So many people have completely forgotten how to enjoy an MMO for what it offers and instead are on a mission to only focus on what it doesn't give them from the minute they play it.  Or fall in love for 2 weeks before they start the bashing. These people who are incapable of mustering the money, resources or talent to even scratch the surface of what developers have accomplished sit back and judge the people who are actually contributing to this industry.  It just seems like there is a growing trend to poision every game that comes along these days, with people making it part of their daily agenda.  Shower check, pay bills check, log into mmorpg bash <insert MMO game here> check.  Maybe some of these people need a break from gaming to get a change of perspective.
 

Originally posted by alderdale

So many people have completely forgotten how to enjoy an MMO for what it offers and instead are on a mission to only focus on what it doesn't give them from the minute they play it.  Or fall in love for 2 weeks before they start the bashing. These people who are incapable of mustering the money, resources or talent to even scratch the surface of what developers have accomplished sit back and judge the people who are actually contributing to this industry.  It just seems like there is a growing trend to poision every game that comes along these days, with people making it part of their daily agenda.  Shower check, pay bills check, log into mmorpg bash <insert MMO game here> check.  Maybe some of these people need a break from gaming to get a change of perspective.
 

While I agree to a certain extent you should have left this thought out. I don't have to be able to make a game to know if I enjoy one. I really don't owe people who do poor work any credit any more than they owe me a game perfectly suited to me personally.

When MMORPGs made their initial run from 1998 through 2003, or even early 2004, home computer costs needed to run the games with good ability were out of reach of many households, especially for teenager / children evening dominated use. The people that played those games through that stretch were largely adult or late teen users that treated the games like a hobby, and spoke mostly like hobby enthusiasts.

Late 2004 on, yes, World of Warcraft opened the doors of a highly successful game based on a game engine that even low-mid tech systems could run. Computer component prices steadily dropped, more teens could get their own machines, DSL became more affordable and more useful for a household to get, etc. Upshot, the gamer / hobby enthusiast type of player dropped into the minority by a large margin.

If you want a better community and for people to post with useful insights with respect (things that weren't all *that* rare to find on the EQ and DAoC boards, and especially launch City of Heroes)... You'll have to go back in time. Those days are long gone.

Maybe some people need to get some perspective and realize that companies only offer crap.

This community is like any other online.  A bunch of people who sometimes disagree.  Disagreements then fill up the forums, by the nature of online discussion:

• If you agree with someone, you're likely to make one single post saying "I agree", or possibly say nothing at all.
• If you disagree with someone, you're much more likely to have a back-and-forth conversation debating your view(s).  This can potentially be a lot of posts.

For what it's worth, MMORPG.com's forums are at least filled with a higher than normal amount of intelligent posters.  But even the most intellectual of forums obey the two rules above, and therefore are filled with conflicting opinions.

Beyond that, discussion of mistakes and brainstorming their solutions is the most interesting conversation to be had here.  See the Diablo 3 thread, where (despite my considering Diablo 2 one of the greatest games ever) I point out a number of failings in Diablo 2's game design that I hope to see alleviated in the sequel.

Originally posted by altairzq

Maybe some people need to get some perspective and realize that companies only offer crap.

This is just nonsense. Some releases have been totally mismanaged but that's always been the case. There have been a few reasonably well made games lately. Most of the problem is emergent play. Developers just don't completely understand how their game mechanics will be used by players.

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Originally posted by Waterlily
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Originally posted by altairzq

Maybe some people need to get some perspective and realize that companies only offer crap.

The gentleman (and I use that term loosely) from Texas seconds this motion.

Well after being majorly disappointed (as I'm being nice using the word disappointed) from Age of Conan and Warhammer Online in 2008 I think you would be skeptical about new mmos as well. Heck, I can go back even further and mention how LOTRO , a wonderul ip, being turned into just an average game at best by Turbine.

You see we all heard they hype from these guys and were told " oh this is going to be tremendous, we have such a great IP, the combat will be revolutionary, RVR is epic" Lotro is average at best and the only reason it gets more kudos compared to AOC and WAR is because it was less buggy. It is a crime that Turbine delivered us a boring version of LOTR.

Warhammer was hyped so much from Jeff Hickman and Paul Barnett you would think they was running for president. They danced and joked on their videos telling us how great WAR was going to be , how RVR was going to be awesome, how we have such a glorious ip but yet they managed to gives us a major stinker that still has many issues.

Age of Conan, to sum this up Gaute Godager no longer works for Funcom, That is how bad the release was and people do not forgive when you give a bad first impression. I will give Funcom atleast major kudos for fixing alot of issues and making it better than WAR but still, many will not come back to subscribe because there are better mmos coming our way.

It isn't the gamer's fault that alot of these games are buggy, it isn't the gamer's fault that games do not deliver the fun factor, it isn't the gamer's fault that they charge a monthly fee knowing their game isn't finished. What I do blame gamer's for is paying for broken mmos. Until they stop and show the devs who really controls the mmo market then you will constantly have bad apples like I mentioned above.

Originally posted by alderdale

So many people have completely forgotten how to enjoy an MMO for what it offers and instead are on a mission to only focus on what it doesn't give them from the minute they play it.  Or fall in love for 2 weeks before they start the bashing. These people who are incapable of mustering the money, resources or talent to even scratch the surface of what developers have accomplished sit back and judge the people who are actually contributing to this industry.  It just seems like there is a growing trend to poision every game that comes along these days, with people making it part of their daily agenda.  Shower check, pay bills check, log into mmorpg bash <insert MMO game here> check.  Maybe some of these people need a break from gaming to get a change of perspective.
 

I think that more than anything, you should be asking yourself: What is wrong with MMORPG developers?

Why do they continue to hype up and release sub par WoW-clones? Why are they so afraid of trying something new, or something different? Instead, they blindly continue to release WoW clones falsely believing that because 11 million people play WoW, they will jump ship to another game if it's just like WoW. Newsflash! They will not. The 11 million WoW players play WoW because they like WoW. They don't play WoW as a substitute, while waiting for WoW-Clone X to be released.

If you really want to entice those 11 million to at least try your game, give them something different, something that doesn't remind them of WoW and their 7 level 80's and their weekly Naxx raids. Think about it, why would they leave all of their accomplishments behind and go over to another game if the game is, very often, nothing more than a not-so-good WoW?

Now that I'm done with my rant, I have a feeling that the community as a whole is jaded by recent releases. With the exception of the IP and art style, they are all essentially very similar to WoW or EQ. And, personally, that is begining to annoy the crap out of me and probably other people too.

Take a look at the mmos themselves , games full of bots , mobs bashing if you want a "beautifull" game   . Eve is ok  but got to like spaceships .

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Originally posted by SaintViktor
It is a crime that Turbine delivered us a boring version of LOTR.

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They delivered LOTR.

Which is to say: LOTR is a tame (aka boring) universe.

What's the most impressive thing Gandalf tosses around? A few lens flares. Apart from that he's an accomplished melee fighter in a few scenes.

So a gandalf-inspired Lore Master class inevitably can't do much -- particularly if they want to keep Gandalf as an impressive hero. And while I'm playing LOTRO and generally enjoying it so far, including the clever way my Lore Master uses lore rather than outright magic to combat his foes, tossing ignited black powder in a mob's face will never be as exciting as snapping my fingers to cause him to instantly combust, or causing a volcanic eruption centered on my location (which are things my WAR Bright Wizard could do.)

So they delivered LOTR, and I don't really fault them for being strongly constrained by the LOTR universe. For what it's worth I think they've pushed the universe about as far as they can, considering my Lore Master tosses ignited black powder in mobs' face every fight -- which is a lot more than Gandalf did.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by alderdale

So many people have completely forgotten how to enjoy an MMO for what it offers and instead are on a mission to only focus on what it doesn't give them from the minute they play it.  Or fall in love for 2 weeks before they start the bashing. These people who are incapable of mustering the money, resources or talent to even scratch the surface of what developers have accomplished sit back and judge the people who are actually contributing to this industry.  It just seems like there is a growing trend to poision every game that comes along these days, with people making it part of their daily agenda.  Shower check, pay bills check, log into mmorpg bash <insert MMO game here> check.  Maybe some of these people need a break from gaming to get a change of perspective.
 

 

I think that more than anything, you should be asking yourself: What is wrong with MMORPG developers?

Why do they continue to hype up and release sub par WoW-clones? Why are they so afraid of trying something new, or something different? Instead, they blindly continue to release WoW clones falsely believing that because 11 million people play WoW, they will jump ship to another game if it's just like WoW. Newsflash! They will not. The 11 million WoW players play WoW because they like WoW. They don't play WoW as a substitute, while waiting for WoW-Clone X to be released.

If you really want to entice those 11 million to at least try your game, give them something different, something that doesn't remind them of WoW and their 7 level 80's and their weekly Naxx raids. Think about it, why would they leave all of their accomplishments behind and go over to another game if the game is, very often, nothing more than a not-so-good WoW?

Now that I'm done with my rant, I have a feeling that the community as a whole is jaded by recent releases. With the exception of the IP and art style, they are all essentially very similar to WoW or EQ. And, personally, that is begining to annoy the crap out of me and probably other people too.

Why are they so afraid of trying something new, or something different?

Because of this never-ending cycle.  I see people saying "I want a game with A, B, C, and D", then a game with "A" is released.  Are most of these people happy? No. They say, "Where is B, C, and D? It's all or nothing".  Then, the game with "A" fails, and the devs decide it must be because no one wants anything new.  Of course, sometimes the devs fail, make a bad game with "A" in it, and decide the same thing.  Almost(?) no one is going to take a chance on a game with A-D because of this, they'll pick one of those at most.

UO was revolutionary in it's way, being the first(?) MMORPG to do so well.  EQ and AC were revolutionary mostly due to the switch to 3d, IMO.  Honestly, I've not noticed any real revolution since the change to 3d. My thought: Don't expect a revolution, expect evolution.  Maybe I'll be proven wrong...

One more thing: What can I lose if the devs take a big chance? Nothing for open betas/trials, maybe the money for a box with the game.  What can they lose? They can go out of business and lose their jobs. So, I think they think having a job is more important to them, than we are.

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Originally posted by blackthornn

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Originally posted by Waterlily
<Mod edit>

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<Mod edit>

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Originally posted by Axehilt
Which is to say: LOTR is a tame (aka boring) universe.

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Originally posted by LunaLupus

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by alderdale

So many people have completely forgotten how to enjoy an MMO for what it offers and instead are on a mission to only focus on what it doesn't give them from the minute they play it.  Or fall in love for 2 weeks before they start the bashing. These people who are incapable of mustering the money, resources or talent to even scratch the surface of what developers have accomplished sit back and judge the people who are actually contributing to this industry.  It just seems like there is a growing trend to poision every game that comes along these days, with people making it part of their daily agenda.  Shower check, pay bills check, log into mmorpg bash <insert MMO game here> check.  Maybe some of these people need a break from gaming to get a change of perspective.
 

 

I think that more than anything, you should be asking yourself: What is wrong with MMORPG developers?

Why do they continue to hype up and release sub par WoW-clones? Why are they so afraid of trying something new, or something different? Instead, they blindly continue to release WoW clones falsely believing that because 11 million people play WoW, they will jump ship to another game if it's just like WoW. Newsflash! They will not. The 11 million WoW players play WoW because they like WoW. They don't play WoW as a substitute, while waiting for WoW-Clone X to be released.

If you really want to entice those 11 million to at least try your game, give them something different, something that doesn't remind them of WoW and their 7 level 80's and their weekly Naxx raids. Think about it, why would they leave all of their accomplishments behind and go over to another game if the game is, very often, nothing more than a not-so-good WoW?

Now that I'm done with my rant, I have a feeling that the community as a whole is jaded by recent releases. With the exception of the IP and art style, they are all essentially very similar to WoW or EQ. And, personally, that is begining to annoy the crap out of me and probably other people too.

 

Why are they so afraid of trying something new, or something different?

 

Because of this never-ending cycle.  I see people saying "I want a game with A, B, C, and D", then a game with "A" is released.  Are most of these people happy? No. They say, "Where is B, C, and D? It's all or nothing".  Then, the game with "A" fails, and the devs decide it must be because no one wants anything new.  Of course, sometimes the devs fail, make a bad game with "A" in it, and decide the same thing.  Almost(?) no one is going to take a chance on a game with A-D because of this, they'll pick one of those at most.

 

UO was revolutionary in it's way, being the first(?) MMORPG to do so well.  EQ and AC were revolutionary mostly due to the switch to 3d, IMO.  Honestly, I've not noticed any real revolution since the change to 3d. My thought: Don't expect a revolution, expect evolution.  Maybe I'll be proven wrong...

 

One more thing: What can I lose if the devs take a big chance? Nothing for open betas/trials, maybe the money for a box with the game.  What can they lose? They can go out of business and lose their jobs. So, I think they think having a job is more important to them, than we are.

Very often what happens is that a game that tries something new, fails because the old and outdated concepts included with the new, outweigh anything new added to the game. Take any new MMO that was recently released. Most of them are not doing too well not because of any new features but mostly because even the new features are not enough to offset the old present in the games.

While, I do not lose a lot by purchasing a crappy game, the problem I do have is that all these great IPs are being ruined. Conan, Warhammer, Star Wars (not The Old Republic--not enough info to base an educated opinion), Stargate, Star Trek, etc.

Originally posted by alderdale

These people who are incapable of mustering the money, resources or talent to even scratch the surface of what developers have accomplished sit back and judge the people who are actually contributing to this industry.
 

Bend over a bit farther and you can hire yourself out as a contortionist!

Originally posted by heartless 

Very often what happens is that a game that tries something new, fails because the old and outdated concepts included with the new, outweigh anything new added to the game. Take any new MMO that was recently released. Most of them are not doing too well not because of any new features but mostly because even the new features are not enough to offset the old present in the games.

While, I do not lose a lot by purchasing a crappy game, the problem I do have is that all these great IPs are being ruined. Conan, Warhammer, Star Wars (not The Old Republic--not enough info to base an educated opinion), Stargate, Star Trek, etc.

Really, that's my point.  I've played console and PC games my whole life.  It seems to me that no game has done more than "baby steps" in changing it's genre.  Except with the change to 3D, when people wanted to "start over".  A good example is going from Super Mario World to Super Mario 64.  No real innovation in SMW, just "get to the end before time runs out". SM64 was almost like having small "sandbox" levels, with much more freedom.  Then everyone cloned it over and over, including Nintendo.  The biggest innovation being playing it with a Wii-mote.  Which is similar to MMOs, except we didn't even get a figurative Wii-mote. 

I'll come clean, give me a new world with new places to explore and I'm happy in an MMO (ok, throw out buggy games, F2P, etc., but in general...).  Throw in a guild, that's even better.  However, choice is always better from a gamer POV (yes, that's an opinion).  I'm up for trying something new in MMOs. I just don't see change beyond baby steps happening soon.

I feel like the mmo community has grown too fast for its own good.

The only time I ever see these threads is at a game release or near it, and "said: game had a beta and people slammed it. Then the posts come, boohoo what wrong with the community, seriously need to wake up and say "what is wrong with the game"  Complete utter fluff has been done to death Asian game developers, but they would rather sit around and blame us, "the community" for the lack of ideas and exciting game play.

Look in the mirror, the only way to help the community , is to help yourself.