...but from their own website it just feels like there are some major gaps there.

Yes the developers are at fault, but I think we, the gamers are too.  Besides how much pressure is the developer getting from the publisher, who makes money off the box sales not really the monthly fee (or least this is what I have been told, I could be totally off here, please feel free to correct this info if you know better) to push the hype? These are things I wonder.  How much of it comes from us begging for more info that stuff is released only to find out oops changing that and this because it just doesn't work.  Suddenly something that was selling the game for you is gone and your left thinking "What tha? What just happened here?"  Taking your time and developing your game until its pretty close to launch before announcing it doesn't bother me.  We are half way through 2009 and SE just released info on a new game due out next year (so at most a year and half, unless it gets bumped back which happens, but less likely since it's been in development for so long before annoucement, 5 years to be exact).  Some of us knew they were working on a new game...but didn't know what or when.  This is a better approach imho.  Still not a lot of info on it but some will trickle out slowly but surely, the bulk of it won't until the game is about to be released so that players will not be, or at least less likely to be, dissapointed.  They weren't promised something only to see it removed.  I will be very surprised is SE deviates from this.

I do think that forums will be more "negative" in tone because of the fact that if you agree you aren't likely to post much if at all.  So naturally the posts in a thread seem to disagree and you get a back and forth.  This isn't necessarly a bad thing as discussion can lead to some pretty interesting discoveries.  You just have to ignore the people who make statements like "crap game" and thats it, they don't give you any reason why they didn't like it or anything useful to the conversation. These types of people exists in every community both online and in the real world.  You must learn to acknowledge that they have not evolved and your life gets much easier.  (Learn to laugh at some of the posts too :P)

I'm sure I will get some flames but not worried about it, we are all free to think differently.

The main issue is that many mmo gamers are getting older and as all people who get older they see their past as a glorified wonderful thing and feel most things today aren't as good as they used to be. This is something that happens to every generation for as long as there have been humans and the generation that have grown up never ever realize that they are just like the old idiots that said silly things to them while they were young.

Realistically if you released games like DaoC or EQ today they would be laughed at compared to the games there is comming out today even if they had modern graphics. Grind grind grind, bad interface, little content, forced grouping, spawn camping for hours and hours, getting into list for farm groups and so on.

People had fun still and it was mostly because they were younger than they are today. We all change when we get older but we rarely percieve how we change so we blame everything around us for that change instead of seeing that its really ourselves that have changed.

For example your tolerance towards other peoples behavior goes down as you age, when you are young you just accept and bond with others, that stops as you mature and you get careful about making contact with strangers, so you blame the game for making too much for soloers and have too little community content while you yourself is a part of the fragmentation process.

The games comming out today are often far better made and offers far more content than the classics did, but the customers are not the same anymore. The young ones just throw themselves at them but the olders (and this process already start in the late 20's) feel alienated and feel that this isn't as good as it was when they were young.

Yes there are games that come out in a bad state like AoC, but mostly games are better at release now than back in the "golden" days. 

Try to look inside yourself and remember who you were and then you will hopefully realize its _you_ who have changed more than the games.

Originally posted by afoaa

The main issue is that many mmo gamers are getting older and as all people who get older they see their past as a glorified wonderful thing and feel most things today aren't as good as they used to be. This is something that happens to every generation for as long as there have been humans and the generation that have grown up never ever realize that they are just like the old idiots that said silly things to them while they were young.

Realistically if you released games like DaoC or EQ today they would be laughed at compared to the games there is comming out today even if they had modern graphics. Grind grind grind, bad interface, little content, forced grouping, spawn camping for hours and hours, getting into list for farm groups and so on.

People had fun still and it was mostly because they were younger than they are today. We all change when we get older but we rarely percieve how we change so we blame everything around us for that change instead of seeing that its really ourselves that have changed.

For example your tolerance towards other peoples behavior goes down as you age, when you are young you just accept and bond with others, that stops as you mature and you get careful about making contact with strangers, so you blame the game for making too much for soloers and have too little community content while you yourself is a part of the fragmentation process.

The games comming out today are often far better made and offers far more content than the classics did, but the customers are not the same anymore. The young ones just throw themselves at them but the olders (and this process already start in the late 20's) feel alienated and feel that this isn't as good as it was when they were young.

Yes there are games that come out in a bad state like AoC, but mostly games are better at release now than back in the "golden" days. 

Try to look inside yourself and remember who you were and then you will hopefully realize its _you_ who have changed more than the games.

You are using quite a lot of broad brush strokes for "older" gamers.  I am sure that there are people out there that fall into these catagories but I must say I have met fewer of the type you describe than I have the opposite.  I currently play in an all adult guild, most of them in their 30's and 40's, and we all enjoy playing the game together.  We include new people all the time and have forged great friendships in what many here would say is a solo game.

To say that you lose patience...I dunno, I had no patience when I was 16, 18, 20.  My patience and tolerance are much better now at 25.   I would argue that patience grows as you age.  Though once again there may be some who fit in your rather broad view (its big enough to include a lot).

I would be curious to know the ages of those who post things like "this game is B.S." with no explanation as to why. I see a lot of these posts before the games even release.  I'm sure some are "older" but I bet some are "younger"

I agree that games should be changing and bringing in new and fresh ideas, but to say the mmo community is just a bunch of old people whining about the glory days is not the problem.  There maybe some out there doing this, not going to argue that, just saying that this isn't the core problem with the mmo community. 

Most people that like the genre just shut up and play the games they like and don't waste their time on forums, the ones that are not pleased by how things are going stay on forums and bitch and argue hoping that someday someone will see their posts and "realise" the problems and make a game that suits them.

There will always bee people that argue about games, sometimes criticism can be creative, but the is a thin line that often is crossed by most people and they don't see it.

just my 2 cent.

Originally posted by Axehilt

This community is like any other online.  A bunch of people who sometimes disagree.  Disagreements then fill up the forums, by the nature of online discussion:

• If you agree with someone, you're likely to make one single post saying "I agree", or possibly say nothing at all.
• If you disagree with someone, you're much more likely to have a back-and-forth conversation debating your view(s).  This can potentially be a lot of posts.

For what it's worth, MMORPG.com's forums are at least filled with a higher than normal amount of intelligent posters.  But even the most intellectual of forums obey the two rules above, and therefore are filled with conflicting opinions.

Beyond that, discussion of mistakes and brainstorming their solutions is the most interesting conversation to be had here.  See the Diablo 3 thread, where (despite my considering Diablo 2 one of the greatest games ever) I point out a number of failings in Diablo 2's game design that I hope to see alleviated in the sequel.

/agree

Originally posted by Tedly224

When MMORPGs made their initial run from 1998 through 2003, or even early 2004, home computer costs needed to run the games with good ability were out of reach of many households, especially for teenager / children evening dominated use. The people that played those games through that stretch were largely adult or late teen users that treated the games like a hobby, and spoke mostly like hobby enthusiasts.

Late 2004 on, yes, World of Warcraft opened the doors of a highly successful game based on a game engine that even low-mid tech systems could run. Computer component prices steadily dropped, more teens could get their own machines, DSL became more affordable and more useful for a household to get, etc. Upshot, the gamer / hobby enthusiast type of player dropped into the minority by a large margin.

If you want a better community and for people to post with useful insights with respect (things that weren't all *that* rare to find on the EQ and DAoC boards, and especially launch City of Heroes)... You'll have to go back in time. Those days are long gone.

 

Think of it that PCs didnt drop in price we would still have a overall good community instead we got WOW and other crappy MMO and a community full of trash with the GIMME GIMME fever.

Originally posted by altairzq

Maybe some people need to get some perspective and realize that companies only offer crap.

Or some other need to realize that they are incapable of having fun.

Originally posted by altairzq

Maybe some people need to get some perspective and realize that companies only offer crap.

I have to agree, ever new game that comes out that doesn't get a 100% , "ooo this is awesome"  review from players has this kind of thread, posted by fans of a certain game who want to try and flip the  or spin why people don't agree with "said" game.

Being apart of many betas and tasting all kinds of stradegies to enduce "mmo fever" I am immuned to the tatics. People will create this these posts out of "mmo fever" and not even realize what they are doing, again "mmo fever" is serious business, it is a sickness and until people realize this and learn to control there minds on what is actually quality, we will continue to see this posts for every mediocre game released.

 The internet has rules,  are called netiquette.  I have not problem on discussions to (almost) anything, If follow the netiquette.

In particular, MMO's are both a piece of art, and a piece of craft.  And a product, that is sell for exchange of money. So of course, we are customers, and we can vent our disagreement or disagreement for these products or how are made. 

People are the problem, they never agree with me and are big poopie heads.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

It isn't the gamer's fault that alot of these games are buggy, it isn't the gamer's fault that games do not deliver the fun factor, it isn't the gamer's fault that they charge a monthly fee knowing their game isn't finished. What I do blame gamer's for is paying for broken mmos. Until they stop and show the devs who really controls the mmo market then you will constantly have bad apples like I mentioned above.

I would agree, except that you are forgetting one important, previously mentioned fact about the genra having opened up to a wider and often younger audience. Why is this important? Because most of these "gamers" don't actually pay for these games. Mommy and Daddy do. And when you are spending someone else's money, do you really think these kids are going to quit playing a game that all of their friends play to try and make a statemnet to the Dev community? The parents pay, but they don't play, and so they don't realize (or care perhaps) that their kids are getting ripped off. As long as the kids are quiet, that's all that matters. right?

Most people around here are waiting for something that won't happen.

Originally posted by Bjornulve

Originally posted by SaintViktor

It isn't the gamer's fault that alot of these games are buggy, it isn't the gamer's fault that games do not deliver the fun factor, it isn't the gamer's fault that they charge a monthly fee knowing their game isn't finished. What I do blame gamer's for is paying for broken mmos. Until they stop and show the devs who really controls the mmo market then you will constantly have bad apples like I mentioned above.

 

I would agree, except that you are forgetting one important, previously mentioned fact about the genra having opened up to a wider and often younger audience. Why is this important? Because most of these "gamers" don't actually pay for these games. Mommy and Daddy do. And when you are spending someone else's money, do you really think these kids are going to quit playing a game that all of their friends play to try and make a statemnet to the Dev community? The parents pay, but they don't play, and so they don't realize (or care perhaps) that their kids are getting ripped off. As long as the kids are quiet, that's all that matters. right?

True, the younger kids don't even care about the kind of things regarding a game compared to a more mature gamer. Though I still believe that the more mature crowd can set an example and not pay for half-assed broken buggy games we been getting throughout the years in regards to mmos.

its cuz mmo's these days are really uninventive lately, with no new ideas, with no sense of art or pride, just in it to get a quick buck. And those who enjoy it are either addicted the same way people get addicted to alcohol or drugs, or they are casual gamers. The people who actually like mmo's are left dissapointed with dozens of unfullfilled promises and expectations unmet.

I think far too many companies look at WoW's 11 million subscribers and see the profits that they imagine come from that. Then they decide that because this business model worked, that the success can be duplicated in the same way.

The environment in which WoW was released contributed greatly to the success of the product. I think WoW is a great game. Does it work for everyone? No. But it does what it does very well.

At the time it was released, not many people were playing MMOs, and those that were tended to be, as someone else said, either young adults or late teens. MMOs were expensive, computer resource intensive, and extremely time intensive. So the people who were playing had to have both money and time.

WoW was released around the same time as EQ2, from memory. I was playing EQ and a lot of people were interested in trying something different. But their expectations were quite open. People tried EQ2, they tried WoW. Some didn't like WoW's graphics. But others appreciated the less time-intensive nature of WoW. WoW allowed something that we now take for granted - the ability to do something in a short space of time, without requiring a group. For sure, you cannot do an end-game raid or an instance, but you can do something. In EQ, most people were restricted to group-only activities and dependant on class, could not often get a group at all.

This opened up the MMO market to people who didn't have a lot of resources in the way of money and time, and made it more mainstream. WoW's aggressive marketing also introduced it to people who weren't familiar with MMOs. The decision to moderate player behaviour at the level Blizzard has done, has meant that parents may feel safer letting their children play it. And because of how it's marketed, adults don't feel like they're playing a kid's game. Add to all that an interface that was easy to use and customer support that got back to you within a reasonable timeframe (especially compared to the existing competition) and Blizzard had their niche.

When people complain about WoW clones, its probably a good idea to stop and think about what that means. Do they mean that it's not time-intensive? Do they mean the interface is laid out with the same keybindings? Do they mean the graphic style is identical? This term is used far too often without being questioned.

I don't think the community has been spoiled by the "WoW Give Me Now!" mentality. I think this mentality exists in the outside world and it was only a matter of time before the MMO culture normalised itself against that wider group. This discussion is part of that - that we expect games to deliver what we want, how we want and at a price that we think is suitable. Whether or not that is realistic. Blaming Blizzard for that is not reasonable.

To assume that a casual gamer does not really like MMOs and that somewhere there is an elite group of MMO lovers who have more right to talk about what is good or bad in an MMO, is erroneous. The definition of 'casual gamer' differs from group to group, game to game. One would also think that unless a casual gamer liked the game, they would not be playing.

Game companies are producing a product for a profit. If their customers feel that promises are unfulfilled or expectations falling short, then this message needs to be clearly communicated to the company. And the subscription cancelled or the game unbought. I stopped playing EQ when I realised that Sony were going to nerf my game experience to all hell despite knowing what the community thought, and despite the problems they wanted fixing arising out of their own decisions.  It's their game, they can do what they like - but I felt that if I really objected to what they were doing, the only appropriate decision was to stop paying them money.

If we do not hold companies accountable for the state of their product, and continue to buy unfinished, substandard games, what does that teach the companies? That they can keep doing it with no real consequence because its cheaper for them to produce shoddy games, and the customers still buy them so why bother producing good ones?

Given the current environment, I don't think the market is going to produce another WoW.  If someone wants to compete they are going to have to produce something which is popular, rather than innovative. Innovation gets you nowhere if the rest of the product is terrible. New games need to be solid from the ground up, and at this time there is no incentive for companies to do this, as their product will be bought and played anyway.

And perhaps I should have added that this is more often the result of the parent/financing company's decisions than the developers.

Games that have used up their development budget need to be released to start making a profit. Whether or not they are finished, and we've seen far too many games pushed onto the market because of a marketing/finance decision, rather than the development decision that the product is ready.

This is not a development fault, but a fault in the priorities of the parent/financing company. A quick buck now, or solid profits later. Most don't seem to look past the quick buck now.

What is wrong with the community you ask.

Answer: It's full with immature children and immature adults.

What is wrong with the game makers?

Answer: I think that they are not very good at what they are doing.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by altairzq

Maybe some people need to get some perspective and realize that companies only offer crap.

 

This is just nonsense. Some releases have been totally mismanaged but that's always been the case. There have been a few reasonably well made games lately. Most of the problem is emergent play. Developers just don't completely understand how their game mechanics will be used by players.

No he's right it is all boring grinding crap and the only good ones have been ruined by shit developers.

What is wrong with the community? It became popular. thats it. end of story.

The things happening to MMOs right now are exactly the same things that happen to any niche kind of thing, music, movies, games when they become mainstream. you can blame developers of you want, you can blame whatever you like but if you go and study what happens to a product when the genre go into the mainstream public you will see the same things happening to MMOs right now.

Originally posted by afoaa

Realistically if you released games like DaoC or EQ today they would be laughed at compared to the games there is comming out today even if they had modern graphics. Grind grind grind, bad interface, little content, forced grouping, spawn camping for hours and hours, getting into list for farm groups and so on.

Realistically:

Give me a game with realistic weight on every item that affects your walking/running speed, the swing of your weapons, the falling damage. A game were you have to respect the environment because if you die in a dangerous place or too deep inside a dungeon you are screwed for days. A game were faction really means something, where if you are an Ogre you are hated basically in 80% of the fame and it's a pain  to do anything, buying, selling, training, getting materials. I still remember i had to cross Qeynos through the sewers to get fish  for a receipt in a distand island. That took me 3 days, you can't imagine the emotion when I finally left the sewers and swam free in the ocean, this is something no MMO gives you today. A game without maps and without minimap and bloody GPS, which made you memorize every signal in the landscape, where you could effectively get lost and die and good luck recovering your stuff. A game where you can attack any NPC (anyone in a red server) and suffer the consequences. A game without teleports, besides some special classes. A game where you needed each other to survive.

I don't think anybody would laugh at a game like that. And we had it back in 1999 until 2002 where SOE destroyed it with PoP expansion.

In comparison, we are getting crap in a nice box today.