Ok right ahead: I am very serious with this, and I dont intend to provoke you, but this is the result of weeks and months of thinking and following news and info, and I would really be interested in your (thoughtful) critique.

Here comes the thesis first: Bioware is either deceiting themselves about what a success SWTOR can be, OR they are deceiving us about the nature of the game.

Now to the analysis. I will try to keep it a brief as possible. I hope I dont create loopholes by shortage, but I may add to it, if some parts are unclear.

I.) Bioware, EA and LucasArts always emphasize "story". In fact we have not heard of a single gameplay sphere any detail other than that. There is that suspicious fact we hear NO other "usually expected" detail whatsoever, now for a long time. Which is no argument in itself, yes, just a hint. The central point here is: they always emphasized, that ALL of SWTOR is story driven. ALL is heroic and there is NO usual grind, no "un-heroic" battle like "kill 20 rats". Point 1.

II.) They have hinted every class has its planet. With the map circling around we have 16 planets, that makes 8 class bound planet. So 50% granted solo game. Or at best intra-class co-op. Tho why should you when its "your class story". Not waterproof, but a measure of balance.

III.) We know we have combat companions, and we know Bioware said, the game can be entirely soloed. Fact! Now what is crystal clear to me: the easier quests are, the more soloable, the less grouping happens. Grouping is what happens when people need to group. Now sure the rise of soloing can be seen. But the fact is, most people who can solo will solo. With NPC companion. Now the life-force of any MMO is it's community. Communites form through grouping for a large part. By shared experiences. But from my POV, when everything CAN be soloed, most WILL solo it. Now if you are busy, busy with your story, why share it, when a NPC does it? Communities are formed by and large through the "hunting party experience", when a team overcomes an obstacle a single person could not. The rise of solo-friendlyness has so far seriously damaged the community spirit in MMOs.

IV.) Now no matter how good your stories are, I just dont see it that a decend number of players stays in a MMO for more than 3-4 months. I just do not see it. Taking the not small playtime per day of the average MMO gamer, I am sure most will be through the story 2 times by then at LEAST. I am sorry if I have to burst your bubble, but a game merely driven by story wont hold people alone a long time. 6 months is the max. time.

V.) The ONLY thing proven to keep gamers a longer time, is repetitive tasks, like it or not. Just going out hunting stuff. (Not to speak of the fact that many feel "mindless grinding" as something relaxing, actually!) You just would have to create 100+ planets with story to equal the play-time amount a MMO like WOW or EQ2 or GW can muster by grind. Grind, meaning "not heroic, simple, repetitive task", which is not fitting into the category of "heroic story". You know, the usual type of MMO quests.

Now the bottom line and conclusion is: when EA paid a hefty sum for Bioware, they sure expected a MMO with a monthly fee keeping gamers a LONG time, for in no other realistic way Bioware would be worth so much money. That would suggest SWTOR DOES HAVE some long lasting game qualities, which would clearly say, that story is just "one part among many others", which also would mean we have been deceived about SWTOR being "all heroic". There WOULD be the proverbial "20 rats" to kill. The trash mobs, the fedex quests, the faction grind - you name it - everything any normal MMO has. Truth be told, I personally am HOPING this is so. The other way would be, Bioware deceives itself, when they think a game with story alone has the weight to keep gamers for a longer period of time, no matter how interesting you can make a story. it would NEVER ever work. MMO gamers are used to some things, and only some things are known to create communities. And only MMOs with communities can survive a longer time.

So my worst fear ironically is Bioware would be honest. What I fear is, that everything is heroic story, people play it with one or two classes through and then be done. What that LucasArts guy hinted, that there would be a vast untapped potential of single player gamers who never played a MMO so far, hints this may indeed be their hope, and I just implore them to NOT believe that! The MMO market is not expanded into single player gamers anymore! Period. I have no proof for this last assumption, but my strongest feeling of truth. A MMo gamer is a kind of person, a lifestyle, and the WOW model tapped what was left by mechanics we dont need to discuss, but which worked, apparently.

I am sorry for the long text and complex thought. I know, it may be difficult to follow, and I hope you answer civil and fair. It is a theory, nothing more, but I fear when they are serious with their idea that EVERYTHING is heroic, and can be soloed, it would no bode well. I mean it could still be a very good game. Thats not the point. But in no way in hell it will bring back that sort of money EA paid nor would that form a years lasting community in the game.

So, challange my analysis.

I know it's a bit unfair to post one liners after such a long post, but don't you think it's a bit early to speculate on the nature of the gameplay?

Also, lets say you're Bioware and you're going head on with Blizzard, a company that is been known to take good ideas from other games, improve upon them and adapt into their games. Are you willing to share what you think is a different approach in MMOs with the public and risk getting mirrored?

I'm neither pro or against the game. I will simply wait to experience the end result. But assuming you understand that we can only speculate at this point, those speculation can lead us to assumptions that are way off what's really going on.

Originally posted by Elikal

Ok right ahead: I am very serious with this, and I dont intend to provoke you, but this is the result of weeks and months of thinking and following news and info, and I would really be interested in your (thoughtful) critique.

Here comes the thesis first: Bioware is either deceiting themselves about what a success SWTOR can be, OR they are deceiving us about the nature of the game.

 

Now to the analysis. I will try to keep it a brief as possible. I hope I dont create loopholes by shortage, but I may add to it, if some parts are unclear.

I.) Bioware, EA and LucasArts always emphasize "story". In fact we have not heard of a single gameplay sphere any detail other than that. There is that suspicious fact we hear NO other "usually expected" detail whatsoever, now for a long time. Which is no argument in itself, yes, just a hint. The central point here is: they always emphasized, that ALL of SWTOR is stroy driven. ALL is heroic and there is NO usual grind, no "un-heroic" battle like "kill 20 rats". Point 1.

The beginning of the bounty hunter demo showed the bounty hunter doing a random mission to kill some guys outside the hutt palace... the interviewer said the npc's still acted like storyline npc's but it was in a non-instanced zone.

II.) They have hinted every class has its planet. With the map circling around we have 16 planets, that maks 8 class bound planet. So 50% granted solo game. Or at best intra-class co-op. Tho why should you when its "your class story". Not waterproof, but a measure of balance.

Bioware has mentioned that that is only the starter planet, any class can join any other class, and that a few storyline missions will be shared between 2-3 classes before they veer off in their prospective directions again.

III.) We know we have combat companions, and we know Bioware said, the game can be entirely soloed. Fact! Now what is crystal clear to me: the easier quests are, the more soloable, the less grouping happens. Grouping is what happens when people need to group. Now sure the rise of soloing can be seen. But the fact is, most people who can solo will solo. With NPC companion. Now the life-force of any MMO is it's community. Communites form through grouping for a large part. By shared experiences. But from my POV, when everything CAN be soloed, most WILL solo it. Now if you are busy, busy with your story, why share it, when a NPC does it? Communities are formed by and large through the "hunting party experience", when a team overcomes an obstacle a single person could not. The rise of solo-friendlyness has so far seriously damaged the community spirit in MMOs.

I dislike having to find a group everytime I want to play.  Bioware has also said in an inverview that TOR will have all the basics of modern mmo's, including PvP, crafting, and raid dungeons.  PVP and raiding is not a single player incident.

IV.) Now no matter how good your stories are, I just dont see it that a decend number of players stays in a MMO for more than 3-4 months. I just do not see it. Taking the not small playtime per day of the average MMO gamer, I am sure most will be through the story 2 times by then at LEAST. I am sorry if I have to burst your bubble, but a game merely driven by story wont hold people alone a long time. 6 months is the max. time.

Again, PvP, raiding, and who knows what else, plus any free release content.

V.) The ONLY thing proven to keep gamers a longer time, is repetitive tasks, like it or not. Just going out hunting stuff. You just would have to create 100+ planets with story to equal the play-time amount a MMO like WOW or EQ2 or GW can muster by grind. Grind, meaning "not heroic, simple, repetitive task", which is not fitting into the category of "heroic story". You know, the usual type of MMO quests.

Ever played KOTOR???  VERY time consuming for a single player game, plus Bioware has said every class has mutiple hundreds of hours worth of storyline gameplay, and again, just because they've mentioned story being important doesn't mean there will be nothing BUT story.

Now the bottom line and conclusion is: when EA paid a hefty sum for Bioware, they sure expected a MMO with a monthly fee keeping gamers a LONG time, for in no other realistic way Bioware would be worth so much money. That would suggest SWTOR DOES HAVE some long lasting game qualities, which would clearly say, that story is just "one part among many others", which also would mean we have been deceived about SWTOR being "all heroic". There WOULD be the proverbial "20 rats" to kill. The trash mobs, the fedex quests, the faction grind - you name it - everything any normal MMO has. Truth be told, I personally am HOPING this is so. The other way would be, Bioware deceives itself, when they think a game with story alone has the weight to keep gamers for a longer period of time, no matter how interesting you can make a story. it would NEVER ever work. MMO gamers are used to some things, and only some things are known to create communities. And only MMOs with communities can survive a longer time.

Well if they play it off like KOTOR, then those "kill 20" quests would also feel immersive, because you'd be talking to an npc, having choices what to say to him, and who knows, maybe even these quests can have alignment possibilities.  And they haven't said "Everything is heroic..."

What I fear is, that everything is heroic story, people play it with one or two classes through and then be done. What that LucasArts guy hinted, that there would be a vast untapped potential of single player gamers who never played a MMO so far, hints this may indeed be their hope, and I just implore them to NOT believe that! The MMO market is not expanded into single player gamers anymore! Period. I have no proof for this last assumption, but my strongest feeling of truth. A MMo gamer is a kind of person, a lifestyle, and the WOW model tapped what was left by mechanics we dont need to discuss, but which worked, apparently.

I am sorry for the long text and complex thought. I know, it may be difficult to follow, and I hope you answer civil and fair. It is a theory, nothing more, but I fear when they are serious with their idea that EVERYTHING is heroic, and can be soloed, it would no bode well. I mean it could still be a very good game. Thats not the point. But in no way in hell it will bring back that sort of money EA paid nor would that form a years lasting community in the game.

 

So, challange my analysis.

Everything anyone says so far is heresay due to the lack of information on this game.  Who's to say it won't have a very involved PvP system at end game that you can choose to join or not, but which gives PvP only rewards???  Who's to say a raid system to challenge any PvE game out there won't be in place???  They've already stated that both PvP and raids are, in fact, going to be in game.

I think Bioware is using their "story" selling point to hype the game's most unique feature, an in depth storyline mode with consequences based on your actions, in which your character will evolve based on your decisions, not it's only feature.

Originally posted by Elikal

So, challange my analysis.

An analysis based on pure speculation = pure speculation.

You know what? What may be different about the stories in TOR is this…. I think they are aiming to really provoke emotion in these stories to steer your decisions in this game. Wouldn't surprise me if they convinced the docs to hire a psychologist, since they hinted at a certain type of “research, and thought study” going into this game well before we heard it was TOR. I thought that was strange when I heard it.

What if there were at least a few parts of your story arc where you go "WTF?" And you may even feel sadness, happiness, anger, fear, humor in an MMO story. When is the last time you felt that type of emotion in an MMO? Or any game for that mater? Was it as good as it could have been? Perhaps playing a BioWare game? Imagine the possibilities. It’ll be interesting to see if they pull this off. If you get pas the mechanical aspects of game grinding and pew pewing you may actually feel immersed.

That’s the problem with gamers these days, they never take enough time to slow down and actually enjoy a game and its plot the way it was meant to be enjoyed, unless you are forced, or steered. BioWare will force you to slow down by making decisions in the game mater because they can actually effect you long term.
 

Originally posted by Xasapis

I know it's a bit unfair to post one liners after such a long post, but don't you think it's a bit early to speculate on the nature of the gameplay?

Also, lets say you're Bioware and you're going head on with Blizzard, a company that is been known to take good ideas from other games, improve upon them and adapt into their games. Are you willing to share what you think is a different approach in MMOs with the public and risk getting mirrored?

I'm neither pro or against the game. I will simply wait to experience the end result. But assuming you understand that we can only speculate at this point, those speculation can lead us to assumptions that are way off what's really going on.

I agree, this reminds me of like pulling out meat to defrost it that you dont intend to eat for another year.

All we can do at this point is wait and see, but in all honesty, I also speculate that due to the manner in which crafting and raiding have been touched upon, SW:TOR will be nothing like what the fanbois are anticipating. My current view is that we are, in fact, looking at a more casual oriented, individual experience than a core/hardcore, communal experience. I think most of us who are eagerly awaiting more information know this. Admitting it, is another matter.

Originally posted by Urael

All we can do at this point is wait and see, but in all honesty, I also speculate that due to the manner in which crafting and raiding have been touched upon, SW:TOR will be nothing like what the fanbois are anticipating. My current view is that we are, in fact, looking at a more casual oriented, individual experience than a core/hardcore, communal experience. I think most of us who are eagerly awaiting more information know this. Admitting it, is another matter.

I agree. Unless they have class storylines 100% group friendly(IE I can quest with my buddy) it is really going to put a lot of people off to the game. I don't want to quest for 5 hours, get to group content(finally) then HOPE my buddy is also at the group content in his story line.  Then to get 1-2 hours  of grouping only to find out its another 10 hours to get more group content!

BTW anyone saying the game will have TONS of content needs to realize that when Bioware tabulates the amount of content they have they are counting ALL classes not just one. So while they might have more content than all their other games, divide that by 8. Sorry but I don't find having to level a new character to get content as content....it is grinding which they said they wouldn't have. 

Also people need to realize we aren't asking for FORCED grouping where you need a group to level. No, we are asking for the ability to group with friends/family/etc while we level because it is ALWAYS funner that way.  If we are forced to do our solo story without grouping it will really ruin the point of an MMO for me.

I'm really getting tired of you grouping fanatics and your baselss assumptions about human behavior.  There are two popular games out there that offer a substantial amount of solo content, World of Warcraft and City of Heroes.  Yet there is a lot of grouping going on in these games even though it isn't forced.  People group, solo, craft, raid, socialize and what not and it's their choice to do so.  Stop tyring to pass off grouping as the only legitimate and worthwhile play style. 

Sometimes I get the strong impression that the grouper's agenda is to squash any ability to solo or at least relegate it to a worthless activity.  Stop blaming soloers for your insecurities.  Bioware intends to have a very casual friendly, solo friendly game. Stop griping about it and move on to a game that caters to you.

By the way, deceit implies false information was purposefully released and that is definitely not the case.  They can release game play details whenever the heck they want to and are not beholden to anyone on when that will be.  They have backed up every deatail released so far and your conspiracy theory is completely unfounded.

Originally posted by Distaste

Originally posted by Urael

All we can do at this point is wait and see, but in all honesty, I also speculate that due to the manner in which crafting and raiding have been touched upon, SW:TOR will be nothing like what the fanbois are anticipating. My current view is that we are, in fact, looking at a more casual oriented, individual experience than a core/hardcore, communal experience. I think most of us who are eagerly awaiting more information know this. Admitting it, is another matter.

I agree. Unless they have class storylines 100% group friendly(IE I can quest with my buddy) it is really going to put a lot of people off to the game. I don't want to quest for 5 hours, get to group content(finally) then HOPE my buddy is also at the group content in his story line.  Then to get 1-2 hours  of grouping only to find out its another 10 hours to get more group content!

BTW anyone saying the game will have TONS of content needs to realize that when Bioware tabulates the amount of content they have they are counting ALL classes not just one. So while they might have more content than all their other games, divide that by 8. Sorry but I don't find having to level a new character to get content as content....it is grinding which they said they wouldn't have. 

Also people need to realize we aren't asking for FORCED grouping where you need a group to level. No, we are asking for the ability to group with friends/family/etc while we level because it is ALWAYS funner that way.  If we are forced to do our solo story without grouping it will really ruin the point of an MMO for me.

You people really need to start researching a bit if you want to keep pointing fingers.  The storylines ARE group friendly, there is even a mechanic in place to let all party members influence conversations at the same time.  What don't you consider a grind???  Do you want to pay for the mmo and have your character at max level with all best items so you can say "I win???"  Every class has a different storyline that has the ability to stand on its own as its own game, if that's the only part of the game you ever played.  Is KOTOR grind all the way until the end????  No, its not.  Plus, I say again, raids and PvP have already been confirmed.  Please stop with the speculative posting without at least SOME research... please???

How bout no.

Originally posted by tillamook

You know what? What may be different about the stories in TOR is this…. I think they are aiming to really provoke emotion in these stories to steer your decisions in this game. Wouldn't surprise me if they convinced the docs to hire a psychologist, since they hinted at a certain type of “research, and thought study” going into this game well before we heard it was TOR. I thought that was strange when I heard it.

What if there were at least a few parts of your story arc where you go "WTF?" And you may even feel sadness, happiness, anger, fear, humor in an MMO story. When is the last time you felt that type of emotion in an MMO? Or any game for that mater? Was it as good as it could have been? Perhaps playing a BioWare game? Imagine the possibilities. It’ll be interesting to see if they pull this off. If you get pas the mechanical aspects of game grinding and pew pewing you may actually feel immersed.

That’s the problem with gamers these days, they never take enough time to slow down and actually enjoy a game and its plot the way it was meant to be enjoyed, unless you are forced, or steered. BioWare will force you to slow down by making decisions in the game mater because they can actually effect you long term.
 

Q...F...E.

Very well said Tillamook.

I'm going to take my time and enjoy every bit of this adventure where ever it takes me. The ones that are going to miss the entire point of this game are the one's rushing to get to "the end" for some magical non-existant reward only to realize they bypassed the real reward of the game, the journey there.

Being 100% voice acted may slow down the pace too. You may be able to skip dialogue, but to your own detriment. Instead of reading a wall of text, which so few do, you listen to the story. Should, theoretically, make the game last longer.

I agree we know too little about TOR yet to freak out about it's viability. I think it will appeal to my playstyle. And, like every game, some people will love it, some hate it. But claiming it will fail is WAY too premature. Let's all step back, take deep breaths, and get some perspective.

I think I just spent a little too much time reading this thread.

1) Story could in fact turn out to be something new and refreshing and it may be what we've been missing in our MMO's. While other MMO's have stories, they don't really worry about bigger pictures. Blizzard does have one big story that they progress, kind of, and you need to raid to see it through (in game), but the individual experience is a bunch of mini-stories that really don't delineate you from the next guy. And with the mini-stories, they're all disparate. TOR could be doing something new that makes it more enjoyable. Chances are, if you enjoyed the KotOR games, you will like this as they're modeling it after that experience.

2) I haven't done much reading on this and it's too preliminary for me to even think about it. It's kind of pointless this early, with such limited information.

3) This is an opinion point and subject to your personal feelings, not something that's worth spending any time debating.

4) COMPLETE conjecture. moving along...

5) No. Seriously. Just no.

Conclusions... are bad when posts are bad.

I'm convinced that TOR is going to be a Hellgate London with Star Wars skins.  With central hubs and instances spidering off them.  I hope I'm wrong, but that's what it sounds like from everything they've given us so far, which ain't much.

I read about 25% of your post and needed to comment before reading the rest....

You cant get away from the WoW model and do something new if you continue to use the same mechanics. WoW for example is all about grouping, grouping, grouping. No story,  just a group effort to do anything. Its heavily based on the Holy Trinity of MMO style. TOR is not. To do this, you must place the player at the center of the universe and allow him or her to become all that they can be in a massive story driven struggle. This is TOR is.

[quote]I am sorry if I have to burst your bubble, but a game merely driven by story wont hold people alone a long time. 6 months is the max. time.[/quote]

Where are you getting your fact on this from?  Nowhere because it has never been done before.

Originally posted by Elikal

So, challange my analysis.

Hmmm, so we are to refute your total guesses, speculation, and assumptions with other guesses, speculation and assumptions.......sounds like a complete waste of time.

I just think it's funny that we all clamor for "something different", then when a developer sets out to do it (a story driven MMO), we cry foul and ask for all the crap we rail against.  You even site needing "repetitive grinding/tasks" to keep MMO players around.......

*Sigh*

Originally posted by Horkathane

I read about 25% of your post and needed to comment before reading the rest....

You cant get away from the WoW model and do something new if you continue to use the same mechanics. WoW for example is all about grouping, grouping, grouping. No story,  just a group effort to do anything. Its heavily based on the Holy Trinity of MMO style. TOR is not. To do this, you must place the player at the center of the universe and allow him or her to become all that they can be in a massive story driven struggle. This is TOR is.

Huh? WoW you can play all the way through solo or group if you choose. Raid zones you need a group, yes, but not to reach max level. If you ever played EQ2 for any length of time you would know what a real grouping game is. SWG pre-cu you could play all the way through solo with the option to group, TOR you will be able to play all the way through solo, or group. That much they have confirmed.  As for the story in WoW, it's there, like in all MMOs, just not at the level BioWare is attempting.

Originally posted by tillamook

You know what? What may be different about the stories in TOR is this…. I think they are aiming to really provoke emotion in these stories to steer your decisions in this game. Wouldn't surprise me if they convinced the docs to hire a psychologist, since they hinted at a certain type of “research, and thought study” going into this game well before we heard it was TOR. I thought that was strange when I heard it.

What if there were at least a few parts of your story arc where you go "WTF?" And you may even feel sadness, happiness, anger, fear, humor in an MMO story. When is the last time you felt that type of emotion in an MMO? Or any game for that mater? Was it as good as it could have been? Perhaps playing a BioWare game? Imagine the possibilities. It’ll be interesting to see if they pull this off. If you get pas the mechanical aspects of game grinding and pew pewing you may actually feel immersed.

That’s the problem with gamers these days, they never take enough time to slow down and actually enjoy a game and its plot the way it was meant to be enjoyed, unless you are forced, or steered. BioWare will force you to slow down by making decisions in the game mater because they can actually effect you long term.
 

Well yes, I have little doubt it will be a great game. I was very moved by the stories and chars of KOTOR 1 & 2. Heck the comments of Kreia even made the ponder some RL ideas. The question is, is it a MMO which will last?

To be totally honest: I did NEVER like the idea to be always heroic. In SWG I spent a considerable time just as a Cantina Dancer, and gawd I had a blast as that. Also I find often I just dont have the concentration or energy to do serious questing and story, I just want to log in and go through some mindless hunt, where I dont have to concentrate on heroic stuff. I find the idea that an ENTIRE game is ALWAYS heroic and ALWAYS story quite.... strenuous, tbh. Am I really the only one there?

I can not overemphasize how much I believe in "forced grouping". I know I make myself unpopular these days with that, and I am really no apologet of EQ-UO days gaming. BUT: it is sure no coincidence that those days made legends, memories of grandeur which last, unlike the many cookie-cutter MMOs we have now. Honestly, I really doubt younger MMO gamers have ANYTHING remotely to the lifelong memories of gaming people from the hardcore era have. And in my very humble opinion, no grand story whatsoever can replace that. Grouping forms the fundament of communities. There is nothing that can fully replace that. People meet and gather at social city hubs to "go out hunting".

I have seen so often how difficult it is to find people for a group in say, EQ2, these days. When I am on a quest another person has not, why should he join me? Now if I have one of my Jedi quests - will it not be near impossible to find a group, if you prefer to group, unless you bring your BF or GF with you? THAT is one of my biggest concerns. People are egoistic. They group with you when they have something to gain. When you can use NPC groupies, won't that eradicate ANY inclination of people to join you? I have this nagging feeling we are going to feel quite lonely in this game, if it really turns out to be as they claim. Why should anyone join me, when I seek a group and not say "come on, you can do this quest as well alone".

This is my biggest concern, that I am by and large going to play it alone.

I love the willful ignorance of people when they fall in love with a game.  I saw the same thing happen with Conan (and several other past games), and it turned out to be an epic joke. Someone actually quoted how much EA payed to buy Bioware as a reason why this game cannot fail.  Hahaha.. now that is classic.

Id be interested to know what possible motivation Bioware would have for hiding gameplay mechanics such as crafting, resource gathering, RPG elements and mechanics, and other non-combat gameplay from us if these features exist in the game to any substantial level.  It seems to me that these elements are being purposfully downplayed in importance to the overall scope of the game.