Originally posted by denshing

So what happens when you reach max level on all 8 classes. I will not continue to play unless endgame has amazing PVP and Raids. Let's face it, they need something more than just amazing storyline to retain it's players because lets face it. Amazing story driven single player games are usually a 1 or 2 time play-through.

Thats sort of an oxymoron.  Unless its good 5-10 times through, its not an amazing story driven game.  If they can truly have your actions affect the rest of your game, then depending on how its done, 5-10 would even be a low end estimate.

Story modifies choice -->choice modifies action -->action modifies Story -->

Originally posted by badgerer

But would anyone have paid a monthly sub to play Neverwinter Nights?

*raises hand* - with professional quality content advancing the storylines each month, hell yes.

Eventually we're gonna come full circle and get back to the one player / story driven mmorpg formula that got it right -

Asheron's Call.

Originally posted by Flummoxed

Originally posted by badgerer

But would anyone have paid a monthly sub to play Neverwinter Nights?

 

*raises hand* - with professional quality content advancing the storylines each month, hell yes.

Eventually we're gonna come full circle and get back to the one player / story driven mmorpg formula 

that got it right -

Asheron's Call.

Raids and PvP have already been confirmed... every TOR thread seems to be pushing the idea that there is a problem based purely on speculation and with all available evidence pointing in the other direction.

"The Old Republic looks and feels far more like a single player RPG than an MMO."

-throws up-

D:

“No one has made [story] the central pillar of the game as we have,”

I'm.. less interested now. I don't care one bit about story.. if I want to enjoy a good story i'll read a book. I want an MMO.. it worries me that the first thing everyone mentions is the "awesome storylines and great voices".

Question: is the game world linear? If the gameworld is a sandbox then I'll be re-interested.

One thing we know for certain is if SWtoR becomes the next WoW all the money won't be wasted on bailing out a mega corporation from bankruptcy (Vivendi), it will go to EA who actually will use the money to produce games, and better future content for SWtoR.

Hell if Bioware does things right you can have a couple alts at endgame and never run out of content cause you will be progressing several characters at the same time, Hell you could play them all if you are a hardcore gamer and experience all the story. Content updated would take you a ton of time to finish with al your alts.

Originally posted by socrates656

There is alot of ignorance on these forums now a days it seems. People prejudging somthing they havin't even played before, or even saying that this game is going to blow blizzards WoW's sales out of the water... how long have you people been playing MMO's for?

I have been beta testing alot of MMO's for about 9 years now, and this year I had the oppurtunity to beta test some MMO's that are suppost to be comming out at the end of this year, and most of them are just terrible in my opinion. Things being copied and done over and over again, Crafting systems being ripped off from WoW and calling it their own .ect .ect

I hope this game is good, I really do. God knows how many terrible MMO's that have been comming out in the last 4 years. The game looks "nice", but you can't really judge it until you have played it. You guys should of learned that when Age of Conan came out and still you havin't learned anything. Anyone can put a couple of nice screenshots of a game and say it's new a revolutionary and people believe it, and eat it up, EVERYTIME. This is just as ignorant as when a politition comes out and says he's going to cut taxes and people vote for him, because they believe everything he is saying.

How stupid can you people be? Are you seriously that dumb?

People are extremely stupid, including myself on occasion. :) However, in this case I'm plain excited and the preview here, as well as the Deceived movie sure hit the right buttons for me. You know why? Because I am 38 and it is Star Wars!!!! I was what, 8 years old when the first movie came out, and there had just been nothing like it. For many people my age, Star Wars is just one of those formative pillars of culture that (for us) is hardwired and just hearing the music is enough to make me feel like a kid again!

So, of course it is exciting for many to see this game develop and it DOES seem on solid ground with Bioware etc. I was damn impressed by the Deceived video... just an excellent mix of lore and fast-paced action of very high quality.

You really cannot blame us for getting just a bit caught up... and hey, that's part of the enjoyment of something, the looking forward to bit, and the getting excited about it bit. So it is not stupidity, even if it does end in dissapointment for some.

Originally posted by Flummoxed

Originally posted by badgerer

But would anyone have paid a monthly sub to play Neverwinter Nights?

 

*raises hand* - with professional quality content advancing the storylines each month, hell yes.

Eventually we're gonna come full circle and get back to the one player / story driven mmorpg formula that got it right -

Asheron's Call.

Me too probably.

The kinds of games Bioware makes tend to have conclusions for their lead characters (sometimes in the sequel). I suppose you have to conclude storylines to avoid your subject turning into a soapopera. How will this work with their MMO? Will you get to the end... and keep going?

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by Drachasor

 Being awesome should require that you BE AWESOME.

 

and that's where we keep running into problems.

Personally I agree...if you want to BE awesome, you should have to put the effort into actually kicking ass. Unfortunately what happens is the tools that shouldn't even be playing MMOs since they obviously don't have the time to do so ( "wah! I can only play an hour a day!! Wahh!!") don't think it's FAIR that just because they can't put in the effort, they can't kick ass.

IMO, you should reap what you sow. If you have time to put into the game, and therefore become better at the game, and have a stronger character, then obviously you should be stronger and more skillful (read: "better") than a player who only plays an hour per day.

Sadly, in an effort to get the sub $$ of these lamers with no time on their hands, the rest of us get buggered straight up the shitter by having our games dumbed down to the point where these slackers can compete.

So in essence, EVERYONE, with NO effort, becomes the "uber-l33t epic chosen one of awesomeness", which means that in realisty NO ONE can excel.

And before one of these "people", who I'm sure are lurking here even now jumps in with a recycled "e-peen" comment...let me just state that it's not about "e-peen", it's about having your efforts MEAN something....getting out what you put in. It's about the satisfaction of having hard work pay off, and the pride that comes with having accomplished something great. 

But that's something that these people...who expect everythng to be handed to them on a platter... simply wouldn't understand.

I think you have said everything I want to say about this causal "We dont have time to play!!! Wah!! Dumb the games down so we can reach the end in a couple of months and cry about having nothing to do cause everything was handed to you on a platter crowd. Its getting old, why should all MMOs be drawn down to the simple masses that think that the world revolves around THIER precious time? So what that only have a 1hr a day to play ? Then really you dont need to be playing MMOs then cause even 1hr of game time even for a single player game wont get you anywhere, time to move on to another recreational activity then, I also love the comments about people saying cause people have more playtime they have no life ?

My question is this what does someone that have a life do? Watch Tv? Doesnt meant you have a life.. Have Kids? Doesnt mean you have a life... Watch or Play Sports? Doesnt mean you have a life... excuses are what they are .. so the MMORPG genre has to be dumbed down for society just like TV the same people that watch the shite they keep on the air (ex. American Idol, Crime Dramas, Reality TV, Sitcoms) so its come to this the laziness and the greed has finally dominated the MMO indistry and the little people with no time with big dreams of being uber and iconic but not put any effort or spine into it. Its all about... "I DONT HAVE TIME TO PLAY THIS GAME BUT GIMME GIMEE GIMEE!!!" instant gratification generation. Its pathetic to no ends thankfully there are developers out there who look over this mass market of incompetents.

Originally posted by firefly2003

 

I think you have said everything I want to say about this causal "We dont have time to play!!! Wah!! Dumb the games down so we can reach the end in a couple of months and cry about having nothing to do cause everything was handed to you on a platter crowd. Its getting old, why should all MMOs be drawn down to the simple masses that think that the world revolves around THIER precious time? So what that only have a 1hr a day to play ? Then really you dont need to be playing MMOs then cause even 1hr of game time even for a single player game wont get you anywhere, time to move on to another recreational activity then, I also love the comments about people saying cause people have more playtime they have no life ?

My question is this what does someone that have a life do? Watch Tv? Doesnt meant you have a life.. Have Kids? Doesnt mean you have a life... Watch or Play Sports? Doesnt mean you have a life... excuses are what they are .. so the MMORPG genre has to be dumbed down for society just like TV the same people that watch the shite they keep on the air (ex. American Idol, Crime Dramas, Reality TV, Sitcoms) so its come to this the laziness and the greed has finally dominated the MMO indistry and the little people with no time with big dreams of being uber and iconic but not put any effort or spine into it. Its all about... "I DONT HAVE TIME TO PLAY THIS GAME BUT GIMME GIMEE GIMEE!!!" instant gratification generation. Its pathetic to no ends thankfully there are developers out there who look over this mass market of incompetents.

See, I kinda agree and disagree with you here.

Look, playing 80 hours standing in the same tedious dungeon killing the same things over and over to level doesn't mean you're a more serious player. Mostly, it means you're an idiot. Instant gratification is a bad idea, but so is mind-numblingly slowing things down just to appeal to so-called "hardcore" gamers.  Look, I have a full time job, hobbies outside of MMOs, and (gasp! no way!) a girlfriend who I'd very soon like to marry.  I don't want to be playing for years to get to the "good" content that developers dangle at the end of a long advanvement grind. And yes, note I don't use the word level. Just because your character doesn't have a level doesn't mean you aren't grinding somewhere. The numbers just show up in a different spot. So yes, in 3-6 months of playing a few hours here and there, I'd like to feel like I progressed. I don't want to hit the end of teh gamezorz and be like "now what?", but I also don't want to feel like I have years of playing like this before I get somewhere. There has to be a medium.

Back to this game..I'm hopeful. The story-driven, decision-tree quests that change the face of the mission sound good. Of course, a ton of other MMOs have promised me this and failed.

On the dark side (ha-ha), hey look, it's another game with two galvanizhed "good" and "evil" sides. And classes divided between them. Again, they're claiming I can work my butt off to make my trooper "evil" or my bounty hunter "good". But why should I? Why polarize it? Why does it have to be another Horde v. Alliance, Order v. Chaos scenario?  Also, the classes are already starting to sound very atypical. The trooper is a semi-tank type with emphasis on heavy weapons and flexibility. BH's are trickester types, smuggelrs are rogues, god help us when the jedi come out.

And that's another concern. Everyone and their damn inbred cousin is gonna be a jedi, unless jedi are so weak that all the fun is taken out. They can't ever be in any SW game without throwing it out of whack.

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by firefly2003

 

I think you have said everything I want to say about this causal "We dont have time to play!!! Wah!! Dumb the games down so we can reach the end in a couple of months and cry about having nothing to do cause everything was handed to you on a platter crowd. Its getting old, why should all MMOs be drawn down to the simple masses that think that the world revolves around THIER precious time? So what that only have a 1hr a day to play ? Then really you dont need to be playing MMOs then cause even 1hr of game time even for a single player game wont get you anywhere, time to move on to another recreational activity then, I also love the comments about people saying cause people have more playtime they have no life ?

My question is this what does someone that have a life do? Watch Tv? Doesnt meant you have a life.. Have Kids? Doesnt mean you have a life... Watch or Play Sports? Doesnt mean you have a life... excuses are what they are .. so the MMORPG genre has to be dumbed down for society just like TV the same people that watch the shite they keep on the air (ex. American Idol, Crime Dramas, Reality TV, Sitcoms) so its come to this the laziness and the greed has finally dominated the MMO indistry and the little people with no time with big dreams of being uber and iconic but not put any effort or spine into it. Its all about... "I DONT HAVE TIME TO PLAY THIS GAME BUT GIMME GIMEE GIMEE!!!" instant gratification generation. Its pathetic to no ends thankfully there are developers out there who look over this mass market of incompetents.

 

See, I kinda agree and disagree with you here.

 

Look, playing 80 hours standing in the same tedious dungeon killing the same things over and over to level doesn't mean you're a more serious player. Mostly, it means you're an idiot. Instant gratification is a bad idea, but so is mind-numblingly slowing things down just to appeal to so-called "hardcore" gamers.  Look, I have a full time job, hobbies outside of MMOs, and (gasp! no way!) a girlfriend who I'd very soon like to marry.  I don't want to be playing for years to get to the "good" content that developers dangle at the end of a long advanvement grind. And yes, note I don't use the word level. Just because your character doesn't have a level doesn't mean you aren't grinding somewhere. The numbers just show up in a different spot. So yes, in 3-6 months of playing a few hours here and there, I'd like to feel like I progressed. I don't want to hit the end of teh gamezorz and be like "now what?", but I also don't want to feel like I have years of playing like this before I get somewhere. There has to be a medium.

 

Back to this game..I'm hopeful. The story-driven, decision-tree quests that change the face of the mission sound good. Of course, a ton of other MMOs have promised me this and failed.

 

On the dark side (ha-ha), hey look, it's another game with two galvanizhed "good" and "evil" sides. And classes divided between them. Again, they're claiming I can work my butt off to make my trooper "evil" or my bounty hunter "good". But why should I? Why polarize it? Why does it have to be another Horde v. Alliance, Order v. Chaos scenario?  Also, the classes are already starting to sound very atypical. The trooper is a semi-tank type with emphasis on heavy weapons and flexibility. BH's are trickester types, smuggelrs are rogues, god help us when the jedi come out.

 

And that's another concern. Everyone and their damn inbred cousin is gonna be a jedi, unless jedi are so weak that all the fun is taken out. They can't ever be in any SW game without throwing it out of whack.

 

 

 

Out of the 200 members of my guild who are transfering over to this game if it turns out well, only 40 said they wanted to be jedi over the other confirmed classes.  We will have to see when game goes live.

I just wanna say..."Awesome, and good luck with this promising MMO :)"  I without a doubt will be paying attention to this game!

I have every respect for Bioware and I have no doubt that they will be able to create a fully story-driven online RPG in which a large number of people interact in the same gamespace. Whether that's something worth achieving, though, I have my doubts.

I actually come to MMORPGs specifically to get away from the tyranny of storyline. I've been reading fiction of all kinds, every day of my life since I was maybe six years old. I've been watching movies almost as long. Nearly half a century of narrative. I love it, but I already get enough of it.

I see MMO play as analagous both to craft hobbies like wood-carving or knitting, where many repetetive actions eventually build up to a completed object, and with open-ended activities like hiking or travelling. I don't really see MMOs being closely connected to the narrative form.

Single-player RPGs offer a fairly limited, awkward means of delivering a narrative. Bioware do that as well as anyone, but in my opinion even the very best CRPG ever made only approximates the narrative impact of a fair-to-middling movie or novel. Having to go through on-screen gaming activities (fighting, sneaking, puzzle-solving etc) in order to unlock each fragment of storyline doesn't seem to me to add anything, and often detracts. Surely it's better for narrative simply to turn the page or let the movie roll on?

In other MMOs that incorporate strong storylines (LotRO being the most obvious example), my personal choice has been to avoid the storyline elements as much as possible. If SW:TOR turns out to be so story-driven that avoiding the narrative is impractical, I'll probably end up just avoiding the whole game. Which would be a shame, as i'm certain it will be a new bench-mark in quality for online gaming.

Originally posted by Bhagpuss

I have every respect for Bioware and I have no doubt that they will be able to create a fully story-driven online RPG in which a large number of people interact in the same gamespace. Whether that's something worth achieving, though, I have my doubts.

I actually come to MMORPGs specifically to get away from the tyranny of storyline. I've been reading fiction of all kinds, every day of my life since I was maybe six years old. I've been watching movies almost as long. Nearly half a century of narrative. I love it, but I already get enough of it.

I see MMO play as analagous both to craft hobbies like wood-carving or knitting, where many repetetive actions eventually build up to a completed object, and with open-ended activities like hiking or travelling. I don't really see MMOs being closely connected to the narrative form.

Single-player RPGs offer a fairly limited, awkward means of delivering a narrative. Bioware do that as well as anyone, but in my opinion even the very best CRPG ever made only approximates the narrative impact of a fair-to-middling movie or novel. Having to go through on-screen gaming activities (fighting, sneaking, puzzle-solving etc) in order to unlock each fragment of storyline doesn't seem to me to add anything, and often detracts. Surely it's better for narrative simply to turn the page or let the movie roll on?

In other MMOs that incorporate strong storylines (LotRO being the most obvious example), my personal choice has been to avoid the storyline elements as much as possible. If SW:TOR turns out to be so story-driven that avoiding the narrative is impractical, I'll probably end up just avoiding the whole game. Which would be a shame, as i'm certain it will be a new bench-mark in quality for online gaming.

I didn't want to say as much because I figured it would be -that- unpopular, but since you have, I have to totally agree with you.

Isn't one of the biggest problem in theme-park mmos the issue of a million Chosen Ones? A story that puts you at the centre of the universe, and then does the same for everyone else, is more likely to breed sociopathic entitlement issues than a community of diverse interests.

I do not want a story in an mmo either. The games that I've enjoyed the most are the ones that have had the least.

Sorry, but I couldn't help but laugh at this one. Since when is anything you do in a video game considered "Hard Work"? I suppose if you are designing/debugging the code, creating graphics, programming AI or something along those lines I would agree with you.  Making a super-duper character does not constitute hard work, it means an individual has alot of spare time on his/her hands.

http://vhil.stanford.edu/pubs/2006/yee-psychology-mmorpg.pdf

Frankly, I will hold my opinion untill its on the shelves. It's much too easy too impress the masses of E3 if you ask me. There have been many MMO's that all fallen by the wayside that at E3 everyone predicted to be the next WoW Killer.

The more I read about this game the more I realize that it's going to be one massive theme park from start to finish.  I love the idea of voice acting and the dialogue having an impact on my character but I can also see that the game doesn't offer anything that I won't get from buying Mass Effect 2 and saving the $60 for TOR plus the subscription fees. 

Originally posted by Bhagpuss

I have every respect for Bioware and I have no doubt that they will be able to create a fully story-driven online RPG in which a large number of people interact in the same gamespace. Whether that's something worth achieving, though, I have my doubts.

I actually come to MMORPGs specifically to get away from the tyranny of storyline. I've been reading fiction of all kinds, every day of my life since I was maybe six years old. I've been watching movies almost as long. Nearly half a century of narrative. I love it, but I already get enough of it.

I see MMO play as analagous both to craft hobbies like wood-carving or knitting, where many repetetive actions eventually build up to a completed object, and with open-ended activities like hiking or travelling. I don't really see MMOs being closely connected to the narrative form.

Single-player RPGs offer a fairly limited, awkward means of delivering a narrative. Bioware do that as well as anyone, but in my opinion even the very best CRPG ever made only approximates the narrative impact of a fair-to-middling movie or novel. Having to go through on-screen gaming activities (fighting, sneaking, puzzle-solving etc) in order to unlock each fragment of storyline doesn't seem to me to add anything, and often detracts. Surely it's better for narrative simply to turn the page or let the movie roll on?

In other MMOs that incorporate strong storylines (LotRO being the most obvious example), my personal choice has been to avoid the storyline elements as much as possible. If SW:TOR turns out to be so story-driven that avoiding the narrative is impractical, I'll probably end up just avoiding the whole game. Which would be a shame, as i'm certain it will be a new bench-mark in quality for online gaming.

I think you just put into words what was on my mind but I couldn't get it out.  If anything I am really looking for the MMO that I play to allow me to create my own story and history.  This is one of the reasons I enjoyed Eve Online as much as I did.  Your "history" and "story" was something that you had a direct hand in creating.  You had the background of your chosen race and after that you created the rest.  If you added in other players you got the chance to create a group story.  It doesn't sound to me like this is going to be the case in TOR.  As you stated, your questing/leveling etc. will unlock your already pre-written story.  We don't know anything about end game yet so I'm waiting/watching what they say about end game as this could be the decider for me.  If there's nothing in the game that allows me the freedom to create a story of my own then I have no desire or need to play the game.

I quit playing MMO's a couple weeks ago, and I rarely check these boards. The MMO genre has grown stale, and the community is comprised of people I probably wouldn't even see or talk to in real life. But I've been a Bioware fan since KoToR came out and have played all of their games since. They've always done a good job telling a story, and making me feel like my choices made a difference. So I'm definitely looking forward to this game, and it doesn't bother me one bit that I can solo the entire story. That's coming from someone who used to group 100% of the time in DAoC in its early years, because the community was actually worth talking too.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by BarCrow

Originally posted by Loke666

Gah, why didn't he wrote more? Did he see how many levels there were (if any)? How did combat work? could you customize your characters skills and attributes?

The story is of course what is most important in any Bioware game but that's no reason to not talking about the other stuff too.

To quote Sisters of mercy "I want more"!

 

SISTERS OF MERCY...personal story...imo...I once dated a girl who claimed she dated the original drummer from Sisters of Mercy. She even knew his name was 'Doktor Avalanche"...but apparently knew little else. If you are familiar with the band....you know why that is funny. We didn't date very long. She must have seen something shinier than me.   Anyway....why does ths game already have such adamant doom-speak going on....I understand being apprehensive..but  I'm so tired of the floodland of negativity...just seems to be a slight case of overbombing.

Most likely because we have been getting, in the opinion of many, lackluster games with no real "keep players around for more than a few months" type production value over the last several years. There are quite a few folks, notably Rich Vogel and Gordon Walton, who are key players with the development of this game who have verbally championed the current template for making MMOs. Add to it the verbage they used when this game was announced ("iconic" was dropped alot; the same notorious word used for the NGE) and the "oh by the way" the "other MMOish features" are mentioned (and that Vogel admitted he didn't want crafting in at all initially until some junior dev pleaded to him to let him try out his idea that promised not to get in the way of being iconic or heroic)...

Well, it should be easy to see why not everyone is "gaga" over TOR. As far as being unique goes with respect to character, it'll be hardly the case. Sure, players get choices, but per each class at each "choice point", there are only a limited number of options. Exhausting all possible "combinations" per a given class would most likely take not more than a couple thousand people. That and from what they have spoken about it does sound pretty much that you follow the storyline put before you and if you want to do something different you role another class. Personally, I'm not an altoholic so that doesn't sound enticing to me at all. I'd much rather have a wealth of very detailed, very robust to the point they could be considered games within the game options to choose from and available to the character race/class I want to be in SW.

*shrug* To each their own.

Well I'm not bothered by it at all. Look at the type of people who raid. The serious raiders that get anywhere spend their lives raiding. It's an obsessive and unhealthy life-style, in which I want no part of. The type of people that you'd likely not associate with in real life, or would want to rely on at work, or to watch your back in a war. I prefer healthy individuals, who are responsible. The old MMO formula didn't promote those types of people, so you're left playing with dysfunctional people, which doesn't exactly enhance your own life outside the game. PvPers are even worse, because not only are they obsessive, but they're also overly confrontational, rude, and immature. Crafters, especially in SWG were never a problem. They tend to be the more mature types, maybe because it takes patience to stick with crafting. But anyways, my point is that the majority of people playing MMO's are not the type of people a healthy individual would really want to associate with and the reason the genre attracts those types of people is because of the addictive and obsessive natures it takes to succeed in those games. So if Bioware is making a SPG online, with the ability to party up and play with others through their stories, that's good enough for me. That allows people to play through a good story at their own pace, without any pressures to stay in the game longer than is healthy. You also aren't exposed to the degenerates that play in this genre.

I know I sound pretty critical of the community, but a real unbiased analysis of the personalities you have playing the genre will prove that I'm right. There are always exceptions, but think about how many respectable and responsible people who are socially and professionally successful, and happy, that play these games and are successful at them. Meaning, they are able to see everything the game has to offer. You probably won't find many, because most of the people who play in the genre...oh forget it. I'm just going to rant on and get myself in trouble. To each their own, like you said, but I don't see this as a bad thing.