I would compare niche games to niche music.

In music, you have mainstream artists and niche artists (much like with video games)

Mainstream (in music) obviously varies between different countries. But we all know who those artists are in our respective countries. I guess someone like Coldplay would be a good example of a band that most people around the world will know. Personally, I'm a fan.

Then you get more niche acts such as This Will Destroy you... Their music is way too soft and has no vocals so you wouldn't hear it on mainstream radio. But that doesn't make them shit. Their genre of music (post-rock) is used a lot on adverts and movies. However, the masses tend to prefer faster paced, vocal based music when it comes to buying a CD. On the other hand, you get bands who are "niche" simply because they're not good enough to be mainstream. But it's best to remember niche doesn't mean bad. Some niche bands are incredible, some are awful.

With MMOs it's exactly the same. You get some games which are niche because they tailor to a certain kind of market and wouldn't appeal to the masses. On the other hand there are other games with a small player base because they're just plain bad games. Both types are niche but for different reasons. I haven't played Darkfall so I don't know which category it fits into.

But the point is... Niche doesn't necessarily mean bad.

does "niche game" = "shitty game"?

eve online.... space. ffa pvp.  sandbox.  full loot.  single server.  conquer/control territory.   doesn't get much more niche than that.

~300,000 subs.

it's got its problems, all mmos have something "you", the individual player, won't like. 

no, niche does not equal shitty, nor small.

Originally posted by Cristina1

Originally posted by Fariic

Originally posted by Cristina1

Niche games = you have to use your brain a bit.

Mainstream games = for people with short attention span and WIN buttons.

This is a perfect example of what I was saying at the end of my post.
 

A DFO fanatic.
DFO is niche, they enjoy DFO.
They think anything that is mainstream is crap.
DFO is great to them.
Not only is DFO a great game, you have to use your brain.
The implication there is that because they like DFO, a niche game, they are smarter then those people that enjoy mainstream games.

That sense of superiority and being better then those that don't fall within thier niche.
They don't just like a game that most people simply consider to be a bad game.  They are better then everyone else because they play a game that only a handful of people are able to find enjoyment in.

 

I wasnt just talkign about DF this thread is about niche games in general. I have also watched how people from mainstrteam game (WoW) get on DF, they quict straight away not because of lack of polish but because they cannot comprehend that they can do anything they do. They are afraid that nobody is holdign their hand anymore. And yes you have to use your brain a lot more in niche games, as an extreme example, go play EVE or World War 2 Online, you will achieve nothing in at least 2 weeks. in mainstream games you can be halfway throught it in 2 weeks, because there is very little thinkign involved, everything is designed so that all you have to do is click a few buttons and defate everyone and become a special king/queen because everybody is a winner (cough whiner cough).

toontown and hello kitty online, both, seem to be niche...

people don't quit DF because it's too hard and makes you think.   the whole "they quit cuz they come from wow" ... explain that to me.   i also don't agree that you can't accomplish anything in eve, in your first two weeks.   halfway thru wow in two weeks?  are you talking levels only?  or are you talking attuned to whatever, high reputations with all the high end groups, high end raid and pvp gear, etc....

you're making over generalized statements, not putting anything to back your statements, and just grouping everything as A or B.

elaborate please; as is, your statements don't amount to much.

Originally posted by Cristina1

Niche games = you have to use your brain a bit.

Mainstream games = for people with short attention span and WIN buttons.

how do you win an mmo?

Originally posted by SuperCrap

That's fine, but both those games have actually had a shit-ton of players.  I don't think it is accurate to call Ultima Online or EVE as niche games, compared to WoW they might be, but it is like comparing a rock band that sells a million records to the Beatles, ok a million records is small compared to what the Beatles sold, but a million records sold means a band is quite popular!

 

People say, [in my experience], people say that EVE is a niche game in order to try to make their shitty game nobody is interested in sound like it might be the same as EVE.  But EVE is not really a niche game, it is a widely respected and admired game in the industry, with a large and dedicated fan base. 

You are trying too argue by definition. Not considered a very strong argument.

Niche games are shitty, by your definition.

If a game is not shitty, then you will say it is not niche, becasue you will define niche to only include games that are shitty.

EVE is not niche, because you've defined Niche as not including EVE.

Originally posted by damian7

Originally posted by Cristina1

Originally posted by Fariic

Originally posted by Cristina1

Niche games = you have to use your brain a bit.

Mainstream games = for people with short attention span and WIN buttons.

This is a perfect example of what I was saying at the end of my post.
 

A DFO fanatic.
DFO is niche, they enjoy DFO.
They think anything that is mainstream is crap.
DFO is great to them.
Not only is DFO a great game, you have to use your brain.
The implication there is that because they like DFO, a niche game, they are smarter then those people that enjoy mainstream games.

That sense of superiority and being better then those that don't fall within thier niche.
They don't just like a game that most people simply consider to be a bad game.  They are better then everyone else because they play a game that only a handful of people are able to find enjoyment in.

 

I wasnt just talkign about DF this thread is about niche games in general. I have also watched how people from mainstrteam game (WoW) get on DF, they quict straight away not because of lack of polish but because they cannot comprehend that they can do anything they do. They are afraid that nobody is holdign their hand anymore. And yes you have to use your brain a lot more in niche games, as an extreme example, go play EVE or World War 2 Online, you will achieve nothing in at least 2 weeks. in mainstream games you can be halfway throught it in 2 weeks, because there is very little thinkign involved, everything is designed so that all you have to do is click a few buttons and defate everyone and become a special king/queen because everybody is a winner (cough whiner cough).

 

toontown and hello kitty online, both, seem to be niche...

 

people don't quit DF because it's too hard and makes you think.   the whole "they quit cuz they come from wow" ... explain that to me.   i also don't agree that you can't accomplish anything in eve, in your first two weeks.   halfway thru wow in two weeks?  are you talking levels only?  or are you talking attuned to whatever, high reputations with all the high end groups, high end raid and pvp gear, etc....

 

you're making over generalized statements, not putting anything to back your statements, and just grouping everything as A or B.

 

elaborate please; as is, your statements don't amount to much.

 

 

Can't really expect them to back anything up with something other then gross generalization.
They like feeling smarter and better then the magority for playing a game.  In a way I envy them.  I wish I could find a game that makes me better then you.  It would be a lot easier being smarter then someone just because I play a game.

Personally I wish niche could be removed from gaming.  The word has just become a means by wich people justify bad games.  It's not bad, it's niche, and therefore justifies the fact that only a handful of people play it; afterall, that's what the devs were aiming for.

Somewhere in the world a group of people enjoy eating cowpie. 
It doesn't matter if a few people like eating it, it doesn't change the fact that they're eating a pile of crap.

Originally posted by Cristina1

Originally posted by Fariic

Originally posted by Cristina1

Niche games = you have to use your brain a bit.

Mainstream games = for people with short attention span and WIN buttons.

This is a perfect example of what I was saying at the end of my post.
 

A DFO fanatic.
DFO is niche, they enjoy DFO.
They think anything that is mainstream is crap.
DFO is great to them.
Not only is DFO a great game, you have to use your brain.
The implication there is that because they like DFO, a niche game, they are smarter then those people that enjoy mainstream games.

That sense of superiority and being better then those that don't fall within thier niche.
They don't just like a game that most people simply consider to be a bad game.  They are better then everyone else because they play a game that only a handful of people are able to find enjoyment in.

 

I wasnt just talkign about DF this thread is about niche games in general. I have also watched how people from mainstrteam game (WoW) get on DF, they quict straight away not because of lack of polish but because they cannot comprehend that they can do anything they do. They are afraid that nobody is holdign their hand anymore. And yes you have to use your brain a lot more in niche games, as an extreme example, go play EVE or World War 2 Online, you will achieve nothing in at least 2 weeks. in mainstream games you can be halfway throught it in 2 weeks, because there is very little thinkign involved, everything is designed so that all you have to do is click a few buttons and defate everyone and become a special king/queen because everybody is a winner (cough whiner cough).

Actually, you went ans reinforced the point there, especially when you point out EVE as people who use their brains, I play EVE, its a great game with many, many layers.  DF is not.  Who here doesn't know at this time to be successful in DF you need just a few things. 1. A relatively large guild.  2. Macro up weapon/magic/archery.  3. have lots of extra gear in the bank.   That's pretty much it.  Once you do those 3 things you're done, now go out and swing/cast/shoot at others ie click 1 button over and over. 

Oh and watch out for hackers that will run you down while mounted or steal your boat.

None of that takes any brainpower.  In EVE its spreadsheets to figure out what you'll learn while online as well as offline, you plan that out for weeks/months to get where you want to be.  If you realllly think that Darkfall takes any more brainpower than even WoW you're living in a dreamworld....but of course most of the rest of us know that.

Mainstream games are made for as wide a demographic as possible.  Of course they are going to be less challenging, as a whole.  If you want a huge amount of people playing your game, why would you make it too difficult for them?  EVE has done damn well, for a niche game.  I think the issue is not whether a niche game = a shitty game, but the difference between a well-put together game and one that is thrown out for sale while still incomplete and/or buggy as hell.  EVE proves that a solid niche game can make money.  You concentrate on the things that make your game unique, polish the piss out of it, and maintain the game well.

Originally posted by damian7

 

 

eve online.... space. ffa pvp.  sandbox.  full loot.  single server.  conquer/control territory.   doesn't get much more niche than that. 

~300,000 subs.

 it's got its problems, all mmos have something "you", the individual player, won't like. 

 

This is the game that tends to prove most of the stereotypes are nonsense. It breaks all the rules. It's also bordering on not being niche any more. More and more mainstream elements are being worked into the game without altering what made the game niche. It's been having an effect on the market and beginning to redefine which games are considered mainstream. When people were spouting how Darkfall would revolutionize the MMO genre they were looking at the wrong games. Eve, SW:ToR if they can pull off what they're planning and the first really sucessful MMO to incorporate an aiming system will be those games. They won't change the nature of  MMOs completely so much as broaden it.

Well your post seems to be focusing on graphics, especially with the don't want to look at a bucket of puke... statement. As far as graphics in Darkfall, I think they're good. Yeah, thats right. I like the graphics in Darkfall, and yes, I do think it's beutifully detailed.

The only problem with it, is the lack of PvE. And the PvE that currently exists, consists of exploitation. Once this is fixed, in my eyes, the game will be perfect.

Am I a niche? Yes, I suppose I am.
Nowadays, people who don't cry and whine when they die, and enjoy risky, heart-pumping PvP that has a meaning, in an uninstanced world with no shitty little crappy instanced mini-games like an FPS, are a niche. I'm happy to be part of this niche, and Darkfall suits my playstyle perfectly.

And when you say it looks like puke, I don't understand that... The graphics are visually better than the most popular MMO on the market, and the world is also far more nicely detailed (Before someone mentions it, I know it's rather empty. They cut lots of mobs because of exploitation).

They just need to fix AI exploitation (players getting into walls), and add more mobs and PvE that's worth doing. Then Darkfall will be fucking amazing.

Originally posted by Adam1902

Well your post seems to be focusing on graphics, especially with the don't want to look at a bucket of puke... statement. As far as graphics in Darkfall, I think they're good. Yeah, thats right. I like the graphics in Darkfall, and yes, I do think it's beutifully detailed.

The only problem with it, is the lack of PvE. And the PvE that currently exists, consists of exploitation. Once this is fixed, in my eyes, the game will be perfect.

Am I a niche? Yes, I suppose I am.
Nowadays, people who don't cry and whine when they die, and enjoy risky, heart-pumping PvP that has a meaning, in an uninstanced world with no shitty little crappy instanced mini-games like an FPS, are a niche. I'm happy to be part of this niche, and Darkfall suits my playstyle perfectly.

And when you say it looks like puke, I don't understand that... The graphics are visually better than the most popular MMO on the market, and the world is also far more nicely detailed (Before someone mentions it, I know it's rather empty. They cut lots of mobs because of exploitation).

They just need to fix AI exploitation (players getting into walls), and add more mobs and PvE that's worth doing. Then Darkfall will be fucking amazing.

before making posts like this; please, at least play darkfall.

can you look at the graphics in a pvp game, and ignore the awful animations of both characters and the background?  i guess, if you're just looking at screenshots.

how're you enjoying not having to harvest because of your super advanced henchmen AI?  how're you enjoying that player housing?  how're you enjoying skilling up those pets you've tamed?  how're you enjoying the revolutionary mob AI that is so advanced that it can simulate actual players?  how's the non-repetitive, challenging, fun & exciting crafting going?  what about those 300+ prestige classes?  which ones of those are you training?  how about those sieges where you can crouchwalk UNDER the fortress/city walls because they are placed so shittily that they don't even touch the ground?   how about those ships with cannons TWICE the range of city towers?  nothing like a tiny ship, bobbing on the ocean, with firepower that dwarfs that of a full-fledged city!!!!!!  how about texting your friend's phone from inside the game (sms and all dontchaknow)?  that revolutionary trade system which you don't have to be logged in to utilize?  you can use the trade system from the darkfall website!  all those super advanced chat system innovations -- you enjoying all that revolutionary technology?  how about invading an enemy city, logging out in their keep, logging back in, running invulnerable from the keep to the enemy bank and whipping out a cannon?  you enjoying that?

yup, once they stop the "ai exploitation of players hiding in walls" then this game will be fucking amazing!

whether this game is truly defined as a "niche" or not, is truly a moot point - the game itself, is horridly implemented, boring IN EXTREMIS grinds, non-communicative dev team, and just broken and/or stupid game mechanics...

No, niche does not equal badly made.  Some games will be designed for more mass appeal, (like SWTOR) and others will be aimed at a smaller audience (MO)

Both can be decent quality and fun for those who play them.

I think eve is a perfect example that Niche game != small player base.

People do use the word way to much to justiy a bad game with low subs.   EvE and DF are both designed for a "niche" market.

Eve is sucessful in its market. Darkfall isnt.   Its just that simple.

Eve is growing and expanding the devs even got a job from a popular IP to make another game.

I dont like EvE, dont like most space ship games. But I do think its a good game. And Im excited that ccp is making another game. 

Originally posted by veritas_X

I disagree because of Ultima.  Its considered niche, but is an incredibly deep, quality game.  It wasn't always considered niche, the market and the playerbase changed around it while it remained essentially the same game its always been.

EVE is also considered niche, and I doubt anyone would call it a bucket of crap. 

The definition is subjective, but if you take to mean 'less than 500k players' (or whatever number) that doesn't automatically mean its a junk game.

Ultima Online wasn't niche when it launched because you had either that or Meridian 59 to choose from as your online game of choice.

Today however, Ultima Online is quite niche.

I think that the first EverQuest game stole a bit of Ultimas Online's thunder when it launched but it still wasn't niche.

It became niche once World of Warcraft launched and the rest is history.

Originally posted by damian7

Originally posted by Adam1902

Well your post seems to be focusing on graphics, especially with the don't want to look at a bucket of puke... statement. As far as graphics in Darkfall, I think they're good. Yeah, thats right. I like the graphics in Darkfall, and yes, I do think it's beutifully detailed.

The only problem with it, is the lack of PvE. And the PvE that currently exists, consists of exploitation. Once this is fixed, in my eyes, the game will be perfect.

Am I a niche? Yes, I suppose I am.
Nowadays, people who don't cry and whine when they die, and enjoy risky, heart-pumping PvP that has a meaning, in an uninstanced world with no shitty little crappy instanced mini-games like an FPS, are a niche. I'm happy to be part of this niche, and Darkfall suits my playstyle perfectly.

And when you say it looks like puke, I don't understand that... The graphics are visually better than the most popular MMO on the market, and the world is also far more nicely detailed (Before someone mentions it, I know it's rather empty. They cut lots of mobs because of exploitation).

They just need to fix AI exploitation (players getting into walls), and add more mobs and PvE that's worth doing. Then Darkfall will be fucking amazing.

 

before making posts like this; please, at least play darkfall.

can you look at the graphics in a pvp game, and ignore the awful animations of both characters and the background?  i guess, if you're just looking at screenshots.

how're you enjoying not having to harvest because of your super advanced henchmen AI?  how're you enjoying that player housing?  how're you enjoying skilling up those pets you've tamed?  how're you enjoying the revolutionary mob AI that is so advanced that it can simulate actual players?  how's the non-repetitive, challenging, fun & exciting crafting going?  what about those 300+ prestige classes?  which ones of those are you training?  how about those sieges where you can crouchwalk UNDER the fortress/city walls because they are placed so shittily that they don't even touch the ground?   how about those ships with cannons TWICE the range of city towers?  nothing like a tiny ship, bobbing on the ocean, with firepower that dwarfs that of a full-fledged city!!!!!!  how about texting your friend's phone from inside the game (sms and all dontchaknow)?  that revolutionary trade system which you don't have to be logged in to utilize?  you can use the trade system from the darkfall website!  all those super advanced chat system innovations -- you enjoying all that revolutionary technology?  how about invading an enemy city, logging out in their keep, logging back in, running invulnerable from the keep to the enemy bank and whipping out a cannon?  you enjoying that?

 

yup, once they stop the "ai exploitation of players hiding in walls" then this game will be fucking amazing!

 

 

whether this game is truly defined as a "niche" or not, is truly a moot point - the game itself, is horridly implemented, boring IN EXTREMIS grinds, non-communicative dev team, and just broken and/or stupid game mechanics...

I played Darkfall for 2 months, with about 350 xFire in-game hours logged (played longer than that, don't sign in sometimes. So I'm not just talking shit.

And yes, yes. Nice work, you made a list of very old FAQ features (which were Aventurines high expectations whilst developing the game), along with very over-exagerated points (They never said 300+ prestiege classes, more like "12+". And they're still planned for the future I believe), and a few now fixed bugs (can't log in invulnerable anymore, and walking under city walls? Wasn't aware of that, and if so it's probably fixed. I do remember jumping up a corner of a wall and a mountain though, to get into a city. Their clan reported it and it got fixed.)

You also mentioned alot of website features that aren't in YET, yes I said yet. You see how much of the interface is actually in a browser? Well, I expect that soon, the games official site, will be integrated with the game. I imagine you'll be able to manage your clan and city bindstone from work, and talk to people who are in-game through the site. Aswell as access the forums from either in-game, or on an internet browser. There's probably more they'll do with it.

Also, the revolutionary trade system which you don't have to be logged in to utilize that you mentioned, I imagine that this will also have something to do with game / website integration. Also, Aventurine called it revolutionary in their FAQ, but game-website integration, whilst was indeed very revolutionary when they wrote it, probably isn't new to us anymore. However, still a very amazing feature I believe.

Face it, they released the game early. You pay for a beta. It ofcourse has bugs, glitches etc just like any other beta would. And quite a number of the more advanced features are missing. But look, the core of the game is there. And what is there, works very well, and is very fun to play in my opinion. I don't care what anyone else says, I just absolutely love the stuff you're capable of doing in the game, and just the general feel of the game, the gameplay. I love the politics and drama too, brawls between different Alliances, and sometimes internal brawls, with guilds within the alliance falling out with one another. - I act all serious in-game, for role-play sake. But really, I love it.

In my opinion, the PvP, Crafting, and traveling and exploring aspects are 100% spot on. PvE is broken, and the rest isn't implemented yet.

When I have the free time, I'm going to make a blog or something, that has stories of the shit we got up to in DF. It's just so fun, and I love the game. Each to his own.

Lets compare df with a hot dog.

You ordered the msot expensive hot dog on the meny: chili dog with extra cheese and special bread.

But when the waiter brings it to you he tells you: sorry we dont have any bread so you'll have to eat that chiliy and cheese covered sausage with your hands. Oh and btw we didnt have any beans for the chili, so you'll get them in 1 or 2h

Darkfall is a niche game and a low quality product.

However, as others have pointed out, EVE is a niche game and is a high quality product.

So "niche game" does not automatically mean "shitty game".

Originally posted by Adam1902

Originally posted by damian7

Originally posted by Adam1902

Well your post seems to be focusing on graphics, especially with the don't want to look at a bucket of puke... statement. As far as graphics in Darkfall, I think they're good. Yeah, thats right. I like the graphics in Darkfall, and yes, I do think it's beutifully detailed.

The only problem with it, is the lack of PvE. And the PvE that currently exists, consists of exploitation. Once this is fixed, in my eyes, the game will be perfect.

Am I a niche? Yes, I suppose I am.
Nowadays, people who don't cry and whine when they die, and enjoy risky, heart-pumping PvP that has a meaning, in an uninstanced world with no shitty little crappy instanced mini-games like an FPS, are a niche. I'm happy to be part of this niche, and Darkfall suits my playstyle perfectly.

And when you say it looks like puke, I don't understand that... The graphics are visually better than the most popular MMO on the market, and the world is also far more nicely detailed (Before someone mentions it, I know it's rather empty. They cut lots of mobs because of exploitation).

They just need to fix AI exploitation (players getting into walls), and add more mobs and PvE that's worth doing. Then Darkfall will be fucking amazing.

 

before making posts like this; please, at least play darkfall.

can you look at the graphics in a pvp game, and ignore the awful animations of both characters and the background?  i guess, if you're just looking at screenshots.

how're you enjoying not having to harvest because of your super advanced henchmen AI?  how're you enjoying that player housing?  how're you enjoying skilling up those pets you've tamed?  how're you enjoying the revolutionary mob AI that is so advanced that it can simulate actual players?  how's the non-repetitive, challenging, fun & exciting crafting going?  what about those 300+ prestige classes?  which ones of those are you training?  how about those sieges where you can crouchwalk UNDER the fortress/city walls because they are placed so shittily that they don't even touch the ground?   how about those ships with cannons TWICE the range of city towers?  nothing like a tiny ship, bobbing on the ocean, with firepower that dwarfs that of a full-fledged city!!!!!!  how about texting your friend's phone from inside the game (sms and all dontchaknow)?  that revolutionary trade system which you don't have to be logged in to utilize?  you can use the trade system from the darkfall website!  all those super advanced chat system innovations -- you enjoying all that revolutionary technology?  how about invading an enemy city, logging out in their keep, logging back in, running invulnerable from the keep to the enemy bank and whipping out a cannon?  you enjoying that?

 

yup, once they stop the "ai exploitation of players hiding in walls" then this game will be fucking amazing!

 

 

whether this game is truly defined as a "niche" or not, is truly a moot point - the game itself, is horridly implemented, boring IN EXTREMIS grinds, non-communicative dev team, and just broken and/or stupid game mechanics...

I played Darkfall for 2 months, with about 350 xFire in-game hours logged (played longer than that, don't sign in sometimes. So I'm not just talking shit.

And yes, yes. Nice work, you made a list of very old FAQ features (which were Aventurines high expectations whilst developing the game), along with very over-exagerated points (They never said 300+ prestiege classes, more like "12+". And they're still planned for the future I believe), and a few now fixed bugs (can't log in invulnerable anymore, and walking under city walls? Wasn't aware of that, and if so it's probably fixed. I do remember jumping up a corner of a wall and a mountain though, to get into a city. Their clan reported it and it got fixed.)   <<< ok,. you're proving you have no idea what you're talking about... there were HUNDREDS OF PRESTIGE CLASSES.  so, you're either lying, of you have no idea what you're talking about.  OLD faq features?  weird, some of those are STILL on the website.

we darkfall players are TIRED of people LYING about darkfall - troll elsewhere!

You also mentioned alot of website features that aren't in YET, yes I said yet. You see how much of the interface is actually in a browser? Well, I expect that soon, the games official site, will be integrated with the game. I imagine you'll be able to manage your clan and city bindstone from work, and talk to people who are in-game through the site. Aswell as access the forums from either in-game, or on an internet browser. There's probably more they'll do with it.  <<features advertised as a part of the game, on the official game's site, run and managed and owned by the gaming company... that is illegal in the united states, we call that false advertising.  ILLEGAL AS IN BREAKING THE LAW. consumers are protected against scams such as that in the USA.

Also, the revolutionary trade system which you don't have to be logged in to utilize that you mentioned, I imagine that this will also have something to do with game / website integration. Also, Aventurine called it revolutionary in their FAQ, but game-website integration, whilst was indeed very revolutionary when they wrote it, probably isn't new to us anymore. However, still a very amazing feature I believe. <<< it doesn't exist in darkfall, only in the lies that are in their website

 

Face it, they released the game early. You pay for a beta. It ofcourse has bugs, glitches etc just like any other beta would.  << it's called beta testing.  seriously, post in one of the several dozen threads IN THIS FORUM, that cover EVERY inaccurate statement you are making.  we darkfall players are tired of this endless series of untruths.

 

And quite a number of the more advanced features are missing. But look, the core of the game is there. And what is there, works very well, and is very fun to play in my opinion.  <<< have you missed the horrible game mechanics involved in sieging, which just i have posted today?   you either don't play, or you are lying -- sieging is currently broken in horrible game breaking fashions.

 

I don't care what anyone else says,  <<< SO STOP LYING.  I, AS A DARKFALL PLAYER AM SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE LYING ABOUT THIS BLODY GAME.

 

I just absolutely love the stuff you're capable of doing in the game, and just the general feel of the game, the gameplay. I love the politics and drama too, brawls between different Alliances, and sometimes internal brawls, with guilds within the alliance falling out with one another. - I act all serious in-game, for role-play sake. But really, I love it.

In my opinion, the PvP, Crafting, and traveling and exploring aspects are 100% spot on. PvE is broken, and the rest isn't implemented yet.

When I have the free time, I'm going to make a blog or something, that has stories of the shit we got up to in DF. It's just so fun, and I love the game. Each to his own.

 seriously - whatever.  put up accurate information in your postings, or go troll somewhere else.  lies, presented as opinion, which contradict factual information ARE LIES.

Hey guys, thanks for keeping this thread civil, and for the many interesting replies [I'm sure there will be more].  I wish this forum software did not make quoting other posters so awkward, or else I would like to quote and reply to several in this post.  But anyways.....

Yes, as someone said [as if it is a criticism? lol], this thread is about what it means to be a niche game, and more specifically how this applies to a game like Darkfail.  Of course there are different definitions of what it means to be "niche", but as myself and several other posters in this thread have observed, the term has come to be used frequently by gamers and developers to try to spin a bad game, in other words they try to imply that it's not "bad" it's "special".  Fanboys of Darkfail are among the most notorious for using the word in this way, but more and more when someone describes a game as "niche" you can just assume that it means the game is crap.

I have a hard time getting on board with the idea that developers are making their game for a specific small demographic of gamers ONLY.  Do you really think the Darkfail developers, for example, were hoping to MAX their game at say 100,000 subs, do you really think they intentionally DESIGNED the game in order that this would be the maximum possible level of success that they were dreaming of.  You really think they didn't have a vision of themselves building the new revolutionary game that would be a wild and crazy success with millions of subscribers and would change the face of MMOs?  Nobody, not even the Darkfail devs, puts that much work into a project unless they have a big dream for it.  I don't believe these theoretical game developers exist who are trying to design a game that will be "NOT FUN" for most people!  It is in the nature of game developers that they want people to enjoy their game.  I think it would be extremely rare to find a developer who does not believe [or hope] that most people would enjoy their game if those people took the time to "get into it".  Never have I read any game developer interview or essay where the developer talks about how most people are too shit for their game to have any appeal and how they are only designing their game to be fun for the 1% of strange people out there.  And certainly I have never seen or heard of that in an MMO context, it is a bit absurd imo to suggest that there are all these developers out there trying to design games that are "not fun" for most people and only have appeal for a small "niche" of bizarro types of humans.

This is why I think the word "niche" is being misused and for most gamers "niche" has just become a polite way of saying a game is shitty, while for developers it has become a way to spin their marketing a little bit when the project does not turn out as good as they had hoped when they started making it. 

As I wrote before, if the term is used in a more proper or traditional way, a niche game is something like tournament mahjong.  It might be the best mahjong game ever made, but the truth is most people just don't like to play mahjong that much, while some people are addicted to it.  This is a game that has a profound appeal to an extremely specific customer base and not much theoretical appeal to anyone else.  I don't believe the same concept applies easily to any MMO, and there is no MMO out there currently that could really be considered "niche" imo, except when the term is used in a vague, imprecise way to indicate that the game is not as popular as WoW.  IF WE IMAGINED A MMO THAT ACTUALLY FIT THE TRADITIONAL DEFINITION OF "NICHE" IT WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE A HARDCORE PORN S&M MMO.  EVEN A HARDCORE PORN MMO WOULD NOT REALLY BE NICHE AS IT HAS THEORETICAL APPEAL

 TO MOST PEOPLE, BUT IF IT IS FOCUSED ON S&M THEN THIS IS "NICHE".  I don't believe there is any mmo that exists today that is analogous to that, but if there was I and the vast majority of mmo gamers would likely not have heard of it, because by [traditional] definition a niche product is something that most people outside the niche would not be aware of.

AND THAT BRINGS ME TO THE FINAL POINT.  Why do people insist on calling EVE a "niche" game?  Can you show any evidence that the developers consider or considered it to be "niche"?  I really feel when applied to a game like EVE the word "niche" is a misnomer, and it shows how much the meaning of the word has become watered down by fanboys and developers trying to spin their game in a positive way by applying the word "niche" to every game out there that most people would think wasn't a very good game.

Of course whether something is "niche" or not, is ultimately relative.  But more and more among mmo gamers it is my observation that the term is used to describe games that are shitty, and this is annoying imo.

Usually people refer as "niche" things that are not mainstream (specially in the US). If you do not have more than 1M subs, you are niche. If you are a Sci-Fi game not sporting some huge license, like SW or ST, then you are niche.

Of course, those are wrong definitions. There are niche games out there, like bass fishing, online pool games, dog simulators and such. They can be perfectly fun for their fans, but do not appeal to the masses, and usually are done with that in mind.

So, "niche" became the piece of resistance of people who likes bad/hugely impopular games. DFO is certainly in this category, now. It's something like the "indie developer" thing, just a slippery term trying to give something a positive spin.

DFO certainly wasn't developed with "niche" in mind. Aventurine (and Tasos, mainly) wanted a huge, open-PVP free for all that would be the latest Internet craze. At least, that's what transpires when you read their announceements/info. However, we all know that things went south faster than birds of passage, and now the fans use "niche" as a last resort, trying to play the "too h4rdc0r3 for joo, n0ob" card, as some sort of explanation of why the game is not bustling. It's certainly easier than facing the fact that people are spending good money on an unfinished product, that they were deceived brutally and shamefully, and that the game is parsecs away from what was hailed as the gamer's Grail.

Denial is part of the human nature, no problem in that. I'm sure that are people who like the game, despite of itself. However, that does not magically erase the abysmal lunch and first monthes of one of the most overhyped and inflated things since the Internet itself.